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From:	BRYAN KENNEDY REED <KUCLOAK@*******.BITNET>
Subject:	Re: Combat pool.
Date:	Thu, 29 Oct 92 02:34:12 CET

Message no. 1 > >Theseus (ork street sam) and myself (Jake, physical adept) are being
> >shot at by a few disagreeable gents who are armed to the teeth.
> >Theseus takes the first burst:
> >
> >Thug 1 gets three sucesses with an HK 227 on burst fire (making it a
> >10S attack from 7M). Theseus gets four sucesses (three body, one
> >combat pool; target number 5 [armor jacket]). Theseus takes a serious
> >wound since he does not get enough sucesses more than the thug to stage it
> >down.
>
> BUZZ!! Wrong! If you got 4 successes and the thug with the HK 227 had
> 3 successes, you took NO damage. You subtract suceesses before you
> stage the weapon. It makes a big difference. Note well though, you
> did get hit, it just didn't do anything.
>

Wait a sec...(sound of pages being fliped)...check out page 91, 2nd
col:

I quote:
"If the target's successes exceed the attacker's, the target
can reduce the weapon's base damage downward. The base damage of the
weapon drops by one Damage Level for every two full successes the
target rolls over the attacker's total. If the damage falls below
Light, no damage occurs."

Theseus only got one more success than the thug (4-3=1) and therefore
does not stage the damage down at all. But Jake gets the same number
of sucesses against an identical attack. Why does he take no damage?
Let's look at the rules again: (Same page, right where we left off.)

"If the target's Combat Pool dice alone are enough to exceed the
attacker's sucesses, the attack is a clean miss."

Hence my examples above and below are correct.

> >
> >Now it's my turn (happy, happy, joy, joy):
> >
> >Thug 2 also gets three sucesses with an identical weapon (again making
> >it a 10S attack.) I get four sucesses, but all from my combat pool.
> >Since I get more sucesses than the thug just from my combat pool, it
> >is a clean miss.

[EXTRANIOUS STUFF DELETED]

--

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Invincibility depends on one's self; kucloak@*****.cc.ukans.edu
The enemy's vulnerability on him. bkreed@*****.cc.ukans.edu
--Sun Tzu Bryan Kennedy Reed
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From:	Jason Larke <jlarke@***.ITD.UMICH.EDU>
Subject:	Combat Pool
Date:	Sun, 4 Apr 93 19:38:54 -0400

Message no. 2 There has been a lot of debate in our group about what the
target for combat pool dodge dice should be. The consensus
is that just using power level minus armor is innacurate-
the power of the gun has nothing to do with the character's
ability to get out of the way. Just using a 4, modified by
wounds, seems to work OK, but that makes it pretty hard to
avoid a good shot...

Here's my latest thought. Eliminate cover mods. Instead,
assume that the characters *always* look for cover, and assign
dodge difficulty according to wound mods and availability
of cover.

This way, someone in an obstacle course (easy cover, dif 2 or 3)
who chooses to use all his CP dice for dodge (minimal time for
aiming when he pops up to fire) will be almost impossible
to hit. A wounded character on a featureless plain, by contrast,
will be cold meat.

What do y'all think?

From:	ROBERSON@***.EDU
Subject:	Combat Pool
Date:	Fri, 9 Apr 93 02:45:45 CET

Message no. 3 That's it, I'll have to go pull out MY rulebook and read it carefully. But
before I do that I'll just throw my opinion up to be used as target practice.

I agree with with Magister that Carter is interpreting the rules rather
literally in defining what is actually happening. I recognize that the Combat
Pool is NOT a dodge pool. To me, it is representative of your experience and
prowess at combat. Its constituents, Intelligence, Wilpower, and Quickness all
have their place in its defintion:

Intelligence is your ability to quickly analyze a situation and act accordingly.
Quickness is your ability to move/dodge to avoid attack or improve your attack.

Willpower is your "will to live/win", a measure of how driven you are to succeed
Now this last bit, Willpower, is why I would let Combat Pool be used fordamage
resistance tests. The power of the mind over the body is rather amazing,
especially under the influence of combat-generated adrenalin (let's leave the
pump out of this).

As far as I know (and I will be reading up on this later) Combat Pool allows
youto:

Increase your own attack
Avoid an incoming attack
Resist damage from an attack

It seems to me that the player would have a choice as to taking damage
and resisting or avoiding it in the first place. This decision would rest on
thesituation. Now the only time the target numbers would be different is if you
are treating the CP as a dodge/attack pool only or if the target to "dodge" is
based on something besides the power of the weapon, both variants that have
appeared on the board.
SO: Here's my proposal:
Avoiding an attack and resisting damage from an attack are two different
processes. Therefore, I would assign a target number to dodge different
from the target to resist damage. (I won't say what because I'm still
considering it). The target can allocate CP dice to dodge. Remaining
CP dice can be used to resist attack (should the "dodge" fail) or
increase the effectiveness of an attack. Again, the player's choice
will vary from situation to situation. A character with low body will
pour dice into dodging, unless the attacker is very good, in which case
the target will save it for resisting damage.

It's amazing how much discussion comes from one rules variation

J Roberson

From:	IAN <U96_JHURLEY1@******.BITNET>
Subject:	Combat pool
Date:	Fri, 9 Apr 93 18:37:24 CET

Message no. 4 According to the rules, to resist firearms damage, you roll body+combat pool.
You are supposed to roll cp dice in a seperate color dice or something, so if
you get more successes than the attacker, he misses. If not, those successes,
PLUS body successes are used to stage down.

From:	ROBERSON@***.EDU
Subject:	Combat Pool
Date:	Sat, 10 Apr 93 00:20:50 CET

Message no. 5 OK, So we've defined that a complete miss is the result of making the
resistancetest completely with Combat Pool. But what does that mean? Does it
have any
effect besides defining what has actually happened. Even in the case of stun
weapons, which are negated entirely by a clean miss *according to SR1; I don't
know about SR2) I would assume that if a couple of body dice are used to
successfully resist then it means that the charge wasn't in effective contact
long enough to take effect. As I said before, differentiating between CP dice
and Body dice when resisting damage only makes sense if the TNs are different.

J Roberson

From:	Montgomery Box <box@***.USC.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Combat Pool
Date:	Fri, 9 Apr 93 16:09:27 PDT

Message no. 6 There is a difference between the two results. If you resist the damage
using only Combat Pool dice, then the you don't get hit. Otherwise, you
were hit, even if you took no damage from the hit. Also, if you are hit
at all, then you must make a Body test to resist being knocked back or down,
though I haven't seen anyone use that particular rule.

Well, hope this clears it up some,

Later,
Monte Box
box@***.usc.edu

From:	WINDMACHER <tracynorris%dlu.dnet@***.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Combat Pool
Date:	Sat, 10 Apr 93 20:37:47 -0500

Message no. 7 >There is a difference between the two results. If you resist the damage
>using only Combat Pool dice, then the you don't get hit. Otherwise, you
>were hit, even if you took no damage from the hit. Also, if you are hit
>at all, then you must make a Body test to resist being knocked back or down,
>though I haven't seen anyone use that particular rule.
>
>Well, hope this clears it up some,
>

We don't use the knock down/back rule in my campaigns either...Seems like to
much difficulty for the small amount of effect it has...Now, if some one
were standing on the edge of a great cliff and were hit by burst shot from
a Predator II, that might be a different story!

T Norris
(Windmacher)

From:	IAN <U96_JHURLEY1@******.BITNET>
Subject:	Re: Combat pool
Date:	Mon, 12 Apr 93 16:18:50 CET

Message no. 8 Ahme. The reason for differentiating CP Dice is that *if you get as many
or more successes with your combat pool dice as your opponent does*, the attack
has no effect, and monofilament whip users must check for an attack against them
selves.

From:	The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject:	Combat Pool
Date:	Thu, 7 Oct 1993 09:19:22 -0500

Message no. 9 I thought Combat Pool, like all other pools, was limited to the stat being
used in rating. As in, I have CP 9 and Fireamrs 4, I can only pump 4 CP into
my Fireamrs test. Or deckers can only pump their Com[puter skill in CP into
tests (Sorry, that should be hacking pool, not CP for this second example).

I dont' recall an exception being made for damage resistance tests, but with
my memory that doesn't mean anything.

J Roberson

From:	"Dark Thought Publications." <JEK5313@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Combat Pool
Date:	Thu, 7 Oct 1993 12:48:51 -0500

Message no. 10 J Roberson:
]I dont' recall an exception being made for damage resistance tests, but with
]my memory that doesn't mean anything.

Righty-right my good man. There _is_ the exception of damage resistance, and
drain resistance, and a couple udders.
Why don't you upgrade? I'm running 4Mb w 1Mb VRAM now. . .

--Flare <NULLSIG COURTESY OF DOOM>

Dark Thought Publications & Doom Technologies, Inc.
>>> Working on solutions best left in the dark.

From:	Dennis Watson <watson@*******.SCRI.FSU.EDU>
Subject:	Combat Pool
Date:	Fri, 8 Oct 1993 00:20:24 EDT

Message no. 11 On your question about how much combat pool to use in the case of a
Sammy with extras...
...good question.
Me, I use this rule. Since the source material is sort of vague, I
treat things like enhanced articulation or the physad powers as extra
dice to throw with the skill test. So in the case of a street sam
with firearms 6, enhanced articulation, and a combat pool of 9 (nice
stats, BTW), the boy would get 6 for skill, 6 for combat pool, and an
extra 1 'cause he went out and bought some nice bioware. Total, 13.
He still won't kill the Dragon.
This becomes important for things like resisted stealth tests too.
Say your Sam is trying to sneak by a guard. Both have stealth 5, but
your Sam also has enhanced articulation. Both Sam and guard are
rolling for 5, the other person's skill, but the guard rolls 5 dice
whereas the Sam gets 5 + 1 for 6. Nothing earth-shattering, but a
nice edge.
This little house rule has worked well for me. I don't know or
care if it's what was intended by the game designers, so take it as
you will.
--
Lord Dennis E. Watson, B.A.M.F., Master of the Cheese.
"Okay, here's the plan. First we'll try to sneak in. If that fails,
we bluff our way through. If that fails, we shoot anything that
moves, get what we want, and then shoot our way out."
"I didn't say it was a _good_ plan."

From:	Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Combat Pool
Date:	Fri, 8 Oct 1993 14:05:59 +0930

Message no. 12 >
>J Roberson:
>]I dont' recall an exception being made for damage resistance tests, but with
>]my memory that doesn't mean anything.
>
>
>Righty-right my good man. There _is_ the exception of damage resistance, and
>drain resistance, and a couple udders.
>Why don't you upgrade? I'm running 4Mb w 1Mb VRAM now. . .
>
> --Flare <NULLSIG COURTESY OF DOOM>
Drain resistance?? I've always played that magicians can only use magic pool
dice for magic related tests... ('cepting damage from being zapped, of course).

--
Robert Watkins
bob@******.cs.ntu.edu.au
************ It wouldn't be luck if you could get out of life alive. ***********

From:	"GCS/MU d? -P+ c++ l u-(+) e+(++) m(+)(*)@ s/+ n-(---) h f+@ w+
Subject:	Re: Combat Pool
Date:	Fri, 8 Oct 1993 12:06:36 -0400

Message no. 13 ]>
]>J Roberson:
]>]I dont' recall an exception being made for damage resistance tests, but with
]>]my memory that doesn't mean anything.
]>
]>
]>Righty-right my good man. There _is_ the exception of damage resistance, and
]>drain resistance, and a couple udders.
]>Why don't you upgrade? I'm running 4Mb w 1Mb VRAM now. . .
]>
]> --Flare <NULLSIG COURTESY OF DOOM>
]Drain resistance?? I've always played that magicians can only use magic pool
]dice for magic related tests... ('cepting damage from being zapped, of course).
]
]--
]Robert Watkins
]bob@******.cs.ntu.edu.au
]************ It wouldn't be luck if you could get out of life alive. **********
*

Survey sats: BZZZZZZZZTTTTTTT..
Read any, ANY example of someone casting a spell in SRI, SRII, or
Grimthingy. ALL of them say "Blah puts x amount of magic pool dice to
resist drain, and rolls f+(mp-x) dice for the spell..."

Besides, resisting drain IS a magic related test: the test to see whether
or not you DIE from using magic!

--Short Fuse

"You mean I have to resist a 12D+1 with 2 body dice? No problem!"
--Me, in my former character (the french elven mage). BTW, I
rolled 2 12's.....

From:	"Dark Thought Publications." <JEK5313@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Combat Pool
Date:	Fri, 8 Oct 1993 15:30:52 -0500

Message no. 14 --Short Fuse:
]Survey sats: BZZZZZZZZTTTTTTT..
]Read any, ANY example of someone casting a spell in SRI, SRII, or
]Grimthingy. ALL of them say "Blah puts x amount of magic pool dice to
]resist drain, and rolls f+(mp-x) dice for the spell..."
]
]Besides, resisting drain IS a magic related test: the test to see whether
]or not you DIE from using magic!

Um, er, that's not the way it is anymore. Now it's "Blah allocates x dice from
his Magic Pool for the casting of the spell, and then resists drain with
whatever's left-over that he wants to use" until he runs out of dice to roll.

--Loki <Controlling Decker with Magic Fingers and Control Thoughts>
[Buy my book. On sale now: Loki's Decking Method ]
[Amaze your friends. Control your enemies. How to avoid ]
[Black IC. Just 19.95Y from this special Matrix offer. ]
[Order now and receive, absolutely free, a Ginsu(tm) ]
[Cop-Chopper, guaranteed to go through any armor on the ]
[street today, and still remain razor-sharp! ]

From:	"GCS/MU d? -P+ c++ l u-(+) e+(++) m(+)(*)@ s/+ n-(---) h f+@ w+
Subject:	Re: Combat Pool
Date:	Fri, 8 Oct 1993 17:56:31 -0400

Message no. 15 }--Short Fuse:
}]Survey sats: BZZZZZZZZTTTTTTT..
}]Read any, ANY example of someone casting a spell in SRI, SRII, or
}]Grimthingy. ALL of them say "Blah puts x amount of magic pool dice to
}]resist drain, and rolls f+(mp-x) dice for the spell..."
}]
}]Besides, resisting drain IS a magic related test: the test to see whether
}]or not you DIE from using magic!
}
}--Loki:
}Um, er, that's not the way it is anymore. Now it's "Blah allocates x dice from
}his Magic Pool for the casting of the spell, and then resists drain with
}whatever's left-over that he wants to use" until he runs out of dice to roll.

O-be, K-be, itsa da samea thinga, onlya littla differetna....
Soa suea mea (anda seea whata youa geta:)

--Short Fuse

"It's the quivering hord of pennies, led by a quarter! Run away! Run
away!"

From:	MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Combat Pool
Date:	Fri, 10 Jun 1994 19:41:04 +1000

Message no. 16 And now, just after your sick of all my bantering:

My all time favourite question:

Why have the target number for the combat pool dice equal to the power of
the weapon minus your armour?

There, its probably been asked dozens of times before, but, he, as I said
before, i've only been on here a short time, so don't flame me. (please -
I've never been flamed yet, and I'm rather proud of it :)

Damion

From:	Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Combat Pool
Date:	Fri, 10 Jun 1994 10:18:58 -0700

Message no. 17 On Fri, 10 Jun 1994, MILLIKEN DAMION A wrote:

> And now, just after your sick of all my bantering:
>
> My all time favourite question:
>
> Why have the target number for the combat pool dice equal to the power of
> the weapon minus your armour?

Why not have it something like the Firearms Skill of the slag shooting at
you? Because the other way simplifies combat. Simplification was what
the designers looked for. It works, it's simple, and it allows the
player to handle the whole thing with one die roll. Plus Karma rerolls,
of course.

Think about rolling Combat Pool against the shooter's Skill. Would you
get to add Karma Pool dice? How many? Then you roll you Body against
the incoming (Force - Armor Rating). Would you get Karma Pool there too?
The by-the-book way is simpler. And it doesn't let the player roll as
many Karma Pool dice and rerolls too.

> There, its probably been asked dozens of times before, but, he, as I said
> before, i've only been on here a short time, so don't flame me. (please -
> I've never been flamed yet, and I'm rather proud of it :)

You sure busted that run of luck when you challenged my game with your
first post.

> Damion
>

Ivy

From:	MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Combat Pool
Date:	Sun, 12 Jun 1994 01:02:27 +1000

Message no. 18 Ivy writes:
> Think about rolling Combat Pool against the shooter's Skill. Would you
> get to add Karma Pool dice? How many? Then you roll you Body against
> the incoming (Force - Armor Rating). Would you get Karma Pool there too?
> The by-the-book way is simpler. And it doesn't let the player roll as
> many Karma Pool dice and rerolls too.

Youw would roll the same number of dice as before, therefore you would be
able to roll the same number of additional karma pool dice.

> > There, its probably been asked dozens of times before, but, he, as I said
> > before, i've only been on here a short time, so don't flame me. (please -
> > I've never been flamed yet, and I'm rather proud of it :)
>
> You sure busted that run of luck when you challenged my game with your
> first post.

:-(

Sorry you took it as a challenge, if your that easily insulted or offended
then i'll take more care to include copious amounts of :-) type things when
commenting on your posts in the furure :-) It was only meant as an
observation.

Damion
All the much wiser about the warning in the Netequette booklet they gave us
about text not having the same degree of expression as the spoken word in
regard to sarcasm and the like.

From:	Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Combat Pool
Date:	Sat, 11 Jun 1994 18:28:02 -0700

Message no. 19 On Sun, 12 Jun 1994, MILLIKEN DAMION A wrote:

> Ivy writes:
> > Think about rolling Combat Pool against the shooter's Skill. Would you
> > get to add Karma Pool dice? How many? Then you roll you Body against
> > the incoming (Force - Armor Rating). Would you get Karma Pool there too?
> > The by-the-book way is simpler. And it doesn't let the player roll as
> > many Karma Pool dice and rerolls too.
>
> Youw would roll the same number of dice as before, therefore you would be
> able to roll the same number of additional karma pool dice.

Then how would you handle the different sets (Body and Combat
Pool<Dodge>) dice? You have me confused. And what about the person with
Firearms 14 who uses a Light Pistol (She has a license for that).
Instead of rolling vs (6 - Armor Rating) the victim would be rolling
against (14 - Armor Rating) instead. Yet the firearm hasn't changed.

>
> > > There, its probably been asked dozens of times before, but, he, as I said
> > > before, i've only been on here a short time, so don't flame me. (please -
> > > I've never been flamed yet, and I'm rather proud of it :)
> >
> > You sure busted that run of luck when you challenged my game with your
> > first post.
>
> :-(
>
> Sorry you took it as a challenge, if your that easily insulted or offended
> then i'll take more care to include copious amounts of :-) type things when
> commenting on your posts in the furure :-) It was only meant as an
> observation.

Sorry Damion, but I'd already had a hard morning. And several other
challenging posts on my game. I think we should have a record for times
played, actually.

> Damion
> All the much wiser about the warning in the Netequette booklet they gave us
> about text not having the same degree of expression as the spoken word in
> regard to sarcasm and the like.
>
Yes, it is a problem. I ran into the same thing when I started on the
net. Sorry for being so touchy.

Ivy

From:	MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Combat Pool
Date:	Sun, 12 Jun 1994 16:28:43 +1000

Message no. 20 Ivy writes:
> > > Think about rolling Combat Pool against the shooter's Skill. Would you
> > > get to add Karma Pool dice? How many? Then you roll you Body against
> > > the incoming (Force - Armor Rating). Would you get Karma Pool there too?
> > > The by-the-book way is simpler. And it doesn't let the player roll as
> > > many Karma Pool dice and rerolls too.
> >
> > Youw would roll the same number of dice as before, therefore you would be
> > able to roll the same number of additional karma pool dice.
>
> Then how would you handle the different sets (Body and Combat
> Pool<Dodge>) dice? You have me confused. And what about the person with
> Firearms 14 who uses a Light Pistol (She has a license for that).
> Instead of rolling vs (6 - Armor Rating) the victim would be rolling
> against (14 - Armor Rating) instead. Yet the firearm hasn't changed.

Perhaps I didn't explain what I meant. Ya roll ya combat pool vs whatever
target number you have decided on, be it the attacker skill or as some other
clever person thought up 12 minus the attackers target number (I ratehr like
that, as the harder it is to hit a target, the easier it is to dodge, and
vice versa), adding karma pool dice. You then roll ya body dice against
power minus armour, again adding combat pool dice. If ya had combat pool 6
and body 5, then normally you would roll 11 dice (assuming ya put in all
comabt pool) against target number power minus armour, and you could add a
max of 11 karma pool dice. The other way, you would roll 6 dice vs the
"target number" with a max of 6 karma poll dice, then 5 vs power minus
armour, with a max of 5 karma pool dice. Eitehr way, you only get 11 karma
pool dice max. The concern of mine was what to use as a target number.

> > > > There, its probably been asked dozens of times before, but, he, as I
said
> > > > before, i've only been on here a short time, so don't flame me.
(please -
> > > > I've never been flamed yet, and I'm rather proud of it :)
> > >
> > > You sure busted that run of luck when you challenged my game with your
> > > first post.
> >
> > :-(
> >
> > Sorry you took it as a challenge, if your that easily insulted or offended
> > then i'll take more care to include copious amounts of :-) type things when
> > commenting on your posts in the furure :-) It was only meant as an
> > observation.
>
> Sorry Damion, but I'd already had a hard morning. And several other
> challenging posts on my game. I think we should have a record for times
> played, actually.

I think so too :-)

> > Damion
> > All the much wiser about the warning in the Netequette booklet they gave us
> > about text not having the same degree of expression as the spoken word in
> > regard to sarcasm and the like.
> >
> Yes, it is a problem. I ran into the same thing when I started on the
> net. Sorry for being so touchy.

Ya, that was the first time I've ever posted anything, all my email
previously has been to friends. Ya live and ya learn I guess.

>Ivy

Damion

PS, how come you are about the only person (besides us newbies with no
imaginations) who doesn't have a sig?

From:	Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Combat Pool
Date:	Sun, 12 Jun 1994 09:41:59 -0700

Message no. 21 On Sun, 12 Jun 1994, MILLIKEN DAMION A wrote:

> Ivy writes:
> > > > Think about rolling Combat Pool against the shooter's Skill. Would
you
> > > able to roll the same number of additional karma pool dice.
> >
> > Then how would you handle the different sets (Body and Combat
> > Pool<Dodge>) dice? You have me confused. And what about the person with
>
> Perhaps I didn't explain what I meant. Ya roll ya combat pool vs whatever
> target number you have decided on, be it the attacker skill or as some other
> clever person thought up 12 minus the attackers target number (I ratehr like
> that, as the harder it is to hit a target, the easier it is to dodge, and
> vice versa), adding karma pool dice. You then roll ya body dice against
> power minus armour, again adding combat pool dice. If ya had combat pool 6
> and body 5, then normally you would roll 11 dice (assuming ya put in all
> comabt pool) against target number power minus armour, and you could add a
> max of 11 karma pool dice. The other way, you would roll 6 dice vs the

Aha, Now I see the problem. The rules (SRII pg.191, under Buying
Additional Dice) rather clearly state that the limit for Karma Pool dice
is the Attribute, Skill or Rating of the Tested whatever *Not including
other pool dice* so if you have a Body of 5, that's all the addditional
Karma pool dice you can add. Your "system" allows the use of '6 more
dice' than the rules do.

> "target number" with a max of 6 karma poll dice, then 5 vs power minus
> armour, with a max of 5 karma pool dice. Eitehr way, you only get 11 karma
> pool dice max. The concern of mine was what to use as a target number.
>
> > > > > There, its probably been asked dozens of times before, but, he,
as I said
> > > > > before, i've only been on here a short time, so don't flame me.
(please -
> > > > > I've never been flamed yet, and I'm rather proud of it :)
> > > >
> > > > You sure busted that run of luck when you challenged my game with your
> > > > first post.
> > >
> > > :-(
> > >
> > > Sorry you took it as a challenge, if your that easily insulted or offended
> > > then i'll take more care to include copious amounts of :-) type things when
> > > commenting on your posts in the furure :-) It was only meant as an
> > > observation.
> >
> > Sorry Damion, but I'd already had a hard morning. And several other
> > challenging posts on my game. I think we should have a record for times
> > played, actually.
>
> I think so too :-)
>
> > > Damion
> > > All the much wiser about the warning in the Netequette booklet they gave us
> > > about text not having the same degree of expression as the spoken word in
> > > regard to sarcasm and the like.
> > >
> > Yes, it is a problem. I ran into the same thing when I started on the
> > net. Sorry for being so touchy.
>
> Ya, that was the first time I've ever posted anything, all my email
> previously has been to friends. Ya live and ya learn I guess.
>
> >Ivy
>
> Damion
>
> PS, how come you are about the only person (besides us newbies with no
> imaginations) who doesn't have a sig?
>
I don't have any way to auto-sign on here. If I did, I might not have a
sig. even then though. They seem fatuous.

Ivy

From:	MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Combat Pool
Date:	Mon, 13 Jun 1994 13:11:37 +1000

Message no. 22 Ivy writes:
> > Perhaps I didn't explain what I meant. Ya roll ya combat pool vs whatever
> > target number you have decided on, be it the attacker skill or as some other
> > clever person thought up 12 minus the attackers target number (I ratehr like
> > that, as the harder it is to hit a target, the easier it is to dodge, and
> > vice versa), adding karma pool dice. You then roll ya body dice against
> > power minus armour, again adding combat pool dice. If ya had combat pool 6
> > and body 5, then normally you would roll 11 dice (assuming ya put in all
> > comabt pool) against target number power minus armour, and you could add a
> > max of 11 karma pool dice. The other way, you would roll 6 dice vs the
>
> Aha, Now I see the problem. The rules (SRII pg.191, under Buying
> Additional Dice) rather clearly state that the limit for Karma Pool dice
> is the Attribute, Skill or Rating of the Tested whatever *Not including
> other pool dice* so if you have a Body of 5, that's all the addditional
> Karma pool dice you can add. Your "system" allows the use of '6 more
> dice' than the rules do.

Ah, I see. OK then, don't allow extra karma dice on the combat pool dice
roll? that would seem to solve the problem.

Damion

From:	Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Combat Pool
Date:	Mon, 13 Jun 1994 13:05:49 -0700

Message no. 23 On Fri, 10 Jun 1994, Ivy Ryan wrote:

> You sure busted that run of luck when you challenged my game with your
> first post.
>
> Ivy
Whoah! I don't think Damien and Rob were "challenging" your
game, just trying to make commentary. This mail-list is supposed to
enable that, right?
Personally, I don't have any problems with 350+ Karma Pool
characters, but if I did, as long as I voiced my sentiments as a
discussion of how such a thing came to be it would be okay, right?
I could say something like, "Hmmm...I wonder how you could
challenge such a character?" or "Hmmm...I wonder how long it would take
to make such a character?" without implying that you're a bad GM,
munchkinous, or in any fashion insulting you.
Similiarly, I'd expect that if I said such a thing, I wouldn't be
insulted for "not being able to handle it" or such things.
As far as it goes, since I GM an advanced group of players, and I
hand out Karma like candy, I expect that I can throw some really nasty
stuff at my players and have them survive. The survival techniques are
up to them to play but I have faith that they can do it. I don't think
twice about it except when the occasional character falls.
I see shadowrunners as living in a fast lane. They're on the
ride of their lives' but it could crash at any moment and the longer they
stay on, the harder and deadlier it gets to get off. Also, the deadlier
it gets to stay on. Sort of like Thermodynamics for Poker:
1) You cannot win.
2) You cannot even break even.
3) You cannot stop playing the game.

We're all in it for fun, after all.

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+

From:	Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Combat Pool
Date:	Tue, 14 Jun 1994 12:51:20 -0700

Message no. 24 On Mon, 13 Jun 1994, Adam Getchell wrote:

> On Fri, 10 Jun 1994, Ivy Ryan wrote:
>
> > You sure busted that run of luck when you challenged my game with your
> > first post.
> >
> > Ivy
> Whoah! I don't think Damien and Rob were "challenging" your
> game, just trying to make commentary. This mail-list is supposed to
> enable that, right?
> Personally, I don't have any problems with 350+ Karma Pool
> characters, but if I did, as long as I voiced my sentiments as a
> discussion of how such a thing came to be it would be okay, right?

Actually Adam, I was on a bad footing that day, and I've already
apologized to both Damion and Rob. I read their posts from the wrong
viewpoint.

> I could say something like, "Hmmm...I wonder how you could
> challenge such a character?" or "Hmmm...I wonder how long it would take
> to make such a character?" without implying that you're a bad GM,
> munchkinous, or in any fashion insulting you.
> Similiarly, I'd expect that if I said such a thing, I wouldn't be
> insulted for "not being able to handle it" or such things.
> As far as it goes, since I GM an advanced group of players, and I
> hand out Karma like candy, I expect that I can throw some really nasty
> stuff at my players and have them survive. The survival techniques are
> up to them to play but I have faith that they can do it. I don't think
> twice about it except when the occasional character falls.
> I see shadowrunners as living in a fast lane. They're on the
> ride of their lives' but it could crash at any moment and the longer they
> stay on, the harder and deadlier it gets to get off. Also, the deadlier
> it gets to stay on. Sort of like Thermodynamics for Poker:
> 1) You cannot win.
> 2) You cannot even break even.
> 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
>
> We're all in it for fun, after all.

Yeah, I agree with you. So do my two main players. Their Characters are
still in it for the adrenaline rush. Deadly to ride, deadly to get off.
I like that description of the game.

> +-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
> |Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
> | acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the
opponent"|
> +-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
>
Ivy

From:	Mike and Jill Johnson <mnj@******.NET>
Subject:	Re: Combat Pool
Date:	Mon, 17 Jul 1995 14:58:00 MDT

Message no. 25 >
>That is correct - Unfortunately Joe CG doesn't get to use his
>combat pool till his turn but those 20 dice skill is prob enough
>to do the job without combat dice. BUT, give Joe SS a decent
>
>Creative Editting<

Whoa, are you saying Joe CG don't get to use his combat pool when Joe SS comes
swinging at him? I thought the whole point of the pool was to be able to use
it at anytime. His pool won't re-fresh until the beginning of *his* next
combat
round.

Jill

From:	Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject:	Combat Pool
Date:	Fri, 29 Aug 1997 00:30:30 -0400

Message no. 26 Here's something I thought of the other night as I was calculating Combat
Pool for one of my characters.

Due to the way that combat pool is calculated, the combat oriented
characters (namely Sammys and the like) take a serious hit in points of
Combat Pool.

Now, your average Sammy type character, who's main strength is his combat
ability, will generall have high physical stats (base 5's, at least), while
his mental stats will be considerably lower (Normally base 3's, sometimes
2's and 1's for Orks and TRolls).

I looked at several of my characters, and realized that, on average, Mage
and Shaman Characters, as well as Deckers, often have a higher Combat Pool
than a Sammy Character. Why? Because usually a Sammy has only one of the
3 Attributes that are calculated for Comabt pool at a decent level,
Quickness. Mages and Deckers will usually have at least 2 of the 3 at
decent levels. Quickness for both, while Magic types will have a high
Willpower and Deckers have a High Intelligence. Also, mages tend to have
above average Intelligences as well, since that affects there astral form.

This doesn;t make sense to me. I would think that Sammy-types would have a
high Combat pool, while Other characters would usually have much lower CP,
since that's not the focus of their charcter. Thats why they get pools of
their own (Hacking, Magic, and Control).

I'm starting a new campign, and I'm playing with the rules some,
considering using a few "alternate" rules, and I'fd like to try a different
Combat Pool method, though I havenm;t devised one that works yet.

One though was an average of their Quickness and their highest Combat Skill
(Firearms, Unarmed, or armed). I'm not sure yet if I'd allow them to count
specializations yet or not,

Another method might be an average of their Physical Stats ([B+Q+S]/3),
though this also may need to be based on unmodified stats, as there are so
many physical attributes thata re affected so drastically by Bio and Cyber.
This would better reflect fighting prowess of the sammies, though I
understand why Combat Pool is currently based on the stats it is.

Any suggestions or current houserules on tyhis subject are welcome, as I
will be playing with alternate rules in the new campign...

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
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From:	Wind Dancer <winddancer@***********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Combat Pool
Date:	Fri, 29 Aug 1997 03:42:56 -0400

Message no. 27 At 12:30 AM 8/29/97 -0400, Bull wrote:
>One though was an average of their Quickness and their highest Combat Skill
>(Firearms, Unarmed, or armed). I'm not sure yet if I'd allow them to count
>specializations yet or not,

This may work, but when someone is specialized, will you be counting how
many dice befor specialization were available, or after specialization. If
not counting specialization, some of the general sammies would have more
dice than one who has more skill in a select group of weapons. That doesn't
really sound right to me...

>Another method might be an average of their Physical Stats ([B+Q+S]/3),
>though this also may need to be based on unmodified stats, as there are so
>many physical attributes thata re affected so drastically by Bio and Cyber.
>This would better reflect fighting prowess of the sammies, though I
>understand why Combat Pool is currently based on the stats it is.

Ok, by deviding by three, you are going to be ending up with smaller combat
pools on average. Why not take those three stats and divide by 2? Like in
the normal system, but with different stats. It could also be feezable to
calculate the combat pool by this formula [(B+Q+S+I+W)/4].. That would seem
to give the best pool overall, since it would be covering all aspects of why
there is a combat pool.

WD

From:	Shaun Hall <Hard.master@********.ATT.NET>
Subject:	Re: Combat Pool
Date:	Fri, 29 Aug 1997 05:05:41 -0700

Message no. 28 :
: Due to the way that combat pool is calculated, the combat oriented
: characters (namely Sammys and the like) take a serious hit in points of
: Combat Pool.
:
: There is a reason for this. Each stat has an effect on the combat
capability of the character. For quickness it is obvious. For intelligence
I think it is pretty clear as well smarter characters assess the combat
situation more quickly, decide on a course of action more readily, and spot
weaknesses they can take advantage of better than less intelligent
characters. Willpower represents the characters ability to keep their head
in a firefight, and their ability to disregard damage during the fight.
The other stats have an effect on combat. Strength determines how well
you resist recoil, and how much damage you do in mele combat. Body
determines how well you resist damage. There is no reason to change the
system.
You should also remember that although mages and deckers may have
higher combat pools they can only add a number of combat pool dice equal to
their combat skill to an attack. So it doesn't help them that much. I
player a troll with a combat pool of 5 and I never had a problem
outperforming mages and deckers in straight combat.

From:	Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject:	Re: Combat Pool
Date:	Fri, 29 Aug 1997 07:59:29 -0400

Message no. 29 > From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
> Date: Friday, August 29, 1997 12:30 AM

<Snip>

> This doesn;t make sense to me. I would think that Sammy-types would have
a
> high Combat pool, while Other characters would usually have much lower
CP,
> since that's not the focus of their charcter. Thats why they get pools
of
> their own (Hacking, Magic, and Control).

> I'm starting a new campign, and I'm playing with the rules some,
> considering using a few "alternate" rules, and I'fd like to try a
different
> Combat Pool method, though I havenm;t devised one that works yet.

> One though was an average of their Quickness and their highest Combat
Skill
> (Firearms, Unarmed, or armed). I'm not sure yet if I'd allow them to
count
> specializations yet or not,

Okay, first I would NOT base the combat pool on any form of skill. Combat
pool is a general catch-all combat prowness and awareness, and no skill
should be used to figure it. Also, the attributes they use make the most
sense. I mean, how does your body figure into how well you can dodge a
bullet? Or even your strength for that matter? They don't, or at least
don't in enough of a way to where they are figured into the Combat Pool.

My suggestion: Add one simple thing to the current formula: (Quickness +
Quickness + Willpower + Intelligence) divided by 3. That should (I think)
keep the pools about the same size, but allow quickness to be more
influencial.

What do you think?

> Bull

Justin :)

From:	Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Combat Pool
Date:	Fri, 29 Aug 1997 16:06:36 EDT

Message no. 30 On Fri, 29 Aug 1997 00:30:30 -0400 Bull <chaos@*****.COM> writes:

>Due to the way that combat pool is calculated, the combat oriented
>characters (namely Sammys and the like) take a serious hit in points of
>Combat Pool.

Huh? Not that I've seen. Nearly all of the Sams I've seen in our games
have a good 2 to 3 point lead on the other non-sam characters.

>Now, your average Sammy type character, who's main strength is his
combat
>ability, will generall have high physical stats (base 5's, at least),
while
>his mental stats will be considerably lower (Normally base 3's,
sometimes
>2's and 1's for Orks and TRolls).

hmm..that's why. Who's to say that "combat ability" shouldn't include
Intelligence and Willpower. (But true, sometimes you just don't have a
choice)

>I looked at several of my characters, and realized that, on average,
Mage
>and Shaman Characters, as well as Deckers, often have a higher Combat
Pool
>than a Sammy Character. Why? Because usually a Sammy has only one of
the
>3 Attributes that are calculated for Comabt pool at a decent level,
>Quickness. Mages and Deckers will usually have at least 2 of the 3 at
>decent levels. Quickness for both, while Magic types will have a high
>Willpower and Deckers have a High Intelligence. Also, mages tend to
have
>above average Intelligences as well, since that affects there astral
form.

Though I've never run into that particular problem.. I do see how it
could be a bit annoying.

[snip]

>I'm starting a new campign, and I'm playing with the rules some,
>considering using a few "alternate" rules, and I'fd like to try a
different
>Combat Pool method, though I havenm;t devised one that works yet.
>
>One though was an average of their Quickness and their highest Combat
Skill
>(Firearms, Unarmed, or armed). I'm not sure yet if I'd allow them to
count
>specializations yet or not,

Don't use that one... for two reasons.. 1) not much sence in allowing the
martial arts master to count on his skill in melee to improve his aim
with a gun, 2) The pool shouldn't be directly linked to any of the
ratings it's going to augment.

>Another method might be an average of their Physical Stats ([B+Q+S]/3),
>though this also may need to be based on unmodified stats, as there are
so
>many physical attributes thata re affected so drastically by Bio and
Cyber.
>This would better reflect fighting prowess of the sammies, though I
>understand why Combat Pool is currently based on the stats it is.

Body isn't really in the spirit of what the CP is. I don't have much of
a problem seeing the CP increased because of modified stats...after all,
most of what the CP is used for is based on reflexes and if your's are
better than someone elses it doesn't really matter whether they are
chipped or natural - they're still better. Which of course leads to
another solution (albeit, one that would give many Sams a wickedly high
CP): include/substitute Reaction in the calculation...the modified value
of course.

[snip]

~Tim

From:	Wes Nicholson <wes@********.COM.AU>
Subject:	Re: Combat Pool
Date:	Sat, 30 Aug 1997 16:04:17 +1000

Message no. 31 >Due to the way that combat pool is calculated, the combat oriented
>characters (namely Sammys and the like) take a serious hit in points of
>Combat Pool.

Only if you create them that way. I'm gathering from this that you
tend to min/max your characters, and the Combat Pool rule, as it stands, is
a good incentive not to.

I have four regular characters, and my rigger/sam has a much higher
combat pool (and he's a troll) than any of the three magical characters (who
are all human).

Just my 0.02 worth.

Wes

From:	Stefan <casanova@***.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject:	Re: Combat Pool
Date:	Sat, 30 Aug 1997 17:09:40 +0000

Message no. 32 > >Due to the way that combat pool is calculated, the combat oriented
> >characters (namely Sammys and the like) take a serious hit in points of
> >Combat Pool.

Well it all really depends on how in my opinion munchi you are while
creating your character ... Sure it might be appealing to have a few
mega stats and then be subhuman in the other once but in the long run
it aint .... After hugh amounts of experience with this I have
realised (and I guess loads of others have to) that trying to make
the character as even as possible is the best ... Try not to max out
more than one stat ... and then let another one down alittle (usually
charisma if you are the combat type) ...

Even is the word of the day ... We have this problem when I am a
player and our sammy has really high physical attributes (10+) but he
seriously lacks in the mental department ... Result MANABOLT ... He
rarely stands up more than a round or maxium of two cause he bites
the dust when the spells start flying ...

/Stefan

------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Frag you and the datastream you came on!" - Sinjin the decker
------------------------------------------------------------------------
... E-Mail .............................. casanova@***.passagen.se ...
... HomePage .................... http://hem.passagen.se/casanova/ ...
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From:	Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Combat Pool
Date:	Sat, 30 Aug 1997 12:38:29 -0400

Message no. 33 OK, I accidentally trashed the mail that I'm replying to, so I din;t even
know who wrote it, but they pointed out something about making their
character balanced instead of "munchie".

Well... There's a problem with that. Go ahead... make your "average"
character. Even if you put 3's in each of your attributes, and you're
human, that's still 24 points spent on attributes. That's the "B"
priority, or 48 points of attributes! And you end up with a character
that, without help, sucks in every catagory. Without massive cyberware
enhancements, he won't make much of a starting sammy...

Now, I'm not advocating "Munching" out a character, or even Minmaxing...
But what makes a charaxcter a sammy is higher physical attributes. Mages
have a high Willpower and Charisma, and Deckers have a high Intelligence.
Riggers need a decent Quickness and Intelligence, and some really good
skills...

Under the priority system, to "average" out the char at 4's requires
Attributes to be taken at priority "A", thus leaving you with fewer skill
points and money. And you can;t be a metahuman. Plus, you still have, for
a runner, fairly mediocre physical stats. And that also means you're
spending 60 Build points under the point system! That doesn;t leave you
with much, and if you have to take a LOT of flaws just to eke out a few
more points to make your character tougher, you're munching anyways.

Personally, I just don;t see most Sammy/Ganger/Merc types starting out with
a High Intelligence and Willpower. It's not where the character's
strengths are. Of course, tehre are always exceptions to this rule, but
the character will suffer. And a character like a sammy, who will rely
more on his strength and toughness rather than his wits, at least to start,
a few points of strength and toughness can mean life or death.

Starting characters are just that... Starting. Keep in mind that your
average citizen has stats of all 2's and 3's, occasionally one of those
stats will be higher, but it's rare. Characters are better than Average
humans, as they are considered to have some experience, but they're still
Low Man on the totem pole. If they have more than 2 stats at 6 and the
rest at 4 or better, then the rest of their character sheet better damn
well be blank, or else their cheating somewhere. or abusing the Edges and
Flaws (Can you tell that those damned edges and flaws REALLY irk me for
some reason?).

Basically, your sammy will end up with stats like this, if he wants to be
considered a decent sammy. (Keep in mind I'm using Humans as my examples,
for simplicity.) And this is assuming 24 points (Priority B or almost half
my build points, 48).

B: 6
Q: 5
S: 5
I: 3
W: 3
C: 2

Now, will he be able to ha\ndle spells? No. Is he supposed to? No.
That's what the Magicians are in the team for. There's such a thing as
Spell Defence, and this is why it was created. To help iout the magicians
weak willed teammates.

I really like having a character with high stats, but it's just not
realistic for a starting character. Your "physical" characters, the
Sammy's, have to specialize to stay alive in their field.

Bah... I guess this is just one of my pet peeves, in that everyone seems
to think that no character is worth playing if they have a low willpower or
intelligence. Why do they want a high willpower? The first answer is
spell defense. Nice answer, but not in character, is it? Why does there
character have to have a high Intelligence? Reaction! of course! Not
because his character has a college education, or is a scientist on the
side... No no... These things are put in as after thoughts... Never mind
the fact that the character is street scum who ran with a gang all his
life...

In the long run, balanced charcters play the best, I agree. But for a new,
starting character? They end up dead REAL fast, cause they just can;t hack
it in their field...

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"CrapGame, you bitch!"
-- R.C. during the Drive in the Country tournament

From:	Stefan <casanova@***.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject:	Re: Combat Pool
Date:	Sat, 30 Aug 1997 18:59:49 +0000

Message no. 34 > OK, I accidentally trashed the mail that I'm replying to, so I din;t even
> know who wrote it, but they pointed out something about making their
> character balanced instead of "munchie".

Well it was me ... the one ... the only ... Stefan ... :)

> Well... There's a problem with that. Go ahead... make your "average"
> character. Even if you put 3's in each of your attributes, and you're
> human, that's still 24 points spent on attributes. That's the "B"
> priority, or 48 points of attributes! And you end up with a character
> that, without help, sucks in every catagory. Without massive cyberware
> enhancements, he won't make much of a starting sammy...

Sure they might suck in the begining but in the long run it pays off
... IE if your character ain't that good the enemy won't be that good
either ... that is atleast how I run things ... I don't send out the
Red Sammy guard to take out the newbie runners .. Characters are sort
of supposed to suck in the beginning unless you sort of CHEAT or give
them massive amounts of freebies to start with ...

> Now, I'm not advocating "Munching" out a character, or even Minmaxing...
> But what makes a charaxcter a sammy is higher physical attributes. Mages
> have a high Willpower and Charisma, and Deckers have a high Intelligence.
> Riggers need a decent Quickness and Intelligence, and some really good
> skills...

This is where I disagree bigtime ... The supreme warrior should be
someone that is well rounded not lacking anywere so that he does not
have any weaknesses ...

[SNIP]

> Personally, I just don;t see most Sammy/Ganger/Merc types starting out with
> a High Intelligence and Willpower. It's not where the character's
> strengths are. Of course, tehre are always exceptions to this rule, but
> the character will suffer. And a character like a sammy, who will rely
> more on his strength and toughness rather than his wits, at least to start,
> a few points of strength and toughness can mean life or death.

Well perhaps I am the exception then ... Strenght is only good if you
let them come to you ... I say gun them down before ... :)

> Starting characters are just that... Starting. Keep in mind that your
> average citizen has stats of all 2's and 3's, occasionally one of those
> stats will be higher, but it's rare. Characters are better than Average
> humans, as they are considered to have some experience, but they're still
> Low Man on the totem pole. If they have more than 2 stats at 6 and the
> rest at 4 or better, then the rest of their character sheet better damn
> well be blank, or else their cheating somewhere. or abusing the Edges and
> Flaws (Can you tell that those damned edges and flaws REALLY irk me for
> some reason?).

We have not yet implamented the Point system so I really can't
comment this (I have only looked it over once or twice in a hurry so)
.. SUre the runners are better than the average punk but then they
raraely do battle with average citizens so ...

> Basically, your sammy will end up with stats like this, if he wants to be
> considered a decent sammy. (Keep in mind I'm using Humans as my examples,
> for simplicity.) And this is assuming 24 points (Priority B or almost half
> my build points, 48).
>
> B: 6
> Q: 5
> S: 5
> I: 3
> W: 3
> C: 2

Well that ain't what my sammys look like ... they are more like,

B:5
Q:5
S:4
I:4
W:4
C:2

> Now, will he be able to ha\ndle spells? No. Is he supposed to? No.
> That's what the Magicians are in the team for. There's such a thing as
> Spell Defence, and this is why it was created. To help iout the magicians
> weak willed teammates.

Well then you have the initiativ problem ... Mages are almost always
LAST ... sort of two or three attacks after the big bunch of muscles
have started to fire at each other .. and mages are not know to take
large amounts of lead before they bite the dust ...

But lets say they meat a better or speeded mage ... they just take
out the muscles (usually very easy) and then the rest of the group is
dead meat ... What every group needs is someone with Will and Brain
that can FIRE ...

[SNIP]

> In the long run, balanced charcters play the best, I agree. But for a new,
> starting character? They end up dead REAL fast, cause they just can;t hack
> it in their field...

That is really up to you (or the gamemaster) isn't it ? If they suck
so will the enemy ... basic fact of life .. and if they got a brain
they won't try to charge into the Aztechnology office on there first
day of work will they ? :)

/Stefan
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Frag you and the datastream you came on!" - Sinjin the decker
------------------------------------------------------------------------
... E-Mail .............................. casanova@***.passagen.se ...
... HomePage .................... http://hem.passagen.se/casanova/ ...
... ICQ .................................................. 1403212 ...
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	"Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Combat Pool
Date:	Sat, 30 Aug 1997 12:44:53 -0500

Message no. 35 You wrote:
> Well... There's a problem with that. Go ahead... make your "average"
> character. Even if you put 3's in each of your attributes, and you're
> human, that's still 24 points spent on attributes. That's the "B"
> priority, or 48 points of attributes! And you end up with a character
> that, without help, sucks in every catagory. Without massive cyberware
> enhancements, he won't make much of a starting sammy...

> Now, I'm not advocating "Munching" out a character, or even Minmaxing...
> But what makes a charaxcter a sammy is higher physical attributes. Mages
> have a high Willpower and Charisma, and Deckers have a high Intelligence.
> Riggers need a decent Quickness and Intelligence, and some really good
> skills...

> Under the priority system, to "average" out the char at 4's requires
> Attributes to be taken at priority "A",
Um, no, oops, it's a 'B' priority for 24 points in attributes.

> Personally, I just don;t see most Sammy/Ganger/Merc types starting out with
> a High Intelligence and Willpower. It's not where the character's
> strengths are.
Well, remember that intelligence also includes perceptiveness, it's not just
book-smarts, it's also cunning and quick thinking. And willpower? Well...
When you're going to sit in an uncomfortable position for several hours,
waiting for the target to step out and make themselves available to be killed,
you better have some willpower. Same goes for stealth, keeping your cool in a
firefight.. Willpower is definitely important for sammies.

> Basically, your sammy will end up with stats like this, if he wants to be
> considered a decent sammy. (Keep in mind I'm using Humans as my examples,
> for simplicity.) And this is assuming 24 points (Priority B or almost half
> my build points, 48).

{snip}
> Now, will he be able to ha\ndle spells? No. Is he supposed to? No.
> That's what the Magicians are in the team for. There's such a thing as
> Spell Defence, and this is why it was created. To help iout the magicians
> weak willed teammates.

I think you're really approaching this as 'things should be thus-and-so', and
ignoring the fact that characters are a little more diverse than this. What
constitutes a 'decent' sammy is effectiveness, not some list of requirements in
strength, etc. Some are sneaky, some are fast, and some are just downright
strong and vicious, but what makes them samurai is their effectiveness. And
to say that the magicians in the team (if there are any, some have none) are
there to hold off the enemy's spells is hedging them in and giving them a
specific job, which bothers me.

> I really like having a character with high stats, but it's just not
> realistic for a starting character. Your "physical" characters, the
> Sammy's, have to specialize to stay alive in their field.
A 'starting' character, in SR, could actually be an experienced person, (unlike
many games) and thus doesn't have to be slower, weaker, or less effective just
to fit into the 'starting' category. I hated beginning AD&D campaigns because
you had to play through the 'we're a bunch of useless peons' stage rather than
starting as accomplished adventurers. No one wants to play Fafhrd and the Grey
Mouser when they were unskilled dweabs, for the most part, they want to play
them when they have some skill and some reputation!

> Bah... I guess this is just one of my pet peeves, in that everyone seems
> to think that no character is worth playing if they have a low willpower or
> intelligence. Why do they want a high willpower? The first answer is
> spell defense. Nice answer, but not in character, is it? Why does there
> character have to have a high Intelligence? Reaction! of course! Not
> because his character has a college education, or is a scientist on the
> side... No no... These things are put in as after thoughts... Never mind
> the fact that the character is street scum who ran with a gang all his
> life...
I think it is just one of your pet peeves because, really, I don't see anyone
surviving in the underworld who isn't of above average intelligence, or who
lacks some chutzpah (willpower). I play characters with a high willpower
because I see them as determined, serious individuals who won't lay down and
die.

> In the long run, balanced charcters play the best, I agree. But for a new,
> starting character? They end up dead REAL fast, cause they just can;t hack
> it in their field...
I think you have a strange idea of what is a balanced character, really.
Starting with low stats or skills in your area of specialty doesn't make
sense... people don't run the shadows if they can't shoot well, or drive well,
or what-have-you. They're past the point of being in the learning stages by
the time they are PCs. The joy of SR is that you can play that hard-bitten,
skilled assassin-for-hire from the start, instead of having to build the
character to that over months or years.

losthalo

From:	MCP <mikepaff@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Combat Pool
Date:	Sat, 30 Aug 1997 13:11:34 -0400

Message no. 36 At 12:38 PM 8/30/97 -0400, Bull wrote:
>OK, I accidentally trashed the mail that I'm replying to, so I din;t even
>know who wrote it, but they pointed out something about making their
>character balanced instead of "munchie".
>
>Well... There's a problem with that. Go ahead... make your "average"
>character. Even if you put 3's in each of your attributes, and you're
>human, that's still 24 points spent on attributes. That's the "B"
>priority, or 48 points of attributes! And you end up with a character
>that, without help, sucks in every catagory. Without massive cyberware
>enhancements, he won't make much of a starting sammy...
>
Actually, 3's in each stat is only 18 points (36 build points or Priority C
with 2 points to spare). There are only 6 stats that can be assigned points
directly, unless you have added new attributes under house rules.

>Now, I'm not advocating "Munching" out a character, or even Minmaxing...
>But what makes a charaxcter a sammy is higher physical attributes. Mages
>have a high Willpower and Charisma, and Deckers have a high Intelligence.
>Riggers need a decent Quickness and Intelligence, and some really good
>skills...
>
>Under the priority system, to "average" out the char at 4's requires
>Attributes to be taken at priority "A", thus leaving you with fewer skill
>points and money. And you can't be a metahuman. Plus, you still have, for
>a runner, fairly mediocre physical stats. And that also means you're
>spending 60 Build points under the point system! That doesn't leave you
>with much, and if you have to take a LOT of flaws just to eke out a few
>more points to make your character tougher, you're munching anyways.
>
Sorry, 4's in all stats can be handled under priority B (or with 48 build
points).

>I really like having a character with high stats, but it's just not
>realistic for a starting character. Your "physical" characters, the
>Sammy's, have to specialize to stay alive in their field.
>
Not necessarily. That high is body only needed if you put yourself in
the way of damage. Not every shadowrun MUST involve combat. The runners
that survive are the ones that do a job quietly or know when to duck/run
away.

>Why does their
>character have to have a high Intelligence? Reaction! of course! Not
>because his character has a college education, or is a scientist on the
>side... No no... These things are put in as after thoughts... Never mind
>the fact that the character is street scum who ran with a gang all his
>life...
>
Actually, intelligence and knowledge are not related. Intelligence in
shadowrun should (IMHO) be renamed Perception, since it is an indication
of how much you notice. IQ is more closely related to skills. So your
street scum could justifiably have a high Intelligence, since he's had to
survive by paying attention to what's going on around him. What he would
have trouble justifying would be his skills:
armed/unarmed combat, stealth, athletics - OK,
firearms - Maybe,
Gunnery, Demolitions, Knowledge skills - Unlikely

MCP

End of Line

From:	Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Combat Pool
Date:	Sat, 30 Aug 1997 14:19:37 -0400

Message no. 37 [SNIP]

<sigh>

Ignore my post... My whole argument ended up being based on the (flawed)
fact that 3x6 was 24. There's a reason I'm an English major... I don;t do
math so good somedays...

But I still stand behind the premise of my arguement. The Big Dumb Fighter
Stereotype exists for a reason...

<grin>

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

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From:	Stefan <casanova@***.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject:	Re: Combat Pool
Date:	Sat, 30 Aug 1997 20:22:28 +0000

Message no. 38 > [SNIP]
>
> <sigh>
>
> Ignore my post... My whole argument ended up being based on the (flawed)
> fact that 3x6 was 24. There's a reason I'm an English major... I don;t do
> math so good somedays...
>
> But I still stand behind the premise of my arguement. The Big Dumb Fighter
> Stereotype exists for a reason...

Sure, Big Dumb Fighters exists for a reason ... DYING! :) That is all
they are ever going to do ...

/Stefan

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From:	Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject:	Re: Combat Pool
Date:	Sat, 30 Aug 1997 13:01:26 -0600

Message no. 39 At 14:19 8/30/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Ignore my post... My whole argument ended up being based on the (flawed)
>fact that 3x6 was 24. There's a reason I'm an English major... I don;t do
>math so good somedays...

Gee Steve, I failed math 10 and still know that :P

-Adam

-
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ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
From The Jury's Bench: http://www.interware.it/shadowrun/channel

From:	Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Combat Pool
Date:	Sat, 30 Aug 1997 19:15:14 -0400

Message no. 40 At 01:01 PM 8/30/97 -0600, Adam J wrote these timeless words:
>At 14:19 8/30/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>Ignore my post... My whole argument ended up being based on the (flawed)
>>fact that 3x6 was 24. There's a reason I'm an English major... I don;t do
>>math so good somedays...
>
>Gee Steve, I failed math 10 and still know that :P
>
What can I say? It's been a long day...:]

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
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List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
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From:	"Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: Combat Pool
Date:	Sat, 30 Aug 1997 23:20:04 +0100

Message no. 41 In article <3.0.16.19970830123030.2537543e@*****.com>, Bull
<chaos@*****.COM> writes
>Personally, I just don;t see most Sammy/Ganger/Merc types starting out with
>a High Intelligence and Willpower. It's not where the character's
>strengths are.

Beg pardon? What's your typical special-forces mission? Walk a long way
across horribe terrain in terrible weather, arrive, sit for a while with
radio and binoculars reporting what the enemy's up to, walk back.

Above average Body (physical fitness and conditioning), high
Intelligence (these guys are very perceptive - have to be, or they get
killed) and sickening willpower (being able to get up and keep walking
almost no matter what)

Gangers, samurai, sure, but mercenaries with a professional background
(rather than 'Mongo shoot now?' types) could have maybe 3-4 Strength,
Quickness 4-5, Body 5, Intelligence 5, Willpower 5, Charisma... varies.
Probably 4 or even 5. Ever met a noncommissioned officer who wanted you
do to something you didn't want to do? They can be _very_ persuasive...

You could fit that into a B priority, but for an ex-SpecFor guy you're
looking at an A priority on attributes.

>Of course, tehre are always exceptions to this rule, but
>the character will suffer. And a character like a sammy, who will rely
>more on his strength and toughness rather than his wits, at least to start,
>a few points of strength and toughness can mean life or death.

What's better? An extra point of Body to try and survive the ambush, or
an extra die on your perception roll to spot it before you're in the
killing zone?

>Basically, your sammy will end up with stats like this, if he wants to be
>considered a decent sammy. (Keep in mind I'm using Humans as my examples,
>for simplicity.) And this is assuming 24 points (Priority B or almost half
>my build points, 48).
>
>B: 6
>Q: 5
>S: 5
>I: 3
>W: 3
>C: 2

Try :-

B: 4
Q: 5
S: 3
I: 5
W: 5
C: 2

High strength? Use a stun baton. High body? Wear armour. You need to be
able to spot threats (high perception), you need to be able to pick it
up and move it out when you're tired or wounded (high willpower).

>Bah... I guess this is just one of my pet peeves, in that everyone seems
>to think that no character is worth playing if they have a low willpower or
>intelligence. Why do they want a high willpower? The first answer is
>spell defense. Nice answer, but not in character, is it?

Because he's a tough-willed son-of-a-bitch - look at what he's made it
through already?

And yes, you do need high willpower in SR to survive. My first PC had
Willpower 3. He spent half his firefights unconscious or dying from the
first area-effect spell the enemy magician cast. Magic is powerful and
it does have a heavy effect on the game.

>Why does there
>character have to have a high Intelligence? Reaction! of course!

Nope: perception. Because someone who kills for a living, survives by
spotting the enemy first. That's the difference between sniping and an
all-out firefight (guess which one's safer)

>Not
>because his character has a college education, or is a scientist on the
>side...

Education is reflected in skills. Intelligence is perceptive ability.
Your typical mad professor might have Intelligence 2: he's the leading
expert in reflexive umbrology, but he can't remember where he left his
pen, nor does he notice four men with guns walking into his lab, nor
does he really notice whether his socks match or not.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

From:	Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Combat Pool
Date:	Sat, 30 Aug 1997 19:51:01 EDT

Message no. 42 On Sat, 30 Aug 1997 20:22:28 +0000 Stefan <casanova@***.PASSAGEN.SE>
writes:

>Sure, Big Dumb Fighters exists for a reason ... DYING! :) That is all
>they are ever going to do ...

Uh.. you forgot the *other* reason.... COVER for the Little Smart
Magicians.

~Tim

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Combat Pool
Date:	Mon, 1 Sep 1997 11:48:34 +0100

Message no. 43 |>Gee Steve, I failed math 10 and still know that :P
|>
|What can I say? It's been a long day...:]

Come come now Bull...
I had a VERY long weekend, but I don't think I would've made that mistake...
(And I really AM crap at maths)

Own up... What have you been on?
(And can I have some?)

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	niteGlo Messiah <levbar@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Combat Pool
Date:	Wed, 3 Sep 1997 09:41:03 -0400

Message no. 44 >Actually, intelligence and knowledge are not related. Intelligence in
>shadowrun should (IMHO) be renamed Perception, since it is an indication
>of how much you notice. IQ is more closely related to skills. So your
>street scum could justifiably have a high Intelligence, since he's had to
>survive by paying attention to what's going on around him.

I agree. Using the point system in the SR Companion, all characters posess
some rudimentary skills, up to a High School Education, for free. It is an
edge to have a Technical Education, or even better, a College education.
(I also prefer to send my mages through some sort of training)

Perhaps a person's knowledge should somehow relate to this.

uneducated: 1-2 dice to roll for knowledge under the skill web
High school: 2-3 dice
College: 3-4
Old age (??): 5-6

What do you think?

Metal Phoenix

From:	Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject:	Re: Combat Pool
Date:	Sun, 31 Aug 1997 15:04:00 GMT

Message no. 45 on 30.08.97 casanova@***.PASSAGEN.SE wrote:

c> > the Big Dumb Fighter Stereotype exists for a reason...
c>
c> Sure, Big Dumb Fighters exists for a reason ... DYING! :) That is all
c> they are ever going to do ...

And man, are they good at it! :)

BTW, it's really fun to play a veteran runner who is busy keeping a newbie
alive.

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK------------
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U++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+(+++) o? K?(-)
w---() O- M-- V- PS+ PE- Y+>++ PGP-
t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI? D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------

From:	George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Combat Pool
Date:	Wed, 3 Sep 1997 13:36:13 -0400

Message no. 46 In a message dated 97-08-30 12:39:19 EDT, Bull wrote:

> Well... There's a problem with that. Go ahead... make your "average"
> character. Even if you put 3's in each of your attributes, and you're
> human, that's still 24 points spent on attributes. That's the "B"
> priority, or 48 points of attributes! And you end up with a character
> that, without help, sucks in every catagory. Without massive cyberware
> enhancements, he won't make much of a starting sammy...

Ummm, Bull, I think you need to re-calibrate your calculator. 6 attributes @
3 points each is 18, so 36 points under Point system, and Priority D under
the Priority system(I know D is 17, we changed it to 18).

> Now, I'm not advocating "Munching" out a character, or even Minmaxing...
> But what makes a charaxcter a sammy is higher physical attributes. Mages
> have a high Willpower and Charisma, and Deckers have a high Intelligence.
> Riggers need a decent Quickness and Intelligence, and some really good
> skills...

Challenge for you. Sit down and build a really good character with resources
as Priority C or lower. Have players in your games start with that kind of
limitation and see how it goes.

> Under the priority system, to "average" out the char at 4's requires
> Attributes to be taken at priority "A", thus leaving you with fewer skill
> points and money. And you can;t be a metahuman.

Actually, 6 x 4 = 24, so Priority B, and even with Priority A as Attributes
you can be a Metahuman if you use the More Metas rule.

> Plus, you still have, for
> a runner, fairly mediocre physical stats. And that also means you're
> spending 60 Build points under the point system!

For a Runner, maybe, but I personally dislike going across the board with an
average stat. Everyone is different, to some extent. And it's 48 points under
the Build system; 60 points would be 5's across the board.

> That doesn;t leave you
> with much, and if you have to take a LOT of flaws just to eke out a few
> more points to make your character tougher, you're munching anyways.

No, munching depends entirely on the flaws that you're taking. A Severe
Plastic Allergy is gonna garnish you a lot of points, and you generally won't
be able to wear armor or use most guns.

> Personally, I just don;t see most Sammy/Ganger/Merc types starting out
with
> a High Intelligence and Willpower. It's not where the character's
> strengths are.

Actually, for Sams and Gangers I agree with you. But if that Merc has any
reasonable chance of surviving in his chosen profession, he'd better be both
smart and cool under fire.

> Of course, tehre are always exceptions to this rule, but
> the character will suffer. And a character like a sammy, who will rely
> more on his strength and toughness rather than his wits, at least to
start,
> a few points of strength and toughness can mean life or death.

True, but they have more points than you're attributing them(no pun
intended).

> Starting characters are just that... Starting. Keep in mind that your
> average citizen has stats of all 2's and 3's, occasionally one of those
> stats will be higher, but it's rare.

To give you an idea, most of the people I'm friends with have either a 4 or
5 Intelligence - 140 to 175 IQ range. (Intelligence 6 is Einstien, keep it in
mind the next time a character with that level Intelligence does something
dumb.) Most football players probably fall into the 4 or 5 category for Body,
Quickness and Strength depending on the position they play. Average should be
in the 2-4 range, not just 3.

<Snip ranting...>

> In the long run, balanced charcters play the best, I agree. But for a
new,
> starting character? They end up dead REAL fast, cause they just can;t
hack
> it in their field...

Which could well mean that they chose the wrong field. Or that they should
start using their brainpower for something other than picking their nose and
increasing their reaction. I agree that balanced-attribute PC's are a bad
idea, but I don't agree with the why of it. Anyone can hack it in any field.
Whether they're good at it is another story. And I have yet to see anyone who
can be defined as "normal". Either they're slightly faster, tougher,
stronger, more attractive, more intelligent, or more disciplined than most of
their peers, and sometimes they're more than one of those. But usually
they're lacking elsewhere. Your typical computer geek is exceptionally bright
and absolutely devoid of social graces. Characters shouldn't be balanced,
simply because humans aren't.

Wolfstar

From:	Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Combat Pool)
Date:	Wed, 3 Sep 1997 22:36:41 EDT

Message no. 47 On Wed, 3 Sep 1997 20:26:42 +0000 Stefan <casanova@***.PASSAGEN.SE>
writes:
>Intelligence or perception ... whatever ... I have always seen it as
>being perception anyway since you rarely if ever get to roll int
>checks to come up with smart ideas ... if you don't do it your
>character don't do it either .. unless the runners are hopelessly
>stuck then I usually give them a chanse to better themself by rolling
>INT ... otherwise that is just used for Perception ... What else is
>it really used for ?

On a side note... what would you do if, theoretically, the character is
smarter than the player?

One of my group members was telling me a story about a Vamp. game he
played in a while back where his character had an Intelligence of 5 and
was known for asking the GM "Well at least let me *roll* for it... I
can't think of anything, but since he's way the hell smarter than I am,
*he's* bound to."

I mean it's fairly easy to play someone who is less intelligent than you
(or rather, you can at least filter what you come up with as opposed to
what the PC does) but it's a pretty tall order to do the opposite...
wouldn't you say?

~Tim

From:	"Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Combat Pool)
Date:	Thu, 4 Sep 1997 00:11:58 -0500

Message no. 48 You wrote:
> On a side note... what would you do if, theoretically, the character is
> smarter than the player?

> I mean it's fairly easy to play someone who is less intelligent than you
> (or rather, you can at least filter what you come up with as opposed to
> what the PC does) but it's a pretty tall order to do the opposite...
> wouldn't you say?

Well, how about the GM playing along, and occasionally giving that player some
hints or sudden realizations, play it like perception rolls. :) "You realize
that all that's required is a little algebra to figure out the puzzle, liek
this-"

What's worse is players without the charisma and social skills to play their
characters. That's a lot harder, if you really want people to play their
characters and not just "I try to seduce X person."

losthalo

From:	Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Combat Pool)
Date:	Wed, 3 Sep 1997 22:36:41 EDT

Message no. 49 On Wed, 3 Sep 1997 13:34:59 +0000 Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET> writes:

[snip Webster's definition]

>To put this in game terms, Perception would be spotting the man on
>the roof. Intelligence would be discerning that the man is a sniper,
>is using X weapon, and has it trained to direction Y. Of course, the
>latter information is obtained via ones skills. If the observer had
>no skill in Firearms, or Tactics, the observer would not be able to
>discern the nature of the man on the roof. He would just know he was
>there.

>Another example; someone could notice a fluid leaking from a car.
>(Perception). A skilled observer would see that as transmission
>fluid. (Intelligence, using Car or Car B/R, perhaps).
>
>See the difference?
>
>I have been saying it all along, and I will say it again. Perception
>and Intelligence are not the same.

However you just gave an illustration of EXACTLY how SR uses the
attribute "Intelligence" versus skills. There is some comment in a
section talking about attributes (I don't have the book on me) that
mentions that the true indicator of 'intelligence' comes from skill
levels, and not from the attribute. If you want to get right down to it,
you could see 'Intelligence' as something as basic as processing power
and speed, while skills provide the actual working knowledge.

Take two examples: 1) low Int. and high skills - this would be your
archtypical absent minded scientist.. give him a problem in his field and
he'll solve it before you finish the question, just don't rely on him to
do things like remember where his car-keys are or wear a pair of matching
socks, etc. 2) high Int., low skills - here is your typical guy/gal
that's just "smart".. they are quick to learn, observant, a good helping
of common sence, etc.. and everything, they just don't have a lot of
practical skill/knowledge in any one particular area.

And to have high ratings in BOTH gives you someone who's got the best of
both worlds having applied their full potential.

~Tim (it's probably more of a semantic problem than anything else.. then
again, most of the attribute's fall into that catagory anyway).

From:	Mike Sapp <cynner29@******.NET>
Subject:	Re: Combat Pool)
Date:	Thu, 4 Sep 1997 01:13:09 -0400

Message no. 50 At 12:11 AM 9/4/97 -0500, you wrote:
>You wrote:
>> On a side note... what would you do if, theoretically, the character is
>> smarter than the player?
>
>> I mean it's fairly easy to play someone who is less intelligent than you
>> (or rather, you can at least filter what you come up with as opposed to
>> what the PC does) but it's a pretty tall order to do the opposite...
>> wouldn't you say?
>
>Well, how about the GM playing along, and occasionally giving that player
some
>hints or sudden realizations, play it like perception rolls. :) "You realize
>that all that's required is a little algebra to figure out the puzzle, liek
>this-"
>
>What's worse is players without the charisma and social skills to play their
>characters. That's a lot harder, if you really want people to play their
>characters and not just "I try to seduce X person."
>

It sounds like the problem isn't player attributes versus character
attributes but rather a lack of imagination on the part of the player. If
the player continues to do things that go directly against the attributes
of his/her character then talk to the player about how they see the
character and suggest some ways of playing the character more
intelligently. I have found that when a player does something monumentally
stupid it's because they don't understand one part or another of your
world. I generally play with high law enforcement precense and at times
PC's use real names on unsecure lines, the first time I remind them then
NSA special ops show up or Lone Star increases patrols suddenly in thier
nieghborhood.
Don't forget though that this is a game in which people get to take on the
roles of characters above and beyond thier own skills and abilities.
Mistakes happen. As far as intelligence goes, keep in mind that just
because someone is smart it doesn't require them to come up with Wild E.
Coyote blueprints everytime they plan something. Simpler is often the best
route, since it gives the GM fewer options in blowing it out of the water.
I remember a run against a secure apartment complex (wetworks), the PC's
couldn't bribe thier way in, blast thier way in, sneak in and I forget all
the other complicated crap they tried, then someone knocked over a pizza
delivery boy and they got to walk in. I deliver to secure complexes all the
time and I just get a cursory glance, something about that gimpy uniform
puts people off guard.
If all else fails give'em the 'TOME', i.e. the largest phone book you can
pinch. For some odd reason if you put a phone book in the hands of a group
of players they suddenly get inspired.
Disclaimer: This only works for modern to futuristic settings, Fantasy
players generally wind up ordering pizza.

Cynner -
Let's not and say we did.
Better still, let's do it and deny the hell out of it.
-

Message no. 51 > >Intelligence or perception ... whatever ... I have always seen it as
> >being perception anyway since you rarely if ever get to roll int
> >checks to come up with smart ideas ... if you don't do it your
> >character don't do it either .. unless the runners are hopelessly
> >stuck then I usually give them a chanse to better themself by rolling
> >INT ... otherwise that is just used for Perception ... What else is
> >it really used for ?
>
> On a side note... what would you do if, theoretically, the character is
> smarter than the player?

I only play with members of MENSA :)

> One of my group members was telling me a story about a Vamp. game he
> played in a while back where his character had an Intelligence of 5 and
> was known for asking the GM "Well at least let me *roll* for it... I
> can't think of anything, but since he's way the hell smarter than I am,
> *he's* bound to."

> I mean it's fairly easy to play someone who is less intelligent than you
> (or rather, you can at least filter what you come up with as opposed to
> what the PC does) but it's a pretty tall order to do the opposite...
> wouldn't you say?

That is all very true and real ... and in cases where the runnners
are very stuck I allow them to roll int rolls to get "more"
information ... but I never ever just spill my guts to them ... they
have to work there grey matter ...

/Stefan

------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Frag you and the datastream you came on!" - Sinjin the decker
------------------------------------------------------------------------
... E-Mail .............................. casanova@***.passagen.se ...
... HomePage .................... http://hem.passagen.se/casanova/ ...
... ICQ .................................................. 1403212 ...
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 52 Due to the way that combat pool is calculated, the combat oriented
characters (namely Sammys and the like) take a serious hit in points of
Combat Pool.

>Now, your average Sammy type character, who's main strength is his combat
>ability, will generall have high physical stats (base 5's, at least),
>while
>his mental stats will be considerably lower (Normally base 3's, sometimes
>2's and 1's for Orks and TRolls).

Do what deckers and riggers do-- make his pool equal to reaction
(dumb idea?? maybe. what do you think?)

Characters with low reactions can use the standard rules.

Message no. 53 Tobias Berghoff wrote:
>You just don't know some of the players I do. What would you think about
a
>girl, that's (sorry) fat, ugly and diskliked by most people in RL, who
>always plays tall, slim (196cm, 40kg, god dammit!) elfs that are loved
by
>everybody (except the other players)? Thought so.

.. or maybe a 5'6", 110 lb (rail thin), very nearsighted, passive, quiet,
bookwormy, and non-physical guy who plays flamboyant, muscle-bound,
street-tough orks with an attitude?

It's a game of imagination... who said you had to play YOURSELF?!?
Am I wrong or isn't it half the fun to be able to be something that
you're NOT in RL..

~Tim (see above description)

Message no. 54 on 22.09.97 z-i-m@****.COM wrote:

zim> Tobias Berghoff wrote:
zim> >You just don't know some of the players I do. What would you think about
zim> a
zim> >girl, that's (sorry) fat, ugly and diskliked by most people in RL, who
zim> >always plays tall, slim (196cm, 40kg, god dammit!) elfs that are loved
zim> by
zim> >everybody (except the other players)? Thought so.
zim>
zim> .. or maybe a 5'6", 110 lb (rail thin), very nearsighted, passive, quiet,
zim> bookwormy, and non-physical guy who plays flamboyant, muscle-bound,
zim> street-tough orks with an attitude?
zim>
zim> It's a game of imagination... who said you had to play YOURSELF?!?
zim> Am I wrong or isn't it half the fun to be able to be something that
zim> you're NOT in RL..

It is. It's just that some people kinda see roleplaying as a chance to be
a great, cool, whatever person, which isn't bad, as long as it is not used
for...[looking for the right word]...repression (don't know if that's the
right word) of your own RL problems. My girlfriend left me, so I play a
char who's so attractive that every woman falls in love with him? I don't
think so. I just failed my latin test, so I play a char with latin(12)?
Unlikely...
I think you call that phenomenon 'escapism'....

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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Message no. 55 At 11:48 AM 9/23/97 GMT, Tobias Berghoff wrote:
# It is. It's just that some people kinda see roleplaying as a chance to be
# a great, cool, whatever person, which isn't bad, as long as it is not used
# for...[looking for the right word]...repression (don't know if that's the
# right word) of your own RL problems. My girlfriend left me, so I play a
# char who's so attractive that every woman falls in love with him? I don't
# think so. I just failed my latin test, so I play a char with latin(12)?
# Unlikely...
# I think you call that phenomenon 'escapism'....

role playing i just that. You can be what you want to be, not what you are.
if someone that's overweight that wants to play a think adorable character,
let them.

It's just a damn game, and you're not their phsychiatrist

Role playing is ALL ABOUT escapism!
--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/

Message no. 56 on 23.09.97 justin@******.NET wrote:

j> # I think you call that phenomenon 'escapism'....
j>
j> role playing i just that. You can be what you want to be, not what you
j> are. if someone that's overweight that wants to play a think adorable
j> character, let them.
j>
j> It's just a damn game, and you're not their phsychiatrist

Yup. Nope. I actually don't care. If she replaces reality with
roleplaying, I won't stop her. What I was talking about was people taking
stuff to personally. If you get depressed, start to cry or whatever, just
because your char gets killed, there's something wrong, don't you think?
(As you said: It's just a damn game! You don't commit suicide after losing
at poker! At least I don't. I lose to often.)

j>
j> Role playing is ALL ABOUT escapism!

Am I stupid! All the time I thought it was about having fun. Really
stupid...

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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Message no. 57 At 02:54 PM 9/24/97 GMT, you wrote:
>on 23.09.97 justin@******.NET wrote:
>
>j> # I think you call that phenomenon 'escapism'....
>j>
>j> role playing i just that. You can be what you want to be, not what you
>j> are. if someone that's overweight that wants to play a think adorable
>j> character, let them.
>j>
>j> It's just a damn game, and you're not their phsychiatrist
>
>Yup. Nope. I actually don't care. If she replaces reality with
>roleplaying, I won't stop her. What I was talking about was people taking
>stuff to personally. If you get depressed, start to cry or whatever, just
>because your char gets killed, there's something wrong, don't you think?
>(As you said: It's just a damn game! You don't commit suicide after losing
>at poker! At least I don't. I lose to often.)

My suggestion: Do what we do, every now and then instead of having a serious
'let's blow the drek out of some facility and steal something and get paid
big bucks for it' night, we have a more monty python humor type night.

In a post I just sent, I mentioned three character we had one night: A
"Burned out PhysAd" (Me), a mage (actually we dunno what the heck she is,
neither does she), and a cybermancied sammie who's sold his soul to a corp
for some really black 'ware. We all took amnesia (the sammie and myself
just the -2 option, the mage the -5), combat monster, vindictive, compulsive,
flashbacks, and a couple of other really nasty 'farked in the head' kind of
things.

Well, we get a new player, so he sits down and makes a char, and gives this
char a Magical Talent: Shapechange merit. (That's a BS combo imho. But folks
I am NO rules lawyer, I have no idea what ALL of the rules are, I just play.)
Anyways, this guy decides to get cute, so he shapeshifts into a bird and
flies into the garage of the mystery mage, up to the rafters. Well, the
girl playing the mage (I'll warn you, she's not too bright/subtle some times)
decides to pull out a freakin' barret (sp?) sniper rifle and starts taking
shots at the bird. (She's in her own garage, remember. Bye bye ceiling and
windows.) Well, the bird's 'somehow' dodging like crazy, until the only
normal-headed character in the game (a news reporter type) pulls out a stun
gun and takes a shot. The bird dodge's the stun, but takes a barret hit
right dead center. Splat, unconcious dying character poofs into existance
50 feet above the ground. Sammie goes to catch, takes a BIG impact hit, and
drops the splattered pile o' player meat (aka the newbie). I run over to
try and biotech. The mage flashbacks, and starts performing biotech on
the newbie herself. (We're all like, 'She has biotech?') The sammie flips
out and thinks he's in a war zone and those damned gooks just shot up his
best friend. Calls out all radio frequencies (I said all heh) asking for
fire support, artillery, a medvac team, etc. I flip out and think that the
newbie is my girlfriend, who I just killed, so I'm sitting there bawling
my brains out. Needless to say, the poor news reporter is sitting in the
corner going 'what the hell?'.

Man it was a great night. :) We only got like 3-4 karma, but we were
busting a gut. Right at the end we had to do some really fast thinking
and fast-talking cuz Lone Star, Doc Wagon, and the local cops all arrived
at the same time, wanting some serious explanations.

>j>
>j> Role playing is ALL ABOUT escapism!
>
>Am I stupid! All the time I thought it was about having fun. Really
>stupid...

Must have failed your intelligence check. ;)

>Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

- Cheetah the Burned Out PhysAd

Message no. 58 It has been Stated:

>Keep in mind, that an average troll has intelligence 1. They don't out-
>think most humans (they wouldn't out-think Forrest Gump, for that
matter).
>Of course, if you create a smart troll, most people will underestimate
>you, which is one hell of an advantage.

Actually the Intelligence Stat is not a measure of how smart your
character is but the overall quickness of the mind and ability to
percieve the surrondings. Skills represent how smart you are.

This can be found in the BBB, page 42.

-El Bandit

Http://members.aol.com/elbandit/index.html

Message no. 59 Okay, this may be a previously ranted thread, if so, point me to the
dates in the logs.

Does anyone understand how Combat pool dodge works? I understand the
rules involved (I believe), but the logic escapes me.

Someone shoots a panther Cannon at me, (that's what....22D? I can
never remember anything but 18D4 :) ) and scores two successes.

Unarmored, I need to roll 3 22's on Combat Pool to dodge.

Armored (5/3), I need to roll 3 17's CP to dodge.

Okay, Armor helps me dodge? Well, maybe it increases my chances of a
non-damaging shot. I can swallow that.

Now if my opponent is shooting with an SMG (burst fire) (11S), and
gets 2 successes, I only need to roll 3 11's to dodge (3 6's if
armored)

So the SMG firing three shots is easier to dodge than the Panther
Cannon? On what priniciple? Muzzle velocity?

I guess it just doesn't make sense.

-=SwiftOne=-

Message no. 60 SwiftOne Queried:

>Does anyone understand how Combat pool dodge works? I understand the
>rules involved (I believe), but the logic escapes me.

Sure, combat pool is used to AVOID taking damage before rolling your
body to see how much -if any- damage your going to take.

>Someone shoots a panther Cannon at me, (that's what....22D? I can
>never remember anything but 18D4 :) ) and scores two successes.
>
>Unarmored, I need to roll 3 22's on Combat Pool to dodge.

You roll three 22's and you've dodged behind that lamp post and
all the bullets missed you.

>Armored (5/3), I need to roll 3 17's CP to dodge.

One of the bullets grazed your boney hoop, using armor and body
to see how much damage you'll take.

>I guess it just doesn't make sense.

Most people for get to seperate combat pool from their body when
rolling to avoid damage. Heck, we aren't and Mike will nail us
on it someday...

Jill

Thanks Fro, we're back!

Message no. 61 You wrote:
> So the SMG firing three shots is easier to dodge than the Panther
> Cannon? On what priniciple? Muzzle velocity?

> I guess it just doesn't make sense.
It's an ABSTRACT system. Please think about that. It not only takes into
account the three-round burst (which is actually, theoretically, a very tight
burst if done correctly) and the _explosive_ warhead of the Panther assault
cannon, whose round is also much larger than the little 9mm gnats that Ingram
is firing. The panther might also have a higher muzzle velocity, and your
armor is paper as far as that cannon is concerned, so deflecting it is not an
option (whereas your little 9mm friends could easily be stopped all three by
your armor, if you get turned to the proper angle). The Panther round touches
you, BOOM.

losthalo, putting specifics to a nice abstract system

Message no. 62 Brett Borger wrote:
|
| Does anyone understand how Combat pool dodge works? I understand the
| rules involved (I believe), but the logic escapes me.
|
| Someone shoots a panther Cannon at me, (that's what....22D? I can
| never remember anything but 18D4 :) ) and scores two successes.
|
| Unarmored, I need to roll 3 22's on Combat Pool to dodge.
|
| Armored (5/3), I need to roll 3 17's CP to dodge.
|
| Okay, Armor helps me dodge? Well, maybe it increases my chances of a
| non-damaging shot. I can swallow that.

Combat Pool not only simulates dodging, but maximizing armor and
cover. That's why the TN modifier from your armor is applied to the
combat pool dice. Remember that intelligence(perception) factors
into combat pool. So you see the guy aiming the PAC at you.
Quickness also factors in. You try to twist out of the way. So when
you get shot you're twisting out of the way and angling your body
armor to deflect the shot, instead of taking it straight on.

| Now if my opponent is shooting with an SMG (burst fire) (11S), and
| gets 2 successes, I only need to roll 3 11's to dodge (3 6's if
| armored)
|
| So the SMG firing three shots is easier to dodge than the Panther
| Cannon? On what priniciple? Muzzle velocity?

Again, it's not just dodging. Your combat pool helps you avoid *and*
resist damage. In the case of the SMG the armor is really helping
out. You've got good protection and you're dodging. The fact that
the power of the SMG has been increased to 11 reflects the increased
difficulty of dodging multiple rounds. The power of a PAC is so high
that body armor doesn't make much difference either way (and neither
does dodging).

| I guess it just doesn't make sense.

You've got to approach SR's combat system from an abstract
representative point of view. A Deadly wound could mean anything
from a hole in the chest to a limb blown off, to a shot through the
eye from a .22.

Hope that helped :)

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."

Message no. 63 Wendy Wanders, Subject 117 wrote:
|
| losthalo, putting specifics to a nice abstract system

LOL

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."

Message no. 64 On Tue, 30 Sep 1997 16:36:46 EST Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU> writes:

[snip Combat Pool examples and confusion]

>I guess it just doesn't make sense.

Two words: Armor Class.

~Tim

Message no. 65 Mike and Jill Johnson said on 15:49/30 Sep 97...

Long time no see!

> Most people for get to seperate combat pool from their body when
> rolling to avoid damage. Heck, we aren't and Mike will nail us
> on it someday...

I want players to roll two colors dice, one for the skill/attribute/
whatever and one for pool dice. This works wonderfully, as soon as I get
it through the players' skulls that the white dice are for skills etc. and
the green dice are only to be used for dice pools... :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Zo buurman, ik hier?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 66 Brett Borger said on 16:36/30 Sep 97...

> Someone shoots a panther Cannon at me, (that's what....22D? I can
> never remember anything but 18D4 :) ) and scores two successes.

18D for a generic assault cannon, but I'll go with the 22s as it makes
the point just as clear.

> Unarmored, I need to roll 3 22's on Combat Pool to dodge.

Check.

> Armored (5/3), I need to roll 3 17's CP to dodge.

Check. (Unless, of course, you fire ammo that goes against Impact for some
reason; then you'd have to get 19s.)

> Now if my opponent is shooting with an SMG (burst fire) (11S), and
> gets 2 successes, I only need to roll 3 11's to dodge (3 6's if
> armored)

Right again.

> So the SMG firing three shots is easier to dodge than the Panther
> Cannon? On what priniciple? Muzzle velocity?

Game rules. It's easier to set each roll against the same TN than say
"Those green dice are rolled against X, the white ones against Y. Count
your successes." Due to the fact that you're dodging the gun and not the
bullets, it shouldn't be easier to dodge one type of weapon than another,
and for that reason it's probably a good idea -- if you view Combat Pool
as allowing you to evade bullets -- to make CP dice roll against a TN 4
plus wound mods, while Body dice roll against the Power Level of the
weapon without wound modifiers.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Zo buurman, ik hier?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 67 > | I guess it just doesn't make sense.
>
> You've got to approach SR's combat system from an abstract
> representative point of view. A Deadly wound could mean anything
> from a hole in the chest to a limb blown off, to a shot through the
> eye from a .22.
>
> Hope that helped :)
>
Sadly, not much. Like I said, I understand most of the basis, I just
have troubles accepting that it is so much easier for an unarmored
target to dodge an SMG (multiple rounds or not) than to dodge a PAC.

(Bad examples, I know, since neither is "easy" to dodge, but you get
my point)

-=SwiftOne=-
Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie

Message no. 68 Brett Borger wrote:
|
| > | I guess it just doesn't make sense.
| >
| > You've got to approach SR's combat system from an abstract
| > representative point of view. A Deadly wound could mean anything
| > from a hole in the chest to a limb blown off, to a shot through the
| > eye from a .22.
| >
| > Hope that helped :)
|
| Sadly, not much. Like I said, I understand most of the basis, I just
| have troubles accepting that it is so much easier for an unarmored
| target to dodge an SMG (multiple rounds or not) than to dodge a PAC.
|
| (Bad examples, I know, since neither is "easy" to dodge, but you get
| my point)

Ah. The key word is "dodge". Replace it with the word "avoid".
Combat pool helps a PC to avoid damage (by dodging, maximizing armor,
etc). It is easier to avoid damage from an SMG burst than it is to
avoid damage from a PAC round.

Here's a quick idea you might like. The number of successes from the
combat pool must exceed (or is it equal?) the number of successes
rolled by the attacker *and* the number of extra rounds fired. So,
if a PC is attacked by a 3 round burst he must roll a number of
Combat Pool successes greater than the successes of the attacker + 2
to avoid the attack. If the attack isn't avoided resist damage
normally.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."

Message no. 69 on 25.09.97 el_bandit@****.COM wrote:

eb> >Keep in mind, that an average troll has intelligence 1. They don't out-
eb> >think most humans (they wouldn't out-think Forrest Gump, for that
eb> matter).
eb> >Of course, if you create a smart troll, most people will underestimate
eb> >you, which is one hell of an advantage.
eb>
eb> Actually the Intelligence Stat is not a measure of how smart your
eb> character is but the overall quickness of the mind and ability to
eb> percieve the surrondings. Skills represent how smart you are.

Nope! Intelligence is brainpower. Skills is knowledge. You can learn a lot
of things without being that smart. It just takes longer.

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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Message no. 70 on 25.09.97 irvine@***.PURDUE.EDU wrote:

i> >j> It's just a damn game, and you're not their phsychiatrist
i> >
i> >Yup. Nope. I actually don't care. If she replaces reality with
i> >roleplaying, I won't stop her. What I was talking about was people taking
i> >stuff to personally. If you get depressed, start to cry or whatever, just
i> >because your char gets killed, there's something wrong, don't you think?
i> >(As you said: It's just a damn game! You don't commit suicide after losing
i> >at poker! At least I don't. I lose to often.)
i>
i> My suggestion: Do what we do, every now and then instead of having a
i> serious 'let's blow the drek out of some facility and steal something and
i> get paid big bucks for it' night, we have a more monty python humor type
i> night.

Oh, when things get to boring, we start a chaos-session. This usually
includes 200+ civillian deaths, at least 25 explosions and things that
would never work to do without rolling dice.

i> In a post I just sent,

Which also was a reply to me...:)

i> I mentioned three character we had one night: A
i> "Burned out PhysAd" (Me), a mage (actually we dunno what the heck she is,
i> neither does she), and a cybermancied sammie who's sold his soul to a corp
i> for some really black 'ware. We all took amnesia (the sammie and myself
i> just the -2 option, the mage the -5), combat monster, vindictive,
i> compulsive, flashbacks, and a couple of other really nasty 'farked in the
i> head' kind of things.

Actually, I don't like that idea. It makes everything much to freaked out.
You have the most inprobable team of all, with all psychotic killers.
Nah...

[snipped story]
Yeah.

i> Man it was a great night. :) We only got like 3-4 karma, but we were
i> busting a gut. Right at the end we had to do some really fast thinking
i> and fast-talking cuz Lone Star, Doc Wagon, and the local cops all arrived
i> at the same time, wanting some serious explanations.

O.K., That's fun for some time, though it'll drive the GM mad. We once had
a diceless game when some of us where waiting for a concert and at the end
(shortly before the concert begun) one of the PCs get half of his butt
shot of (and I mean half of his butt!). It *was* funny, but 5 minutes
later, all the PCs would have bleeded to death....

i> >j> Role playing is ALL ABOUT escapism!
i> >
i> >Am I stupid! All the time I thought it was about having fun. Really
i> >stupid...
i>
i> Must have failed your intelligence check. ;)

I BUY A REROLL!!!!! :)

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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Message no. 71 Tobias Berghoff wrote:
|
| on 25.09.97 el_bandit@****.COM wrote:
|
| eb> Actually the Intelligence Stat is not a measure of how smart your
| eb> character is but the overall quickness of the mind and ability to
| eb> percieve the surrondings. Skills represent how smart you are.
|
| Nope! Intelligence is brainpower. Skills is knowledge. You can learn a lot
| of things without being that smart. It just takes longer.

You just agreed with El Bandit :)

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."

Message no. 72 Tobias Berghoff wrote:
>
> on 25.09.97 el_bandit@****.COM wrote:
>
> eb> >Keep in mind, that an average troll has intelligence 1. They don't out-
> eb> >think most humans (they wouldn't out-think Forrest Gump, for that
> eb> matter).
> eb> >Of course, if you create a smart troll, most people will underestimate
> eb> >you, which is one hell of an advantage.
> eb>
> eb> Actually the Intelligence Stat is not a measure of how smart your
> eb> character is but the overall quickness of the mind and ability to
> eb> percieve the surrondings. Skills represent how smart you are.
>
> Nope! Intelligence is brainpower. Skills is knowledge. You can learn a lot
> of things without being that smart. It just takes longer.

No Actually the intelligence of a character depends on the player.
skills like you said is knowledge and the int stats should be perceptive
abilities. As for planning and common sense ans other intelligence
related activities....... thats the player....

Platinum

Message no. 73 on 06.10.97 Platinum@*****.CA wrote:

P> > eb> Actually the Intelligence Stat is not a measure of how smart your
P> > eb> character is but the overall quickness of the mind and ability to
P> > eb> percieve the surrondings. Skills represent how smart you are.
P> >
P> > Nope! Intelligence is brainpower. Skills is knowledge. You can learn a
P> > lot of things without being that smart. It just takes longer.
P>
P> No Actually the intelligence of a character depends on the player.

Well, that's always the case. If the char's got tactics 21 and the
player's got no clue, so will the char. But OTOH, I know really
intelligent folks, who play really stupid chars. And those chars *are*
stupid.

P> skills like you said is knowledge and the int stats should be perceptive
P> abilities. As for planning and common sense ans other intelligence
P> related activities....... thats the player....

Sure, the player can't play someone who's smarter than s/he is, but s/he
can play someone less intelligent. I wouldn't allow an intel(1) PC to come
up with the plans all the time.

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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Message no. 74 on 05.10.97 dbuehrer@****.ORG wrote:

| eb>> Actually the Intelligence Stat is not a measure of how smart your
| eb>> character is but the overall quickness of the mind and ability to
| eb>> percieve the surrondings. Skills represent how smart you are.
d> |
d> | Nope! Intelligence is brainpower. Skills is knowledge. You can learn a
d> lot | of things without being that smart. It just takes longer.
d>
d> You just agreed with El Bandit :)

Nope. Smart=lots of brainpower. So.....

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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Message no. 75 On Wed, 8 Oct 1997 14:16:00 GMT Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
writes:

>Well, that's always the case. If the char's got tactics 21 and the
>player's got no clue, so will the char. [...]

Now, are you saying that a stupid player playing a character with a
tactics of 21 can only funtion at the PLAYER'S level of tactical skill?

If you are, then I have to disagree with that... if the character is a
wiz at tactics, then the character SHOULD be a wiz at tactics regardless
of the player's knowledge. While it is certainly easier for a 'smart'
person to play a stupid character, that doesn't negate the fact of the
character's abilities in the opposite situation.

>P> skills like you said is knowledge and the int stats should be
perceptive
>P> abilities. As for planning and common sense ans other intelligence
>P> related activities....... thats the player....

>Sure, the player can't play someone who's smarter than s/he is, but s/he
>can play someone less intelligent. I wouldn't allow an intel(1) PC to
>comeup with the plans all the time.

Sure enough, but you'd also have to allow for the fact that the high
skill/intelligence character WILL come up with things that the player
wouldn't. If not then, you just restrict players to having characters
that can only have abilities/experiences/skills equal to an lower than
their own current, RL knowledge.

~Tim

Message no. 76 on 08.10.97 z-i-m@****.COM wrote:

zim> >Well, that's always the case. If the char's got tactics 21 and the
zim> >player's got no clue, so will the char. [...]
zim>
zim> Now, are you saying that a stupid player playing a character with a
zim> tactics of 21 can only funtion at the PLAYER'S level of tactical skill?
zim>
zim> If you are, then I have to disagree with that... if the character is a
zim> wiz at tactics, then the character SHOULD be a wiz at tactics regardless
zim> of the player's knowledge. While it is certainly easier for a 'smart'
zim> person to play a stupid character, that doesn't negate the fact of the
zim> character's abilities in the opposite situation.

Sure. But what am I (as a GM) supposed to do? Tell him tactics all the
time? If I did that (and a high tactics-rating as a hugh impact on a
char's actions) I would practically play his char. I cannot do that and I
do not want to do that. If you can't play a char, don't write him. This is
no problem with non-knowledge skills. In my life, I've fired 3 different
guns (and I was 13 back then), still I really good in playing Sammy, Mercs
and stuff like that (that's what I've been told, at least). *I* wouldn't
hit a driving cars left front tire without really looking at it, my (old)
char can. No problem. But I have no knowledge of African myths, so I don't
play someone who has, as I couldn't. Of course, I can get some books and
learn.

zim> >P> skills like you said is knowledge and the int stats should be
zim> perceptive
zim> >P> abilities. As for planning and common sense ans other intelligence
zim> >P> related activities....... thats the player....
zim>
zim> >Sure, the player can't play someone who's smarter than s/he is, but s/he
zim> >can play someone less intelligent. I wouldn't allow an intel(1) PC to
zim> >comeup with the plans all the time.
zim>
zim> Sure enough, but you'd also have to allow for the fact that the high
zim> skill/intelligence character WILL come up with things that the player
zim> wouldn't. If not then, you just restrict players to having characters
zim> that can only have abilities/experiences/skills equal to an lower than
zim> their own current, RL knowledge.

This is a problem. All the campaigns I've played in or that I have GMed
included some heavy brain-work. I can't tell the player how to solve the
game, without ruining his, mine and all the other players fun. All this
would mean that *I* say what the char would do. Not good, really bad,
actually.

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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Message no. 77 <RE: Dumb Player with Tactical Genius Character>

> Sure. But what am I (as a GM) supposed to do? Tell him tactics all
> the time? If I did that (and a high tactics-rating as a hugh impact

I had a player try this. Basically it came down to this: Faced with
a tactical decision, he could roll, and ask me what SOP was. I'd
tell him. Combined with a perception test, he could find various
weak point and strengths in their defenses.

Actually USING this knowledge was up to the player.

Basically, his skill allowed him to KNOW that MCT tends to bind a
high force fire elemental to the place and give command to the head
sec team. he KNEW that this elemental was often ordered to intercept
spells targeting the sec team. He KNEW that this was pretty much the
only magical security a non zero-zero MCT site would _normally_ have.

He had to FIGURE OUT that if he wanted his mage to be any good, he
better deal with the elemental, or at least with the orders it got.

The skill gave him knowledge. Decisions were up to him.

(Note: All references to corps and their procedures refers to my
world only)

-=SwiftOne=-

Message no. 78 =================================================================
Brett Borger

Does anyone understand how Combat pool dodge works? I understand the
rules involved (I believe), but the logic escapes me.
Someone shoots a panther Cannon at me, (that's what....22D? I can
never remember anything but 18D4 :) ) and scores two successes.
Unarmored, I need to roll 3 22's on Combat Pool to dodge.
Armored (5/3), I need to roll 3 17's CP to dodge.
Okay, Armor helps me dodge? Well, maybe it increases my chances of a
non-damaging shot. I can swallow that.
Now if my opponent is shooting with an SMG (burst fire) (11S), and
gets 2 successes, I only need to roll 3 11's to dodge (3 6's if
armored)
So the SMG firing three shots is easier to dodge than the Panther
Cannon? On what priniciple? Muzzle velocity?
I guess it just doesn't make sense.
====================================================================

If it works for you, use it. It didn't work for us (combat pool 12 +
heavy armor = nearly invulnerable, while a physad in an armor vest can't
dodge drek), so we brewed up another rule for the "houseFAQ" :

C9: Can attacks be "dodged"? If so, what is the target number for
dodging? What dice are rolled? Are dodging and resisting damage seperate
tests (for the purpose of Karma Pool and threat use)? How do Vehicles
dodge ranged attacks?

Vanilla: The dodge test is part of the ranged combat damage resistance
test. If the defender against a ranged attack rolls more sucesses with
combat pool dice alone vs a TN of the attacks power minus his armor, the
attack is a complete miss.

House: We don't feel the target number for dodging should be the same as
for soaking damage. In effect, we consider dodging and soaking to be
different parts of one test, handled in the following manner.
When a person is attacked by ranged combat, they may choose to allocate
the combat pool dice used in the damage resistance test to either
dodging or soaking damage. The target number for dodging is 4, counting
allocated combat pool dice only, and with modifiers for
injury, confusion, and other general modifiers (but not movement)...
Also the following modifiers apply for the attack being resisted:
+1 for every 3 rounds fired, +1 for every level of spread for a
shotgun. A +2 modifier is also applied for restricted terrain (tunnels,
on a ladder, prone, etc.). If the number of dodge
successes exceed the number of successes made by the attacker, the shot
is a clean miss. Otherwise, the damage is staged down appropriately, and
the poor sucker counts damage resistance dice as normal, and any
succesful combat pool dice.
For melee attacks on which a person uses Full Defense, first she makes
a test with the appropriate unarmed or armed combat skill and as many
combat pool dice as she wishes, with the usual melee target number. If
the she has more successes, no one is struck and no damage is done
(because she was fully defending only). If hit, the defender can also
choose to usereamining combat pool dice forthe damage resistance test.
Only rigged vehicles can attempt to dodge. The TN for a rigged vehicle
is 4 plus the vehicles handling, plus the same dodging modifers as for
ranged combat above. Only control pool may be used for dodging.
Dodging and damage resistance are treated as the same test for
purposes of karma and re-rolling non-successes. Threat Rating dice are
usable for both dodging and damage resistance portions of the test-it
adds to body AND acts as a combat pool for dodging.

This basically means that even people in the full buff have as good
a chance of getting out of the way of a cannon shell as folks in heavy
armor- why should'nt they, they are at least as nimble? (Don't laugh-
it came up once in play!)
However, somebody in heavy armor with a decent body is sometimes
just as well if not better off spending thier combat pool to add to body
and just "soak" the damage- Say if you have body of 10, 7 points of
ballistic, and are being shot with a Heavy pistol (no apds). Well,
dodging is dumb. "Soaking" reperesents the old idea shifting so the
bullet hits you in a well armored or non crucial spot, hoping your body
is good enough to handle all the base damage (and more) and your combat
pool will offset the rest. Of course,there is still knockdown, and you
may have misjudged the power of the weapon...

Another helpful additon was the following:

C10: Can Athletics help you Dodge?
House: If you spend a complex action to use Athletics, you can use your
athletics skill to aid in dodging at a rate of one
dodge success per two athletics successes (use the dodging target number
for the athletics test). This applies to all attacks against you until
your next action.

This helps a great deal in moving through fire, because you roll
athletics once, keeping the dice so you can compare them to any attacks,
basically requiring anybody to get multiple succeses just to tag you.
If at some point you DON'T have enough succeses, you can spend
karma for a re-roll as usual, using new dice so that you don't loose
those old 4's and 5's when looking for 6's. Then any dice you re-rolled
can be swapped with the dice in the original roll. Sound's complicated,
but the effect is you re-roll with karma and only keep it if the roll is
higher. Important, since the same roll is used until your next turn,
and those first 4's might still help later.
Note that its a complex action, so you can't shoot back, but it
will get you out of the room, behind cover, whatever. It's also good
for moving up to make melee attacks- if your really lucky, some idiot
will intercept you movement or move past you, letting you attack while
still dodging with athletics.

For more, check our web page, THE VORTEX;
http://www.concentric.net/~evamarie/srmain.htm

Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands of a
psycotic -Einstien

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Message no. 79 on 10.10.97 bxb121@***.EDU wrote:

b> <RE: Dumb Player with Tactical Genius Character>
b>
b> > Sure. But what am I (as a GM) supposed to do? Tell him tactics all
b> > the time? If I did that (and a high tactics-rating as a hugh impact
b>
b> I had a player try this. Basically it came down to this: Faced with
b> a tactical decision, he could roll, and ask me what SOP was. I'd
b> tell him. Combined with a perception test, he could find various
b> weak point and strengths in their defenses.
b>
b> Actually USING this knowledge was up to the player.

This does work, but only limited. I once played a 'tactical genius
character' and he even based the way he entered a bar on tactical
considerations. You can't do that with rolls.
The way you interact with your environment is based on what you know -or
believe you know-, so what you do is sometimes switchinf the char from no-
tactics to full-tactics...

b> Basically, his skill allowed him to KNOW that MCT tends to bind a
b> high force fire elemental to the place and give command to the head
b> sec team. he KNEW that this elemental was often ordered to intercept
b> spells targeting the sec team. He KNEW that this was pretty much the
b> only magical security a non zero-zero MCT site would _normally_ have.

This isn't tactics. What you told he was more like etiquette/corp/
security, tactics is the way you behave in a combat situation. Stuff like
fields of fire, sweeping rooms and moving across fields.

b> He had to FIGURE OUT that if he wanted his mage to be any good, he
b> better deal with the elemental, or at least with the orders it got.
b>
b> The skill gave him knowledge. Decisions were up to him.

So you still left the real tactics up to him, right?

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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Message no. 80 I was wondering if anyone could specify how the combat pool works.
Eventhough I have been playing Shadowrun for years it has been used in
different ways depending on the GM. I do know that dice allocated to attacks
only apply to that attack but ... Same must apply to Soaking damage

Dodging: The Dice you allocate for this, does that only appear to the given
attack or all attacks made again you that given Combat Turn?

Niels Sønderborg

A Danish Runner ;)

_________________________________________________________________
Få alle de nye og sjove ikoner med MSN Messenger http://messenger.msn.dk

Message no. 81 On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 16:10:23 +0200
"Niels Sønderborg" <trick_ster@*******.com> wrote:

> I was wondering if anyone could specify how the combat pool works.
> Eventhough I have been playing Shadowrun for years it has been used in
> different ways depending on the GM. I do know that dice allocated to attacks
> only apply to that attack but ... Same must apply to Soaking damage
>
> Dodging: The Dice you allocate for this, does that only appear to the given
> attack or all attacks made again you that given Combat Turn?

Dice alocated do dodging only work for that specific attack. You must
allocate more dice every time you're shot at.

--
Bira
http://www.shadowlandbr.hpg.com.br ou
http://www24.brinkster.com/shadowlandbr/index.html

Message no. 82 According to Niels Sønderborg, on Sunday 19 October 2003 16:10 the word on
the street was...

> I was wondering if anyone could specify how the combat pool works.
> Eventhough I have been playing Shadowrun for years it has been used in
> different ways depending on the GM. I do know that dice allocated to
> attacks only apply to that attack but ... Same must apply to Soaking
> damage

Yes, it does.

> Dodging: The Dice you allocate for this, does that only appear to the
> given attack or all attacks made again you that given Combat Turn?

Only to the attack you use the dice against. If you want to dodge the next
attack, you need to allocate more dice (if you have any left).

Basically, the way any dice pool works is that the moment you use any dice
from it, they are not available anymore during the rest of the turn. This
is even the case for such things as spell defense using Spell Pool dice:
you take them out of the pool to use for spell defense, even if that spell
defense isn't immediately needed.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Don't you know you know what's right?
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
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