Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Combat pool refreshes per turn?
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 02:47:21 +0000
Reading through 3rd edition to see if I missed anything the first
time, I noticed, on dice pools, that they only refresh at the start
of a turn.

THAT is a change I'm not sure I'm happy about. IMHO it reduces combat
pool from a 'stance choice', of how aggressive/defensive the
character is, to an 'emergency bonus' similar to karma pool, but
refreshes more often. It has the advantage of reducing the advantage
of 'fast' characters, which is probably why it was introduced. I'm
not entirely sure I'll use this rule or stick to the old
initiative/cpool house rules we used.

Any other thoughts on this one?


Regards,
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 2
From: Jett <zmjett@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Combat pool refreshes per turn?
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 21:13:09 -0500
Fade wrote:

> Reading through 3rd edition to see if I missed anything the first
> time, I noticed, on dice pools, that they only refresh at the start
> of a turn.
>
> THAT is a change I'm not sure I'm happy about. IMHO it reduces combat
> pool from a 'stance choice', of how aggressive/defensive the
> character is, to an 'emergency bonus' similar to karma pool, but
> refreshes more often. It has the advantage of reducing the advantage
> of 'fast' characters, which is probably why it was introduced.

Probably. SR3 made a lot of moves toward trying to equalize things for
faster and slower characters, humans and metahumans, etc. Some ideas were
good, IMO, some weren't. But I recall hearing (don't quote me) that SR3
was MAINLY introduced to 1) provide a simpler system for new players to
learn, and 2) to clarify some older stuff for us veterans. Nothing in the
book says "You must now use all the SR3 rules. Throw out your SR2,
because it's no longer any use". :)

>
> Any other thoughts on this one?

That's one of the reasons I still use SR2 Initiative, actually. I prefer
the combat pool refreshing every turn, thanks. I think the point of the
"once per round" idea was basically, again to equalize between the guy
with an init of 7 and the guy with an init of let's say 25. Suppose they
both have a combat pool of 8. Well, if you figure it out, with the combat
pool refreshing every time the character acts, for that combat round, the
speedster gets a total of 24 dice (assuming he uses his whole pool each
time it refreshes) cause he gets 3 turns, while the other guy gets only
his 8, since he only acts once. It makes sense and definitely equalizes
things, I'm just not sure I like the new way of doing it since I don't
really think that things NEEDED equalizing.

--Jett

<*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>


"I'll make this clear, that I'm just here for backup. And to offer the
occasional advice or insult."
--Jett, on being an NPC

Behold the mighty sonic scream of the Jett!

http://www.scifi-fantasy.com/~zmjett/shadow.htm
Message no. 3
From: Lance Dillon <riffraff@********.RR.COM>
Subject: Re: Combat pool refreshes per turn?
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 02:11:38 +0000
Fade wrote:
>
> Reading through 3rd edition to see if I missed anything the first
> time, I noticed, on dice pools, that they only refresh at the start
> of a turn.
>
> THAT is a change I'm not sure I'm happy about. IMHO it reduces combat
> pool from a 'stance choice', of how aggressive/defensive the
> character is, to an 'emergency bonus' similar to karma pool, but
> refreshes more often. It has the advantage of reducing the advantage
> of 'fast' characters, which is probably why it was introduced. I'm
> not entirely sure I'll use this rule or stick to the old
> initiative/cpool house rules we used.
>
> Any other thoughts on this one?
>
> Regards,
> --
> Fade
>

personally, id have to say i agree with it...it makes the skills worth a
lot more...

before, it seemed to boil down to who had the highest combat pool, what
with cyberware, spells, and who knows what else, the skills didnt seem
to mean much...especially at the beginning, when the skill level didnt
get higher than 6 anyway (or 8 with specialization)........


--
Lance Dillon
Network Administrator
Nielsen Media Research
--
"Dogpile on the rabbit! Dogpile on the rabbit!"
Message no. 4
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Combat pool refreshes per turn?
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 22:38:12 -0500
Quoting Fade (runefo@***.UIO.NO):
> THAT is a change I'm not sure I'm happy about. IMHO it reduces combat
> pool from a 'stance choice', of how aggressive/defensive the
> character is, to an 'emergency bonus' similar to karma pool, but
> refreshes more often. It has the advantage of reducing the advantage
> of 'fast' characters, which is probably why it was introduced. I'm
> not entirely sure I'll use this rule or stick to the old
> initiative/cpool house rules we used.

The problem, I think, was that with the combat pool refreshing
on every turn (as opposed to every round), it was just adding in way too
many dice. With three actions and a combat pool of 7 (which is a bit low,
for a combat-focussed character), that's 21 extra dice per round. That's
pretty insane. Allocating combat pool dice wasn't as much of an issue, because
they came back so quickly...you could always pretty much be sure that you'd
have some to defend yourself with, and that (combined with lots of armor and
readily-available magical healing, two other things SR3 reduced) meant injuries
were rarer and lighter.
The change in combat pool, like the change in initiative, rewards
tactical thinking, and makes combat a bit less of a game of charging straight
at each other and hoping to hit first. Cover and timing become more
important. I think it's a Good Thing.
For what it's worth, we'd actually been playing with combat pool
that way, as a house rule, long before SR3 ever hit the presses. I played
a fairly munchkinish street sam under the once-per-round combat pool rule,
and I didn't feel that it really weakened me that much compared to the other
characters. I still kicked lots of ass, for as long as it took me to
overcome my infatuation with heavy cyber and make a more balanced character :)
So, consider this a product testimonial. It works for us. YMMV.

--Sean
--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 5
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Combat pool refreshes per turn?
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 02:21:39 EST
In a message dated 10/26/1998 8:46:50 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
runefo@***.UIO.NO writes:

>
> THAT is a change I'm not sure I'm happy about. IMHO it reduces combat
> pool from a 'stance choice', of how aggressive/defensive the
> character is, to an 'emergency bonus' similar to karma pool, but
> refreshes more often. It has the advantage of reducing the advantage
> of 'fast' characters, which is probably why it was introduced. I'm
> not entirely sure I'll use this rule or stick to the old
> initiative/cpool house rules we used.
>
> Any other thoughts on this one?
>
I find I agree with you on the initial impression this change left in my own
mind, as well as the mind of the entire game group.

-BUT- it did have a nice effect of slowing some of them down and making them
become thinking PC's instead of combative ones. Damn, that was a nice change.

-K
Message no. 6
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Combat pool refreshes per turn?
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 07:38:35 -0700
For the mere cost of a Thaum, K in the Shadows wrote:
/
/ In a message dated 10/26/1998 8:46:50 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
/ runefo@***.UIO.NO writes:
/ >
/ > THAT is a change I'm not sure I'm happy about. IMHO it reduces combat
/ > pool from a 'stance choice', of how aggressive/defensive the
/ > character is, to an 'emergency bonus' similar to karma pool, but
/ > refreshes more often. It has the advantage of reducing the advantage
/ > of 'fast' characters, which is probably why it was introduced. I'm
/ > not entirely sure I'll use this rule or stick to the old
/ > initiative/cpool house rules we used.
/ >
/ > Any other thoughts on this one?
/ >
/ I find I agree with you on the initial impression this change left in my own
/ mind, as well as the mind of the entire game group.
/
/ -BUT- it did have a nice effect of slowing some of them down and making them
/ become thinking PC's instead of combative ones. Damn, that was a nice change.

Ditto that. Combat has now become challenging and fun, for both Me and
my Players.

With CP refreshing on every action combats were fantasy-like. PCs would
wade in to the most unbelieveable situations and come out smelling like a
rose.

When CP only refreshes once a turn combat becomes gritty, IMHO. During
playtesting one of the PCs, true to form, rushed the NPCs. He dropped
like a ton of bricks. The rest of the players quickly reassessed the
situation and declared that their PCs were diving for cover. Everyone
started looking for any way they could to increase the modifiers for
the other side. And for the first time ever my players were developing
serious tactics, both on an individual basis and as a team.

Everyone came away from that wiping the sweat off thier brow, and
looking forward to the next combat encounter :)

Give it a try. Set the PCs up in a laser tag tournament just so no one
gets killed. If you and your group don't like it you can always go
back. I think you'll be suprised tho.

-David Buehrer
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 7
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Combat pool refreshes per turn?
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 14:55:02 -0600
Reading through 3rd edition to see if I missed anything the first
time, I noticed, on dice pools, that they only refresh at the start
of a turn.

THAT is a change I'm not sure I'm happy about. IMHO it reduces combat
pool from a 'stance choice', of how aggressive/defensive the
character is, to an 'emergency bonus' similar to karma pool, but
refreshes more often. It has the advantage of reducing the advantage
of 'fast' characters, which is probably why it was introduced. I'm
not entirely sure I'll use this rule or stick to the old
initiative/cpool house rules we used.

Any other thoughts on this one?

+++++++++++++++
Yeah, it cheesed me some, but playtesters (and now players) seem cool
with it. I agree with you to an extent; it does limit the CP impact a bit
much.
However, its not a DIS advantage for fast characters; by the time they
take their 6th shot, their target won't have any CP for defense.
It may seem to reduce the importance of good attributes, but the new
skill rules make them more important than before, imo.
I'm hoping CP will be an area that the CC adds a lot to (supposedly,
thats part of the point of SR3- make it easier to add new things). For
example, I personally like some dodge / athletics use (I've given my idea
before), and I could see other skills allowing a similar things for other
combat pool uses (aiming could allow a combat skill test, successes
generating CP for the next shot, for ex). Perhaps just allowing a complex
action to be spent to refresh any non-karma pool would work, too.

Mongoose
Message no. 8
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Combat pool refreshes per turn?
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 15:49:22 -0500
Quoting Mongoose (evamarie@**********.net):
> However, its not a DIS advantage for fast characters; by the time they
> take their 6th shot, their target won't have any CP for defense.

This is an important point, and ties in closely with another effect
of the new initiative system. Fast character will tend to use all of their
combat pool every round, because they get to go last as well as first,
and can blow any dice they have left, knowing their pool will refresh after
their action. Slow characters, on the other hand, have to leave pool dice
unused to defend themselves against people coming after them, and as a result,
may have extra dice left over at the end of the round.
So, basically, fast folks get a lot more mileage out of their combat
pool.

--Sean


--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 9
From: Shaun Gilroy <shaung@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Combat pool refreshes per turn?
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 16:04:37 -0500
At 02:55 PM 10/27/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Reading through 3rd edition to see if I missed anything the first
>time, I noticed, on dice pools, that they only refresh at the start
>of a turn.
>
>THAT is a change I'm not sure I'm happy about. IMHO it reduces combat
>pool from a 'stance choice', of how aggressive/defensive the
>character is, to an 'emergency bonus' similar to karma pool, but
>refreshes more often. It has the advantage of reducing the advantage
>of 'fast' characters, which is probably why it was introduced. I'm
>not entirely sure I'll use this rule or stick to the old
>initiative/cpool house rules we used.
>
>Any other thoughts on this one?

The funny thing is that my group has always played it this way. My
original descision to do this was that it fixed (a lot of) the problems w/
slow vs. fast characters. When I instigated this change in my games, the
initiative balance for faster characters became a non-point.

Some of you may remember me complaining about the changed initiative, a
ways back and how I thought initiative was better the way it was... It just
occurred to me that this may have been the reason we never had problems
with the old system.

Well, anyway, I prefer it this way.
-) It makes fights more realistically bloody
-) It forces players to duck instead of deciding they can "take it"
-) It makes combat more exciting
-) It makes the player start thinking "How can I keep the bullets from
hitting me? --they do damage now."

All of these things make for a fresher game, IMHO.

(>)noysh the spoonë bard
-> jack of all trades, master of none. <-
Message no. 10
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Combat pool refreshes per turn?
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 16:20:12 -0500
Sean McCrohan wrote:
>
> This is an important point, and ties in closely with another effect
> of the new initiative system. Fast character will tend to use all of their
> combat pool every round, because they get to go last as well as first,
> and can blow any dice they have left, knowing their pool will refresh after
> their action. Slow characters, on the other hand, have to leave pool dice
> unused to defend themselves against people coming after them, and as a result,
> may have extra dice left over at the end of the round.

Hmmmm... This is a good point. I hadn't thought about it before.

Still, on further reflection, it doesn't really *change* anything from the
slow character's perspective. He/she still has the same number of combat
pool dice as before, and would still have needed to set most of them aside
for defense in SRII. The only change is for the fast character, who will
have to conserve CP dice over the combat round and will get to blow them
for pure offense at the *end* of the round, rather than the *beginning*.

I still think this tips the scales toward the slower characters.. I'd
rather have someone using all their combat pool dice to kill me *after* my
action, once I've had a chance to take cover, than before.


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 11
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Combat pool refreshes per turn?
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 16:31:28 -0500
Quoting Steve Eley (sfeley@***.NET):
> Still, on further reflection, it doesn't really *change* anything from the
> slow character's perspective. He/she still has the same number of combat
> pool dice as before, and would still have needed to set most of them aside
> for defense in SRII. The only change is for the fast character, who will
> have to conserve CP dice over the combat round and will get to blow them
> for pure offense at the *end* of the round, rather than the *beginning*.

Right...it really only makes a difference for slow characters when
you combine both the combat pool change AND the initiative change. Under
SR2, the slow character has to spend combat pool to survive until their
action, but they can feel free to blow all of it at that point, because
there's noone left to defend against. Under SR3, that's no longer true.

Anyway, I like the SR3 initiative and combat rules.

--Sean

--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 12
From: Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
Subject: Re: Combat pool refreshes per turn?
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 23:34:57 +0100
And so it came to happen that Sean McCrohan wrote in reply to Steve
Eley:

<snipped Steve's wroting>
> Right...it really only makes a difference for slow characters when
> you combine both the combat pool change AND the initiative change. Under
> SR2, the slow character has to spend combat pool to survive until their
> action, but they can feel free to blow all of it at that point, because
> there's noone left to defend against. Under SR3, that's no longer true.

I disagree, under SR2nd. the slow could definetly not use every CPdice
up. They needed those dice badly for the next Combatturn, so they most
of the time did not even considered to shoot unless it was a clear
shot or the enemy/runner was the last one that stood in their way.
They had just the first round of combat to move something as they
could use theyr first CP to the max, the one that they had when every
CP was refreshed (1st. Round of Comabt: Every CP rerfreshes). So they
used those to dodge, soak whatever damage was coming at them. After
that they usualy had just the next refresh in maybe 10 or 11 if they
where lucky. Meanwhile the fast had pumped them with lead and if they
survived that mayhem they needed they'r next CPdice to maybe attack
one and then they had to spare the rest for the next bloody round of
Combat. From there on their CP just refreshed the Phase in which they
could act first time in the Combatturn. That was a high disadvantage
while the fast could always let the bullets fly and they used nearly
twice to threetimes that much CP than the slow ones. I can't give you
an exact page reference for SR2nd. on that issue as I have the german
version, but it is stated under the Combatsection regarding Dicepools
(something around page 84 then)

> Anyway, I like the SR3 initiative and combat rules.

Yes, it sounds in reflection now a bit more balanced and all in all
more to be something for the brain not for the I'll go out and shoot
some punks. Those little buggers by now are pretty nasty I found out
recently ;oP.
After initial distrust I came to like them.
--
---> Steadfast
Surfin' through the 'trix is
not like dustin crops boy!
Uh, 089 of 200 it states in Ger. BABY...
Message no. 13
From: "XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Combat pool refreshes per turn?
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 23:54:38 -0600
> for defense in SRII. The only change is for the fast character, who will
> have to conserve CP dice over the combat round and will get to blow them
> for pure offense at the *end* of the round, rather than the *beginning*.
>
> I still think this tips the scales toward the slower characters.. I'd
> rather have someone using all their combat pool dice to kill me *after* my
> action, once I've had a chance to take cover, than before.

This is a matter of tactics. What about the character that likes to hit them
fast and hard, so that anything that the defender tries to do is hampered
(by having used up his combat pool in defense, or higher target numbers
because they're wounded)? Then the defender has the option of using a bunch
of pool at the beginning, to defend against the initial hit, or else ration
a few out for each defensive action.



-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Combat pool refreshes per turn?, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!