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Message no. 1
From: Cysgod ac dwr melys <MHILLIARD@******.BITNET>
Subject: cloning
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1993 17:50:02 -0500
Check out the shadowtalk under the entry for Skillwires in the Shadowtech
sourcebook. "Take me from the womb, tabula rasa, and just plug everything
in..."
Now, you just KNOW some corp is looking into this. Meat slaves'd be a lot
cheaper than robots or real people with real rights. And a lot more
co-operative. No outside interests like family to distract them, inbred
loyalty, no minds of their own to question the corp's will. Add the
stamina to take a 20-hour workday seven days a week and a reflex boost
to make them work faster, and you've got a suit's wet dream.
And next year's soldier model, with top-of-the-line simsense memories
and experience courtesy of Desert Wars, bioware from hell, and enough
weapons to barbique the Tir, will certainly make your player's life
interesting.

Phelan the UnD.
Message no. 2
From: "Weird Thoughts Inc." <MKNABUSCH@******.BITNET>
Subject: Cloning
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1993 20:24:47 -0500
There is also a reference to cloning a
person that was 'eaten' by a protean
in the ParaNormal Giude to Europe.
And while I'm thinking of it, the Tom
Dowd story about Harlequin, I don't think
that the thing he was talking to was a
ummm...whats the word, Mad Passion? More
like a weak horror. Check the Wraith entry
in the PnGE. There's a person named H that
calls them horrors. Hmmm. Don't know.
Harlequin
-Aka Michael Knabusch
Message no. 3
From: John Fox <johnf@*****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cloning
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1993 23:41:46 -0500
On Wed, 15 Sep 1993, Weird Thoughts Inc. wrote:

> There is also a reference to cloning a
> person that was 'eaten' by a protean
> in the ParaNormal Giude to Europe.
> And while I'm thinking of it, the Tom
> Dowd story about Harlequin, I don't think
> that the thing he was talking to was a
> ummm...whats the word, Mad Passion? More
> like a weak horror. Check the Wraith entry
> in the PnGE. There's a person named H that
> calls them horrors. Hmmm. Don't know.

I don't see how the two points you made are related. You say, Harlequin
identified a Horror, so in another case he must be talking to one.
As regards to the story, I don't see Horrors as the social types who would
come and chat about the upcoming Horror invasion, and then offer advice on
how to stop it. But thanks for pointing out the H comment. That's new for
me. Also, most horrors are slobbering monsters. Of course, the Wraith
isn't.

John Fox
johnf@*****.edu
Message no. 4
From: Nightfox <DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject: cloning
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 20:51:38 -0700
*****

A little bug with a spear topped with bodies walks out on screen

"Clone Clone!!!"
Spear hits the ground, bodys goo up in the air and flip.

******

Really disgusting, neh?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel Waisley + SCA - March of Ered Sul - Flagstaff AZ
DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU + Nau fencing club.
"Nightfox" + Brotherhood of the Cryptic Demesne - Fencing house
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
" A lack of knowledge is a dangerous thing. I am the most dangerous man in the
universe." - Daniel Waisley "Nightfox"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 5
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: cloning
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 22:04:37 -0600
On Tue, 16 Nov 1993, Nightfox wrote:

> A little bug with a spear topped with bodies walks out on screen
> "Clone Clone!!!"
> Spear hits the ground, bodys goo up in the air and flip.
> ******
>
> Really disgusting, neh?

You need help.

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> Veteran of the Bermuda Triangle
\/ Finger for PGP 2.3a Public Key <=> Expeditionary Force -- 1993-1951
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n-(---) h+(*) f+ g+ w++ t++ r++ y+(*)
Message no. 6
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Cloning
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 21:05:48 EST
Well, If you haven't already heard, science has done it again...In
Britain, researchers (led by one Dr. Ian Wilmut) have cloned a fully
grown adult mammal, a sheep specifically. This was done by fusing a cell
from the adult sheep with an egg cell (previously stripped of the DNA it
had carried) and implanting the egg into another ewe. The lamb was born
in July.

In any case, this development raises many ethical questions, but my
question is not ethical (hopefully). So, here it is: We've figured out
cloning, how might we accomplish some sort of accelerated growth to
produce easily available cloned parts (like in SR)? Any ideas? Biology
majors, speak up:)

--
-Canthros-the-curious
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 7
From: Shawn Baumgartner <Breakdown@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Cloning
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 21:15:41 -0500
In response to the question on cloning:

While at work today, some lady called to ask if a movie was in. When I
told her no, she mumbled a bit, said something about cloning a lamb, and
hung up. I thought she was another video junkie fruitcake, but I guess
that's what she was talking about. As to the question about cloning body
parts, if you dump the ethics, then it's easy: clone the body and remove
what you need. The theory's been around for a long while and has been
implemented on a very small scale (i.e. bacteria), but large scale
cloning has been too difficult until now. If you don't consider a cloned
human body as a living being, then the artificial heart may be near
extinction.

Shawn
Not giving a damn about flesh replacements, but wondering about better
metal replacements! :)

-----------------------------------------------------
Oh No!
Another damn page!
http://www.toptown.com/CENTRALPARK/DEOSYNE/
Ah what the hell; better than gardening!
Message no. 8
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Cloning
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 13:44:13 +0000
|
|Well, If you haven't already heard, science has done it again...In
|Britain, researchers (led by one Dr. Ian Wilmut) have cloned a fully
|grown adult mammal, a sheep specifically. This was done by fusing a cell
|from the adult sheep with an egg cell (previously stripped of the DNA it
|had carried) and implanting the egg into another ewe. The lamb was born
|in July.

Yep. And the important thing was, the cell they used was from the udder of
the sheep, which means they succesfully removed the cells "memory" of what
it was supposed to be....

|In any case, this development raises many ethical questions, but my
|question is not ethical (hopefully). So, here it is: We've figured out
|cloning, how might we accomplish some sort of accelerated growth to
|produce easily available cloned parts (like in SR)? Any ideas? Biology
|majors, speak up:)

I think that's still in the realms of Sci-Fi....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 9
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Cloning
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 16:40:38 EST
On Mon, 24 Feb 1997 21:15:41 -0500 Shawn Baumgartner
<Breakdown@*****.NET> writes:
>In response to the question on cloning:
>
>While at work today, some lady called to ask if a movie was in. When I
>told her no, she mumbled a bit, said something about cloning a lamb,
>and
>hung up. I thought she was another video junkie fruitcake, but I guess
>that's what she was talking about. As to the question about cloning
>body
>parts, if you dump the ethics, then it's easy: clone the body and
>remove
>what you need. The theory's been around for a long while and has been
>implemented on a very small scale (i.e. bacteria), but large scale
>cloning has been too difficult until now. If you don't consider a
>cloned
>human body as a living being, then the artificial heart may be near
>extinction.
>
Well, my question was whether or not it could be done in such a way that
the growth of the clone would be fast enough to be usable (currently the
clone's growth occurs at a normal rate, it's actually born through the
magic of in-vitro fertilization)...In SR, for instance, they can grow a
new body for the replacement parts in a few weeks...Right now, you'd need
years. The other thing is that the cloned parts in SR aren't harvested
from viable clones...the clone itself is non-viable, the Central nervous
system isn't developed, that's why they can't get you a clone for your
brain or spinal cord. But, that's along the lines of what I'm thinking.
So, does anyone out there in SR-land know of any conceivable way that a
clone's growth rate could be increased in such a way that "spare parts"
would be available soon enough to be useful. That is, could the idea of
vat-growth work, and if so, how?

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 10
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Cloning
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:55:26 -0700
L Canthros wrote:
|
| Well, my question was whether or not it could be done in such a way that
| the growth of the clone would be fast enough to be usable...
| So, does anyone out there in SR-land know of any conceivable way that a
| clone's growth rate could be increased in such a way that "spare parts"
| would be available soon enough to be useful. That is, could the idea of
| vat-growth work, and if so, how?

I think so. There are a lot of animals that have a much
faster developmental rate than humans. I think it's just a
matter of a switch somewhere in the DNA. Of course,
finding the switch, and then *changing* it would be the
hard part. Then you would have to deal with the problem of
providing enough (and correct) nutrients to keep up with
the explosive growth. All IMO.

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 11
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cloning
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 20:13:23 -0500
>I think so. There are a lot of animals that have a much
>faster developmental rate than humans. I think it's just a
>matter of a switch somewhere in the DNA. Of course,
>finding the switch, and then *changing* it would be the
>hard part. Then you would have to deal with the problem of
>providing enough (and correct) nutrients to keep up with
>the explosive growth. All IMO.

It's not that easy....those animals have totally different metabolisms, and
it shows up throughout the body. It isn't impossible for us to turn "on"
the genes to send the body into explosive growth, it's just......messy. The
body isn't designed to grow that fast, and you can't change the speed of
growth appreciable without redesigning how we are built.

Not to say it's impossible, just that it will not be one of the first
discoveries.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 12
From: Brian Johnson <john0375@****.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cloning
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 16:39:43 -0600
> So, does anyone out there in SR-land know of any conceivable way that a
> clone's growth rate could be increased in such a way that "spare parts"
> would be available soon enough to be useful. That is, could the idea of
> vat-growth work, and if so, how?

Ok, Livers, If i remember right, grow back (or to) full size in about a
year. I think baby parts have been used in other instances, (Or could).
So you really don't have to accelerate it too much, just about 8x normal
to get a part in a month. umm, steroids?

I do know [well, ]
that an adult liver will grow back to full size from
about 1/4 size in a year, so they could just grow a couple livers, chop
em up, and have a reasonable 'population' of livers that they could take
a few out of and sell every year.

[there is that whole blood type tissue rejection thing, of course.]
Message no. 13
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Cloning
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 12:23:35 +0100
L Canthros said on 16:40/25 Feb 97...

> So, does anyone out there in SR-land know of any conceivable way that a
> clone's growth rate could be increased in such a way that "spare parts"
> would be available soon enough to be useful. That is, could the idea of
> vat-growth work, and if so, how?

I was watching something on Discovery Channel last week where they talked
(mostly in layman's terms) about implants, and growing replacement body
parts also came up. One of the scientists working on it said they expect
to grow limbs in about 8 weeks once the process gets perfected.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I'm not a philosopher, I only have a highschool diploma.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 14
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: Cloning
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 01:25:49 +0000
> From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
> Subject: Re: Cloning

> |cloning, how might we accomplish some sort of accelerated growth to
> |produce easily available cloned parts (like in SR)? Any ideas? Biology
> |majors, speak up:)
>
> I think that's still in the realms of Sci-Fi....

So was cloning a few days ago.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 15
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Cloning
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 01:50:38 +0000
|
|> From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
|> Subject: Re: Cloning
|
|> |cloning, how might we accomplish some sort of accelerated growth to
|> |produce easily available cloned parts (like in SR)? Any ideas? Biology
|> |majors, speak up:)
|>
|> I think that's still in the realms of Sci-Fi....
|
|So was cloning a few days ago.

Troo, troo....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 16
From: Andy Gardner <A.Gardner@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Cloning
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 21:21:44 +0000
Reading through some of the posts I've realised that some people
aren't sure what current day cloning involves.

<lecture mode on>

Everbody has their physical (and, currently debated, possibly mental)
state defined by their genes, which they inherit from their parents.
Their final appearance and capabilites will be determined by the
circumstances of their growth (e.g. if they have too little food they
don't grow fully etc.), but this circumstances will only limit their
physical growth.
At conception everybody starts of as a single cell with a full set of
the genes that that person has. As gestation progresses these cells
multiply and eventually differentiate BUT all cells always possess a
full set of that persons genes.
(BTW, the mechanism that determines differentiation is currently not
well understood)
During this stage the brain and nerves develop just like any other
tissue in the body without any of the restrictions that appear in
adult life.

When cloning a creature (be it sheep, geeps or shoats, or anything
else) all you do is take a single cell and start it down the same
process as a freshly conceived human being. Brain etc therefore pose
no more problem than any other organ.

<lecture mode off>

Hope this helps.
For those to whom I was condescending or boring my apologies.
Whenever I write something I always make sure that I include even
basic background material since I don't know how much the other
person(s) know and I don't get any feed-back as I progress.


Fox on the Net
ICQ UIN - 5239612
Message no. 17
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Cloning
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 22:42:41 +0000
Hmmmm...

Perhaps SRII science can't clone whole people because of magic? I
mean, perhaps aura of clones doesn't exist, or is "twisted" somehow
(like, requiring cybermancy to sustain them)..

That would explain lack of clones running around.

Just my 0.(3)¥


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bea=
r/mike;
Star Wars fan and Amber junkie; FIAWOL; WTF TKD TOO;
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)=
/House Scholae Palatinae
The Russian Express Card Moto: Don't Leave Home!
Message no. 18
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Cloning
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 22:38:24 +0000
In article <199801082126.WAA04490@*****.onet.pl>, Leszek Karlik, aka
Mike <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL> waffled & burbled about Cloning
>Hmmmm...
>
>Perhaps SRII science can't clone whole people because of magic? I
>mean, perhaps aura of clones doesn't exist, or is "twisted" somehow
>(like, requiring cybermancy to sustain them)..

I'm more inclined to think that the reason we don't have clones running
around in Shadowrun is because when the game was being written they were
still a subject of science fiction, not reality, A lot of the things
incorporated into Shadowrun reflect this world's past and present,
making the game head into an alternative future rather than
alternative/parallel world. Also, the potential for abuse if written
into the core rules is frightening.

This was one of the things I was wondering, if the clone is a replicant
of the "parent" then theoretically the aura would be the same. However,
/if/ the clone is not a perfect replica (ie the manner of thought,
opinions and teaching is different) then the aura might also be
different. A mind makes the person as much as the body. A different
mind, manner of thought would make someone "different", that's why they
say no two people are alike. We all have physical replicas, but the
chances of finding someone who has experienced exactly the same things,
and thinks exactly the same way aer nigh on impossible. It is this
which makes us all individual.

And that's where the clone comes in. If it is grown fromthe cell of
another, it will resemble the other in all possible ways, if most of the
SF buffs are correct, it will not have the memories of the other (not
without simsense link throughout the life of the parent - hmmm the mega
rich anyone?) which would seem to indicate that the aura would be
different, meaning it's not a perfect clone - if however, the aura is
similar, then that could make for very difficult processes when things
like ritual magic are employed. A mage seeking a target through the use
of Ritual Magic. Now say that person is the kidnapped CEO of some mega
corp, he has four clones to replace him when he's "engaged", the board
pulls one of the clones out to cover for his disappearance to protect
stocks and shares, the corps mages using personal articles start a
ritual... but he's got four clones - would they find five subjects, or
/one/ of the five?

How much would magic affect the creation and accuracy of a clone. If
clones are created and grown from a cellular level, it /should/ be
possible to replicate a mage - magic is contained within the genes of
the mage anyway (supposedly) even though they don't understand how magic
manifests indications are that it is genetic. Mind you, allowing for
the analytical evidence of genetic strings that are possible now (OK,
it's not 100%, and not fully understood) in 62 years, witht he massive
advances in macrotechnology, microelectronics, genegeneering etc, the SR
biotechs would have more knowledge than current biologists. (They found
the metagene after all) :) This seems to hint that magic is not
genetic, so it's not part of the DNA strands that make up the
individual. If one cloned a mage, would you get a mundane? Or a Mage?


Cloning without memories would produce a meat shell. Either simsense or
BTL (or both) teaching processes could include much of a person's life.
Good interrogators could get tremendous amounts of information from
someone they questioned, but there would be no way to produce 100%
accuracy without exporting one mind to another (again a subject of SF)
So, without a 100% compatibility, would the clone be better for having
less of the memories that clutter up a persons mind or worse? He'd
certainly be as effective in the market place with the right
programming, even to the point of being able to replace someone in
business without anyone (except those closest to the subject) knowing.

How much do we actually know about the people we share our lives with?
If they were replaced with someone who was similar in all ways but a few
memories we might not know of - how would a person tell it wasn't the
original? Would it matter?

Does this thread actually mean anything? - Well, in a way yes. I want
to explore cloning as a deeper subject in my games for a variety of
purposes, and not just to frag about with the players (I do that anyway,
without extra add ins). But it has a wide variety of possibilities and
purposes.

One "semi comedy" I saw years ago, had a clone replace a government
agent while on a mission (inactive placement was in a shoeshop), in the
end, the clone became a better salesman and the manager was going spare
trying to figure out why the salesman kept changing from a competent guy
to a complete nitwit. I believe a clonal (robotic) replacement was also
used in "The Last Starfighter", which added an amusing side to the
process.


I've got plenty of ideas myself, but the list has a habit of hitting
places I've never considered reaching for.


--
Dark Avenger -:- http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk/index.htm -
Unofficial Shadowtk Newbies Guide, Edgerunners Datastore &
Beginnings of the Underseas Sourcebook.
http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.sims/index.htm - Alternative UK Sourcebook
(U/C)
Message no. 19
From: David Lightfinger <lightfinger@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Cloning
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:26:23 -0600
Avenger wrote:
>
> In article <199801082126.WAA04490@*****.onet.pl>, Leszek Karlik, aka
> Mike <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL> waffled & burbled about Cloning
> >Hmmmm...
> >
> >Perhaps SRII science can't clone whole people because of magic? I
> >mean, perhaps aura of clones doesn't exist, or is "twisted" somehow
> >(like, requiring cybermancy to sustain them)..
>
> I'm more inclined to think that the reason we don't have clones running
> around in Shadowrun is because when the game was being written they were
> still a subject of science fiction, not reality, A lot of the things
> incorporated into Shadowrun reflect this world's past and present,
> making the game head into an alternative future rather than
> alternative/parallel world. Also, the potential for abuse if written
> into the core rules is frightening.

All well and true. However, one Shadowrun novel's entire storyline was
about the first successful clone, and the fact it committed the same
sort of murders that its original body did... the clone being from Jack
the Ripper. Clones, therefore, do exist in Shadowrun but are not for
player characters, and are extremely rare for the reasons you later
give, Avenger.

--Lightfinger
Message no. 20
From: NightLife <habenir@*****.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cloning
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 18:51:47 -0500
>All well and true. However, one Shadowrun novel's entire storyline was
>about the first successful clone, and the fact it committed the same
>sort of murders that its original body did... the clone being from Jack
>the Ripper. Clones, therefore, do exist in Shadowrun but are not for
>player characters, and are extremely rare for the reasons you later
>give, Avenger.
>
>--Lightfinger

But as with any of us novel may or may not be considered canon material. So
it's better to wait and see if a sourcebook like Shadowtechto answer a
question like this. But if memory serves the clone of Jack also had magical
components to it's make up. I'm not to sure something to do with the damn
IE's. It's been a long time since I read that one.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

"I am telling you nothing - merely asking you to remember that death come in
many shades. Some are harsh and infinitely painful to look upon; others can be
as peaceful and beautiful as the setting sun. I am an artist, and many colors
lie on upon my palette. Let me paint him a rainbow, and give you the means to
decide where it ends."

Erik from the book Phantom.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 21
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Cloning
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 01:09:46 +0000
In article <34B5609F.F2A220EE@****.com>, David Lightfinger
<lightfinger@****.COM> waffled & burbled about Cloning
>Avenger wrote:
>> I'm more inclined to think that the reason we don't have clones running
>> around in Shadowrun is because when the game was being written they were
>> still a subject of science fiction, not reality, A lot of the things
>> incorporated into Shadowrun reflect this world's past and present,
>> making the game head into an alternative future rather than
>> alternative/parallel world. Also, the potential for abuse if written
>> into the core rules is frightening.
>
>All well and true. However, one Shadowrun novel's entire storyline was
>about the first successful clone, and the fact it committed the same
>sort of murders that its original body did... the clone being from Jack
>the Ripper. Clones, therefore, do exist in Shadowrun but are not for
>player characters, and are extremely rare for the reasons you later
>give, Avenger.

This is going to sound terribly rude, and it really isn't intended as
such, but I can't accept that as "presence" in Shadowrun. I don't
consider the novels canon for my games, and I know a lot of others that
don't.

However, most of my questions have nothing whatsoever to do with canon
either, which sort of means I'm contradicting myself. Also, I believe
the novel involved the IE and magic, which was something I wanted to
steer well clear of.

Especially the IE. (Please don't ask why. I don't think the list could
take it anymore.)

No offence intended.

--
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http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.sims - Alternative UK Sourcebook (U/C)
Message no. 22
From: David Lightfinger <lightfinger@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Cloning
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 20:35:26 -0600
Avenger wrote:
>
> In article <34B5609F.F2A220EE@****.com>, David Lightfinger
> <lightfinger@****.COM> waffled & burbled about Cloning
> >Avenger wrote:
> >> I'm more inclined to think that the reason we don't have clones running
> >> around in Shadowrun is because when the game was being written they were
> >> still a subject of science fiction, not reality, A lot of the things
> >> incorporated into Shadowrun reflect this world's past and present,
> >> making the game head into an alternative future rather than
> >> alternative/parallel world. Also, the potential for abuse if written
> >> into the core rules is frightening.
> >
> >All well and true. However, one Shadowrun novel's entire storyline was
> >about the first successful clone, and the fact it committed the same
> >sort of murders that its original body did... the clone being from Jack
> >the Ripper. Clones, therefore, do exist in Shadowrun but are not for
> >player characters, and are extremely rare for the reasons you later
> >give, Avenger.
>
> This is going to sound terribly rude, and it really isn't intended as
> such, but I can't accept that as "presence" in Shadowrun. I don't
> consider the novels canon for my games, and I know a lot of others that
> don't.
>
> However, most of my questions have nothing whatsoever to do with canon
> either, which sort of means I'm contradicting myself. Also, I believe
> the novel involved the IE and magic, which was something I wanted to
> steer well clear of.
>
> Especially the IE. (Please don't ask why. I don't think the list could
> take it anymore.)
>
> No offence intended.
>

None taken.

Honestly, I haven't read the book, nor do I plan to in the near future.
So, no I don't incorporate it in the game either.

Unfortunately for some, though, they do take everything as written as
law. (I won't mention anyIVYone's name here about this :-) And though I
do use IEs with my game, my method of using them is no where near the
way FASA has portrayed them in either sourcebooks or novels :-)

I also do not use other pieces of 'canon' either, like Winternight or
the Vampire Conspiracy sections of Threats. A good GM will pick and
choose.

I will say, though, that if we are already close to the cloning process,
I cannot fault a GM if they wish to use it or say that such should be
possible. Science has changed a lot in the past 50 years, and such a
breakthrough is not inconceiveable...

--Lightfinger
Message no. 23
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Cloning
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 03:13:47 +0000
In article <34B58CEE.A600826E@****.com>, David Lightfinger
<lightfinger@****.COM> waffled & burbled about Cloning
>Avenger wrote:

>> However, most of my questions have nothing whatsoever to do with canon
>> either, which sort of means I'm contradicting myself. Also, I believe
>> the novel involved the IE and magic, which was something I wanted to
>> steer well clear of.
>>
>> Especially the IE. (Please don't ask why. I don't think the list could
>> take it anymore.)
>>
>> No offence intended.
>>
>
>None taken.

Jolly good, that's a relief. I have a fascinating habit of irritating
the most unusual people. :)

>Honestly, I haven't read the book, nor do I plan to in the near future.
>So, no I don't incorporate it in the game either.
>
>Unfortunately for some, though, they do take everything as written as
>law. (I won't mention anyIVYone's name here about this :-)

Yes, I've noticed. However, as they say "Each to their own." Nobody is
right or wrong to say whether or not the books are canon for material,
though the general consensus from the Palace seems to be no.

>And though I
>do use IEs with my game, my method of using them is no where near the
>way FASA has portrayed them in either sourcebooks or novels :-)

I've hinted that immortals may exist, but there is no confirmation,
background or otherwise in my games. There are plenty of powerful and
greedy people to pick on without the silly stuff.

>I also do not use other pieces of 'canon' either, like Winternight or
>the Vampire Conspiracy sections of Threats. A good GM will pick and
>choose.

Vampire Conspiracy. Yes... I read the Vampire Kingdoms from Rifts, and
although it has some interesting ideas, it's savagely over the top.
Fasa's implementation of Vampires and other - shall we say - enemies,
has not exactly enamoured me to the subject in Shadowrun. I've used a
vampire as an opponent in a game, but that was for an alternative rather
than standard game. That sort of thing IMHO belongs in Dark Conspiracy,
not Shadowrun - but then, who am I to say? :)

>I will say, though, that if we are already close to the cloning process,
>I cannot fault a GM if they wish to use it or say that such should be
>possible. Science has changed a lot in the past 50 years, and such a
>breakthrough is not inconceiveable...

About as close as a scientist in Chicago starting up a clinic to help
those who can't have children or have difficulty conceiving - this year.
According to an interview with him on CNN last night, if the US
government oppose him he will take the whole operation to Mexico - where
presumably they'll entertain him.

Kinda scarey really. The ability to create a new person through a
natural process, that is a perfect twin of the donor. The facility for
abuse is horrendous, especially for those with the money to do so.
Imagine 50 Bill Gates' running around the planet, all brought up by his
organisation. <g>

--
Dark Avenger -:- http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk/index.htm -
Unofficial Shadowtk Newbies Guide, Edgerunners Datastore &
Beginnings of the Underseas Sourcebook.
http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.sims/index.htm - Alternative UK Sourcebook
(U/C)
Message no. 24
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Cloning
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 12:51:09 -0600
For the mere cost of a Thaum, Fade wrote:
/
/ DB wrote:
/ > Also, in the sidebar the table reflects that small organs, large
/ > organs, hands/feet, and limbs can be cloned, but it doesn't mention the
/ > torso. Hmmm... Doesn't say that it's available. However, it doesn't
/ > state that it can't be done. <shrug>
/
/ I'd think that might be because, if you need your entire torso
/ replaced, you're definitely past the point where you need a doctor.
/ You need an undertaker.
/
/ ;)

<Homer> Doh! </Homer>

That didn't even cross my mind... :)

-David Buehrer
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 25
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Cloning
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 22:35:53 -0500
On Sat, 24 Oct 1998 12:51:09 -0600 David Buehrer
<dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG> writes:
>For the mere cost of a Thaum, Fade wrote:
<SNIP>
>/ I'd think that might be because, if you need your entire torso
>/ replaced, you're definitely past the point where you need a doctor.
>/ You need an undertaker.
>/
>/ ;)

><Homer> Doh! </Homer>
>
>That didn't even cross my mind... :)

Well ... If a char had a full body cyber replacement, s/he may want to go
back. In that case, s/he may need torso and head replacements ...

bOb: "Sorry boss, can't come in today. I'm still recovering from the
head replacement on Tuesday."

bOss: "Head replacement, hunh?" (Maybe this one will work right.) "Okay,
come back in when you can."

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

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Message no. 26
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrun)
Subject: cloning
Date: Tue Oct 2 13:40:01 2001
the throng argued about cloning

> magus factor

psychology thinks that it works like this , behavioural
conditions and genetic conditions make you who you are
(simplified), depending on your personal viewpoint depends
on ratio , now clones in theory have an exact genetic copy
of the
parent , if magus factor is based at a genetic level then
the clone will have magic 25% or better of the time, not
necessarily the same magic ,after all your life consists of
behavioural factors too
don't forget that some will not realise their potential , or
will follow a different path ( say hermetic and not shamanic
, or adept instead of full blown , or bear instead of wolf
, or magic active and magic as yet undiscovered)

> organlegging

if your view is a adult/child clone consider the following
, the organ you implant will have the accelerated growth
patterns that forced it into it's age level very rapidly
growing too fast ( hahns can correct me on this but isn't
cancer just misformed fast growing cells (layman please) ?)
it will create many problems , vat grown cloned organs would
more than likely come from a child clone ( sick as this
thought is ) and would be a concious decision made by the
character early in life as to whether they approved of the
treatment of clones ( yep we need that liver , two kidneys a
heart and oh yes don't forget the digestive tract , what is
left ?) and whether they have the funds available to keep
their clone alive (think of it like life insurance pay your
premiums have
peace of mind) , your clone would be kept unconcious ,
probably through drugs , and would not develop normally
think it has to run , breathe , get chicken pox etc) legs
would lack strength and conformation ( even with muscle
stimulation ) lungs would be kept at a rest state never used
in activity , the liver and kidneys would not have had to
filter out alcohol , and numerous other problems arise from
static conditions

if on the other hand you have a clone colony , of second
class citizins that leads to all kinds of interesting Sci-fi
stories , such as a clone revolt , clone rights , can they
find your clone in time , clones develop their own society
,etc

>Bioware

okay bioware cyberware is not part of the original dna
strain and could be answered quite simply like this the
children of a bioware enhanced organism are not bioware
enhanced themselves , similarly simply because you add
muscle augs to your body does not mean you change your
fertility dna , (cloning is almost like having sex with
yourself ......maybe i shouldn't go there) but your dna is
matched with another copy of your dna (at present only
available to women , guys) basically you create an almost
replicant of yourself ( you still have a certain chance to
carry forward certain genetic diseases ,cystic fibrosis(CF)
etc and could quite possibly worsen your level of genetic
disease ie you are a CF carrier if you have offspring with
another CF carrier the chances are one in four that you
induce full blown CF into your child/clone ( both parents
are healthy) the clone would have certain characteristics
that were lying dormant in you , but i am not going to go
any further into genetics as i am sure some of you studied a
lot more eugenics than I have , after all my study is purely
foundation)

Kanniemeernie Korperaal
budding cyberpsychologist ;o)
" those who come seeking peace without treaty are plotting"
SUN-TZU
Message no. 27
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Hahns Shin)
Subject: cloning
Date: Wed Oct 3 20:05:01 2001
> > magus factor
<snippity>
> parent , if magus factor is based at a genetic level then
> the clone will have magic 25% or better of the time, not
> necessarily the same magic ,after all your life consists of
> behavioural factors too
Hmm. In Shadowtech, it describes the magus factor not as an
inheritable trait (i.e. it isn't just a single gene, so the rules of
Mendelian genetics do not apply... no neat 25%/50% here), but as
either multifactoral inheritance, intron expression, or metagenetic
folding of the chromosome (weighing heavily on the last option). In
other words, there is no accurate way to predict the magus factor...
in fact, the scientist from Universal Omnitech in Shadowtech isn't
sure the thing actually exists.

> don't forget that some will not realise their potential , or
> will follow a different path ( say hermetic and not shamanic
> , or adept instead of full blown , or bear instead of wolf
> , or magic active and magic as yet undiscovered)
Again, the magus factor may or may not exist. Totems may seek the
magically active, or they may simply choose appropriate and
like-minded humans. There may be totemic "avatars" nudging the human
genome toward magical expression, much like the Xel Naga and the
Protoss/Zerg in Starcraft.

> > organlegging
>
> if your view is a adult/child clone consider the following
> , the organ you implant will have the accelerated growth
> patterns that forced it into it's age level very rapidly
> growing too fast ( hahns can correct me on this but isn't
> cancer just misformed fast growing cells (layman please) ?)
Basically you are correct. Neoplasms contain cells that don't know
when to quit (apoptosis). Most cells die after a certain number of
divisions, but neoplastic cells continue to grow and divide. They lose
contact inhibition (they start expanding against other cells rather
than maintaining borders) and their DNA starts to transcribe/replicate
at an unnatural rate. Cancer occurs when the neoplastic cells invade
tissues other than its "home tissue".

However, cloning from a germline cell simply to create a single organ
should not have any untoward effects... a good example is a liver
autograft. If you take out a portion of a liver, remove the rest of
the liver, and implant the liver back again, then it will regenerate
(more or less) into a functioning organ (note: NOT a good way to avoid
alcoholic cirrhosis... there are many other factors involved in the
etiology of that disease). If you were cloning to create a new living
being, however, you will run into problems. Scientists speculate that
mammal eggs have a "appropriate growth factor" that nudges a natural
fertilized cell to develop the proper way. Since cloned cells bypass
the egg, strange abberations of the genome may turn out.

> it will create many problems , vat grown cloned organs would
> more than likely come from a child clone ( sick as this
> thought is ) and would be a concious decision made by the
> character early in life as to whether they approved of the
> treatment of clones ( yep we need that liver , two kidneys a
> heart and oh yes don't forget the digestive tract , what is
> left ?) and whether they have the funds available to keep
> their clone alive (think of it like life insurance pay your
> premiums have
> peace of mind) , your clone would be kept unconcious ,
> probably through drugs , and would not develop normally
> think it has to run , breathe , get chicken pox etc) legs
> would lack strength and conformation ( even with muscle
> stimulation ) lungs would be kept at a rest state never used
> in activity , the liver and kidneys would not have had to
> filter out alcohol , and numerous other problems arise from
> static conditions
If it were not Shadowrun, I would agree with you on all accounts. But
the Shadowrun tech curve could probably handle the rigors of keeping
an unused body in stasis for at least a few years... heck, current
medical science can keep alive braindead people for an estimate of
decades. Atrophy would be a problem, but given a choice, would you
rather have an atrophic kidney or machine dialysis for the rest of
your life? Realize that you can't replace the kidney with an
implant... there are far too many life-sustaining homeostasis
functions involved. Organ cloning would be used only for organs that
have no appropriate cyber-replacement, or in individuals with immune
dysfunction.

> if on the other hand you have a clone colony , of second
> class citizins that leads to all kinds of interesting Sci-fi
> stories , such as a clone revolt , clone rights , can they
> find your clone in time , clones develop their own society
> ,etc
Welcome to Shadowrun. :-) I love situations and dilemmas like this,
because they allow your players to ask serious questions about
society, their world view, etc., and apply them to acting/role-playing
situations. It's a great learning tool, and a lot of fun besides.
Clone revolts are a bit much, but with the SINless, anything is
possible.

> >Bioware
<snip comments about bioware>
The organ doesn't even have to have the same DNA (but it helps,
especially if the person has a tendancy toward arthritis or lupus).
Apparently, there are self, non-self antigens (most of it is in HLA
typing, but there are some undiscovered genetic "ID"s) on the surface
of cells that tell the body to accept/reject grafts. If you suppress
the immune system or manage to manipulate the genome to produce the
appropriate antigens (the second is more likely, given the tech curve
of SR), then you won't have to worry about integration/rejection...
much. This is one of the hot fields in medical science right now, and
most of the anti-rejection transplant technology we have today has
been developed in the past decade... and a lot of it is an
inconsequential side effect from all the money pouring into AIDS
research. What better way is there to learn about the immune system
than to study a virus that takes out the immune system?

> that were lying dormant in you , but i am not going to go
> any further into genetics as i am sure some of you studied a
> lot more eugenics than I have , after all my study is purely
> foundation)
Eugenics is another thing entirely. It is more of a dogma than a
science (or at least, it has been historically). Eugenics is based on
the assumption that removing "undesirable" elements from the gene pool
will create of civil, well-mannered super race that will persist
because the offspring will inherit only the "desirable" elements. It
is the legacy of not only the Nazi's, but industrial England and
America as well... think of the forced sterilizations of the mentally
ill in the early 1900's. Or lobotomies, for that matter. A lot of
countries have tried eugenics in the name of progress... it makes me
sick.

> Kanniemeernie Korperaal
> budding cyberpsychologist ;o)
Oh really? Perhaps when I get out of this med school hellhole, we can
start a practice. I can install the ware, and you can deal with the
cyberpsychoses. Call the HMOs. :-)

MAN this passage is long. Sorry about that.

Hahns Shin, MS II
Budding cybersurgeon
"Fairy tales do not tell children the dragons exist. Children already
know that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children the dragons can be
killed."
-G. K. Chesterton
Message no. 28
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Achille Autran)
Subject: Cloning
Date: Thu Oct 4 20:25:01 2001
From: "Hahns Shin" <Hahns_Shin@*******.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 18:53:09 -0500

> Basically you are correct. Neoplasms contain cells that don't know
> when to quit (apoptosis). Most cells die after a certain number of
> divisions, but neoplastic cells continue to grow and divide. They lose
> contact inhibition (they start expanding against other cells rather
> than maintaining borders) and their DNA starts to transcribe/replicate
> at an unnatural rate. Cancer occurs when the neoplastic cells invade
> tissues other than its "home tissue".
>
> However, cloning from a germline cell simply to create a single organ
> should not have any untoward effects... a good example is a liver
> autograft. If you take out a portion of a liver, remove the rest of
> the liver, and implant the liver back again, then it will regenerate
> (more or less) into a functioning organ (note: NOT a good way to avoid
> alcoholic cirrhosis... there are many other factors involved in the
> etiology of that disease). If you were cloning to create a new living
> being, however, you will run into problems. Scientists speculate that
> mammal eggs have a "appropriate growth factor" that nudges a natural
> fertilized cell to develop the proper way. Since cloned cells bypass
> the egg, strange abberations of the genome may turn out.

Mmmm... You think that we can culture cells from a specific organ by
picking some cells from that organ before differentiation, and get the
good organ nevertheless? It's the whole debate "cells create the shape"
or "shapes direct cell developpment", and it's a bit more complex, isn't
it? I'm far from knowledgeable on animal physiology/genetics, but from
what I gathered on plants there are strong feedbacks from differentiated
cells on mutliplying cells that regulate multiplication (and maintain
the tissue borders) and select toward what specialty multiplying cells
will differente. It's of course an extremely complex subject, but
doesn't that kind of feedbacks imply that some genuine, differentiated
organ cells in the immediate neighbourhood of the neoplasm (that's the
pool of mutliplying cells, if I understood you right. Like the meristem
in plants) are important for correct organs (re)generation? The liver
being a special case, since IIRC it has a very simple geometry and
multiplying cells everywhere throughout the tissue, which makes
autograft possible and so efficient. I presume it gets ugly in
embriology...

That triggered a thought: forced growth could be about partially
inhibiting those control feedbacks on neoplasms, so as to get a bigger
multipying pool, yet keeping proper differentiation and organ
functionnality. Since cells populations growth is exponential, having
neoplasms twice as large would mean two times shorter growth time.
Forced growth would be stopped by re-introducing the feedback genes
through "casual" viral gene therapy, or some sort of hormonal
triggering. Something akin to a controlled, stoppable cancer.

Well, just an idea, but it somehow made sense to me.

And no problem for the long messages.

Molloy

Further Reading

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