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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bryan Pow)
Subject: Cheep Armour
Date: Sun May 5 19:10:01 2002
How much armour can be layered over other armour?
Should a character be able to wear Form Fitting (4/1) under a Secure Jacket
(5/3) under a long coat (4/2) and get an armour of 9/3 which is as much
ballistsic as Security armour?

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Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Cheep Armour
Date: Sun May 5 21:05:01 2002
> How much armour can be layered over other armour?
> Should a character be able to wear Form Fitting (4/1) under a Secure
> Jacket
> (5/3) under a long coat (4/2) and get an armour of 9/3 which is as
much
> ballistsic as Security armour?

Not too sure, I'd say it's probably up to you BUT I've got issues with
the way that the armor stacks anyway, I completely disagree with the
fact that the resulting armor rating would only e a 9/3 when you're
layering a 4/1, 5/3, and 4/2.....granted it was gutted like this for
game mechanics but lets be a little realistic, if you've got something
with an impact rating of 3 and are wearing two other things that are
respectively 2 and 1 there's no way in HELL that you should only be at
the total rating of the 3 that you happen to be wearing same goes for
ballistic, I would say that you should add up all of the stuff on top of
the innermost layer and then divide it by 2 and add the resulting
numbers to what you're base layer was, in the above situation you'd have
the Form Fit as a base layer at 4/1, then have the jacket and longcoat
at 5/3 and 4/2 for a total of 9/5, divide it by 2 to get 5/3 (remember
that if it's half or more it rounds up and not down unless you like to
be the GM that's out to get the players) for a total armor rating of
9/4, while it's not much of a difference in this situation, lets look at
it if you're wearing something OTHER than form fit as your base
layer.....

Starting with the Victory Winterized Coveralls (4/4), put on an armored
vest with plates (4/2) and then pull on your trusty secure long coat
(4/2) you would get a resulting rating of 8/6 instead of 6/4, two points
may not seem like a lot but it sure counts for the ones getting shot at
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (-Â¥-Zeb-Â¥-)
Subject: Cheep Armour
Date: Sun May 5 21:10:01 2002
<bryan_pow@*******.com> wrote:


> How much armour can be layered over other armour?
> Should a character be able to wear Form Fitting (4/1) under a Secure
Jacket
> (5/3) under a long coat (4/2) and get an armour of 9/3 which is as much
> ballistsic as Security armour?
>

I've always ruled in my games that you cannot combine coats and jackets
without being overly obvious (not to mention uncomfortable) and to prove my
point I asked a player to put on a coat and a jacket at the same time and
tell me how restricted he felt. Needless to say, they haven't asked about
that again, but this question does come up.

I allow form-fitting under almost anything. I will let a character wear a
vest under a coat OR a jacket. Neither a coat now a jacket can be worn under
security or military armor (not that my players get that anyway).

So, yes, form-fitting under a vest under a coat/jacket I'd allow.

More than that, I think, is getting ludicrous.

Zebulin
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: Cheep Armour
Date: Sun May 5 21:30:01 2002
On Mon, 06 May 2002 11:10:16 +1200
"Bryan Pow" <bryan_pow@*******.com> wrote:

> How much armour can be layered over other armour?
> Should a character be able to wear Form Fitting (4/1) under a Secure Jacket
> (5/3) under a long coat (4/2) and get an armour of 9/3 which is as much
> ballistsic as Security armour?

I'd say he can do that, but after putting all that armor on, he'd be
about as able to move as a sofa. IIRC, layering armor gives you much
steeper penalties than merely wearing better armor.

--
Bira -- SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://www.shadowlandbr.hpg.com.br
Redator de Shadowrun da RPG em Revista
http://www.rpgemrevista.f2s.com
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Meph)
Subject: Cheep Armour
Date: Sun May 5 23:35:00 2002
> > How much armour can be layered over other armour?
> > Should a character be able to wear Form Fitting (4/1) under a Secure
Jacket
> > (5/3) under a long coat (4/2) and get an armour of 9/3 which is as much
> > ballistsic as Security armour?


To wear all that AND still not have penalties, he would have to have a
quickness of 13. Otherwise, every two armor points above his quickness
results in the loss of combat pool die. And this is using the un-stacked
armor.

Meph
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bryan Pow)
Subject: Cheep Armour
Date: Mon May 6 01:10:01 2002
> > > How much armour can be layered over other armour?
> > > Should a character be able to wear Form Fitting (4/1) under a Secure
>Jacket
> > > (5/3) under a long coat (4/2) and get an armour of 9/3 which is as
>much
> > > ballistsic as Security armour?
>
>
> To wear all that AND still not have penalties, he would have to have a
>quickness of 13. Otherwise, every two armor points above his quickness
>results in the loss of combat pool die. And this is using the un-stacked
>armor.

It only points says of armour, not to add together all the types. The
negative effects from Layering have more of an impact on players than the
effects from the armour, with every two points of impact and ballitic above
their quickness giving a +1 to all quickness linked skills (including such
things as Pistols).

As a house rule I use points over Strength rather than points over Quickness
as this seems much more realistic.

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Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Cheep Armour
Date: Mon May 6 01:35:01 2002
> I've always ruled in my games that you cannot combine coats and
jackets
> without being overly obvious (not to mention uncomfortable) and to
prove
> my
> point I asked a player to put on a coat and a jacket at the same time
and
> tell me how restricted he felt. Needless to say, they haven't asked
about
> that again, but this question does come up.
>
> I allow form-fitting under almost anything. I will let a character
wear a
> vest under a coat OR a jacket. Neither a coat now a jacket can be worn
> under
> security or military armor (not that my players get that anyway).
>
> So, yes, form-fitting under a vest under a coat/jacket I'd allow.
>
> More than that, I think, is getting ludicrous.

See the problem with that is that according to the military a flak
jacket is an armored vest, there are no sleeves, they're a little bulky
under a field jacket but then again that's something designed to be
warm, you could comfortably wear it under a duster.....
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Cheep Armour
Date: Mon May 6 05:40:01 2002
According to Bryan Pow, on Mon, 06 May 2002 the word on the street was...

> How much armour can be layered over other armour?
> Should a character be able to wear Form Fitting (4/1) under a Secure
> Jacket (5/3) under a long coat (4/2) and get an armour of 9/3 which is as
> much ballistsic as Security armour?

By the book, only the second set of armor adds half its ratings to those of
the first. This is explained in the first paragraph under the heading
"Layering Armor" on page 285 of SR3 -- it only mentions the
"highest-rated"
and the "next highest-rated" pieces of armor, not the "second-highest"
and
so on.

--
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Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Meph)
Subject: Cheep Armour
Date: Mon May 6 06:10:01 2002
> It only points says of armour, not to add together all the types. The
> negative effects from Layering have more of an impact on players than the
> effects from the armour, with every two points of impact and ballitic
above
> their quickness giving a +1 to all quickness linked skills (including such
> things as Pistols).
>
> As a house rule I use points over Strength rather than points over
Quickness
> as this seems much more realistic.


Yes, per with the erratta and the discussion here...the general
consensus was to add together the highest one (ballastic or impact) but to
use the total score and NOT the layering score...

Meph
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Keith Duthie)
Subject: Cheep Armour
Date: Mon May 6 07:50:01 2002
On Mon, 6 May 2002, Bryan Pow wrote:

> It only points says of armour, not to add together all the types. The
> negative effects from Layering have more of an impact on players than the
> effects from the armour, with every two points of impact and ballitic above
> their quickness giving a +1 to all quickness linked skills (including such
> things as Pistols).

That would be every point of ballistic over quickness giving a +1 to all
quickness linked skills.

--
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Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Cheep Armour
Date: Mon May 6 08:10:01 2002
In article <000001c1f48d$29df9850$0700a8c0@*****>, Derek Hyde
<dhyde@*********.net> writes
>Starting with the Victory Winterized Coveralls (4/4), put on an armored
>vest with plates (4/2) and then pull on your trusty secure long coat
>(4/2) you would get a resulting rating of 8/6 instead of 6/4, two points
>may not seem like a lot but it sure counts for the ones getting shot at

Now try walking briskly along the street on a warm day :) Your enemies
don't need to shoot you, they just watch while you collapse from heat
prostration...

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Cheep Armour
Date: Mon May 6 11:20:01 2002
In article <000001c1f4af$d102f290$0700a8c0@*****>, Derek Hyde
<dhyde@*********.net> writes
>See the problem with that is that according to the military a flak
>jacket is an armored vest, there are no sleeves, they're a little bulky
>under a field jacket but then again that's something designed to be
>warm, you could comfortably wear it under a duster.....

Having been issued body armour, I'd say the issue INIBA vest wouldn't be
particularly comfortable worn as an undergarment.

By the time you're looking at armour with a significant Impact rating,
you're into something kin to current impact armour for motorcyclists:
while the Hiprotec in my jacket is thinner than most such armour, it's
noticeable, and two layers would be bulky and hard to manage.

I tend to limit layering armour to something like armour clothing or
form-fit as the underlayer, if you're wanting to wear an armoured vest,
jacket or coat over it.

--
Paul J. Adam

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