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Message no. 1
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: clerics/shamans, demons, road spirits, totems
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 1994 10:26:14 +1100
Clerical vs shamanic

On the subject of priests as magic users, I'd say it was close to
mandatory for the priest to follow a hermetic tradition. Given
the level of belief, dedication, (or perhaps just inclination) for
someone to join an organised religion etc. etc., it means that they
agree more with a `rulebook' approach. Shamanism tends to be
`wilder', to promote change - and consequently tends to be anti-
authority and anti-establishment. Personal rather than consensual.

Demons

I like the idea of having them around, if your game needs even more
darkness, threat, and confusion. (A demon is a magical thing that
is intelligent, evil, and interested in human affairs. The spirits
and elementals are very non-human in their outlook. Demons
traditionally have an all-too-good grasp of human nature.)

Nor does their existence _prove_ the existence of satan or god (in a
game sense), though I would expect demons to certainly encourage
this belief on occasion, if it helped them manipulate someone to act
as the demon wanted.

More problematic is the question it raises about angels. (Good
demons...?)

Road spirits

I like the idea - it has a lot of flavour, and _feels_ right to me.
As far as using it for a rules rape, if you adopt the principle that
the domain of the road spirit lasts only as long as the road has the
same name, and stops at the point at which the name changes, you have
a reasonable limiting factor. So you'd lose the spirit of a major
highway if it came into a town and the stretch of road had a superseding
local name.

I'd also suggest that they wouldn't form walls between domains,
just slow down travel _across_ them by spirits of the neighbouring
domains (while they wait to cross the road :-) ).

Totems

My personal view is that the totems exist in their own right,
independent of believers. That their existence shapes people's
beliefs and attitudes, not that they're created by these beliefs.

One good game reason for this is to rule out extra totems beyond
the carefully thought out ones. Nintendo, MTV, and Television
totems? Blechh. And if you have rules for creating (or justifying)
extra totems, you can be sure that some players will think long
and carefully about creating one that suits them. A Gun totem,
for example...

The idea of the shaman's `limits' being self-imposed (subconsciously)
doesn't work. For one thing, if the character grew and changed so
that they clearly had removed those restraints, how could you justify
holding them to those restrictions? And some of those restrictions
are hard to justify psychologically (`Uh, your spirits go away at sunset
because... uh, because you have a deep-seated fear of the dark! Yeah!')
And you'd expect as much variation amongst the restrictions as there
are types of personality.

It seems much simpler and more manageable to treat them as existing in
their own right. It also gives the GM extra, fascinating NPCs to play,
as the occasion arises. Powerful ones, that don't have to put up with
bullsh*t when they hear it.

These are just my opinions about the game, natch.

luke
Message no. 2
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: clerics/shamans, demons, road spirits, totems
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 1994 22:30:39 -0600
On Wed, 12 Jan 1994, Luke Kendall wrote:

> On the subject of priests as magic users, I'd say it was close to
> mandatory for the priest to follow a hermetic tradition. Given
> the level of belief, dedication, (or perhaps just inclination) for
> someone to join an organised religion etc. etc., it means that they
> agree more with a `rulebook' approach. Shamanism tends to be
> `wilder', to promote change - and consequently tends to be anti-
> authority and anti-establishment. Personal rather than consensual.

Uh, hermetics can be just as weird too. Merlin? Gahndalf? Two famous
hermetics that did lots of non-standard stuff.


> I like the idea of having them around, if your game needs even more
> darkness, threat, and confusion. (A demon is a magical thing that
> is intelligent, evil, and interested in human affairs. The spirits
> and elementals are very non-human in their outlook. Demons
> traditionally have an all-too-good grasp of human nature.)

Ok, what about 'demons' being a creature whose natural plane is astral,
and who project into our place. Cranky, hungry, mean.

This is different from spirits/elementals only if you follow that spirits
are created as manifestations of the shaman that conjurs it. Otherwise,
demons are REALLY CRANKY spirits what physically manifest. (just a thought)

> Nor does their existence _prove_ the existence of satan or god (in a
> game sense), though I would expect demons to certainly encourage
> this belief on occasion, if it helped them manipulate someone to act
> as the demon wanted.

Right. Demons is probably just a slang name that society provides,
trying to attach some lore to the critters.

> More problematic is the question it raises about angels. (Good
> demons...?)

Works for me. Again, just a slang name.

> One good game reason for this is to rule out extra totems beyond
> the carefully thought out ones. Nintendo, MTV, and Television
> totems? Blechh. And if you have rules for creating (or justifying)
> extra totems, you can be sure that some players will think long
> and carefully about creating one that suits them. A Gun totem,
> for example...

A good change for some ROLE playing.

> The idea of the shaman's `limits' being self-imposed (subconsciously)
> doesn't work. For one thing, if the character grew and changed so
> that they clearly had removed those restraints, how could you justify
> holding them to those restrictions? And some of those restrictions
> are hard to justify psychologically (`Uh, your spirits go away at sunset
> because... uh, because you have a deep-seated fear of the dark! Yeah!')
> And you'd expect as much variation amongst the restrictions as there
> are types of personality.

But, without those subconscious limitations, the shaman becomes a
hermetic. Yes, I'm advocating shamans changing professions, I guess (did
I say that?)

> It seems much simpler and more manageable to treat them as existing in
> their own right. It also gives the GM extra, fascinating NPCs to play,
> as the occasion arises. Powerful ones, that don't have to put up with
> bullsh*t when they hear it.

1) You can swear on this list, we are all mature enough to handle it
2) You can also use this as an opportunity to play with the mind of the
PC. The spirit might be part of the casters subconscious, but you can

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
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n-(---) h+(*) f+ g+ w++ t++ r++ y+(*)
Message no. 3
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: clerics/shamans, demons, road spirits, totems
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 1994 18:33:17 -0600
>On the subject of priests as magic users, I'd say it was close to
>mandatory for the priest to follow a hermetic tradition. Given
>the level of belief, dedication, (or perhaps just inclination) for
>someone to join an organised religion etc. etc., it means that they
>agree more with a `rulebook' approach. Shamanism tends to be
>`wilder', to promote change - and consequently tends to be anti-
>authority and anti-establishment. Personal rather than consensual.

Well, Catholicsim specifically does, IMHO, lean toward hermeticism, as do
most other "established" religions. However, many christian parishes and
faiths fit into the shamanic tradition as well; Pentecostalists come to mind.

>The spirits and elementals are very non-human in their outlook. Demons
>traditionally have an all-too-good grasp of human nature.)

Check out the Player motivation, as well as the statement that spirits may
take up human motivations. I still say they're Free Spirits, as are Angels.

>As far as using it for a rules rape, if you adopt the principle that
>the domain of the road spirit lasts only as long as the road has the
>same name, and stops at the point at which the name changes, you have
>a reasonable limiting factor.

That's silly. "In a surprise move today, the Shamanic Party of the Ute nation
renamed highways 57, 96 and old I-40 to Kick-the-Ass-of-any-who-trifle-with-
shaman-patrol-officers. Also called Security link, because now any shaman can
summon a road spirit to move something or hurt something anywhere on the
highway."

>and carefully about creating one that suits them. A Gun totem,
>for example...

Happiness is a warm, yes it is. . .GUN!

>The idea of the shaman's `limits' being self-imposed (subconsciously)
>doesn't work. For one thing, if the character grew and changed so
>that they clearly had removed those restraints, how could you justify
>holding them to those restrictions?

But those same restrictions are reinforced every day by the way you
practice magic. Consistency=Comfort in people.

>And some of those restrictions
>are hard to justify psychologically (`Uh, your spirits go away at sunset
>because... uh, because you have a deep-seated fear of the dark! Yeah!')

It's not a phobia, it's a belief. The tradition you have been raised with
and everything you've experienced says that it's not polite (at least) to
keep spirits around more than 12 hours at a time. So they vanish. Or maybe,
once created, they DO have minds of their own. . . but must still come into
being at the behest of the magician.

>And you'd expect as much variation amongst the restrictions as there
>are types of personality.

No you wouldn't. A war-god type of person simply wouldn't have the
thought patterns and values to behave as a dove shaman, hence he never
will be a dove shaman.

>It seems much simpler and more manageable to treat them as existing in
>their own right. It also gives the GM extra, fascinating NPCs to play,
>as the occasion arises. Powerful ones, that don't have to put up with
>bullsh*t when they hear it.

Think of them as Jiminy Cricket, the voice of your conscience. Sure, they're
a part of you, but they're that naggin voice that just won't go away.


J Roberson
Message no. 4
From: Richard Pieri <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: clerics/shamans, demons, road spirits, totems
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 1994 21:06:21 -0500
>>>>> On Wed, 12 Jan 1994 18:33:17 -0600 (CST), RJR96326@****.utulsa.edu
>>>>> said:

R> Well, Catholicsim specifically does, IMHO, lean toward hermeticism, as
R> do most other "established" religions. However, many christian parishes
R> and faiths fit into the shamanic tradition as well; Pentecostalists come
R> to mind.

I feel the need to point out that Christianity does not equal Catholicism;
technically Catholicism is a subsect of Christianity. Not to mention that
the Roman Catholic Church has it's own splinter sects (the Jesuits, the
Knights Templar, the now-defunct Knights Draconis, etc).

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> PGP 2.x Public Key Block available upon request
GAT d@ -p+ c++ !l u+ e+(*) m-(+) s n---(+) h-- f !g(+) w+ t- r+ y+
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There are very few personal problems which cannot be solved with a suitable
application of high explosives.
Message no. 5
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: clerics/shamans, demons, road spirits, totems
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 1994 20:47:10 -0600
R> Well, Catholicsim specifically does, IMHO, lean toward hermeticism, as
R> do most other "established" religions. However, many christian parishes
R> and faiths fit into the shamanic tradition as well; Pentecostalists come
R> to mind.

>I feel the need to point out that Christianity does not equal Catholicism;

Which is why I so cleverly did not refer to all christians as Catholics. If
it wasn't clear before, it is now.


J Roberson
A clever man can build a city. A clever woman can level it.
- Chinese Proverb
Message no. 6
From: Dennis E Watson <dew6171@****.ACNS.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: clerics/shamans, demons, road spirits, totems
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 1994 12:09:37 EST
Greetings.
OK, I'm hooked. I see the place for some kind of minor spirit such as
a road spirit, but I still don't want to use them in my campaign. That's
just the way my campaign is, though, and the idea itself is pretty neat.
As far as domains go, I would say that the road spirit is subject to the
area, and I would probably use a mix of the summoning rules and the
watcher summoning rules to determine the thing, like summoning it like a
spirit, but try for a number of services, and force= successes/2, or some
such. The new rules can be explained away as a new mana threshold
allowind minor domains.
I would still be very careful about implementing this, though. And as
far as domains go, it's not the road name that matters, but the road type.
If the road goes through a town, it isn't a highway, it's a street, and
thus it requires a new spirit. If the road becomes a freeway, new domain.
Total GM discretion would be the way to go.
>
> Well, Catholicsim specifically does, IMHO, lean toward hermeticism, as do
> most other "established" religions. However, many christian parishes and
> faiths fit into the shamanic tradition as well; Pentecostalists come to mind.

This is a can of worms. I agree, in principle, and I think this is
another situation that depends totally on the way the GM wants it to
be. This is something I would talk out with my players, if it came up,
which it hasn't so far.

As far as the Demons and Angels thing goes, If you want it in your
campaign I would develop one kind of spirit for both and just have them
use their powers in different ways. If I remember my occult studies
correctly, Hell is populated by fallen angels, from the fall of pride,
where Lucifer (incorrectly) decided he was equal to and therefore not
subservient to God, and the fall of lust, wherein some angels took such a
liking to certain human activities that they began trading away the
secrets of heaven for certain carnal "favors". No difference in the
spirits, just in methods and desires.
>
> Happiness is a warm, yes it is. . .GUN!
>
Ah, you laugh.

One of my players is a bodyguard archetype, who fell into a party where
there was a Troll Sam, a Druid, and a Mage. The Troll didn't say much,
and worshipped at the temple of self enhancement through cyber. No
essence, and have you ever noticed how high a body index a troll can have?
The mage and Druid did magical things all the time, assensing, summoning,
calling in elementals, amusing themselves with watchers, all of that sort
of thing. The bodyguard decided to make his own totem. He got a big hunk
of wood and carved a Gun totem. It was great roleplaying, and a lot of
fun. We got a lot of laughs out of it.
Just for fun, I decided to have the free ally of a deceased
mage-assassin take up residence there. Rolled him up out of the grimoire,
and got the wealth power, in addition to sorcery and masking. Imagine the
smug feelings of the creator of "Gun" when "Gun" left him a new pistol
and
several clips of explosive ammo on the nightstand, and informed him that
he must use the "blessed ammunition". A religion is born.
Free spirits can explain a lot of things in Shadowrun, and are great as
a plot device. They aren't "just another critter", nor are they "the
mages wierd love affair".

OK, enough rambling. Just my 2c worth.

Dennis Watson

Further Reading

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