Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Cloning Revisited and Alien: Resurrection spoiler.
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 00:15:48 +0000
I saw Alien - Resurrection today. I'll comment on it, so consider
yourself warned about spoilers.

I liked the movie a lot. Okay, it was a touch too gooey, but it
touched on some very interesting details...

First of all, Call. A robot programmed to be human and hating it,
because she couldn't know if she felt compassion etc. because she was
programmed to or because she was a nice person. It touches a bit on
Kant's philosophy of intent, where if it's in your nature to do a
good thing, it's not 'good' to do so. Transplanted to shadowrun, it
can be an appropriate scenario both for 'allies', who can to some
extent be designed, and androids, which is somewhat possible. (Robot
anthropods).

Secondly, the Ripley/Alien genetic mesh.

First off, my hat off to Sigourney Weaver.Good job. :)

AFAICT they pulled a fast one. Ripley had
*other* genes - she was an engineered creature. Secondly, if she had
been cloned, she would be without the parasite. But neither did they
call it cloning.

The Aliens seemingly has some DNA able to interface with
other's DNA, or otherwise the genetic scientists did that, with Nr. 8
being the one appearing the most human. (Not necessarily *beeing*
most human. The only other one we saw alive was probably, or
possibly, more human 'inside'. (As an aside, from film 1 to 2 there
was 50 years, from 3 to 4 there was 200. Dunno how many from 2-3 but
it was probably a few. (Say 50). Interstellar travel & terraforming
is about 100-300 years away. (Assuming 100 (VERY optimistic) we're in
2400, or 350 years after SR. Genetic engineering *should* be able to
do things apparently magic by then.).
Anyway, they created 8 hybrids, each a two-part hybrid. Human with
some alien parts, and an alien embryo with some human parts on the
inside. I do not know why this was so but it was probably a reason
for it. (They apparently saw no 'use' for 'Ripley' other than as a
carrier, meaning she was necessary for the process, and the prcoess
only.).

So, what has this to do with SR? Can't leave it out, you know.

First off, Sigourney pulled off an interesting version of a predator
human. She went on instinct primarily, with a little memories and
remembered skills - much as would a shapeshifter. It made me a lot
more interested in seeing a shapeshifter portrayed. (Or do so myself,
considering I'm a player right now.).

Note that, if I remember correctly, a scientist commented that it was
the alien genes that enabled her to keep some memories, that they
stored knowledge. (Part of what makes even 'newborn' aliens deadly.).
(Also odd, considering Ripley wasn't a hybrid when she died in #3,
but ok.).

Secondly, what status would a genetically engineered human have?
Probably, considering SR, they would be patented property - items -
not people. Would give a bloody good reason to be a SIN-less runner,
wouldn't it?

A note on that.. Larry Niven's Sauron Supermen is an interesting
example of genetically improved soldiers. In a long, drawn out war on
one of the colonies, what happens?

The local women dutifully do their best to get laid by them and get
the same, genetically superior soldiers to fight back 20 years later.
Rather obvious, if you think about it.

Well, enough rambling. Got a pizza in the oven about ready to pop.




--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 2
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Cloning Revisited and Alien: Resurrection spoiler.
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 01:25:49 EST
In a message dated 98-02-07 20:51:17 EST, runefo@***.UIO.NO writes:

> I saw Alien - Resurrection today. I'll comment on it, so consider
> yourself warned about spoilers.

I'll be nice to others however in the rely...






















> I liked the movie a lot. Okay, it was a touch too gooey, but it
> touched on some very interesting details...

Very interesting ones.

> First of all, Call. A robot programmed to be human and hating it,
> because she couldn't know if she felt compassion etc. because she was
> programmed to or because she was a nice person. It touches a bit on
> Kant's philosophy of intent, where if it's in your nature to do a
> good thing, it's not 'good' to do so. Transplanted to shadowrun, it
> can be an appropriate scenario both for 'allies', who can to some
> extent be designed, and androids, which is somewhat possible. (Robot
> anthropods).

Very good idea, now, about the 'brains' however.

> Secondly, the Ripley/Alien genetic mesh.
>
> First off, my hat off to Sigourney Weaver.Good job. :)

I -personally- liked the character Ripley in #4 more than the others.

> AFAICT they pulled a fast one. Ripley had
> *other* genes - she was an engineered creature. Secondly, if she had
> been cloned, she would be without the parasite. But neither did they
> call it cloning.

Actually, at one point they did, however, the Genes were taken from Ripley in
between #1 and #2 believe it or not...

> The Aliens seemingly has some DNA able to interface with
> other's DNA, or otherwise the genetic scientists did that, with Nr. 8
> being the one appearing the most human. (Not necessarily *beeing*
> most human. The only other one we saw alive was probably, or
> possibly, more human 'inside'. (As an aside, from film 1 to 2 there
> was 50 years, from 3 to 4 there was 200. Dunno how many from 2-3 but
> it was probably a few. (Say 50). Interstellar travel & terraforming
> is about 100-300 years away. (Assuming 100 (VERY optimistic) we're in
> 2400, or 350 years after SR. Genetic engineering *should* be able to
> do things apparently magic by then.).
> Anyway, they created 8 hybrids, each a two-part hybrid. Human with
> some alien parts, and an alien embryo with some human parts on the
> inside. I do not know why this was so but it was probably a reason
> for it. (They apparently saw no 'use' for 'Ripley' other than as a
> carrier, meaning she was necessary for the process, and the prcoess
> only.).

More or less what you are saying is correct, except for the timeline, which is
a bit off....Remember, in #3, the "Android Bishop" tried to say he was the
"human" that the other Androids were shaped after. The protodesigner as it
were.

> So, what has this to do with SR? Can't leave it out, you know.
>
> First off, Sigourney pulled off an interesting version of a predator
> human. She went on instinct primarily, with a little memories and
> remembered skills - much as would a shapeshifter. It made me a lot
> more interested in seeing a shapeshifter portrayed. (Or do so myself,
> considering I'm a player right now.).

Yes, it did give a bit of insight into that possibility.

> Note that, if I remember correctly, a scientist commented that it was
> the alien genes that enabled her to keep some memories, that they
> stored knowledge. (Part of what makes even 'newborn' aliens deadly.).
> (Also odd, considering Ripley wasn't a hybrid when she died in #3,
> but ok.).

It's referred to as RNA Inheritence, IIRC. Many scientists believe today that
RNA and another substrain (???) carry instinctual information that is required
for fundamental survival. Extensions of what makes the body remember to
breath, how to pump blood where when and how.

And, as I said, Ripley's genetics came from the incident in between #1 and #2
to make #4, not from #3. If you have ever seen the "dream sequence" near the
beginning of #2, you get the idea of the truer side to things as they
happened....

> Secondly, what status would a genetically engineered human have?
> Probably, considering SR, they would be patented property - items -
> not people. Would give a bloody good reason to be a SIN-less runner,
> wouldn't it?

Skip science fiction storylines, move to "Space: Above and Beyond", and you
can get a really good idea of how things are. Actually, the
"Synthetics/Android" in Alien #4 give me similar ideas of citizenship.

> A note on that.. Larry Niven's Sauron Supermen is an interesting
> example of genetically improved soldiers. In a long, drawn out war on
> one of the colonies, what happens?
>
> The local women dutifully do their best to get laid by them and get
> the same, genetically superior soldiers to fight back 20 years later.
> Rather obvious, if you think about it.

Obvious in a devious format, yep, sounds completely female...

-K
Message no. 3
From: "Simon.M" <Simon.M@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Cloning Revisited and Alien: Resurrection spoiler.
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 13:28:40 -0000
AFAICT they pulled a fast one. Ripley had
*other* genes - she was an engineered creature. Secondly, if she had
been cloned, she would be without the parasite. But neither did they
call it cloning.


Sorry this is OT again, but the point was that in the blood sample they took
from Ripley on Furry the Alien's DNA was in there. They were still mixed
when the clone was made from that blood. The two different types of blood
were not seperated because the alien wouldn't have had a place to gestate.
And, because they were not seperated, the genes ended up a bit intermingled.


Ta da!
Message no. 4
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Cloning Revisited and Alien: Resurrection spoiler.
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 15:41:25 +0000
>> AFAICT they pulled a fast one. Ripley had
>> *other* genes - she was an engineered creature. Secondly, if she
>>had been cloned, she would be without the parasite. But neither did
>>they call it cloning.
>
> Sorry this is OT again,
Considering that cloning is an interesting possibility for SR, it can
also be considered on topic.

> but the point was that in the blood sample they took
> from Ripley on Furry the Alien's DNA was in there. They were still mixed
> when the clone was made from that blood. The two different types of blood
> were not seperated because the alien wouldn't have had a place to gestate.
> And, because they were not seperated, the genes ended up a bit intermingled.

Cloning, as is done today, is from a single cell. Taken from a
blood sample, that cell would either be a Ripleycell or Aliencell,
not a mix - unless they did something more, or, to be more exact,
something other than cloning as it is defined today. Now if the
definition change, then that's cool, but it'd be easier on us if they
used another word. (Resurrect?).

--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 5
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Cloning Revisited and Alien: Resurrection spoiler.
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 11:15:11 EST
In a message dated 98-02-08 09:42:43 EST, runefo@***.UIO.NO writes:

> > but the point was that in the blood sample they took
> > from Ripley on Furry the Alien's DNA was in there. They were still mixed
> > when the clone was made from that blood. The two different types of blood
> > were not seperated because the alien wouldn't have had a place to
gestate.
> > And, because they were not seperated, the genes ended up a bit
> intermingled.
>
> Cloning, as is done today, is from a single cell. Taken from a
> blood sample, that cell would either be a Ripleycell or Aliencell,
> not a mix - unless they did something more, or, to be more exact,
> something other than cloning as it is defined today. Now if the
> definition change, then that's cool, but it'd be easier on us if they
> used another word. (Resurrect?).
>
Yes, but the single cell holds all the replicant DNA to perform the ability to
"recreate" a given creature it is taken from, AS LONG AS, that cell is taken
from the proper area. A single blood cell isn't enough, nor is a single
spermocyte (though the latter is a bit better, IIRC).

And I believe they used the concept of cloning as we do now, they just added
something from a different angle Rune. They added the "alien DNA" and what it
does in conjunction with other lifeforms. It's parasitic in some/many
respects. Remember, it takes from the form it is invested in and goes from
there. Alien3 showed us that concept, with the "Dog Alien". I've had
nightmarish ideas of what it would do were Alien to be combined with others...

say Kazhin??? or How about Nordic Giant???

Ooooohhhh, OH OH OH, wait, I got it...
Elven Hermetic Mage...

-K (vile, beyond evil's reproach, grin)
Message no. 6
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Cloning Revisited and Alien: Resurrection spoiler.
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 01:11:31 +0000
> > > but the point was that in the blood sample they took
> > > from Ripley on Furry the Alien's DNA was in there. They were still mixed
> > > when the clone was made from that blood. The two different types of blood
> > > were not seperated because the alien wouldn't have had a place to
> gestate.
> > > And, because they were not seperated, the genes ended up a bit
> > intermingled.
> >
> > Cloning, as is done today, is from a single cell. Taken from a
> > blood sample, that cell would either be a Ripleycell or Aliencell,
> > not a mix - unless they did something more, or, to be more exact,
> > something other than cloning as it is defined today. Now if the
> > definition change, then that's cool, but it'd be easier on us if they
> > used another word. (Resurrect?).
> >
> Yes, but the single cell holds all the replicant DNA to perform the ability to
> "recreate" a given creature it is taken from, AS LONG AS, that cell is
taken
> from the proper area. A single blood cell isn't enough, nor is a single
> spermocyte (though the latter is a bit better, IIRC).
>
> And I believe they used the concept of cloning as we do now, they just added
> something from a different angle Rune.

My take exactly - I'm trying to say cloning wouldn't work like that
in SR *unless* you had the aliens too. (or else 300 more years of
genetic engineering tech.). In SR you don't have either.. or..
actually... *cough*

Of course, insect spirits is scarily similar to aliens in more than
one respect. Why not see them as a new kind of insect spirits, more
earthbound, and go from there? Hm.. what would be the changes to
'normal' spirits? (Not too unlikely with all the shit going down in
Bug City.). Or just toxic insect spirits... heh... *ponder*

>They added the "alien DNA" and what it
> does in conjunction with other lifeforms. It's parasitic in some/many
> respects. Remember, it takes from the form it is invested in and goes from
> there. Alien3 showed us that concept, with the "Dog Alien". I've had
> nightmarish ideas of what it would do were Alien to be combined with others.

I remember, no problem. What I do not do is understand, because it's
not entirely clear, is the following... THe dog alien in 3 is
allready part human, part alien, part dog, since it's from an alien
parasite from a human/alien hybrid.(The original queen was spawned
from a human host)..... hm.
I think I have the explanation on how it works. Or at least AN
explanation.

The parasites is the aliens... for lack of a better word..... um...
A chromosomes. The host provides the B chromosome, combining
into a new AB creature - part alien, part host. The eggs usually
consist of only the A chromosome, so the host does not drastically
affect the new alien, and does not accumulate the change unless in
odd cases. (Ripley/Alien cloning, for instance). This would also
explain that while the queen was .. two parts human, the eggs still
produced 'normal' alien/human aliens and not three part human,
one part aliens. Doesn't help much to explain why the queen stopped
producing eggs and started producing that ... new breed thingy.

(Keith, help me out here on the rest of this explanation.. or another
one.).



> Ooooohhhh, OH OH OH, wait, I got it...
> Elven Hermetic Mage...
Oh you bad GM you... :)

What about a TROLL hermetic mage? (Or orc, for those with
slightly higher mentals.). The alien doesn't need that extra
elven charisma all that much, IMO. Immortality might be nice, though,
of course.... but not required.).

Or.. troll physad. Imagine that. The speed, cunning and
bloodymindedness of an alien, the bad attitude, stamina and strength
of a troll and the insane proficiency at combat and stealth of a
physad. Bad, bad alien.

Anyone care to assign one stats?
I'd say something in the range of 12, 6, 18, -, 8, 5 for the basics.
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 7
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Cloning Revisited and Alien: Resurrection spoiler.
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 00:08:20 EST
In a message dated 98-02-08 19:13:55 EST, runefo@***.UIO.NO writes:

> >They added the "alien DNA" and what it
> > does in conjunction with other lifeforms. It's parasitic in some/many
> > respects. Remember, it takes from the form it is invested in and goes
> from
> > there. Alien3 showed us that concept, with the "Dog Alien". I've
had
> > nightmarish ideas of what it would do were Alien to be combined with
> others.
>
> I remember, no problem. What I do not do is understand, because it's
> not entirely clear, is the following... THe dog alien in 3 is
> allready part human, part alien, part dog, since it's from an alien
> parasite from a human/alien hybrid.(The original queen was spawned
> from a human host)..... hm.
> I think I have the explanation on how it works. Or at least AN
> explanation.

Okay, let's hear it... ;)

> The parasites is the aliens... for lack of a better word..... um...
> A chromosomes. The host provides the B chromosome, combining
> into a new AB creature - part alien, part host. The eggs usually
> consist of only the A chromosome, so the host does not drastically
> affect the new alien, and does not accumulate the change unless in
> odd cases. (Ripley/Alien cloning, for instance). This would also
> explain that while the queen was .. two parts human, the eggs still
> produced 'normal' alien/human aliens and not three part human,
> one part aliens. Doesn't help much to explain why the queen stopped
> producing eggs and started producing that ... new breed thingy.
>
> (Keith, help me out here on the rest of this explanation.. or another
> one.).

Oh yeah, get us all confused, -THEN- coming running for help...uh huh, I see
how you are now.... (evil smirk)...

Let's see, this is the hard stuff to remember now. Carrier "A" strand
contains the alien material. Carrier "B" strand is whatever is being linked
into it (varies according to situation). Once merged, Carrier "A" strand
becomes dominant, but translocates the desired (how it picks, I have -NO-
idea) and/or best qualities from "B" strand. New "A" strand emerges.

Enter "Strand A-Prime", something that has been played with for many tries now
(over 200 hundred years between stories IIRC, 3 and 4). Genetic studies
continue to try and get the "Carrier B" (being the human animal) to become
dominant and absorbiate the "Carrier A" strand. What is likely to happen is a
mutant, which is what happened when you think about it. The new "A-Prime"
strand (Ripley) became of dominant force with humanity in a state of control.
However, "Carrier A Strand" possessed recessive traits that were translocated
into the Queen's host form. Essentially, a "Q" strand with certain failsafes
(over simplification, but it works for the story-giggle).

The Queen is created from morphogenesis within Ripley's formulation because of
the Alien's connectivity to the neural fibril/columnar network (ever seen
Geiger's ideas where the Aliens actually "resided" within the body, those are
COOL). But, it carries the "Q Recessive" strand, and thus remains an
"Alien
within a Human".

However the "A-Prime" strand has been introduced and may have surged the
mutational genetics that were prevalent later. Please note, the Queen laid
out initial eggs (normal aliens) for quite a while, but something within her
wasn't fully developed "the womb". In this case, think of the Alien as having
to go through an additional "maturization" period, one where the
"womb" was
developed and therefore usable. Combine that with the Queen's desire to
reproduce, and the system goes into overdrive.

> > Ooooohhhh, OH OH OH, wait, I got it...
> > Elven Hermetic Mage...
> Oh you bad GM you... :)
>
> What about a TROLL hermetic mage? (Or orc, for those with
> slightly higher mentals.). The alien doesn't need that extra
> elven charisma all that much, IMO. Immortality might be nice, though,
> of course.... but not required.).

I like the immortality concept, but I've yet to see an Alien live that long in
any of the movies to care...(grin).

> Or.. troll physad. Imagine that. The speed, cunning and
> bloodymindedness of an alien, the bad attitude, stamina and strength
> of a troll and the insane proficiency at combat and stealth of a
> physad. Bad, bad alien.
>
> Anyone care to assign one stats?
> I'd say something in the range of 12, 6, 18, -, 8, 5 for the basics.
> --
> Fade

Those are funny as hell, actually, Mike and I have run "Space Games" and we
introduced the "Norka", which were essentially Aliens that were being used as
"Hunting Hounds" by another species (the Dorasti- think "Predator").
Yep, HAD
all sorts of fun with that one.

Norka (species type unknown)

B (6-10) Q (7-12) S (6-10) C (???) I (4/8) W (???) E (8- some may have been
dual natured, who knows...) M (Parabiological) R (9 **).

Known (those displayed) Powers

Acid Projection, Acid Secretions, Immunity to Pathogens & Poisons, Enhanced
Movement (in some, self only), Concealment (within domain; that is a "Lair
area"), Immunity to Fear, Enhanced Senses (Hearing (Wide Band), Smell,
Thermographic Vision).

There were a few that displayed regeneration (OH was that evil) and still
other's manifested Magic Resistance (grin).

Oh yeah, Damage was 9S (argued they were at least as damaging as a Barghest),
with "Warriors" having a +1 Reach.

That's the basics of what we had, I don't actually have the list...I know we
torqed the things around a few times just to keep everyone on their toes...

-K
Message no. 8
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Cloning Revisited and Alien: Resurrection spoiler.
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:50:08 +0000
And verily, did Fade hastily scribble thusly...

Spoiler space for Alien Ressurection...






















|
|I saw Alien - Resurrection today. I'll comment on it, so consider
|yourself warned about spoilers.

Saw that in December....
Not bad, but nowhere NEAR as good as Aliens.

|Anyway, they created 8 hybrids, each a two-part hybrid. Human with
|some alien parts, and an alien embryo with some human parts on the
|inside. I do not know why this was so but it was probably a reason
|for it. (They apparently saw no 'use' for 'Ripley' other than as a
|carrier, meaning she was necessary for the process, and the prcoess
|only.).

I think the idea behind the half human alien was to take humans out of the
loop, allowing the aliens to reproduce without the need for a host.

|Note that, if I remember correctly, a scientist commented that it was
|the alien genes that enabled her to keep some memories, that they
|stored knowledge. (Part of what makes even 'newborn' aliens deadly.).
|(Also odd, considering Ripley wasn't a hybrid when she died in #3,
|but ok.).

We don't entirely know exactly how the aliens DO reproduce.
I think they way they implied it was, that the face hugger doesn't actually
implant an egg. It implants some kind of retrovirus that merges the alien
DNA with that of the host in such a way that the host naturally grows a baby
alien in its stomach, like a cancer....

If this is the case, then cloning Ripley would cause the alien to grow
again. Etc...

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Cloning Revisited and Alien: Resurrection spoiler., you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!