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Message no. 1
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Charisma
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:59:24 -0600
Earlier I gave a possible explanation for low charisma among orcs and
trolls that public perception and intelligence were an influence. Forget I
ever said that. Here's my new opinion.

Man evolved to be a member of a social pack. There are certain
social aspects that are hardwired into us. My theory is that the
social template of trolls and orcs are more "primitive". Therefor
their social skills are inhibited (much like a person with a low IQ
trying to learn quantum physics). They're social creatures, but
they're a few steps lower on the ladder when it comes to charisma.
Note that any orc and/or troll has the capability to learn social
skills and increase his charisma. And there are always the
exceptions and some trolls/orcs have a natural charisma (just as
there are people that are real assholes).



-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 2
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Charisma
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 17:51:57 -0700 (PDT)
Okay, I was thinking last night. (I know, very
dangerous.) Charisma is a measure of your self-worth,
right? How confident and pleased you are with
yourself, etc. But it's also a measure of society's
views (possibly in a couple of ways - if society on
the whole likes elves, then elves will get a charisma
bonus, while if they find trolls unappealing, then
trolls will get a penalty - or, if you're TOLD that
you're unnattractive throughout your life, you'll
believe it, while if you're told you're beautiful,
you'll believe that too).

Shadowrun's rules could be looked at as a combination
of self-worth and the second way (you're told you're
ugly and nasty, so you think you're ugly and nasty).
That's why elves have a charisma bonus and trolls have
a penalty - elves BELIEVE they're beautiful, while
trolls BELIEVE they're ugly. If you don't believe in
yourself, you have a harder time dealing with people
and so you'll be less charismatic.

If you want to go with a self-worth/societal image
view though (society as a whole thinks elves are
beautiful and trolls are ugly, but that doesn't effect
how you feel about yourself), then here's something I
was thinking of.

Charisma bonuses and penalties are only applied under
certain circumstances. Most of the time you use the
flat Charisma value you assigned at creation (and may
have improved over time). The bonuses come into effect
only when dealing socially with people who find you
attractive - penalties are only effective when dealing
with people who find you unattractive. For instance,
elves only have their bonus when dealing with other
elves and humans and trolls don't suffer a penalty
when dealing with other trolls and orks. Improving
Charisma, Charisma-linked skills, summoning spirits
and all other uses of Charisma use the base value. So,
for example, take two characters, an elf and a troll.
Both put 5 points into Charisma at creation. Both are
mages. Both like talking to people (etiquette skill
5). When summoning spirits, they both use their based
Charisma of 5. When calculating the cost of their
etiquette skills, both use their base Charisma of 5.
When dealing socially with humans and elves, however,
the elf has a Charisma of 7, while the troll has a
Charisma of 3 (I'd use this in the game by averaging
the charisma and etiquette skills to give an effective
etiquette rating - however, a penalty to Charisma
can't give you a bonus to etiquette and a bonus can't
give you a penalty - e.g. if that troll only had
etiquette 1 and the average of Charisma 3 and
etiquette 1 is 2, he'd still have an etiquette of 1).
When dealing socially with dwarves, the troll again is
penalised to be at Charisma 3, while the elf is at his
base Charisma of 5. When dealing with orks and trolls,
both use their base Charisma of 5.

Costs for the races would need to be modified - I'd
suggest that if you'd normally have a bonus the cost
would be reduced by 2 points per +1 to Charisma (so
elves, with a +2 to Charisma, would cost 6 points) and
a normal penalty increases the cost by 2 points per +1
(so trolls, with a -2 to Charisma, would cost 14
points). Obviously, this could only be used with the
building points system.

Suggestions? Criticisms?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 3
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Charisma
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 12:11:57 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 10:54 AM
Subject: Charisma


>Okay, I was thinking last night. (I know, very
>dangerous.) Charisma is a measure of your self-worth,
>right? How confident and pleased you are with
>yourself, etc. But it's also a measure of society's
>views (possibly in a couple of ways - if society on
>the whole likes elves, then elves will get a charisma
>bonus, while if they find trolls unappealing, then
>trolls will get a penalty - or, if you're TOLD that
>you're unnattractive throughout your life, you'll
>believe it, while if you're told you're beautiful,
>you'll believe that too).
>
When I GM, and a charisma roll is needed, race comes into it as target
numbers. A troll talking to another troll will have lower target numbers
than a human, an elf might have higher. To me charisma is more a skill than
an attribute, elves have high charisma because they know they're beautiful
as you said, and are more likely to be trained in deportation and
ettiquette, at least informally. Even though an elf has higher target
numbers when dealing with a troll that doesn't like pixies, the elf has more
dice to roll because he knows how to use his charisma better. I think this
system might be easier than fiddling with the actual stat. Often it would
come down to personal taste. There would be orks who only go in for elves or
humans, and finds ork girls ugly, or maybe an elf that doesn't like
associating with other elves, and gets along with other humans much better
(not mentioning any names). Spirits should have no racial preference, as you
said, but that doesn't mean that a troll that grew up in the gutter and
slouches all the time to fit in doors will have the same force of
personality as an elf who was always told to stand up straight, smile, and
all the world would love them.

As an aside, my main character is an ork, who has a magically heightened
charisma because he summons spirits a lot. I say that he is not very good
looking, even for an ork, but he is one of those naturally likeable people
with a magnetic personality. I personally think that charisma and looks
should be disassociated from eachother. (Look at me, I'm gorgeous, but I
have the social aptitude of a worn sock :?) )
Your average politician is ugly, but they tend to be very likeable when you
actually meet them. Your average supermodel is beautiful, but I have heard
that most are horrible bitches. Looks are an aid to charisma, just as height
is an aid to strength, but that is all.
The old D&D optional rule of appearance as a seperate stat, that can have
negative effects at the top end was a good one, I always thought.
Message no. 4
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Charisma
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 19:40:53 GMT
>From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
>Okay, I was thinking last night. (I know, very
>dangerous.) Charisma is a measure of your self-worth,
>right?

Now our group has discussed this and I have had it hammered into me that
charisma is about presence, it can come from a number of different things;
an example. My first character was (is) an elven girl, she was spoilt as a
child, she can be rude, insensitive and superior. Except she's very
attractive; charisma 7 (rasied to 8 during game play) and good looking and
knows it edge. Another character I have played is an ex-cop; he is slightly
old for the streets and not particularly attractive but he works in favors
and he knows how to treat people and get what he wants from them without
making enemys; charisma 6.

The way I see it, trolls get -2 charisma because they are huge, clumsy and
their voices make them sound stupid. Some trolls can still look
sophisticalted but it is harder for them than it is for thin sexy elf girls
who look like they were born purely to keep the slinky black dress market
afloat.

Phil
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Message no. 5
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Charisma
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 23:03:06 -0700 (PDT)
<BigSNIP(TM)>
> Your average politician is ugly, but they tend to be
very likeable when you actually meet them. Your
average supermodel is beautiful, but I have heard that
most are horrible bitches. Looks are an aid to
charisma, just as height is an aid to strength, but
that is all. The old D&D optional rule of appearance
as a seperate stat, that can have negative effects at
the top end was a good one, I always thought.

Okay, just one thing to say here. When I said I'd
thought of a new system for dealing with Charisma, I
never said I liked it, or that I intended to use it.
Honestly, it just popped into my head and, although I
started seeing problems with it almost straight away
and decided not to use it, I thought it deserved
airing. Which is why I didn't mention my own feelings
towards it. :)

Personally, I like your system, Simon. :)

*Doc' is NOT brown-nosing. Simon works for DOC', not
the other way around. "Good job, Simon. You can expect
a raise..."

Doc' crosses his fingers behind his back...*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 6
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Charisma
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 18:47:45 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Monday, May 15, 2000 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: Charisma



>*Doc' is NOT brown-nosing. Simon works for DOC', not
>the other way around. "Good job, Simon. You can expect
>a raise..."
>
>Doc' crosses his fingers behind his back...*
>


I only work for him because I get a good price on the black market for his
stationery.
Message no. 7
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Charisma
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 19:10:01 -0700 (PDT)
> >*Doc' is NOT brown-nosing. Simon works for DOC',
not the other way around. "Good job, Simon. You can
expect a raise..."
> >
> >Doc' crosses his fingers behind his back...*
>
> I only work for him because I get a good price on
the black market for his stationery.

So THAT'S where my naked lady pens have been going to!

*Doc' consigns Simon to the Death of a Thousand Paper Cuts...*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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