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Message no. 1
From: Mark Abbott markabbott@****.com
Subject: chipjacks and expert drivers
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:07:48 -0400
I've got a question about chipjacks and the expert driver accessory
from M&M. By my reading, if I get skillwires 6, and a chipjack with
an expert driver at rating 6, I can use activesofts with 6 dice PLUS
6 task pool dice, effectively giving me 12 dice to throw. If I get 2
chipjacks with similar setup I can jack in two chips, switch between
them with free actions, and have two skills with an effective 12 dice
each. This seems out of line to me, and VERY powerful. A character
could get Pistols 6, SMG 6, both on chips, take a shot with one using
12 dice, switch over to the other with a free action, take a shot
with the other using 12 dice, and still reserve his combat pool for
anything else needed. If you added in the DIMAP option you could
potentially have a combat skill with a task pool and also be able to
use combat pool. It's easy to create a beginning character who can
throw 20+ dice on a single shot. This seems way out of line to me.

Activesoft prices are slightly unclear, there's a table on SR3 pg.
296 which gives price and availability info, but the text below
references a different table on pg. 303 which is different by a
factor of 2. Nevertheless, using the most expensive table and street
index, I can get an activesoft rating 6 for 30k or so which
effectively gives me a skill of 12. Am I missing something here or
is this just badly balanced?

Mark
Message no. 2
From: Ashley Griffiths dagdamor@***********.co.uk
Subject: chipjacks and expert drivers
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 00:19:45 +0100
> I've got a question about chipjacks and the expert driver accessory
> from M&M. By my reading, if I get skillwires 6, and a chipjack with
> an expert driver at rating 6, I can use activesofts with 6 dice PLUS
> 6 task pool dice, effectively giving me 12 dice to throw. If I get 2
> chipjacks with similar setup I can jack in two chips, switch between
> them with free actions, and have two skills with an effective 12 dice
> each. This seems out of line to me, and VERY powerful. A character
> could get Pistols 6, SMG 6, both on chips, take a shot with one using
> 12 dice, switch over to the other with a free action, take a shot
> with the other using 12 dice, and still reserve his combat pool for
> anything else needed. If you added in the DIMAP option you could
> potentially have a combat skill with a task pool and also be able to
> use combat pool. It's easy to create a beginning character who can
> throw 20+ dice on a single shot. This seems way out of line to me.
>
> Activesoft prices are slightly unclear, there's a table on SR3 pg.
> 296 which gives price and availability info, but the text below
> references a different table on pg. 303 which is different by a
> factor of 2. Nevertheless, using the most expensive table and street
> index, I can get an activesoft rating 6 for 30k or so which
> effectively gives me a skill of 12. Am I missing something here or
> is this just badly balanced?
>
> Mark
>
can anybody say duh?

i dont mean to be so harsh but we had the exact same conversation (fight?),
about a week ago and it just led to no conclusion what so ever. CHeck out
the history's to find out what agreement we didn't come to.



Dagda Mor

what was once proved is now only imagined
Message no. 3
From: Brian Johnson expatrie@*******.net
Subject: chipjacks and expert drivers
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 18:48:32 -0500
Mark Abbott wrote:

> I've got a question about chipjacks and the expert driver accessory
> from M&M. By my reading, if I get skillwires 6, and a chipjack with
> an expert driver at rating 6, giving me 12 dice to throw.

...

> This seems out of line to me, and VERY powerful.

I suppose if there's too much of a problem with it, maybe all
shadowrunners around the world could band together to destroy the
technology, production means, and research, thus making themselves the
only ones who have the tech, preventing corporations from fielding armies
of Pistol 12 goons at them?

Anarchists Unite!




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Message no. 4
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*****.com
Subject: chipjacks and expert drivers
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 21:34:12 -0500
<snip fancy chipjack / skillwire setup>
:If you added in the DIMAP option you could
:potentially have a combat skill with a task pool and also be able to
:use combat pool. It's easy to create a beginning character who can
:throw 20+ dice on a single shot. This seems way out of line to me.

I'd like to see the math on that. That sounds like a HUGE chip, meaning
very expensive skillwires. Also, DIMAP increases Skillsoft avialiability
(+ rating), so the best a starting character can get is a DIMAP 2 skillsoft.
And when combinign multiple pools, I would not allow TOTAL pool dice over
skill rating- meaning no matter the souces, that rating 6 skill maxes out at
12 dice.


Seb


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Message no. 5
From: Mark Abbott markabbott@****.com
Subject: chipjacks and expert drivers
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 00:01:21 -0400
Ashley wrote:
>can anybody say duh?
>
>i dont mean to be so harsh but we had the exact same conversation (fight?),
>about a week ago and it just led to no conclusion what so ever. CHeck out
>the history's to find out what agreement we didn't come to.
>

Well, sorry. I joined this group shortly after that discussion took
place and so I missed it. I started scanning the archives for the
subject but it's not exactly a trivial job given that there's no
immediately obvious way to search through the entire thing by subject
other than scanning page after page of subject listings. If I've
missed a better way to look through the archives, mea culpa. Knowing
that there was a recent discussion I just now went back and walked
through the listings and found the group of posts discussing CED and
they don't actually address my question anyway.

To reiterate, the question was, to me the CED seems rather
unbalanced, especially in comparison to DIMAP skillsofts, and what is
other people's take on that?


Seb wrote:
><snip fancy chipjack / skillwire setup>
>:If you added in the DIMAP option you could
>:potentially have a combat skill with a task pool and also be able to
>:use combat pool. It's easy to create a beginning character who can
>:throw 20+ dice on a single shot. This seems way out of line to me.

> I'd like to see the math on that. That sounds like a HUGE chip, meaning
>very expensive skillwires. Also, DIMAP increases Skillsoft avialiability
>(+ rating), so the best a starting character can get is a DIMAP 2 skillsoft.
>And when combinign multiple pools, I would not allow TOTAL pool dice over
>skill rating- meaning no matter the souces, that rating 6 skill maxes out at
>12 dice.

Oops, you're right, I missed the availability for the DIMAP going
over 6 so no, I couldn't design a starting character with quite that
many dice. 12 plus the 2 from DIMAP is easy though, which is STILL
pretty high though certainly not as nuts.

I do like your interpretation that TOTAL pool dice cannot exceed the
skill, regardless of the source of the dice. Is that a house rule or
official? Either way, it helps the problem some.

I still think that the ability to start a character who can have 12
dice toward a variety of skills is pretty wild. That's more dice
than most experienced characters (at least in the games I've played)
are likely to ever get for any non-combat, non-rigged, or non-decking
skill, yet with CED it's easy to have a variety of skills at that
level. It strikes me as unbalancing compared to just about anything
else the starting character can get his hands on and I'm curious if
others feel the same way. And if not, why not?


Mark
Message no. 6
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*****.com
Subject: chipjacks and expert drivers
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:22:20 -0500
From: Mark Abbott <markabbott@****.com>

:I do like your interpretation that TOTAL pool dice cannot exceed the
:skill, regardless of the source of the dice. Is that a house rule or
:official? Either way, it helps the problem some.

I guess its a house rule of sorts. I can't currently find anything that
says either way about what limits there are when you get to use pool dice
from multiple pools- the limits are part of the pool / skill use
descriptions, which generally only allow one pool per roll.

OTOH, another way to look at it is, if you can use task pool dice with a
combat skill, they effectively are being used as combat pool dice.

:I still think that the ability to start a character who can have 12
:dice toward a variety of skills is pretty wild. That's more dice
:than most experienced characters (at least in the games I've played)
:are likely to ever get for any non-combat, non-rigged, or non-decking
:skill, yet with CED it's easy to have a variety of skills at that
:level. It strikes me as unbalancing compared to just about anything
:else the starting character can get his hands on and I'm curious if
:others feel the same way. And if not, why not?
:
:
:Mark

Maybe because those skills are generally under-used anyhow, especially
by the kind of cyber-hardcase who would sink 2 essence worth of cyber into
using skillsofts? Adepts get a similarly potent boost to some of those
skills, and mages can often do similarly well on those tasks with their
spells, so this level of ability itself is not really new.
The potential flexibility is certainly newly impressive, and if it
actually DISPLACES all normal use of those skills, its maybe a problem. It
doesn't seem it generally does so, though. <Shrug>

Mongoose / Seb


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Message no. 7
From: Mark Abbott markabbott@****.com
Subject: chipjacks and expert drivers
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:54:26 -0400
>
> Maybe because those skills are generally under-used anyhow, especially
>by the kind of cyber-hardcase who would sink 2 essence worth of cyber into
>using skillsofts? Adepts get a similarly potent boost to some of those
>skills, and mages can often do similarly well on those tasks with their
>spells, so this level of ability itself is not really new.
> The potential flexibility is certainly newly impressive, and if it
>actually DISPLACES all normal use of those skills, its maybe a problem. It
>doesn't seem it generally does so, though. <Shrug>

Interesting, thanks for the opinion. I DO like limiting total pool
dice, no matter what pool they're drawn from. I suspect that one
will end up in our game whatever our GMs decide about the CED.

Mark

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