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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Dan Turek)
Subject: Cloning and Bioware
Date: Fri Sep 28 12:45:01 2001
Everyone seems to agree cryogenics would work by 2060 - what are people's
view of cloning in 2060? Obviously you can clone parts, which means
basically the whole body. I think I read (in one of the older editions) they
still had a problem developing the nervous system to maturity (and it
couldn't be quick grown). Of course, that was written before all the media
on stem cell research. Since bioware exists that could replace as well as
enhance the nervous system, does anyone think anything other than
brain-death is truly inoperable? I'm mainly asking since in my campaign one
character beheaded an NPC with a monowhip (eight successes on a surprise
action) and in the old rules the person could NOT be brought back. However,
a person in the NPC's group found him within two minutes and would have cast
Stabilize (even if it was pointless) and a monowhip should leave an
exceedingly clean cut....

On a different matter, what would the laws regarding clone rights be? Or the
opinion of the average citizen?

What would a clone have - obviously the Physical Attributes of a person, but
would it have the same Magical abilites, though latent, since it is in the
DNA? While mages and shamans have to train to use their powers, would a
physical adept have to?

If your base body has bioware, and after it has set in you clone that body,
would the clones have the bioware since it is genengineered?

Yes, I grab a random issue of GrimJack when I don't know what I want to run
for the day :)

I would assume the mental attributes would start at 1 for a clone, but could
develop over a long span of time, say one point per year. I don't think
skillchip or BTL tech is advanced enough to give memories though. What is
the popular opinion?

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Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (BD)
Subject: Cloning and Bioware
Date: Fri Sep 28 15:50:01 2001
--- Dan Turek <danturek@*******.com> wrote:
> Everyone seems to agree cryogenics would work by 2060 - what are people's
> view of cloning in 2060? Obviously you can clone parts, which means
> basically the whole body.

To clarify, in SR you need to clone the whole body to harvest one part.

> I think I read (in one of the older editions) they
> still had a problem developing the nervous system to maturity (and it
> couldn't be quick grown). Of course, that was written before all the
> media
> on stem cell research. Since bioware exists that could replace as well as
> enhance the nervous system, does anyone think anything other than
> brain-death is truly inoperable?

Lots of things are. Cancer's still a bogeyman in SR times, and VITAS is
no picnic either. If you mean losing parts of the body, then maybe you're
right, most things are replaceable. The thing is, most folks don't have a
spare clone hanging around that they can pluck parts from... DocWagon
clients might, but the general populace probably won't ($415 per month is
damned expensive for most people). So while cloning might be able to fix a
bunch of things, it's out of reach for a lot of folks.

> I'm mainly asking since in my campaign one
> character beheaded an NPC with a monowhip (eight successes on a surprise
> action) and in the old rules the person could NOT be brought back.
> However,
> a person in the NPC's group found him within two minutes and would have
> cast Stabilize (even if it was pointless) and a monowhip should leave an
> exceedingly clean cut....

I'd say that use of Stabilize would have been pretty illogical... you can
do what you want, I guess, but even magic has its limits. The guys might
not bleed from his neck anymore, but he woulnd't be getting any oxygen to
his brain, either... :)

> On a different matter, what would the laws regarding clone rights be? Or
> the opinion of the average citizen?

None. They're not considered human, according to Man and Machine.

> What would a clone have - obviously the Physical Attributes of a person,
> but
> would it have the same Magical abilites, though latent, since it is in
> the
> DNA? While mages and shamans have to train to use their powers, would a
> physical adept have to?

A clone of an Awakened person cannot be considered magically active,
according (again) to M&M.

> If your base body has bioware, and after it has set in you clone that
> body, would the clones have the bioware since it is genengineered?

Naw, I wouldn't say. Bioware's still a foreign entity to the body. I
don't know anything about genetics, but it sounds dodgy.

> I would assume the mental attributes would start at 1 for a clone, but
> could
> develop over a long span of time, say one point per year. I don't think
> skillchip or BTL tech is advanced enough to give memories though. What is
> the popular opinion?

My opinion is, clones are meat, non-sentient. The force-growing
procedure removes all chance of humanity. That's just a layman's thought,
though. :)

====-Boondocker

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Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: Cloning and Bioware
Date: Fri Sep 28 17:05:02 2001
> What would a clone have - obviously the Physical Attributes of a person, but
> would it have the same Magical abilites, though latent, since it is in the
> DNA? While mages and shamans have to train to use their powers, would a
> physical adept have to?

Mentally, a clone is just a big newborn baby, at most. Most of the times he will
be an underdeveloped vegetable, in "suspended animation". Even if you rule that
a character's magical talent does transfer to a clone, the clone will have to learn his
magic (be it spells or adept powers) all over again, because magic has a lot to do with
the character's mind.

A good use for a clone is as a "spare body", and a method to stay young
that is simpler than Leónization. Just grow a clone body that matches your
specifications and have your brain transplanted into it. Enemies can come back from the
dead under the proper circunstances, and most 80 year-old corp executives will look
decades younger.

I don't think bioware would naturally "grow" inside the clone, because
it isn't part of your original genome, but the person ordering the clone can have any
bioware or cyberware implanted into it, if they want.

There is no such thing as "clone civil rights" - a clone is just spare
parts, always kept safely in storage. If one suffers a "brain transplant", it's
not really a "clone" anymore, it's the original person in a new body.

--
Bira -- SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://www.shadowland.com.br
Redator de Shadowrun da RPG em Revista
http://www.rpgemrevista.f2s.com
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Thorger_SÃŒnert)
Subject: Cloning and Bioware
Date: Fri Sep 28 17:25:01 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Turek <danturek@*******.com>
<Snip>
> I would assume the mental attributes would start at 1 for a clone,
but could
> develop over a long span of time, say one point per year. I don't
think
> skillchip or BTL tech is advanced enough to give memories though.
What is
> the popular opinion?

Try out PersonafixBTLs and the PAB.

Dixie Flatline anyone ?



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Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Maxfield)
Subject: Cloning and Bioware
Date: Sat Sep 29 01:30:01 2001
Records show that at 02:40 on Saturday 29/09/01, Dan Turek scribbled:
>on stem cell research. Since bioware exists that could replace as well as
>enhance the nervous system, does anyone think anything other than
>brain-death is truly inoperable? I'm mainly asking since in my campaign one

That's the way it works in my game.

>character beheaded an NPC with a monowhip (eight successes on a surprise
>action) and in the old rules the person could NOT be brought back. However,
>a person in the NPC's group found him within two minutes and would have cast
>Stabilize (even if it was pointless) and a monowhip should leave an
>exceedingly clean cut....

Although the brain stays alive for some time after a beheading, I'd say
there would be some serious brain degradation by two minutes. Assuming the
NPC had a body of 6, two minutes is technically correct for the length of
time for a deadly wound to degrade to death on the overflow track,
according to the rules, but a beheading needs some special GM
determinations. For example, I would not allow a beheaded character to
self-stabilize. :-)

Nor would I allow the Stabilize spell to keep the head alive in this
situation - though I would say it slowed down the "dying" by adding the
spell's force to the character's body for determining overflow progression.
On the other hand, a combination of Stabilize with sustained Oxygenate and
Nutrition spells may keep the head alive indefinitely, and Petrify would be
perfect for preventing death and transporting the head to high tech life
support equipment.

>On a different matter, what would the laws regarding clone rights be? Or the
>opinion of the average citizen?

The laws would vary from nation to nation and people's opinions would vary
from person to person. I'd say the situation would be very similar to
today's laws on foetuses.

>What would a clone have - obviously the Physical Attributes of a person, but

No. A persons physical attributes are as much the result of life experience
as well as genetic potential.

>would it have the same Magical abilites, though latent, since it is in the
>DNA? While mages and shamans have to train to use their powers, would a
>physical adept have to?

Are you talking about putting a head on a cloned body? If so, major
retraining I'd say. A cloned body would be genetically identical but not
completely physically identical. The magical potential would probably still
be in the cloned flesh but the dramatic shock of a new body would be sure
to require a major geasa or two. :-)

If you're not talking about putting a head on a cloned body, then I don't
understand the question. A cloned body is just an adult-sized new-born
infant (which is why I doubt the medtechs would allow a brain to grow in
the clone). It might have the same magical potential as the genome-parent
but that is still not fully understood in 2062. If it was magical, it would
have to train from scratch like any other child.

>If your base body has bioware, and after it has set in you clone that body,
>would the clones have the bioware since it is genengineered?

No. The bioware is not in the body's genome.

>I would assume the mental attributes would start at 1 for a clone, but could
>develop over a long span of time, say one point per year. I don't think
>skillchip or BTL tech is advanced enough to give memories though. What is
>the popular opinion?

If a brain was allowed to grow in the cloned body then it is the brain of a
new-born infant. I don't think there is any tech in Shadowrun that allows
the inscribing of life-experience memories on a new-born brain other than
just living it.

Chris

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