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Message no. 1
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Charisma (was:Re: Elves)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 09:31:50 -0400
In a message dated 97-10-06 05:18:42 EDT, gurth@******.NL writes:

>
> Elves are pretty by human standards, but like you say it depends on what
> you personally think is beautiful or attractive. However, in this case I
> think things get judged by human standards; on average, humans don't find
> wrinkly faces with large tusks attractive, so orks aren't deemed
> attractive; elves OTOH exhibit most of the features that humans want to
> be, physically at least: they're tall, they're thin, they look young
> forever, and so on. A great many people nowadays think all these so-called
> "supermodels" look good; add pointy ears and 300 years of extra lifespan
> to them and you have an elf => those same people will find elves
> beautiful.

Ya know, something I've done before is make all the players track in on their
"Charisma" (which is defined by the number of points they put into the
character at the time of creation) and their "Comeliness" (which is the end
value). My reason for this had to do with magicians, and spiritual beings
don't give a squat usually about the physical, fleshy, shell. They are more
interested in what is inside. And then, when a person goes to raise the
attribute, they actually have two different attributes to raise and thus
spend karma on. I don't do this very often any more, but perhaps I should.
Kind of levels a bit of the playing field (I personally think Elves are
snobs and Orks/Trolls are awesome).

> > Stop whining about elfs. They have weird eyes and they're too damn
> > skinny.
>
> And too tall ;)

It's all a 'size' thing anyway....

-K (as in Keith)
Message no. 2
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Charisma (was:Re: Elves)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 07:42:22 -0600
J. Keith Henry wrote:
|
| Ya know, something I've done before is make all the players track in on their
| "Charisma" (which is defined by the number of points they put into the
| character at the time of creation) and their "Comeliness" (which is the end
| value). My reason for this had to do with magicians, and spiritual beings
| don't give a squat usually about the physical, fleshy, shell. They are more
| interested in what is inside.

What I do is allow starting characters to be as beautiful or ugly as
the player wants them to be and I don't have them assign a value to
it. Their charisma stat is just that, their charisma.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 3
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Charisma (was:Re: Elves)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 09:52:10 -0400
In a message dated 97-10-06 09:41:53 EDT, dbuehrer@****.ORG writes:

>
> What I do is allow starting characters to be as beautiful or ugly as
> the player wants them to be and I don't have them assign a value to
> it. Their charisma stat is just that, their charisma.
>
OH I agree with ya Dave, I was just trying to level the playing ground for
the metahuman (aka...Ork/Troll) magicians who are needing some spiritual
assistance against those high falluting elves...
-K (as in Keith)
Message no. 4
From: Stefan <casanova@******.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject: Re: Charisma (was:Re: Elves)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 20:43:41 +0000
> From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>

> | Ya know, something I've done before is make all the players track in on their
> | "Charisma" (which is defined by the number of points they put into the
> | character at the time of creation) and their "Comeliness" (which is the
end
> | value). My reason for this had to do with magicians, and spiritual beings
> | don't give a squat usually about the physical, fleshy, shell. They are more
> | interested in what is inside.
>
> What I do is allow starting characters to be as beautiful or ugly as
> the player wants them to be and I don't have them assign a value to
> it. Their charisma stat is just that, their charisma.

I used the same thing. I let the players state in there description
how beautiful they are ... and charisma is separated from it ..
even thou good looks and a high charisma ain't a bad combo.

/Stefan

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Message no. 5
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Charisma (was:Re: Elves)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 12:57:56 -0600
Stefan wrote:
|
| > From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
|
| > What I do is allow starting characters to be as beautiful or ugly as
| > the player wants them to be and I don't have them assign a value to
| > it. Their charisma stat is just that, their charisma.
|
| I used the same thing. I let the players state in there description
| how beautiful they are ... and charisma is separated from it ..
| even thou good looks and a high charisma ain't a bad combo.

Yes, but it can attract a lot of unwanted attention. Sorry, but this
is the best example: Princess Diana. Sure, a PC will probably never
warrent that kind of attention. But it can screw up even little
stuff, like trying to shadow someone on the street as you draw wolf
whistles (for a female) or the attention of call girls (for a man).
The guy you're following looks over his shoulder and you're made.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 6
From: Stefan <casanova@******.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject: Re: Charisma (was:Re: Elves)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 21:10:24 +0000
> | I used the same thing. I let the players state in there description
> | how beautiful they are ... and charisma is separated from it ..
> | even thou good looks and a high charisma ain't a bad combo.
>
> Yes, but it can attract a lot of unwanted attention. Sorry, but this
> is the best example: Princess Diana. Sure, a PC will probably never
> warrent that kind of attention. But it can screw up even little
> stuff, like trying to shadow someone on the street as you draw wolf
> whistles (for a female) or the attention of call girls (for a man).
> The guy you're following looks over his shoulder and you're made.

Well we should remember that in 2058 Seattle is swamped with people
so I doubt if you could really hear anything much ... and people
everywhere ... ought to be a nightmare following someone ..

But sure good looks are not always positive ... it is better to
sometimes blend in with the crowd than stand out like a beacon ...
but I leave that up to my players to decide how atractive they appear
to be ...

/Stefan

------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Frag you and the datastream you came on!" - Sinjin the decker
------------------------------------------------------------------------
... E-Mail .............................. casanova@***.passagen.se ...
... HomePage .............................. http://hsl.home.ml.org ...
... HomePage ................... http://www.bugsoft.hik.se/sl11ls/ ...
... ICQ .................................................. 1403212 ...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 7
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Charisma (was:Re: Elves)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 22:49:54 -0400
In a message dated 97-10-07 14:49:51 EDT, casanova@******.PASSAGEN.SE writes:

> >
> > What I do is allow starting characters to be as beautiful or ugly as
> > the player wants them to be and I don't have them assign a value to
> > it. Their charisma stat is just that, their charisma.
>
> I used the same thing. I let the players state in there description
> how beautiful they are ... and charisma is separated from it ..
> even thou good looks and a high charisma ain't a bad combo.
>
Okay then, why do Trolls and Orks (and their subset groups) have to lower
their Charisma then? It is for these reasons I was referring to most
directly.

-Keith
Message no. 8
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Charisma (was:Re: Elves)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 07:34:11 -0600
J. Keith Henry wrote:
|
| > I used the same thing. I let the players state in there description
| > how beautiful they are ... and charisma is separated from it ..
| > even thou good looks and a high charisma ain't a bad combo.
|
| Okay then, why do Trolls and Orks (and their subset groups) have to lower
| their Charisma then? It is for these reasons I was referring to most
| directly.

IMO they have two things going against them: public perception and
impaired intelligence(perception).

The public perception is that trolls and orks (how come if it's
singular it's orc, but orks if it's plural?) are prone to violence.
The canines of a orks and trolls gives them a predatory aggressive
appearance. And since they have the muscle to cause a lot of damage
that adds to the fear. The public also believes that trolls are
stupid. And on top of it all a general distaste exists for trolls,
"If you don't eat all your vegetables you'll grow up to be a troll."

For whatever reason trolls have a lower average
intelligence/perception. Perception is very important when
interacting socially. If you can't tell what the other person if
feeling you can make some serious faux pass. Note that intelligence
does not equal knowledge/skill. A troll with a low intelligence (say
2) can still acquire Physics 8. But that lack if
intelligence/perception gives the impression that the troll is
stupid, and that just validates the public perception of trolls.

And thanks to general ignorance orks get lumped together with trolls
(an orc is a small troll and vice versa).

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 9
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Charisma (was:Re: Elves)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 09:53:42 +0500
On 7 Oct 97 at 22:49, J. Keith Henry wrote:

> > I used the same thing. I let the players state in there description
> > how beautiful they are ... and charisma is separated from it ..
> > even thou good looks and a high charisma ain't a bad combo.
> >
> Okay then, why do Trolls and Orks (and their subset groups) have to
> lower their Charisma then? It is for these reasons I was referring
> to most directly.

I thought it to reflect metahuman prejudice.

--
drekhead@***.net
++++
Sig file lost.
++++
Message no. 10
From: Jeremiah Stevens <jeremiah@********.EDU>
Subject: Re: Charisma (was:Re: Elves)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 10:05:31 -0400
On Wed, 8 Oct 1997, Drekhead wrote:

> On 7 Oct 97 at 22:49, J. Keith Henry wrote:
>
> > > I used the same thing. I let the players state in there description
> > > how beautiful they are ... and charisma is separated from it ..
> > > even thou good looks and a high charisma ain't a bad combo.
> > >
> > Okay then, why do Trolls and Orks (and their subset groups) have to
> > lower their Charisma then? It is for these reasons I was referring
> > to most directly.
>
> I thought it to reflect metahuman prejudice.
>
Further, how would trolls and orks interact with each other. Certainly
prejudice and stereotypes would not be a factor. Charisma modifiers for
interacting with one's own people seem appropriate.
Message no. 11
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Charisma (was:Re: Elves)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 21:11:01 +0100
David Buehrer said on 7:34/ 8 Oct 97...

> (how come if it's singular it's orc, but orks if it's plural?)

Because you're mixing two different spellings? In SR, it's singular ork,
plural orks. With Tolkien, and many others such as **&* as well, it's
singular orc, plural orcs.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The stupid is always possible.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 12
From: "Rick J. Irvine" <irvine@***.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Charisma (was:Re: Elves)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 14:57:54 -0500
At 09:11 PM 10/8/97 +0100, Gurth wrote:
>David Buehrer said on 7:34/ 8 Oct 97...
>
>> (how come if it's singular it's orc, but orks if it's plural?)
>
>Because you're mixing two different spellings? In SR, it's singular ork,
>plural orks. With Tolkien, and many others such as **&* as well, it's
>singular orc, plural orcs.

Actually, I just read the novel about the 17 yr old ork girl and the
news reporter (my apologies, the name escapes me at the moment), and
I noticed in the book several times it was spelled 'orc'. :)

Cheers,
Rick
Message no. 13
From: RUE <rue@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Charisma (was:Re: Elves)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 20:35:29 +0200
From: Stefan <casanova@******.PASSAGEN.SE>

> But sure good looks are not always positive ... it is better to
> sometimes blend in with the crowd than stand out like a beacon ...

I'd say in 205x, 'the age of affordable beauty' that very much depends in
which crowd you happen to be. In Corp-owned Downtown there surely a lot
more 'beautiful people' due to cosmetic surgery than let's say in the
Redmond Barrens.

---
cu, RUE (tm)

Email rue@***.net
Homepage http://www.triserve.com/~RUE
The Dark Prophet http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/7042
Homemobbing http://www.angelfire.com/de/schneckenwurst
Message no. 14
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Charisma (was:Re: Elves)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 21:20:10 -0400
In a message dated 97-10-08 09:33:41 EDT, dbuehrer@****.ORG writes:

> The public perception is that trolls and orks (how come if it's
> singular it's orc, but orks if it's plural?) are prone to violence.
> The canines of a orks and trolls gives them a predatory aggressive
> appearance. And since they have the muscle to cause a lot of damage
> that adds to the fear. The public also believes that trolls are
> stupid. And on top of it all a general distaste exists for trolls,
> "If you don't eat all your vegetables you'll grow up to be a troll."
>
Okay, I admit I snipped stuff concerning intelligence and the like, but using
the above, a question arises. What about Troll/Ork societies like the Black
Forest of Germany where "Metahumans (non elves) Rule" as it were? I am NOT
talking about perceived things, I am talking direct, self-image and outwardly
exposed personality (why do you think Charisma is part of Persona for the
Otaku?).
-K
Message no. 15
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Charisma (was:Re: Elves)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 21:20:58 -0400
In a message dated 97-10-08 10:05:49 EDT, jeremiah@********.EDU writes:

> > I thought it to reflect metahuman prejudice.
> >
> Further, how would trolls and orks interact with each other. Certainly
> prejudice and stereotypes would not be a factor. Charisma modifiers for
> interacting with one's own people seem appropriate.
>
YES!!! Thank You Jeremiah!!!
-Keith
Message no. 16
From: Stefan <casanova@******.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject: Re: Charisma (was:Re: Elves)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 19:50:54 +0000
> >> (how come if it's singular it's orc, but orks if it's plural?)
> >
> >Because you're mixing two different spellings? In SR, it's singular ork,
> >plural orks. With Tolkien, and many others such as **&* as well, it's
> >singular orc, plural orcs.
>
> Actually, I just read the novel about the 17 yr old ork girl and the
> news reporter (my apologies, the name escapes me at the moment), and
> I noticed in the book several times it was spelled 'orc'. :)

Orc or Ork .. whatever ... The books name is the "Lucifer Deck" ...

------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Frag you and the datastream you came on!" - Sinjin the decker
------------------------------------------------------------------------
... E-Mail .............................. casanova@***.passagen.se ...
... HomePage .............................. http://hsl.home.ml.org ...
... HomePage ................... http://www.bugsoft.hik.se/sl11ls/ ...
... ICQ .................................................. 1403212 ...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 17
From: Stefan <casanova@******.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject: Re: Charisma (was:Re: Elves)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 19:50:54 +0000
> > > What I do is allow starting characters to be as beautiful or ugly as
> > > the player wants them to be and I don't have them assign a value to
> > > it. Their charisma stat is just that, their charisma.
> >
> > I used the same thing. I let the players state in there description
> > how beautiful they are ... and charisma is separated from it ..
> > even thou good looks and a high charisma ain't a bad combo.
> >
> Okay then, why do Trolls and Orks (and their subset groups) have to lower
> their Charisma then? It is for these reasons I was referring to most
> directly.

Well ehh to get rule wise I could say to compensate for the high
strenght ... but I am not ...

Why do Trolls and Orks get to subtract there Charisma score .. Well
cause they are different ... very different .. they got thusks and
horns ... and are freeking hugh ...

The world is 80% Human or something like that ... and well they are a
minority .. there for they have a less appealing aura to the common
man ..

/Stefan

------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Frag you and the datastream you came on!" - Sinjin the decker
------------------------------------------------------------------------
... E-Mail .............................. casanova@***.passagen.se ...
... HomePage .............................. http://hsl.home.ml.org ...
... HomePage ................... http://www.bugsoft.hik.se/sl11ls/ ...
... ICQ .................................................. 1403212 ...
------------------------------------------------------------------------

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