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Message no. 1
From: marc.renouf@******.com (Renouf, Marc A.)
Subject: Checks and Balances
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 18:14:27 -0400
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
> [mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of Ubiquitous
> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 6:17 PM
>
> > I've never had a problem controlling munchkins in any
> edition of SR.
> >And I still use SR2-style initiative (which was something
> that most GMs
> >found really egregious with munchkin characters).
>
> How did you do that? My players are inent on doiung
> everything they can to increase theirs to the max and I hate
> doing the same for NPCs.

It's easy - remember the target number modifiers. If the target
number to actually hit your opponent is pushing the 10+ range (which
they frequently do in combat), all having a higher initiative allows you
to do is waste ammo more quickly. It'll get really frustrating for them
to always act first and yet not be able to actually *hit* anything.
Also remember the two great equalizers - stealth and surprise.
I use a house rule that lets very stealthy characters impose target
number penalties on other peoples' Surprise tests. Wired-3 means very
little if you don't see something coming.
Also, you can use little things to help out, like making the
option to *continue* laying down suppressive fire a free action, meaning
that even if a character (or NPC) can't go in a certain initiative
phase, they can still hold down a trigger.
Booby traps are always good fun too. It doesn't matter how much
Move-By-Wire you have crammed into your body if you just set off a
pressure-pad-detonated Claymore. Mmmmmm, chunky salsa.
And this doesn't even begin to touch on the social aspects of
Wired reflexes (both the twitchiness and the "jumping the gun" ideas).
Both of these can be subtle checks on wired characters if used properly.
Besides, it's important to remember that not everything is
combat.

Marc
Message no. 2
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Checks and Balances
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 00:48:01 +0100
On Apr 18, 2005, at 23:14, Renouf, Marc A. wrote:

> And this doesn't even begin to touch on the social aspects of
> Wired reflexes (both the twitchiness and the "jumping the gun" ideas).
> Both of these can be subtle checks on wired characters if used
> properly.

I've only been playing for 5 years, but I've never (as in, never ever
/ever/) seen a character dumb enough to have wired reflexes (of any
level) and no reflex trigger.

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 3
From: l-hansen@*****.tele.dk (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Checks and Balances
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 07:00:27 +0200
From: "Max Noel" <maxnoel_fr@*****.fr>
>
> On Apr 18, 2005, at 23:14, Renouf, Marc A. wrote:
>
>> And this doesn't even begin to touch on the social aspects of
>> Wired reflexes (both the twitchiness and the "jumping the gun" ideas).
>> Both of these can be subtle checks on wired characters if used
>> properly.
>
> I've only been playing for 5 years, but I've never (as in, never ever
> /ever/) seen a character dumb enough to have wired reflexes (of any
> level) and no reflex trigger.

Reflex Trigger was a new invention in SR3, it was not in SR1-2.

Lars
Message no. 4
From: davek@***.lonestar.org (David Kettler)
Subject: Checks and Balances
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 05:06:48 +0000
On Tue, Apr 19, 2005 at 07:00:27AM +0200, Lars Wagner Hansen wrote:
>
> Reflex Trigger was a new invention in SR3, it was not in SR1-2.
>
> Lars

Not true. I believe it was introduced in Cybertechnology, which was a SR2 sourcebook.

--
Dave Kettler
davek@***.lonestar.org
http://davek.freeshell.org/
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org
Message no. 5
From: owen@***.edu.au (Owen McKerrow)
Subject: Checks and Balances
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:14:22 +1000
Y
On 19/04/2005, at 3:06 PM, David Kettler wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 19, 2005 at 07:00:27AM +0200, Lars Wagner Hansen wrote:
>>
>> Reflex Trigger was a new invention in SR3, it was not in SR1-2.
>>
>> Lars
>
> Not true. I believe it was introduced in Cybertechnology, which was a
> SR2 sourcebook.


Yes, I pretty sure that is the case.
Message no. 6
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Checks and Balances
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 11:15:12 +0200
According to Lars Wagner Hansen, on 19-04-2005 07:00 the word on the
street was...

> Reflex Trigger was a new invention in SR3, it was not in SR1-2.

Not entirely true :) It was introduced in Cybertechnology in 1994, so
for about 5 years we all had to do without.

Of course, the rules for acting unintentionally were _also_ introduced
in Cybertechnology, so until FASA introduced reflex triggers, nobody had
ever had a need for them anyway...

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kemen (keemde, h gekeemd): het spelen van computerspelletjes
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 7
From: marc.renouf@******.com (Renouf, Marc A.)
Subject: Checks and Balances
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 11:17:57 -0400
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
> [mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of Max Noel
> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 7:48 PM
>
> > And this doesn't even begin to touch on the social
> aspects of Wired
> > reflexes (both the twitchiness and the "jumping the gun" ideas).
> > Both of these can be subtle checks on wired characters if used
> > properly.
>
> I've only been playing for 5 years, but I've never (as
> in, never ever
> /ever/) seen a character dumb enough to have wired reflexes (of any
> level) and no reflex trigger.

I have. And if you go with Boosted Reflexes or Synaptic
Accelerators, you *can't* get a reflex trigger. Plus also, there's one
other thing to consider - even if you *have* a reflex trigger, you're
faced with a choice: if you turn your reflexes off, you don't have the
extra Reaction dice for a Surprise test. If you leave them on all the
time so as not to get surprised, you're more likely to "jump the gun."
Catch-22, my friend, and any evil GM will ruthlessly exploit either
situation. Heh.

Marc
Message no. 8
From: weberm@*******.net (Michael Weber)
Subject: Checks and Balances
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 11:58:38 -0400
"Renouf, Marc A." <marc.renouf@******.com> wrote:

> I have. And if you go with Boosted Reflexes or Synaptic
>Accelerators, you *can't* get a reflex trigger. Plus also, there's one
>other thing to consider - even if you *have* a reflex trigger, you're
>faced with a choice: if you turn your reflexes off, you don't have the
>extra Reaction dice for a Surprise test. If you leave them on all the
>time so as not to get surprised, you're more likely to "jump the gun."
>Catch-22, my friend, and any evil GM will ruthlessly exploit either
>situation. Heh.

Where are the rules concerning that? I'm thinking about implementing
something for my players who always get wired 2 for their chars. The
only reason they don't get wired 3 is that it takes too much essence...
Message no. 9
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Checks and Balances
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 17:02:55 +0100
On Apr 19, 2005, at 16:58, Michael Weber wrote:

> Where are the rules concerning that? I'm thinking about implementing
> something for my players who always get wired 2 for their chars. The
> only reason they don't get wired 3 is that it takes too much essence...

I think they're in SR3. Either this, or Man and Machine. Which would
be stupid given that if the rules are in M&M, the Reflex Trigger as
introduced in SR3 is useless.

-- Wild_Cat
(and don't get me started on how stupid the idea of requiring a reflex
trigger for riggers to jack into the Matrix is)
Message no. 10
From: jjvanp@*****.com (Jan Jaap van Poelgeest)
Subject: Checks and Balances
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 09:54:28 -0700 (PDT)
--- Max Noel <maxnoel_fr@*****.fr> wrote:
>
> On Apr 19, 2005, at 16:58, Michael Weber wrote:
>
> > Where are the rules concerning that? I'm thinking
> about implementing
> > something for my players who always get wired 2
> for their chars. The
> > only reason they don't get wired 3 is that it
> takes too much essence...
>
> I think they're in SR3. Either this, or Man and
> Machine. Which would
> be stupid given that if the rules are in M&M, the
> Reflex Trigger as
> introduced in SR3 is useless.

The way I understand it is that the reflex trigger is
there to minimise the social penalties that result
from having wired reflexes. I'd play it that a
character with wired 3 does not suffer the
low-essence-social-skill-modifier as long as they've
got their reflexes switched off. I'd also rule that in
any high-tension noncombat situation wired reflexes
are in fact not going to get in the way (because
everyone will be on their toes... if this doesn't make
sense to you, don't bother getting into an argument
about it). When GMing a character with wired/MBW (not
sure about boosted... that augmentation might be more
"natural"/subjectively controllable) I'm mainly going
to have them encounter problems of the "ordering a
beer and drawing a gun to pay the bartender" kind.
Their "professional lives" i.e.: the things that
happen during the "sneaking about and killing people"
part of most runs should IMO generally not be
affected. Perhaps if a player indicates that they WILL
MAKE A DECISION BEFORE ANYONE ELSE ("because I'm so
quick"), said player might be put on the spot to
QUICKLY come up with something (3-count to reply),
which will then happen in-game. It's a little gimmick
that can make certain role-playing aspects a bit more
prevalent, but it can get stale soon, so WFYB.

cheers,

Jan Jaap



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Message no. 11
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Checks and Balances
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 19:02:52 +0100
At 12:48 AM 4/19/2005, Wild_Cat wrote:
> I've only been playing for 5 years, but I've never (as in, never
> ever /ever/) seen a character dumb enough to have wired reflexes (of any
> level) and no reflex trigger.

I've seen three - out of maybe fifteen characters.
The big question of course is...

Does the GM get initiatives from everyone _before_ allowing those with
reflex triggers to spend their free action to activate their cyberware?
It's funny when the barely cybered courier (datajack, headware mem,
cybereyes and that's it) beat the Essence 0.01 Street Samurai because the
latter's Wired 3 wouldn't kick in until the next turn.

Even more so if the sammy is flatfooted... "Ha! now you know how we feel!".


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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Message no. 12
From: toxicspirit@*****.com (Fortune)
Subject: Checks and Balances
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 04:47:23 +1000
Marc said ...

> > I've only been playing for 5 years, but I've never (as
> > in, never ever
> > /ever/) seen a character dumb enough to have wired reflexes (of any
> > level) and no reflex trigger.
>
> I have. And if you go with Boosted Reflexes or Synaptic
> Accelerators, you *can't* get a reflex trigger.

Those aren't specifically 'Wired Reflexes' though. Also keep in mind
that only Cybernetic increases in Initiaive (extra dice) have the
twitchiness problem. Bonuses fro Bioware or Magic do not cause this,
nor do increases to the Reaction Attribute intself.

- Fortune
Message no. 13
From: weberm@*******.net (Ubiquitous)
Subject: Checks and Balances
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 17:51:22 -0400
At 12:48 AM 4/19/2005 +0100, you wrote:

> I've only been playing for 5 years, but I've never (as in, never ever
>/ever/) seen a character dumb enough to have wired reflexes (of any
>level) and no reflex trigger.

How long have you been playing? They only came out with those shortly
before 3rd edition came out.
--
"Ted, sweetheart...somebody's left a wicker basket with a little baby in it
on our front doorstep."
"Just leave it out there on the stoop, honey. The cats'll get it."
- Red Meat http://www.redmeat.com/redmeat/
Message no. 14
From: weberm@*******.net (Ubiquitous)
Subject: Checks and Balances
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 17:52:19 -0400
At 05:06 AM 4/19/2005 +0000, you wrote:
>On Tue, Apr 19, 2005 at 07:00:27AM +0200, Lars Wagner Hansen wrote:

>> Reflex Trigger was a new invention in SR3, it was not in SR1-2.
>
>Not true. I believe it was introduced in Cybertechnology, which was a SR2
>sourcebook.

Ah! THAT's why it sounded familiar!
--
"Ted, sweetheart...somebody's left a wicker basket with a little baby in it
on our front doorstep."
"Just leave it out there on the stoop, honey. The cats'll get it."
- Red Meat http://www.redmeat.com/redmeat/
Message no. 15
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Checks and Balances
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 23:03:52 +0100
On Apr 19, 2005, at 22:51, Ubiquitous wrote:

> At 12:48 AM 4/19/2005 +0100, you wrote:
>
>> I've only been playing for 5 years, but I've never (as in, never ever
>> /ever/) seen a character dumb enough to have wired reflexes (of any
>> level) and no reflex trigger.
>
> How long have you been playing? They only came out with those shortly
> before 3rd edition came out.

I started in mid-1999. I'm an SR3-only player (even though I own
several SR1 and 2 books, core rulebooks for all 3 editions, and call
Adepts "physads" :D ).

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 16
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Checks and Balances
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:29:40 +0200
According to Michael Weber, on 19-04-2005 17:58 the word on the street
was...

> Where are the rules concerning that? I'm thinking about implementing
> something for my players who always get wired 2 for their chars. The
> only reason they don't get wired 3 is that it takes too much essence...

They're in Man & Machine, on page 45 to be precise.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kemen (keemde, h gekeemd): het spelen van computerspelletjes
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 17
From: anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: Checks and Balances
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 12:55:21 -0700
On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:29:40 +0200
Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
> According to Michael Weber, on 19-04-2005 17:58 the word on the street
> was...
>
I'm thinking about implementing something for my players who always get
wired 2 for their chars. Theonly reason they don't get wired 3 is that it
takes too much essence...
>
> They're in Man & Machine, on page 45 to be precise.

I've always considered that the extra step of an on-switch is a crock. I
figure that the normal installation of any initiative enhancing warez would
come with a compensator or on/off device, for playability. While the SR rules
are a reasonably organic whole, they are of course composed of thousands of
individual contributions, many of which are spot on and some of which don't
fit my style of play or GMming. The whole issue of speedware on/off takes the
game into too picky a corner for my taste. It could be easily be left behind
with no loss.
--Anders

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