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Message no. 1
From: acjpenn@******.com acjpenn@******.com
Subject: Clone question
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 00:26:44 -0500
So I'm perusing my fresh copy of MITS when I'm introduced to the
wonderfully crispy, crunchy, and karma-laden ally spirits. One of the
things a magician can do for his buddy with the "kewl myzdik powerz" is
fashion a body for the spirit to inhabit, ala intelligent golem. A piece
of the rules states a sapient being cannot be used, as the force of
willpower is too great for the spirit to over come. If you've read the
heading, you know where I'm going.
Doc Wagon "grows" clones for their most valuable patients, available three
months after the service begins. The blurb about it in the gear section of
SRIII says these clones are nothing more than a slab of meat, and part of
the docwagon contract is "care and upkeep" of this certain slab.

Since it isn't sapient, can an ally spirit inhabit a clone? Is there any
willpower to overcome?

What if you had a mage who wanted the perfect lover? Badda-bing,
badda-bang, badda-boyfriend (or girlfriend, boyfriend just sounded better)


Questions? Comments? Insane ranting?

Tig Da Pig

Oh, check this out --->
http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2000/06/04/stifgnusa01007.html

Optimistic Apathy: It'll all work out in the end. If it doesn't, who
cares?
Message no. 2
From: Carsten Gehling carsten@**********.dk
Subject: Clone question
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 08:18:10 +0200
From: <acjpenn@******.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2000 7:26 AM


> So I'm perusing my fresh copy of MITS when I'm introduced to the

<snip insane Dr. Frankenstein theories>

> Since it isn't sapient, can an ally spirit inhabit a clone? Is there any
> willpower to overcome?
>
> What if you had a mage who wanted the perfect lover? Badda-bing,
> badda-bang, badda-boyfriend (or girlfriend, boyfriend just sounded better)
>
>
> Questions? Comments? Insane ranting?

Only this: Go take your medication. There now, be a good boy. :-)



But seriously folks... No, I don't buy it. DocWagon clones parts but I don't
believe they have complete human bodies lying around in vats. Likewise, even
if they did, the bodies couldn't go under the term "alive", since they have
no spirits or essence. I think one of the demands of the ally spirit to
inhabit a body is, that it's alive.

> Tig Da Pig

- Carsten
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GC 3.12: GCS/M/P d- s+: a- C+++$>++++ UL++ P+>++ L+ !E W+++$
N+ o K- w+++$ O- M-- V-- PGP t++@ 5+@ X++ R++ tv+(++) b+(++)
DI++ D++ G++ e++ h-- r+++ y+++
Message no. 3
From: Peter Kristiansen sds@**.auc.dk
Subject: Clone question
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 09:38:23 +0200 (W. Europe Daylight Time)
On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Carsten Gehling wrote:

> From: <acjpenn@******.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2000 7:26 AM
>
> > Since it isn't sapient, can an ally spirit inhabit a clone? Is there any
> > willpower to overcome?
> >
> Only this: Go take your medication. There now, be a good boy. :-)
>
> But seriously folks... No, I don't buy it. DocWagon clones parts but I don't
> believe they have complete human bodies lying around in vats. Likewise, even
> if they did, the bodies couldn't go under the term "alive", since they have
> no spirits or essence. I think one of the demands of the ally spirit to
> inhabit a body is, that it's alive.
>
No, an Ally is able to inhabit the body of a chair, well maybe not but
atleast a statue. And if an ally is able to make clay/stone/iron to move
why not meat?

Lets just assume that doc wagon has complete bodies placed in vat.
(didn't shadowtech say that was the way it was done??) Then I want a
body as the container for my ally spirit. Which problems could there be:
If the body has no mind then it's probably incapable of breathing on it
own. It dies. If it is not fed. It dies. Okay, but who cares, the spirit
has the power to inhabit inanimate "things". Yeah but if you thought a
wet night one smelled badly... To keep the body alive you have to teach
your spirit all kinds of things. Maybe the spirit can help the body
breathe, maybe you have to tug around a respirator. At the very least
you have to teach the spirit to eat. How about sleep? The human mind
handles sleep deprivation very poorly, but how about the rest of the
body??

Whups.. rant detected..

Why not just "settle" for Human Form??

No what _I_ want is an Ally inhabiting a comfy-cushy
chair. Transportation and comfort in one O;-)

-----Peter (sds) Kristiansen-----
SRC v0.22 SR1++ SR2+ SR3++ h+ b++(+) B--- UB+ IE+ RN+ W- dk+ sa++ ma++ sh
ad++ ri++ mc-- rk? m- gm M+ P
Message no. 4
From: Carsten Gehling carsten@**********.dk
Subject: Clone question
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 09:57:10 +0200
From: Peter Kristiansen <sds@**.auc.dk>
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2000 9:38 AM


> Lets just assume that doc wagon has complete bodies placed in vat.
> (didn't shadowtech say that was the way it was done??) Then I want a
> body as the container for my ally spirit. Which problems could there be:
> If the body has no mind then it's probably incapable of breathing on it
> own. It dies. If it is not fed. It dies. Okay, but who cares, the spirit
> has the power to inhabit inanimate "things". Yeah but if you thought a
> wet night one smelled badly... To keep the body alive you have to teach
<snip>

Oh great... I was just eating my breakfast and now you had me thinking of a
very rotting carcass wandering the night or worse, the mage having a "great"
intimate time with this ally while arms and other parts falling off.

- Carsten
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GC 3.12: GCS/M/P d- s+: a- C+++$>++++ UL++ P+>++ L+ !E W+++$
N+ o K- w+++$ O- M-- V-- PGP t++@ 5+@ X++ R++ tv+(++) b+(++)
DI++ D++ G++ e++ h-- r+++ y+++
Message no. 5
From: Raveness Ravensbane ravenessravensbane@*****.com
Subject: Clone question
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 06:11:41 -0700 (PDT)
<snip>
> But seriously folks... No, I don't buy it. DocWagon
> clones parts but I don't
> believe they have complete human bodies lying around
> in vats. Likewise, even
> if they did, the bodies couldn't go under the term
> "alive", since they have
> no spirits or essence. I think one of the demands of
> the ally spirit to
> inhabit a body is, that it's alive.
>
> > Tig Da Pig

Someone has alot of brain damage/dead and they keep
the body going in the hospital for weeks/days, and
they still call it "alive".

====~Raveness

http://www.sova.net/trish/roleplaying/shadowrun/pocketsecretary/

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Message no. 6
From: LDYTinne@***.com LDYTinne@***.com
Subject: Clone question
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 10:03:06 EDT
In a message dated 6/6/00 12:23:44 AM Central Daylight Time,
acjpenn@******.com writes:

<< Insane ranting? >>
What a silly question

8*)

She waded in Hip Deep in the Fires of (Hel)
Tinne
Message no. 7
From: acjpenn@******.com acjpenn@******.com
Subject: Clone question
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 11:39:17 -0500
-----Peter (sds) Kristiansen----- sez:
> Lets just assume that doc wagon has complete bodies placed in vat.
> (didn't shadowtech say that was the way it was done??)

I sez:

I don't know about shadowtech, but that's the way the big book says it's
done. At least, that's the way I interpret the rules.

He sez some more stuff:
Then I want a
> body as the container for my ally spirit. Which problems could there be:
> If the body has no mind ...
*snippers snappers*

To which I sez:

I just don't buy having to "teach" a spirit how to act in a given body. I
think if the right spirit was summoned, you wouldn't have to teach it
anything. Besides, the animated spirit becomes the mind and spirit of the
clone body.


again with the sezing:
> Why not just "settle" for Human Form??

Not exact enough. What if I hate someone so much that I'm willing to go
out on a limb for the irony? How funny would it be to face off against
this person, only to have this person realize he's fighting himself? (at
least a clone) What if I've always wanted to be with some supermodel and
I've hunted till I've found her docwagon clone?
Spirits materializing are one thing, but what about an EXACT copy of a
person?

> No what _I_ want is an Ally inhabiting a comfy-cushy
> chair. Transportation and comfort in one O;-)

*imagines binding a spirit to a really cool car, ala NightRider* Ooo baby,
that's it ; p

Tig Da Pig
Optimistic Apathy: It'll all work out, but if it doesn't, who cares?
Message no. 8
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Clone question
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 20:05:54 GMT
>From: <acjpenn@******.com>
<Snip>
>Since it isn't sapient, can an ally spirit inhabit a clone? Is there any
>willpower to overcome?
>
>What if you had a mage who wanted the perfect lover? Badda-bing,
>badda-bang, badda-boyfriend (or girlfriend, boyfriend just sounded better)

Why bother with a body? My shaman made an ally that can take the form of a
guy she liked when she was about twelve, allys are spirits that can
materialise and thereby do whatever you want.

There is also the fact that ally spirits are individuals who make their own
choices so when the greasy litte rat shaman sits there with his ally spirit
shaped like a supermodel and goes "I made a hole, filled it with bones,
danced and you came into existance; you wanna shag me?" she can tell him the
same as every other woman does.

My shaman was warned by her mother (a higher initiate than her) that the
relationship between an ally and a conjourer is very special; you're not
allowed to kiss them.

Phil

It is a fact of life in Earthdawn that characters will fall, usually from
high places.
ED main book, Adventuring in Earthdawn

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Message no. 9
From: Steve Mancini mancini@******.com
Subject: Clone question
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:24:44 -0700 (PDT)
Ahhh allies. A favorite subject of mine since my old days of
wanting to diverge and look into Necromancy (We are talking SR I
here - way before MITS, etc). Anyhoots now that I am settled into
the mode to think on such things...


> Doc Wagon "grows" clones for their most valuable patients, available three
> months after the service begins. The blurb about it in the gear section of
> SRIII says these clones are nothing more than a slab of meat, and part of
> the docwagon contract is "care and upkeep" of this certain slab.

I believe it was SR II - Shadowtech, or possibly in the Doc Wagon
sections where they speak of having a 'Full Clonal" on ice ready
to go - if someone wants a citation I could go digging. So I agree
with ya so far :)


> Since it isn't sapient, can an ally spirit inhabit a clone? Is there any
> willpower to overcome?

IMHO - yer all set. You have flesh that is alive. As for
subsequent posts about the thing staying alive - what about allies
made from living animals? Those beings are alive, non-sentient by
ally terms, and the books offer no caveats about them festering
post-inhabitation. Hence I think you are okay in this avenue, I
don't think they speak of such inhabitations as a Symbiotic
relationship.

Also, while I do not have the book with me, you might look in
MITS under the gimpy meta-magick power, Possession - it might
be good guidelines or have nasty caveats hidden there that you
might consider for this venture if skeptical.

> What if you had a mage who wanted the perfect lover? Badda-bing,
> badda-bang, badda-boyfriend (or girlfriend, boyfriend just sounded better)

Um.. it would work in a pre-pubescent purely physical line of
thinking. Otherwise, you'd have to slip into a D/s a la Gorian
lifestyle - remember that Allies are NOT here cause they love
you -- look at the mechanics in place for their getting loose.
Also "perfect lover" - HARDLY - they ain't human and I doubt
some city spirit was as good with her hands as my ex, _________. :)

Sides.. plastic surgery is cheap.. so is owning a slave. And they
won't have this kick ass Sorcery, and take a point of magic when
they leave (unless they get one HELL of a divorce attorney).


-Da Minotaur
Message no. 10
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Clone question
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 19:05:25 -0700 (PDT)
> > Lets just assume that doc wagon has complete
> bodies placed in vat.
> > (didn't shadowtech say that was the way it was
> done??)
<Snippola(TM)>

Hey, buddy, I resent that!

I do NOT keep bodies in a vat! I...errr...well, let's
just say I installed a dragon-size toilet for a
reason...

*Doc' whistles innocently, while a sound reminiscent
of Niagara Falls emanates from the bathroom behind him...*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 11
From: acjpenn@******.com acjpenn@******.com
Subject: Clone question
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 22:38:30 -0500
> Um.. it would work in a pre-pubescent purely physical line of
> thinking. Otherwise, you'd have to slip into a D/s a la Gorian
> lifestyle - remember that Allies are NOT here cause they love
> you -- look at the mechanics in place for their getting loose.
> Also "perfect lover" - HARDLY - they ain't human and I doubt
> some city spirit was as good with her hands as my ex, _________. :)


Oh, I'm not asking just for that. I appreciate the input! Thanks!

Tig Da Pig
Message no. 12
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Clone question
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 12:30:09 +0200
According to Steve Mancini, at 16:24 on 6 Jun 00, the word on the street
was...

> IMHO - yer all set. You have flesh that is alive. As for
> subsequent posts about the thing staying alive - what about allies
> made from living animals? Those beings are alive, non-sentient by
> ally terms, and the books offer no caveats about them festering
> post-inhabitation. Hence I think you are okay in this avenue, I
> don't think they speak of such inhabitations as a Symbiotic
> relationship.

In fact, it's mentioned that such a body doesn't age as long as the ally
inhabits it (MITS, p. 108). I guess that solves half of the problem...?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

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Message no. 13
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: Clone question
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:02:23 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Mancini" <mancini@******.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2000 6:24 PM
Subject: Re: Clone question


> Ahhh allies. A favorite subject of mine since my old days of
> wanting to diverge and look into Necromancy (We are talking SR I
> here - way before MITS, etc). Anyhoots now that I am settled into
> the mode to think on such things...

... and those goof balls have NEVER been able to replicate the Forensic
style magic or anything even roughly close.

And btw, I always recall the body of the animal to be inhabited to be DEAD,
not alive. I seem to recall that was part of the requirements because I
always seem to want to mentally default to Mike Meunch's "Matchstyx", which
he had to go get a body of a dead animal/critter in question.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
NeoJudas ("K" to Friends)
"Children of the Kernel: Reborn"
(neojudas@******************.com)
Hoosier Hacker House (http://www.hoosierhackerhouse.com/)
Message no. 14
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Clone question
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 17:42:46 GMT
>From: <acjpenn@******.com>
>Not exact enough. What if I hate someone so much that I'm willing to go
>out on a limb for the irony? How funny would it be to face off against
>this person, only to have this person realize he's fighting himself? (at
>least a clone) What if I've always wanted to be with some supermodel and
>I've hunted till I've found her docwagon clone?
>Spirits materializing are one thing, but what about an EXACT copy of a
>person?

*Ponders*

I doesn't actually say in MITS that there is any limits on the form an ally
can take; I therefore use the same ruling as for Illusion spells; anything
the [summoner] has seen can be created (in apperance at least).

Phil

It is a fact of life in Earthdawn that characters will fall, usually from
high places.
ED main book, Adventuring in Earthdawn

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Message no. 15
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Clone question
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:06:56 -0500
On Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:02:23 -0500 "NeoJudas"
<neojudas@******************.com> writes:
<SNIP>
> And btw, I always recall the body of the animal to be inhabited to
> be DEAD,
> not alive. I seem to recall that was part of the requirements
> because I
> always seem to want to mentally default to Mike Meunch's
> "Matchstyx", which
> he had to go get a body of a dead animal/critter in question.

MitS never says the body has to be dead ... It does, however, say that
the form gains Immunity to Age. If the body was a corpse, wouldn't it be
an Immunity to Decompisition? ;)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 16
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: Clone question
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 16:37:40 -0500
From: "Alfredo B Alves" <dghost@****.com>
Subject: Re: Clone question


> MitS never says the body has to be dead ... It does, however, say that
> the form gains Immunity to Age. If the body was a corpse, wouldn't it be
> an Immunity to Decompisition? ;)

Well, in *theory* they are the same thing, but you're right in that it never
actually says one way or the other, only that the animal body in question
must be "suitable" (as per Grimoire; First Edition).

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
NeoJudas ("K" to Friends)
"Children of the Kernel: Reborn"
(neojudas@******************.com)
Hoosier Hacker House (http://www.hoosierhackerhouse.com/)
Message no. 17
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Clone question
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 16:45:15 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Smith <phil_urbanhell@*******.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Thursday, June 08, 2000 3:44 AM
Subject: Re: Clone question


>>From: <acjpenn@******.com>
>>Not exact enough. What if I hate someone so much that I'm willing to go
>>out on a limb for the irony? How funny would it be to face off against
>>this person, only to have this person realize he's fighting himself? (at
>>least a clone) What if I've always wanted to be with some supermodel and
>>I've hunted till I've found her docwagon clone?
>>Spirits materializing are one thing, but what about an EXACT copy of a
>>person?
>
>*Ponders*
>
>I doesn't actually say in MITS that there is any limits on the form an ally
>can take; I therefore use the same ruling as for Illusion spells; anything
>the [summoner] has seen can be created (in apperance at least).
>
>Phil
>
Hmm, wouldn't it be cool to have an ally that looked exactly like the mage?
It would have people wondering exactly what you were.
Message no. 18
From: Herc airwisp@******************.com
Subject: Clone question
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:48:50 -0500
> >From: <acjpenn@******.com>
> >Not exact enough. What if I hate someone so much that I'm willing to go
> >out on a limb for the irony? How funny would it be to face off against
> >this person, only to have this person realize he's fighting himself? (at
> >least a clone) What if I've always wanted to be with some supermodel and
> >I've hunted till I've found her docwagon clone?
> >Spirits materializing are one thing, but what about an EXACT copy of a
> >person?
>
> *Ponders*
>
> I doesn't actually say in MITS that there is any limits on the form an
ally
> can take; I therefore use the same ruling as for Illusion spells; anything
> the [summoner] has seen can be created (in apperance at least).
>
> Phil

-OR- anything that the mage has taken the time to draw and think out on
their own.
Message no. 19
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Clone question
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 10:46:16 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Herc <airwisp@******************.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Thursday, June 08, 2000 11:45 PM
Subject: Re: Clone question


>> >From: <acjpenn@******.com>
>> >Not exact enough. What if I hate someone so much that I'm willing to go
>> >out on a limb for the irony? How funny would it be to face off against
>> >this person, only to have this person realize he's fighting himself? (at
>> >least a clone) What if I've always wanted to be with some supermodel and
>> >I've hunted till I've found her docwagon clone?
>> >Spirits materializing are one thing, but what about an EXACT copy of a
>> >person?
>>
>> *Ponders*
>>
>> I doesn't actually say in MITS that there is any limits on the form an
>ally
>> can take; I therefore use the same ruling as for Illusion spells;
anything
>> the [summoner] has seen can be created (in apperance at least).
>>
>> Phil
>
>-OR- anything that the mage has taken the time to draw and think out on
>their own.
>
(going OT yet again...sorry)
I saw two interesting Clone stroies in old issues of New Scientist yesterday
when I should have been working. First of all, a news report on Dolly the
Sheep. "Dolly is unique..." Think about it :?)
Second, an interview on some Brit radio station about cloning Mammoths and
such. (not exact quote)
Interviewer: "So could you breed an Elephant and a Mammoth together?"
Boffin "Yes, the result would be like breeding a horse and a donkey
together, you'd get a sort of non-viable mule"
Int:"So you'd get a big hairy gorrilla?"
Boffin "...Well, yes, but it would have tusks and be elephant shaped."

Further Reading

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