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Message no. 1
From: Wiebke & Birger Timm <WiebkeT@********.DE>
Subject: coal, natural gas and mineral oil?
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:06:51 +0200
What about coal, natural gas and mineral oil ressources in 205x
in Shadowrun? AFAIK there is oil left for about 40 years ...Or
don't they need these ressources any more?
And how do they produce energie? Are there fusion reactors?


BlueDrake (thinking about changing to "Blix" because Nexx gave
that name to me...)
Message no. 2
From: Matt Penn <steelclaw@****.COM>
Subject: Re: coal, natural gas and mineral oil?
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 13:08:09 -0400
On Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:06:51 +0200 Wiebke & Birger Timm
<WiebkeT@********.DE> writes:
>What about coal, natural gas and mineral oil ressources in 205x
>in Shadowrun? AFAIK there is oil left for about 40 years ...Or
>don't they need these ressources any more?
>And how do they produce energie? Are there fusion reactors?

Well, in the CFS they've got cold fusion and hydroelectric power when
they're fortunate enough to live near water. I'd expect most things are
nuclear or perhaps solar-powered and hydro in the NAN. Whatever they can
find, basically.

-Matt, Ork at large
"Personally, I'd rig up 2,000 thousand hamsters and let the energy they
expend running on their wheels power everything, but..."

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Message no. 3
From: Geoff Morochnick <bodiam@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: coal, natural gas and mineral oil?
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 13:14:53 -0400
> What about coal, natural gas and mineral oil ressources in 205x
> in Shadowrun? AFAIK there is oil left for about 40 years ...Or
> don't they need these ressources any more?
> And how do they produce energie? Are there fusion reactors?

The BBB section on boat descriptions says that larger sea-faring vessels
have their own, portable fusion reactors.

> BlueDrake (thinking about changing to "Blix" because Nexx gave
> that name to me...)

--
Stonebow
"My true friends have always given me that supreme
proof of devotion, a spontaneous aversion for
the [one] I loved."
Sidonie Gabrielle Colette
bodiam@**********.com
http://www.geocities.com/area51/corridor/8427
Message no. 4
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: coal, natural gas and mineral oil?
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 11:51:12 -0600
Wiebke & Birger Timm wrote:
/
/ What about coal, natural gas and mineral oil ressources in 205x
/ in Shadowrun? AFAIK there is oil left for about 40 years ...Or
/ don't they need these ressources any more?
/ And how do they produce energie? Are there fusion reactors?

Cold Fusion technology exists in Shadowrun. However, cold fusion
reactors are *huge*.

Most vehicles run off of batteries and the power grids.

I'm not sure why the switch from gasoline to batteries. I suspect it's
due to shortage, and the environmental impact of mining/drilling.

-David
--
"If I told you, then I'd have to pull a Shadowrun against you. Sorry."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 5
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: coal, natural gas and mineral oil?
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 14:10:35 -0400
At 05:06 PM 7/7/98 +0200, you wrote:
>What about coal, natural gas and mineral oil ressources in 205x
>in Shadowrun? AFAIK there is oil left for about 40 years ...Or

Don't believe the hype. There's enough natural gas/petroleum to last far
more than 40 years. As it stands today, we can't actually drain an oil
pocket dry; we simply don't have the technology *today* to get at billions
of gallons of oil (we can't pump out something like 20% of the oil in known
fields, and can only pump out more than about 50% of the oil by using more
expensive steam techniques). There's also the factor that new oil
reserves/pockets are being found on a regular basis. AND the fact that we
have only recently begun any sort of serious deep sea oil drilling, with
much of that potential oil still undiscovered.

No, the truth of the matter is that at current usage rates, we have well
over 100 years of oil left. The 40 years assumes that NO NEW oil will be
found and that NO NEW drilling technologies will be invented. In that
case, it's right. But it's horribly wrong because new tech and new oil
fields are being invented/discovered on a regular basis.

>don't they need these ressources any more?

Absolutely, especially for plastics. But by 205X there are alternate power
sources that make the drain on oil resources for pure power less significant.

>And how do they produce energie? Are there fusion reactors?

According to the CalFree Sourcebook, yes, there are fusion reactors, and I
believe that comments Jon Stezto (I can never remember how to spell that
simple name right, sorry Jon) also indicate that fusion has become
prevalent enough to power very large vehicles, which would indicate it is
also used to power cities.

Even though 205X still has enough oil to power things that way, I would
guess that most, in not nearly all, power plants/generators are based on
fusion, old-fashioned current nuclear tech, or alternate means such as
wind, waves and sun.

Erik J.

URL to go here eventually...
Message no. 6
From: Smilin' Ted <Tuvyah@***.COM>
Subject: Re: coal, natural gas and mineral oil?
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 14:30:33 EDT
In a message dated 7/7/98 10:16:37 AM, ErikJ wrote:

>Don't believe the hype. There's enough natural gas/petroleum to last far
>more than 40 years. As it stands today, we can't actually drain an oil
>pocket dry; we simply don't have the technology *today* to get at billions
>of gallons of oil (we can't pump out something like 20% of the oil in known
>fields, and can only pump out more than about 50% of the oil by using more
>expensive steam techniques). There's also the factor that new oil
>reserves/pockets are being found on a regular basis. AND the fact that we
>have only recently begun any sort of serious deep sea oil drilling, with
>much of that potential oil still undiscovered.

But all of our estimates for oil reserves are based on inflated figures. Many
countries where oil reserves are a major, or the only main asset (for
instance, the Gulf States, Russia, and China) use their oil reserves to
collateralize loans, and also figure them into their federal book-keeping as
assets to offset deficits. So there is enormous incentive to overvalue those
reserves, and the folks who make the world estimates take each country at
their word.

And, of course, just because we're discovering new oil fields now doesn't mean
we'll continue to do so.

Smilin' Ted
Message no. 7
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: coal, natural gas and mineral oil?
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 15:47:56 -0400
At 02:30 PM 7/7/98 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 7/7/98 10:16:37 AM, ErikJ wrote:
>
>>Don't believe the hype. There's enough natural gas/petroleum to last far
>>more than 40 years. As it stands today, we can't actually drain an oil
>>pocket dry; we simply don't have the technology *today* to get at billions
>>of gallons of oil (we can't pump out something like 20% of the oil in known
>>fields, and can only pump out more than about 50% of the oil by using more
>>expensive steam techniques). There's also the factor that new oil
>>reserves/pockets are being found on a regular basis. AND the fact that we
>>have only recently begun any sort of serious deep sea oil drilling, with
>>much of that potential oil still undiscovered.
>
>But all of our estimates for oil reserves are based on inflated figures.

Not true. Conservative estimates from the oil companies themselves (who go
out of business with no oil left) give over a hundred years at present
consumption. Not saying I trust the oil companies, but this 40 yr party
line spouted by all and sundry doesn't jibe with the facts.

Many
>countries where oil reserves are a major, or the only main asset (for
>instance, the Gulf States, Russia, and China) use their oil reserves to
>collateralize loans, and also figure them into their federal book-keeping as
>assets to offset deficits. So there is enormous incentive to overvalue those
>reserves, and the folks who make the world estimates take each country at
>their word.

I'll willingly give you that.

>And, of course, just because we're discovering new oil fields now doesn't
mean
>we'll continue to do so.

Even if we never discovered another oil field, there would still be more
than 40 years of oil, as long as the technology advances to where 99-100%
of an oil pocket can be pumped out.

See, using basic techniques, you can get about 50% or so of the oil pocket.
By pumping *in* steam, you get increase your total to about 70 to 80% of
the total pocket. That leaves about 20% of the oil pocket untouched,
because it's simply too hard and too expensive to get at.

Simply by being able to get at that last 20% cheaply and easily, you get
massive amounts of oils, easily billions if not trillions or more barrels.
Which easily buys more time for pure fossil fuel usage.

The whole 40 yr line has been spouted for several decades now. It wasn't
true 20 years ago, it's not true now.

Erik J.

URL to go here eventually...
Message no. 8
From: Wiebke & Birger Timm <WiebkeT@********.DE>
Subject: Re: coal, natural gas and mineral oil?
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:37:57 +0200
Matt Penn wrote:

> Well, in the CFS they've got cold fusion and hydroelectric power when
> they're fortunate enough to live near water. I'd expect most things are
> nuclear or perhaps solar-powered and hydro in the NAN. Whatever they can
> find, basically.

But how should cold fusion work. I thought fusion is caused by heat?

Blix (ok, Nexx has won ;-) )
Message no. 9
From: Wiebke & Birger Timm <WiebkeT@********.DE>
Subject: Re: coal, natural gas and mineral oil?
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 22:00:59 +0200
Erik Jameson wrote:

> No, the truth of the matter is that at current usage rates, we have well
> over 100 years of oil left. The 40 years assumes that NO NEW oil will be
> found and that NO NEW drilling technologies will be invented. In that
> case, it's right. But it's horribly wrong because new tech and new oil
> fields are being invented/discovered on a regular basis.

I didn't think of that. But I think it's true. Sometimes I even believe to see
first signs of fine technology in science magazines.There is for example a chip
for blind people that could make them see again - works just fine on rats by
now.
Or a blood preasure measurement system that works by implanting a mini device
inside the blood circle which sends signals to a device outside the body where
you can read the preasure. (They plan to test it on people don't know when...)
The bodyware in Shadowrun seems to me quite realistic (not all of it though).
Don't you think so?

> According to the CalFree Sourcebook, yes, there are fusion reactors, and I
> believe that comments Jon Stezto (I can never remember how to spell that
> simple name right, sorry Jon) also indicate that fusion has become
> prevalent enough to power very large vehicles, which would indicate it is
> also used to power cities.

What kind of Sourcebook is it? I mean, what's in it? (Many sourcebooks haven't
been published in Germany (yet?).)BTW, my brother wants to know (don't know why)
if they published a sourcebook on Germany in 2054 (because it's a German edition
by FASA).
It's really funny...anarchism in Berlin, Flood in Hamburg (many underwater
ruins), etc. ;-)

Blix
Message no. 10
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: coal, natural gas and mineral oil?
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:03:56 EDT
In a message dated 7/7/98 1:31:39 PM US Eastern Standard Time, Tuvyah@***.COM
writes:

> In a message dated 7/7/98 10:16:37 AM, ErikJ wrote:
> >Don't believe the hype. There's enough natural gas/petroleum to last far
> >more than 40 years. As it stands today, we can't actually drain an oil
> >pocket dry; we simply don't have the technology *today* to get at billions
> >of gallons of oil (we can't pump out something like 20% of the oil in
known
> >fields, and can only pump out more than about 50% of the oil by using more
> >expensive steam techniques). There's also the factor that new oil
> >reserves/pockets are being found on a regular basis. AND the fact that we
> >have only recently begun any sort of serious deep sea oil drilling, with
> >much of that potential oil still undiscovered.
>
> But all of our estimates for oil reserves are based on inflated figures.
> Many
> countries where oil reserves are a major, or the only main asset (for
> instance, the Gulf States, Russia, and China) use their oil reserves to
> collateralize loans, and also figure them into their federal book-keeping
as
> assets to offset deficits. So there is enormous incentive to overvalue
those
> reserves, and the folks who make the world estimates take each country at
> their word.
>
> And, of course, just because we're discovering new oil fields now doesn't
> mean
> we'll continue to do so.

This topic concerns one of the great toss-up fields of interest to world
economics. I will graciously grant that Erik knows a great deal in that area.
However, the concept of Fuel Reserves and Alternate Power sources ... well, I
don't know.

I am aware that all current estimates already take for granted certain degrees
of inflationary usage as well as the "At the Moment" state of oil development
and discovery.

I am also aware that the an interesting state of things concerning
oil/petroleum products is that "Plastic Recycling" is gaining some more
ground, even to the point of re-extracting usable oil from plastic.

As to what else I know, hard to say ATM myself ;)

-K
Message no. 11
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: coal, natural gas and mineral oil?
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:11:36 EDT
In a message dated 7/7/98 3:31:00 PM US Eastern Standard Time, WiebkeT@**
ONLINE.DE writes:

> > Well, in the CFS they've got cold fusion and hydroelectric power when
> > they're fortunate enough to live near water. I'd expect most things are
> > nuclear or perhaps solar-powered and hydro in the NAN. Whatever they can
> > find, basically.
>
> But how should cold fusion work. I thought fusion is caused by heat?
>
Just a quick note, "Fusion" within the Naval Forces is actually "Bubble
Fusion" (using sonics to incur critical mass).

-K
Message no. 12
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: coal, natural gas and mineral oil?
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:38:55 -0400
At 10:00 PM 7/7/98 +0200, you wrote:

>> According to the CalFree Sourcebook, yes, there are fusion reactors, and I
>> believe that comments Jon Stezto (I can never remember how to spell that
>> simple name right, sorry Jon) also indicate that fusion has become
>> prevalent enough to power very large vehicles, which would indicate it is
>> also used to power cities.
>
>What kind of Sourcebook is it? I mean, what's in it? (Many sourcebooks
haven't
>been published in Germany (yet?).)BTW, my brother wants to know (don't
know why)
>if they published a sourcebook on Germany in 2054 (because it's a German
edition
>by FASA).
>It's really funny...anarchism in Berlin, Flood in Hamburg (many underwater
>ruins), etc. ;-)

First, yes, much of what was Deutschland in den Schatten became the Germany
Sourcebook published in the US, which did include neo-anarchism in Berlin
and Hamburg flooding.

Second, I assume you are asking for info regarding the California Free
State Sourcebook?

Well, first of all, as a Californian, I can't agree with much of what they
did to the state. And I really can't believe the things they totally
missed out on.

But anyway...San Francisco is pretty much a colony/territory of Imperial
Japan. The Berkeley area (across the Bay) is mostly a metahuman ghetto,
and these two halves of the Bay really don't like each other.

Los Angeles...where Beverly Hills, UCLA and surrounding areas are now is
walled off and is a super-exclusive Hollywood movie town. There's another
walled off area in the middle of LA called "El Infierno" that is a really
really bad ghetto. And Disneyland has incorporated significant portions of
the surrounding area and has walled itself off in to "Fun City" which is
one giant amusement park with (I think) extraterriroriality. I seem to
recall that even Palm Springs was a walled/domed? city.

Much of what is inbetween has reverted to sort of a sort of 205X version of
the Wild West, with each town doing what they like, gangs of outlaws and
vigilantes, that sort of thing. Take nearly any Wild West movie and give
them 205X gear and you've got it.

Personally, I really hated the book and the artworkd sucked pretty bad too.
But if you can find it cheap, go for it. If it's too expensive or too
hard to find, forget it.

Erik J.

URL to go here eventually...
Message no. 13
From: Greg Symons <gsymons@******.TEMPLE.EDU>
Subject: Re: coal, natural gas and mineral oil?
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:56:32 -0400
>Matt Penn wrote:
>
>> Well, in the CFS they've got cold fusion and hydroelectric power
when
>> they're fortunate enough to live near water. I'd expect most
things are
>> nuclear or perhaps solar-powered and hydro in the NAN. Whatever
they can
>> find, basically.
>
>But how should cold fusion work. I thought fusion is caused by heat?
>

Heat's a by-product of fusion, not it's source. Fusion occurs when two
(or more) atoms (usually of hydrogen, though in stars even heavier
elements can be fused) are compressed so tightly that they actually
combine and become an atom of a heavier element (in the case of
hydrogen, helium, but like I said stars can fuse heavier materials..
which is where all the elements came from in the first place:). When
this occurs, an _incredible_ amount of energy is released, resulting
in a flood of light, heat, and neutrons (which is what discredited
those two researchers who claimed to have perfected cold fusion... the
neutrons released would've killed them _very_ quickly)

Right now, there are only a couple of reliable methods for causing
hydrogen (actually what's used is deuterium or tritium... a hydrogen
atom with one or two neutrons) to fuse into helium. However, none of
these are practical for generating electricity, because either a)
they're uncontrolled (i.e. thermonuclear weapons) or b) they don't
reach even the engineering break-even point, the point at which the
energy expended is equal to or less than that which is recovered (i.e.
tokomaks) or c) they can't be sustained (i.e. laser-fusion devices).
Until a method exists in which a fusion reaction can be sustained, and
a significant amount of the energy released can be recovered, we won't
see fusion devices. And table-top fusion? Forget it.

Greg

*********************************************************************
* *
* \ (__) Greg Symons <gsymons@******.temple.edu> *
* \\(oo) Seanchai/ and Follower of Bri\de *
* /-----\\\/ *
* / | (##) "Hearken closely and you shall hear the *
* * ||----||" sound of cows and bagpipes upon the heath" *
* ^^ ^^ *
*********************************************************************
Message no. 14
From: Smilin' Ted <Tuvyah@***.COM>
Subject: Re: coal, natural gas and mineral oil?
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 18:05:47 EDT
In a message dated 7/7/98 11:54:24 AM, ErikJ wrote:

>
>>But all of our estimates for oil reserves are based on inflated figures.
>
>Not true. Conservative estimates from the oil companies themselves (who go
>out of business with no oil left) give over a hundred years at present
>consumption. Not saying I trust the oil companies, but this 40 yr party
>line spouted by all and sundry doesn't jibe with the facts.

But the oil companies include in their estimates figures given to them by
producer countries like Russia, Mexico, etc. They haven't done world-wide
surveys entirely with their own engineers and equipment.


>
>>And, of course, just because we're discovering new oil fields now doesn't
>mean
>>we'll continue to do so.
>




>>Even if we never discovered another oil field, there would still be more
>than 40 years of oil, as long as the technology advances to where 99-100%
>of an oil pocket can be pumped out.

>See, using basic techniques, you can get about 50% or so of the oil pocket.
> By pumping *in* steam, you get increase your total to about 70 to 80% of
>the total pocket. That leaves about 20% of the oil pocket untouched,
>because it's simply too hard and too expensive to get at.
>
>Simply by being able to get at that last 20% cheaply and easily, you get
>massive amounts of oils, easily billions if not trillions or more barrels.
>Which easily buys more time for pure fossil fuel usage.

That's the killer assumption. Right now, we're not talking 40 years till
there's not a drop of petroleum on the planet. We're talking 40 years until we
pass the point where we spending more energy (expressed in dollars, IIRC) to
get the stuff out of the ground than we would from burning it in the first
place.

The current estimates also include a huge amount of oil trapped in shale
fields, and so far no one has figured out a way to get it out economically. If
you're interested, Scientific American actually ran a moderately scary article
on the subject, written by two petroleum engineers. It was in January or
February, IIRC.

Smilin' Ted
Message no. 15
From: Matt Penn <steelclaw@****.COM>
Subject: Re: coal, natural gas and mineral oil?
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 19:37:44 -0400
On Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:38:55 -0400 Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM> writes:

<snip>
>Personally, I really hated the book and the artworkd sucked pretty bad
too.
> But if you can find it cheap, go for it. If it's too expensive or too
>hard to find, forget it.

Really? I got it just Saturday as a birthday present and I quite liked
it. Of course, I've never been farther west that Louisiana, so I'm
probably not the best one to judge. For my purposes of starting up a
campaign, it's working out fine.

Don't feel too bad, though. If they ever do a Target: CAS book I'll
probably hate it. God save me from "The South Shall Rise Yet Again."

-Matt, Southern Ork
"I wrote a southern netbook for one RPG, maybe I'll do it again!"

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Message no. 16
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: coal, natural gas and mineral oil?
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:05:49 +0100
Erik Jameson said on 17:38/7 Jul 98,...

> First, yes, much of what was Deutschland in den Schatten became the Germany
> Sourcebook published in the US, which did include neo-anarchism in Berlin
> and Hamburg flooding.

That's in the original German book, yes. What FASA did, though,
was leave out the extra equipment that's in the back of DidS. If
you speak German, I suggest you buy the German version -- the
info in both books is largely the same, but you get more stuff to
play with :)

(Although it has to be said a lot of the items suffer from the "We
can do it better" syndrome.)

> Well, first of all, as a Californian, I can't agree with much of what they
> did to the state. And I really can't believe the things they totally
> missed out on.

...which is the opinion of _everyone_ living in an area described
in a FASA sourcebook, BTW. Erik complains about California, I
don't like what they did to the Netherlands, Avenger says the
London Sourcebook is unrealistic, and so on.

> But anyway...San Francisco is pretty much a colony/territory of Imperial
> Japan. The Berkeley area (across the Bay) is mostly a metahuman ghetto,
> and these two halves of the Bay really don't like each other.

Mainly because the Japanese don't like metahumans, and ship
them off to places where the humans don't have to live with them.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I wish I was a neutron bomb, for once I could go off.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 17
From: Wiebke & Birger Timm <WiebkeT@********.DE>
Subject: Re: coal, natural gas and mineral oil?
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 16:13:48 +0200
Greg Symons wrote:

> Heat's a by-product of fusion, not it's source. Fusion occurs when two
> (or more) atoms (usually of hydrogen, though in stars even heavier
> elements can be fused) are compressed so tightly that they actually
> combine and become an atom of a heavier element (in the case of
> hydrogen, helium, but like I said stars can fuse heavier materials..
> which is where all the elements came from in the first place:). When
> this occurs, an _incredible_ amount of energy is released, resulting
> in a flood of light, heat, and neutrons (which is what discredited
> those two researchers who claimed to have perfected cold fusion... the
> neutrons released would've killed them _very_ quickly)

Hm...I always thought fusion would be achieved by heating it to enormous
temperature so the atoms can join, which releases the incredible amount
of energy which causes fusion again and so on...a chain reaction, that
only has to be controlled... Is that wrong?

BlixDrake
Message no. 18
From: Wiebke & Birger Timm <WiebkeT@********.DE>
Subject: Re: coal, natural gas and mineral oil?
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 17:41:55 +0200
Gurth wrote:

> (Although it has to be said a lot of the items suffer from the "We
> can do it better" syndrome.)

You mean cool stuff beeing recalled or canceled?

> ...which is the opinion of _everyone_ living in an area described
> in a FASA sourcebook, BTW. Erik complains about California, I
> don't like what they did to the Netherlands, Avenger says the
> London Sourcebook is unrealistic, and so on.

Oh, for me it's not true! I live in Germany and I think the DidS is quite cool!
Although it of course makes a difference if a whole country or only a city is
described. So for example I have no idea about how realistically bavaria is
described because I live in the north of Germany and that's as important a
difference as between catholics and protestants I think (ok, exaggerating a
little ;) )...(BTW I live in the region which in 205x is a nuclear contaminated
area - now that's quite realistic because of the final dispose of nuclear waste
they are doing here and all those transports across the villages into the final
deposit.)

> Mainly because the Japanese don't like metahumans, and ship
> them off to places where the humans don't have to live with them.

One of my players asked if I think it's realistic that there isn't much rassism
except for the one against metahumans left as described in SR2 (think of the
NAN, for example)... ...What do you think?

Blix
Message no. 19
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: coal, natural gas and mineral oil?
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 13:30:32 -0400
At 07:37 PM 7/7/98 -0400, you wrote:
>On Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:38:55 -0400 Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM> writes:
>
><snip>
>>Personally, I really hated the book and the artworkd sucked pretty bad
>too.
>> But if you can find it cheap, go for it. If it's too expensive or too
>>hard to find, forget it.
>
>Really? I got it just Saturday as a birthday present and I quite liked
>it. Of course, I've never been farther west that Louisiana, so I'm
>probably not the best one to judge. For my purposes of starting up a
>campaign, it's working out fine.

Well, first of all, happy birthday. And since you didn't pay a dime for it
yourself, cool.

Most importantly, if you want to know what a real Californian thinks
CalFree will be like in 205X, drop me a line at my AOL address,
Wildsmashr@***.com, or check out my web page (once it's up and running) for
a bit of a preview of the New CalFree Sourcebook that'll slowly but surely
be coalescing there.

Eventually, it'll be an alternative, much like the UK Guide that Avenger
has written.

Now if Gurth would just write *his* sourcebook...

Erik J.

URL to go here eventually...
Message no. 20
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: coal, natural gas and mineral oil?
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:18:18 EDT
In a message dated 98-07-08 13:36:30 EDT, you write:

> Eventually, it'll be an alternative, much like the UK Guide that Avenger
> has written.
>
> Now if Gurth would just write *his* sourcebook...

What? Target: Holland?

Nexx, running away into the night
Message no. 21
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: coal, natural gas and mineral oil?
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 20:23:10 +0100
Wiebke & Birger Timm said on 17:41/8 Jul 98,...

> > (Although it has to be said a lot of the items suffer from the "We
> > can do it better" syndrome.)
>
> You mean cool stuff beeing recalled or canceled?

I mean that the gear that's in DidS is not in the Germany
Sourcebook at all. The DidS gear is okay, on average, but the
syndrome I referred to consists of things like giving guns larger
clip sizes and lower weights than the ones in FASA books. Take
the H&K Urban Combat as an example: it's a submachinegun, but
has more rounds in the clip than most FASA-published SMGs, and
weighs only half what most of FASA's SMGs weigh. Plus it has the
rather munchkinous Concealability of 18 against metal
detectors...!

> > ...which is the opinion of _everyone_ living in an area described
> > in a FASA sourcebook, BTW. Erik complains about California, I
> > don't like what they did to the Netherlands, Avenger says the
> > London Sourcebook is unrealistic, and so on.
>
> Oh, for me it's not true! I live in Germany and I think the DidS is quite cool!

Then you're the first person I know of who thinks a sourcebook
about their area is a good one :) Most other Germans I've talked
to about DidS don't like it, to varying degrees...

> One of my players asked if I think it's realistic that there isn't much rassism
> except for the one against metahumans left as described in SR2 (think of the
> NAN, for example)... ...What do you think?

In recent books, racism and related -isms are much more
common than they were in earlier books. The California Free State
sourcebook is a good example of this change in attitude at FASA
(probably, it's yet another result of Mike Mulvihill being line
developer).

Let's round this off with a quote: "A person shouldn't believe in
an ism. They should believe in themselves." :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I wish I was a neutron bomb, for once I could go off.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 22
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: coal, natural gas and mineral oil?
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 20:06:06 +0100
And verily, did Nexx Many-Scars hastily scribble thusly...
|
|In a message dated 98-07-08 13:36:30 EDT, you write:
|
|> Eventually, it'll be an alternative, much like the UK Guide that Avenger
|> has written.
|>
|> Now if Gurth would just write *his* sourcebook...
|
|What? Target: Holland?
|
|Nexx, running away into the night
|

It's no use Nexx. You've done it now....
It's only a matter of time before he tracks you down and gives you the
THWAPPING of your life....
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 23
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: coal, natural gas and mineral oil?
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:51:46 -0400
At 05:41 PM 7/8/98 +0200, you wrote:

>One of my players asked if I think it's realistic that there isn't much
rassism
>except for the one against metahumans left as described in SR2 (think of the
>NAN, for example)... ...What do you think?

In a word, yes. A nine-foot troll with horns is far more frightening than
a black man.

Once my web site is up and running for the public (I'm hoping next week)
you can take a look at a essay I wrote about racism in SR.

Erik J.

URL to go here soon...
Message no. 24
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: coal, natural gas and mineral oil?
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 16:28:37 EDT
In a message dated 98-07-08 15:06:35 EDT, you write:

> |> Now if Gurth would just write *his* sourcebook...
> |
> |What? Target: Holland?
> |
> |Nexx, running away into the night
> |
>
> It's no use Nexx. You've done it now....
> It's only a matter of time before he tracks you down and gives you the
> THWAPPING of your life....


I'll just pick his pocket and find out his real name, then....

Nexx, Grandson of Coyote
Message no. 25
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: coal, natural gas and mineral oil?
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:39:06 -0600
Spike wrote:
/
/ And verily, did Nexx Many-Scars hastily scribble thusly...
/ |
/ |In a message dated 98-07-08 13:36:30 EDT, you write:
/ |
/ |> Eventually, it'll be an alternative, much like the UK Guide that Avenger
/ |> has written.
/ |>
/ |> Now if Gurth would just write *his* sourcebook...
/ |
/ |What? Target: Holland?
/ |
/ |Nexx, running away into the night
/
/ It's no use Nexx. You've done it now....
/ It's only a matter of time before he tracks you down and gives you the
/ THWAPPING of your life....

...because Gurth is a Master Carpenter. :)

-David
--
"If I told you, then I'd have to pull a Shadowrun against you. Sorry."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 26
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: coal, natural gas and mineral oil?
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 16:40:02 EDT
In a message dated 98-07-08 16:38:39 EDT, you write:

> / It's no use Nexx. You've done it now....
> / It's only a matter of time before he tracks you down and gives you the
> / THWAPPING of your life....
>
> ...because Gurth is a Master Carpenter. :)

Yes, but even a journeyman can show up the master every once in a while...

Nexx, Journeyman
Message no. 27
From: Wiebke & Birger Timm <WiebkeT@********.DE>
Subject: Re: coal, natural gas and mineral oil?
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 19:43:27 +0200
Gurth wrote:

> Take
> the H&K Urban Combat as an example: it's a submachinegun, but
> has more rounds in the clip than most FASA-published SMGs, and
> weighs only half what most of FASA's SMGs weigh. Plus it has the
> rather munchkinous Concealability of 18 against metal
> detectors...!

As a gm I would devide it by two if I had a munchky in my group...;-)

Blix
Message no. 28
From: Wiebke & Birger Timm <WiebkeT@********.DE>
Subject: Re: coal, natural gas and mineral oil?
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 19:58:30 +0200
Erik Jameson wrote:

> In a word, yes. A nine-foot troll with horns is far more frightening than
> a black man.

Frightening, yes. But there has been and is even today rassism between people
who don't look different from another at all (for example catholics/protestants)
Why aren't there any in Shadowrun (in 205x)?

> Once my web site is up and running for the public (I'm hoping next week)
> you can take a look at a essay I wrote about racism in SR.

Then what URL does your site have?

Blix
Message no. 29
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: coal, natural gas and mineral oil?
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 23:20:29 EDT
In a message dated 09/07/98 16:20:42 Central Daylight Time, WiebkeT@**
ONLINE.DE writes:

> Frightening, yes. But there has been and is even today rassism between
people
> who don't look different from another at all (for example catholics/
> protestants)
> Why aren't there any in Shadowrun (in 205x)?

Well, technically, Blix, its not racism between two people of different
beliefs... sectarianism, maybe, would be a good word...

Nexx
Message no. 30
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: coal, natural gas and mineral oil?
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 18:26:39 -0300
At 16:13 08/07/98 +0200, you wrote:
>Greg Symons wrote:
>
>> Heat's a by-product of fusion, not it's source. Fusion occurs when two
>> (or more) atoms (usually of hydrogen, though in stars even heavier
>> elements can be fused) are compressed so tightly that they actually
>> combine and become an atom of a heavier element (in the case of
>> hydrogen, helium, but like I said stars can fuse heavier materials..
>> which is where all the elements came from in the first place:). When
>> this occurs, an _incredible_ amount of energy is released, resulting
>> in a flood of light, heat, and neutrons (which is what discredited
>> those two researchers who claimed to have perfected cold fusion... the
>> neutrons released would've killed them _very_ quickly)
>
>Hm...I always thought fusion would be achieved by heating it to enormous
>temperature so the atoms can join, which releases the incredible amount
>of energy which causes fusion again and so on...a chain reaction, that
>only has to be controlled... Is that wrong?
>
>BlixDrake
>
>

Yes it is... To make fusion you don't need heat, it's not a chain reaction.
Fusion produces heat. I believe thare are some experimental fusion plants in
England, some huge metal cylinders that use a magnectic field to cram hydrogen
atoms togheter. I believe they once got 80MW out of it... (in a 2-second test,
but it's still impressive.).

Bira
Message no. 31
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: coal, natural gas and mineral oil?
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:59:17 -0400
At 07:58 PM 7/9/98 +0200, you wrote:
>Erik Jameson wrote:
>
>> In a word, yes. A nine-foot troll with horns is far more frightening than
>> a black man.
>
>Frightening, yes. But there has been and is even today rassism between people
>who don't look different from another at all (for example
catholics/protestants)
>Why aren't there any in Shadowrun (in 205x)?

Agreed. But the difference between those groups is trivial when compared
to the differences between a troll and a human. It's hard to point at a
Catholic and say "Look at him! Can't you tell he's the devil's spawn!" but
it's real easy to do that to an elf or ork.

I'm sure racism and prejudice based upon skin color/culture/religion
haven't been eliminated totally. But of far, far larger concern is the
racism and prejudice around (meta)humans.

>> Once my web site is up and running for the public (I'm hoping next week)
>> you can take a look at a essay I wrote about racism in SR.
>
>Then what URL does your site have?

I could tell you, but then I'm afraid I'd have to hire some Shadowrunners
to kick your German ass. Seriously, I'm still working on the site and I'm
hoping to go "live" with it next week. But there will be a clearly marked
section that has my opinions on realistic racism in SR.

Erik J.

URL to go here soon...
Message no. 32
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: coal, natural gas and mineral oil?
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:27:49 +0100
Wiebke & Birger Timm said on 19:43/9 Jul 98,...

> > Take
> > the H&K Urban Combat as an example: it's a submachinegun, but
> > has more rounds in the clip than most FASA-published SMGs, and
> > weighs only half what most of FASA's SMGs weigh. Plus it has the
> > rather munchkinous Concealability of 18 against metal
> > detectors...!
>
> As a gm I would devide it by two if I had a munchky in my group...;-)

I'd say it needs its weight doubled (to 3.5 kg, and 4 kg for the
smart model), and at _least_ halving the Concealability. In the
Neo-A Guide to Real Life, there are guidelines for "plastic"
weapons like this one: +1 or +2 to Concealability at most,
against metal detectors. The Urban Combat gives a +13...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"That's IT, lunchbox!!! We'll go to Shermer, Illinois!"
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 33
From: Wiebke & Birger Timm <WiebkeT@********.DE>
Subject: Re: coal, natural gas and mineral oil?
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 19:33:33 +0200
Nexx Many-Scars wrote:

> Well, technically, Blix, its not racism between two people of different
> beliefs... sectarianism, maybe, would be a good word...

You're right. Does that still exist in shadowrun? Yeah, what about
catholics and protestants in shadowrun? And anyway, what sects are there in
205x?

Blix
Message no. 34
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: coal, natural gas and mineral oil?
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:35:33 EDT
In a message dated 98-07-10 16:14:04 EDT, you write:

> > Well, technically, Blix, its not racism between two people of different
> > beliefs... sectarianism, maybe, would be a good word...
>
> You're right. Does that still exist in shadowrun? Yeah, what about
> catholics and protestants in shadowrun? And anyway, what sects are there in
> 205x?

Most definitely. Since most of the problems you hear about nowadays are in
Northern Ireland (which no longer really exists), I doubt the world at large
is as aware of the problem as they are today (I have a feeling that Tir na Og
keeps a tight lid on their problems in Ulster), but sectarianism definitely
exists.

As for what specific sects there are... well, the number must be huge... In
addition to the schisms within Christianity (Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and the
innummerable Protestant sects), there are groups within Judaism, Islam... not
to mention the wide variety of pagan and Eastern religions... I doubt the
conservative Protestants have gotten any more tolerant over the years...

Nexx
Message no. 35
From: Wiebke & Birger Timm <WiebkeT@********.DE>
Subject: Re: coal, natural gas and mineral oil?
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 23:21:35 +0200
Erik Jameson wrote:

> Agreed. But the difference between those groups is trivial when compared
> to the differences between a troll and a human. It's hard to point at a
> Catholic and say "Look at him! Can't you tell he's the devil's spawn!" but
> it's real easy to do that to an elf or ork.
>
> I'm sure racism and prejudice based upon skin color/culture/religion
> haven't been eliminated totally. But of far, far larger concern is the
> racism and prejudice around (meta)humans.

Ok, I agree on that.

> I could tell you, but then I'm afraid I'd have to hire some Shadowrunners
> to kick your German ass.

My bodyguards would make mash out of them before they could even get near me!
;-)

Blix
Message no. 36
From: Wiebke & Birger Timm <WiebkeT@********.DE>
Subject: Re: coal, natural gas and mineral oil?
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 22:46:14 +0200
Ubiratan P. Alberton wrote:

> Yes it is... To make fusion you don't need heat, it's not a chain reaction.
> Fusion produces heat. I believe thare are some experimental fusion plants in
> England, some huge metal cylinders that use a magnectic field to cram hydrogen
> atoms togheter. I believe they once got 80MW out of it... (in a 2-second test,
> but it's still impressive.).
>
> Bira

Now where's the problem getting energy from fusion when they
a)know to make the magnetic field
b) know how to controll the reaction ?

Greg said the problem is to get the energy into electricity (IIRC), but it
shouldn't be too difficult to use water and turbines that are driven by steam of
the heated water (as is with fission), wouldn't it?

Blix
Message no. 37
From: Wiebke & Birger Timm <WiebkeT@********.DE>
Subject: Re: coal, natural gas and mineral oil?
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 22:37:59 +0200
Gurth wrote:

> I'd say it needs its weight doubled (to 3.5 kg, and 4 kg for the
> smart model), and at _least_ halving the Concealability. In the
> Neo-A Guide to Real Life, there are guidelines for "plastic"
> weapons like this one: +1 or +2 to Concealability at most,
> against metal detectors. The Urban Combat gives a +13...

Maybe if there isn't any metal in it AT ALL (plastic bullets???), so it
can't be detected by a metal detector... But then you couldn't put normal
ammo in it or the concealybility would go down to "normal". How about that?
It would also explain the weight... (I could be completely wrong...don't
know much about weapon mechanics...)

Blix
Message no. 38
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: coal, natural gas and mineral oil?
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 18:43:34 -0300
At 19:58 09/07/98 +0200, you wrote:
>Erik Jameson wrote:
>
>> In a word, yes. A nine-foot troll with horns is far more frightening than
>> a black man.
>
>Frightening, yes. But there has been and is even today rassism between people
>who don't look different from another at all (for example
catholics/protestants)
>Why aren't there any in Shadowrun (in 205x)?

Tecnhnically, it's not racism, but you have a point... I believe FASA
prefers to stay out of this already tangled mess of intolerance....

Bira
Message no. 39
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: coal, natural gas and mineral oil?
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 15:05:33 -0300
At 22:46 10/07/98 +0200, you wrote:
>Ubiratan P. Alberton wrote:
>
>> Yes it is... To make fusion you don't need heat, it's not a chain
reaction.
>> Fusion produces heat. I believe thare are some experimental fusion
plants in
>> England, some huge metal cylinders that use a magnectic field to cram
hydrogen
>> atoms togheter. I believe they once got 80MW out of it... (in a 2-second
test,
>> but it's still impressive.).
>>
>> Bira
>
> Now where's the problem getting energy from fusion when they
>a)know to make the magnetic field
>b) know how to controll the reaction ?
>
>Greg said the problem is to get the energy into electricity (IIRC), but it
>shouldn't be too difficult to use water and turbines that are driven by
steam of
>the heated water (as is with fission), wouldn't it?
>
>Blix
>


The magnetic field is produced by the electromagnets on the inside of the
cylinder (tokamak [sp?]). The reaction is controlled by this field, wich
contains
all the heat procuced and prevents it from melting the cylinder along with
all the UK :) . It's still experimental, as I said, so they probably don't
make it
into electric energy yet, just measure the power output of the reactions.

Bira

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