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Message no. 1
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Charisma and Hitler (way OT)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:23:12 +0100
Tobias Berghoff said on 15:51/25 Sep 97...

> j> Hitler had a very high charisma stat.
>
> Do you really means that? Man, he looks like some genetic experiment went
> wrong! He talks more like a comic charakter than a human and moves like
> something went really wrong with his nervous system.
> People didn't follow him beacuse he was charismatic, but because he told
> them they were superior (which is something people allways like)

Charisma (I'm not talking about game stats here, BTW) changes with
perception, IMHO. I'd say that Hitler _was_ charismatic, to people of the
1920 and '30s. Today, like you say he looks like a cartoon character, but
to someone looking at him with a 1930s mindset he's probably much more
charismatic. Part of charisma is in saying the right things, I think.

> and because Goebbels did write incredibly good speeches.

Also don't forget every speech was well-rehearsed for maximum impact on
the audience.

> So it looked like Hitler made the economy working again, but he didn't.
> He didn't care about the expenses, though, as he expected to get all the
> money back, once he conquered the world (does that sound like right from
> a Batman-comic, or what?).

It sounds like the megalomaniac he was... IMO Hitler saw himself as
Germany -- just look at the SS, which swore loyalty to Hitler instead of
to the NSDAP or to Germany. Hitler wanted a war, and didn't care if he won
or lost it (at least near the end he didn't) as long as he got one.

> Thw world didn't want to see that. It seems like nobody read 'Mein
> Kampf' (Hitlers book in which he described what he wanted to do) back
> then.

Or they read it but didn't take it seriously, which was something that
happened more than once when it came to things Hitler did.

BTW I gather it is very poorly written, but apart from that I have no idea
what's rally in it -- the book is forbidden in this country.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Zo buurman, ik hier?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 2
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Charisma and Hitler (way OT)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 17:14:00 GMT
on 26.09.97 gurth@******.NL wrote:

g> > j> Hitler had a very high charisma stat.
g> >
g> > Do you really means that? Man, he looks like some genetic experiment went
g> > wrong! He talks more like a comic charakter than a human and moves like
g> > something went really wrong with his nervous system.
g> > People didn't follow him beacuse he was charismatic, but because he told
g> > them they were superior (which is something people allways like)
g>
g> Charisma (I'm not talking about game stats here, BTW) changes with
g> perception, IMHO. I'd say that Hitler _was_ charismatic, to people of the
g> 1920 and '30s.

I'd still say, that it was because of what he *told* them, not because of
what he was. Damn, if you take his race-stuff, he be a second-class human
himself.

g> Today, like you say he looks like a cartoon character, but
g> to someone looking at him with a 1930s mindset he's probably much more
g> charismatic. Part of charisma is in saying the right things, I think.
g>
g> > and because Goebbels did write incredibly good speeches.
g>
g> Also don't forget every speech was well-rehearsed for maximum impact on
g> the audience.

That's what I meant. That guy did write awesome speeches. I guess, he
could have made all people walking on their hands, if he wanted to.

g> > So it looked like Hitler made the economy working again, but he didn't.
g> > He didn't care about the expenses, though, as he expected to get all the
g> > money back, once he conquered the world (does that sound like right from
g> > a Batman-comic, or what?).
g>
g> It sounds like the megalomaniac he was... IMO Hitler saw himself as
g> Germany -- just look at the SS, which swore loyalty to Hitler instead of
g> to the NSDAP or to Germany. Hitler wanted a war, and didn't care if he won
g> or lost it (at least near the end he didn't) as long as he got one.

He never thought he could lose. He thought he was the good guy, and the
good guys never lose, right?

g> > Thw world didn't want to see that. It seems like nobody read 'Mein
g> > Kampf' (Hitlers book in which he described what he wanted to do) back
g> > then.
g>
g> Or they read it but didn't take it seriously, which was something that
g> happened more than once when it came to things Hitler did.

I remember a French historian, who told people that Hitler was evil. Funny
thing is, nobody took him serious....

g> BTW I gather it is very poorly written, but apart from that I have no idea
g> what's rally in it -- the book is forbidden in this country.

Same here...

g> Zo buurman, ik hier?

One day, I'll figure out what that means....



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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Message no. 3
From: Stefan <casanova@******.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject: Re: Charisma and Hitler (way OT)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 20:43:40 +0000
> Tobias wrote:

> g> > j> Hitler had a very high charisma stat.

> g> > Do you really means that? Man, he looks like some genetic experiment went
> g> > wrong! He talks more like a comic charakter than a human and moves like
> g> > something went really wrong with his nervous system.
> g> > People didn't follow him beacuse he was charismatic, but because he told
> g> > them they were superior (which is something people allways like)
> g>
> g> Charisma (I'm not talking about game stats here, BTW) changes with
> g> perception, IMHO. I'd say that Hitler _was_ charismatic, to people of the
> g> 1920 and '30s.

Well sure Hitler looked like a rat in our eyes .. But then Charisma
does not really have very much to do with looks .. You can look great
but still have a very low charisma .. Secondly "we" are not exactly
open minded about it .. we all think he was an evil man .. so
there for our minds tells us he is bad and ugly .. and ofcause what
was concidered as good looks in the 20's 30's and 40's was something
different from what is concidered to be good looks today.

> I'd still say, that it was because of what he *told* them, not because of
> what he was. Damn, if you take his race-stuff, he be a second-class human
> himself.

Read a quite amuzing article about that (if anybody is interested of
seeing it I could dig it up, email me for it). They compared all the
big Nazis to what was the superior master german race and none of
them fir the description at all .. they were either to short or fat,
had eye and ear problems ... low IQ .. and most of all they didn't
exactly live a good arian life but instead using drugs waste amounts
of alcohol and so forth ... So I must say they all appear rather
pathetic ...

> g> > and because Goebbels did write incredibly good speeches.
> g>
> g> Also don't forget every speech was well-rehearsed for maximum impact on
> g> the audience.
>
> That's what I meant. That guy did write awesome speeches. I guess, he
> could have made all people walking on their hands, if he wanted to.

Goebbels was an awesome speech writer and well Hitler was a very good
speaker .. and well they had quite a hugh public relations machine
and that does alot to ..

> g> > Thw world didn't want to see that. It seems like nobody read 'Mein
> g> > Kampf' (Hitlers book in which he described what he wanted to do) back
> g> > then.
> g> Or they read it but didn't take it seriously, which was something that
> g> happened more than once when it came to things Hitler did.
>
> I remember a French historian, who told people that Hitler was evil. Funny
> thing is, nobody took him serious....

Or they read it and agreed we have to take that option into account
to .. it's easy for us to judge 50 years later what happend but to
the people back then it might have made sense ...

> g> BTW I gather it is very poorly written, but apart from that I have no idea
> g> what's rally in it -- the book is forbidden in this country.
>
> Same here...

I have heard that it's supposed to be very poorly written to but
they fixed that in the translations .. and I have read it and the
book is not forbidden in Sweden. But it was not well to put it kindly
great reading ... but then books you read for school rarely are.

/Stefan


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Message no. 4
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Charisma and Hitler (way OT)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 14:12:00 GMT
on 07.10.97 casanova@******.PASSAGEN.SE wrote:

c> > g> Charisma (I'm not talking about game stats here, BTW) changes with
c> > g> perception, IMHO. I'd say that Hitler _was_ charismatic, to people of
c> > g> the 1920 and '30s.
c>
c> Well sure Hitler looked like a rat in our eyes .. But then Charisma
c> does not really have very much to do with looks ..

Well, I'm not so sure about this. At least I would say, that if you look
disgusting, it's a lot harder to be charismatic.

c> You can look great
c> but still have a very low charisma .. Secondly "we" are not exactly
c> open minded about it

Really? :))

c> .. we all think he was an evil man .. so
c> there for our minds tells us he is bad and ugly .. and ofcause what
c> was concidered as good looks in the 20's 30's and 40's was something
c> different from what is concidered to be good looks today.

If I take a look at the NSDAP's pictures, there good-looking-German was
180cm tall, athletic and blond. Well, none of this fits for Hitler, so I
guess he was ugly back then. (I've read an artical about some Neo-Nazis
and there was this woman, who had been the boss of the BDM (Hitler little-
girls organisation) and she said "Wasn't Adolf a beautiful man!" I guess,
if you just believe in it hard enough, you can even make the pope
beautiful....

c> > g> > and because Goebbels did write incredibly good speeches.
c> > g>
c> > g> Also don't forget every speech was well-rehearsed for maximum impact
c> > g> on the audience.
c> >
c> > That's what I meant. That guy did write awesome speeches. I guess, he
c> > could have made all people walking on their hands, if he wanted to.
c>
c> Goebbels was an awesome speech writer and well Hitler was a very good
c> speaker .. and well they had quite a hugh public relations machine
c> and that does alot to ..

Oh yeah. The Propaganda-Ministerium (good name :)) was one BIG
organisation. They even made sure every German had a radio, so they could
all hear Hitlers speeches.

c> > g> BTW I gather it is very poorly written, but apart from that I have no
c> > g> idea what's rally in it -- the book is forbidden in this country.
c> >
c> > Same here...
c>
c> I have heard that it's supposed to be very poorly written to but
c> they fixed that in the translations .. and I have read it and the
c> book is not forbidden in Sweden. But it was not well to put it kindly
c> great reading ... but then books you read for school rarely are.

I read some excerpts (all they allowed for history-books at school) and I
must say, it is *very* poorly written. Of course, if you take Hitler as a
nearly-God, you might think of the pathetic style and bogus exaggerations
as great. As I said, if you're blind, everything looks beautiful.



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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