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Message no. 1
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Combat Spells + related
Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 16:29:45 GMT
Gurth writes

> A Halliwell said on 21:31/ 4 May 96...
>
> > The spells that do STUN damage are STUN arrow/bolt/cloud etc.
> > There is no STUN DART, because the drain would be non-existant.
> > (STUN arrow has an L1 drain in ShR I and something like F/2L in ShR II?)
>
> [(F/2)-1]L... Cast it at Force 6 and still take 2L drain :) It would be a
> very powerful spell, if you've got a decent magic pool...
Well until you meet a target with shielding + mountains at which
point in time your large dice pile results in next to no successes
and a probably light wound.

This was not the reason for my 'stun cannon' spell but is its best
use. Learn at force 7+ exclusive expendable, gives force 11.
Base D stun, zero net successes and the target falls down poor soul
needs 11's to resist ((F/2)-1)D drain! 7/2 = 3.5 rounds down to 3-1=2
game minimum, a bit of willpower plus centering and 8 2's are easy to
come by for drain, result is unconcious opposition. [I do note
however that Yamaha pulsar tasers work even better! 10S half impact,
smartgun = 2's to hit oops!!! plus the sine wave shock for anything
that by a miracle is not unconcious after, ok the spells have LOS
range but take a complex to cast!]

>
For munching spells the L damage damaging manipulation works best,
stun damage if you can get it for (F/2)M. If your GM is really kind
drop the elemental affects for L drain [not allowed by the book!] now
take at a nice high force, about 9 to 11 with fetish and exclusivity
works best, learn it by metaplanar questing to keep time down and you
get post force 12 spell 1/2 impact armour for 5M drain that needs a
fixed 4's to stage up and i don't care if the targets got shielding
as my target numbers not an attribute value! [needless to say i would
rather frown on anyone actually doing this! and it can be slowed
down using background count though the offending magician will
simply centre vs penalties to target numbers]

Mark
Message no. 2
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Combat Spells + related
Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 11:37:30 +0100
Mark Steedman said on 16:29/ 7 May 96...

> > [(F/2)-1]L... Cast it at Force 6 and still take 2L drain :) It would be a
> > very powerful spell, if you've got a decent magic pool...
> Well until you meet a target with shielding + mountains at which
> point in time your large dice pile results in next to no successes
> and a probably light wound.

At that moment you start casting your regular Mana Bolt :) I don't think
I've seen one NPC who could resist that one if our shaman really put some
effort behind it...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"They" can do anything they want.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 3
From: Peter David Boddy <pdboddy@****.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: Combat Spells + related
Date: Wed, 8 May 96 6:09:58 EDT
Gurth writes:
>
>
> At that moment you start casting your regular Mana Bolt :) I don't think
> I've seen one NPC who could resist that one if our shaman really put some
> effort behind it...

This is usually the problem with published NPC's, not tough enough, though
FASA has corrected that problem in recent sourcebooks, Lone Star, CFS, and
Aztlan be a few examples. Also, do you notice how players complain when
you use their own tactics against them? "The corps toughest fighter is a
TROLL? Mage, warm up that manabolt spell!"

Pete

Pete aka Spitfire
Test your might...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter David Boddy
Carleton University
Email address: pdboddy@****.carleton.ca
Email address: bx955@*******.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 4
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Combat Spells + related
Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 11:29:49 GMT
Peter David Boddy writes

> Gurth writes:
> >
> >
> > At that moment you start casting your regular Mana Bolt :) I don't think
> > I've seen one NPC who could resist that one if our shaman really put some
> > effort behind it...
>
> This is usually the problem with published NPC's, not tough enough, though
> FASA has corrected that problem in recent sourcebooks, Lone Star, CFS, and
> Aztlan be a few examples.
Ah yes all those mages they used to produce that had no initiative,
enough shielding to stop a 'runnaway express' spell and so little
armour the first heavy pistol shot would do (as PC's haul out assault
rilfes) Easy to correct but was annoying.

> Also, do you notice how players complain when
> you use their own tactics against them?
Particularly when they involve flash grenades or grounding spells.

> "The corps toughest fighter is a
> TROLL? Mage, warm up that manabolt spell!"
>
Don't let FASA design your Troll, the player never do.

> Pete
>
Mark
Message no. 5
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Combat Spells + related
Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 20:41:49 +0200
At 12:09 Uhr 8.05.96, Peter David Boddy wrote:
>Also, do you notice how players complain when
>you use their own tactics against them? "The corps toughest fighter is a
>TROLL? Mage, warm up that manabolt spell!"
Pfft... take out that troll with physical spells shouldn't be that hard.
What about a nice Urban Renewal, cast at the 2nd floor above said troll?
Or -inside a building- below his feet? Even more complex actions may be
helpful, like a smoke-grenade combined with an open window, combined with a
Levitate self spell...

I hate the boring 'If the Sam can't shoot it, let the Shaman do the work!'
approach... (Uh... no... I am NOT a cat shaman! :-)

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 6
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Combat Spells + related
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 13:12:57 +0100
Sascha Pabst said on 20:41/ 8 May 96...

> Pfft... take out that troll with physical spells shouldn't be that hard.
> What about a nice Urban Renewal, cast at the 2nd floor above said troll?
> Or -inside a building- below his feet? Even more complex actions may be
> helpful, like a smoke-grenade combined with an open window, combined with a
> Levitate self spell...
>
> I hate the boring 'If the Sam can't shoot it, let the Shaman do the work!'
> approach... (Uh... no... I am NOT a cat shaman! :-)

There's a lot to be said for using other spells than the obvious --
instead of Manabolting the ganger, you can levitate him out of the window
(or *through* the window, eh Maurice? :), cast Chaos at the corp goon,
Control Thoughts on the opposing runner so he starts to shoot his buddies,
Poltergeist a room so everybody has a hard time, Lift & Push one enemy
into another, and so on.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"They" can do anything they want.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 7
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Combat Spells + related
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 13:21:39 GMT
> From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>

> Sascha Pabst said on 20:41/ 8 May 96...
>
> > Pfft... take out that troll with physical spells shouldn't be that hard.
> > What about a nice Urban Renewal, cast at the 2nd floor above said troll?
> > Or -inside a building- below his feet?
Due to force vs barrier rating only works on older buildings, not
most corp stuff but when it does dropping the roof on the guy tends
to work rather well. Assuming there is enough roof left, the time i
saw this done the shaman got a bit zelous and reduced the building to
dust (rather too much damage) so well there was not much left to bury
the target.

> There's a lot to be said for using other spells than the obvious --
> instead of Manabolting the ganger, you can levitate him out of the window
> (or *through* the window, eh Maurice? :),
Works equally well for 'now Mr scientist no running away when we want
to chat to you', 'come float over here'. Fortunately there are no
longer 1sted style havn'e rolled one autosuccess, i have heard
rumours of levitating buildings etc from other games before 2nded
came out. Mind you if you can get the roll its a wonderful solution
to traffic jams, police roadblocks etc. (in latter case use a high
force spell so it doesn't get beaten up at an inopertune moment)

> cast Chaos at the corp goon,
> Control Thoughts on the opposing runner so he starts to shoot his buddies,
Also makes for docile prisoners without the handcuffs etc that make
boarder posts so suspicious, a well spilt bottle of alcohol (on NPC)
has also been seen combined (They got out the the NAN very easy, in
the end).

> Poltergeist a room so everybody has a hard time, Lift & Push one enemy
> into another, and so on.
>
Mark
Message no. 8
From: Robyn King-Nitschke <rking@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Combat Spells + related
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 09:02:43 -0700
Gurth writes:

>
> There's a lot to be said for using other spells than the obvious --
> instead of Manabolting the ganger, you can levitate him out of the window
> (or *through* the window, eh Maurice? :), cast Chaos at the corp goon,
> Control Thoughts on the opposing runner so he starts to shoot his buddies,
> Poltergeist a room so everybody has a hard time, Lift & Push one enemy
> into another, and so on.
>

Oh, yeah! I love Levitate Person. 'Hawk uses that more than almost
any other spell when we're in combat with a small number of opponents.
Either pick 'em up and drop 'em, or hold 'em still so the assassin
and the two samurai can plug 'em at their convenience. :) Great
spell, that!

--o'Rat
Message no. 9
From: Justin Thomas <Justin.C.Thomas-1@**.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Combat Spells + related
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 13:56:33 -0500
At 09:02 AM 5/9/96 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Gurth writes:
>
>>
>> There's a lot to be said for using other spells than the obvious --
>> instead of Manabolting the ganger, you can levitate him out of the window
>> (or *through* the window, eh Maurice? :), cast Chaos at the corp goon,
>> Control Thoughts on the opposing runner so he starts to shoot his buddies,
>> Poltergeist a room so everybody has a hard time, Lift & Push one enemy
>> into another, and so on.
>>
>
>Oh, yeah! I love Levitate Person. 'Hawk uses that more than almost
>any other spell when we're in combat with a small number of opponents.
>Either pick 'em up and drop 'em, or hold 'em still so the assassin
>and the two samurai can plug 'em at their convenience. :) Great
>spell, that!
>

but levitation requires a VOLUNTARY target... unless you modified it...
******************************
Justin Thomas
"Farr"
Email:
thom0767@****.tc.umn.edu
http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/g192/thom0767/index.html
Message no. 10
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Combat Spells + related
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 16:46:22 -0500
> I hate the boring 'If the Sam can't shoot it, let the Shaman do the work!'
> approach... (Uh... no... I am NOT a cat shaman! :-)

Yeegads, if our groups went by this approach, we'd be making new characters
weekly (our magicians suck)...

--------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
--------------------------------------------------------
* All you need to start up an insane asylum is *
* an empty room and the right kind of people *
--------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 11
From: Tom Pendergrast <pendergr@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Combat Spells + related
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 17:18:40 -0700 (PDT)
> > I hate the boring 'If the Sam can't shoot it, let the Shaman do the work!'
> > approach... (Uh... no... I am NOT a cat shaman! :-)
>
> Yeegads, if our groups went by this approach, we'd be making new characters
> weekly (our magicians suck)...

((Really?! For the last couple of years, our mages have consistently
been the most powerful members of the party... to the extent of "Oh thank
God, Garth is here... we're saved!"))... and that's BEFORE they get
inititation and many foci...))


---Tom---
Message no. 12
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Combat Spells + related
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 02:32:26 +0200
At 2:18 Uhr 10.05.96, Tom Pendergrast wrote:
>((Really?! For the last couple of years, our mages have consistently
>been the most powerful members of the party... to the extent of "Oh thank
>God, Garth is here... we're saved!"))... and that's BEFORE they get
>inititation and many foci...))

... but have you ever seen what happens to a group in need of help, if
a) a japanese Street Samurai with strict /bushido/, b) a wolf shapeshifter
and c) a wolf shaman happen to be in this group?
a) "Ok, you leave, I cover"
b) "No, I'll be faster, so I cover."
c) "I will never leave the pack!"
(other teammembers) "Hey, let's move!!!"
a-c) "Shutup, and all of you leave!"
*sigh* we nearly started fighting among us...

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 13
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Combat Spells + related
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 12:25:01 +0100
Justin Thomas said on 13:56/ 9 May 96...

> but levitation requires a VOLUNTARY target... unless you modified it...

No, it doesn't. The only restriction is that, if someone is holding the
item you want to levitate, he/she may make a Strength test to hold onto
it. Naturally, this would also apply if you want to levitate someone who
is holding on to a fence, for example.

This makes levitate a very powerful spell, indeed. Nothing to stop you
from moving someone up into the air for 20 meters and then releasing the
spell...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Magazines and free soda.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 14
From: HALOWEEN JACK <SBC3KCB@*******.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Combat Spells + related
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 13:49:44 GMT
Then again if you really wanted to levitate someone you could always
cast the spell at their shoes, this overcomes the difficulty with a
voluntary target. (I can't remember if you actually need a voluntary
target)


Love is the fine line between pleasure and pain

Except when you're into S&M when it's just pain! pain! pain!

Haloween Jack
Message no. 15
From: "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.com>
Subject: Re: Combat Spells + related
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 09:12:37 -0500 (CDT)
On Fri, 10 May 1996, Sascha Pabst wrote:

> At 2:18 Uhr 10.05.96, Tom Pendergrast wrote:
> >((Really?! For the last couple of years, our mages have consistently
> >been the most powerful members of the party... to the extent of "Oh thank
> >God, Garth is here... we're saved!"))... and that's BEFORE they get
> >inititation and many foci...))
>
> ... but have you ever seen what happens to a group in need of help, if
> a) a japanese Street Samurai with strict /bushido/, b) a wolf shapeshifter
> and c) a wolf shaman happen to be in this group?
> a) "Ok, you leave, I cover"
> b) "No, I'll be faster, so I cover."
> c) "I will never leave the pack!"
> (other teammembers) "Hey, let's move!!!"
> a-c) "Shutup, and all of you leave!"
> *sigh* we nearly started fighting among us...
>

Heh... sounds like us playing AD&D many years ago...

"I take point."
"No, _I_ take point."
"No, _I'm_ going to take point. I'm a cavalier. It's my job to take point."
"Well I'm a fucking paladin, so step off you pansy cavalier."
"My character pushes Jeff's character to the ground."
"My character gets up and draws his sword with the intent to kill John's
character."
(other members of the group): "We just walk around them and continue down
the passageway."



|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies
Message no. 16
From: Tom Pendergrast <pendergr@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Combat Spells + related
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 14:52:17 -0700 (PDT)
> > >((Really?! For the last couple of years, our mages have consistently
> > >been the most powerful members of the party... to the extent of "Oh
thank
> > >God, Garth is here... we're saved!"))... and that's BEFORE they get
> > >inititation and many foci...))

> > ... but have you ever seen what happens to a group in need of help, if
> > a) a japanese Street Samurai with strict /bushido/, b) a wolf shapeshifter
> > and c) a wolf shaman happen to be in this group?
> > a) "Ok, you leave, I cover"
> > b) "No, I'll be faster, so I cover."
> > c) "I will never leave the pack!"
> > (other teammembers) "Hey, let's move!!!"
> > a-c) "Shutup, and all of you leave!"
> > *sigh* we nearly started fighting among us...

> "I take point."
> "No, _I_ take point."
> "No, _I'm_ going to take point. I'm a cavalier. It's my job to take
point."
> "Well I'm a fucking paladin, so step off you pansy cavalier."
> "My character gets up and draws his sword with the intent to kill John's
> character."
> (other members of the group): "We just walk around them and continue down
> the passageway."

((The trick to a really powerful group is for this not happen...
low-powerd group can be incredibly powerful, if they work together
properly... the top two examples happened once with our party...
_ONCE_... we got really fragged... even with all our
chrome/skills/magic/power, ew got geeked because we couldn't work
together... after that, we (the chars) worked together... and we got much
more powerful... a group working together is many times the power of the
sum of its members...))


---Tom---
Message no. 17
From: wilsonpj@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Peter)
Subject: Re: Combat Spells + related
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 23:50:26 -0600
>Heh... sounds like us playing AD&D many years ago...
>
>"I take point."
>"No, _I_ take point."
>"No, _I'm_ going to take point. I'm a cavalier. It's my job to take
point."
>"Well I'm a fucking paladin, so step off you pansy cavalier."
>"My character pushes Jeff's character to the ground."
>"My character gets up and draws his sword with the intent to kill John's
>character."
>(other members of the group): "We just walk around them and continue down
>the passageway."
>


So, how often did you trip every trap in the joint because of these stupid
fighter types?

Piatro
Message no. 18
From: Peter David Boddy <pdboddy@****.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: Combat Spells + related
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 1:59:56 EDT
Peter writes:
>
> >Heh... sounds like us playing AD&D many years ago...
> >
> >"I take point."
> >"No, _I_ take point."
> >"No, _I'm_ going to take point. I'm a cavalier. It's my job to take
point."
> >"Well I'm a fucking paladin, so step off you pansy cavalier."
> >"My character pushes Jeff's character to the ground."
> >"My character gets up and draws his sword with the intent to kill John's
> >character."
> >(other members of the group): "We just walk around them and continue down
> >the passageway."
> >
>
> So, how often did you trip every trap in the joint because of these stupid
> fighter types?

It happened often enough, we finally used their horses to gallop down the
hallway triping all the traps. The spiked pit trap finally got them in
the end.

Pete

Pete aka Spitfire
Test your might...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter David Boddy
Carleton University
Email address: pdboddy@****.carleton.ca
Email address: bx955@*******.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 19
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Combat Spells + related
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 11:26:04 +0100
Dr. Bolthy von Schotz said on 9:12/10 May 96...

> Heh... sounds like us playing AD&D many years ago...
>
> "I take point."
> "No, _I_ take point."
> "No, _I'm_ going to take point. I'm a cavalier. It's my job to take
point."
> "Well I'm a fucking paladin, so step off you pansy cavalier."
> "My character pushes Jeff's character to the ground."
> "My character gets up and draws his sword with the intent to kill John's
> character."
> (other members of the group): "We just walk around them and continue down
> the passageway."

You mean it didn't go like: "Well, your character is a dwarf (or halfling
or gnome), so you take point so we can shoot over your head when we run
into monsters."?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Magazines and free soda.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 20
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Combat Spells + related
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 08:20:51 -0600 (MDT)
Peter David Boddy wrote:
|
|Peter writes:
|>
|> >Heh... sounds like us playing AD&D many years ago...
|> >
|> >"I take point."
|> >"No, _I_ take point."
|> >"No, _I'm_ going to take point. I'm a cavalier. It's my job to take
point."
|> >"Well I'm a fucking paladin, so step off you pansy cavalier."
|> >"My character pushes Jeff's character to the ground."
|> >"My character gets up and draws his sword with the intent to kill John's
|> >character."
|> >(other members of the group): "We just walk around them and continue down
|> >the passageway."
|> >
|>
|> So, how often did you trip every trap in the joint because of these stupid
|> fighter types?
|
|It happened often enough, we finally used their horses to gallop down the
|hallway triping all the traps. The spiked pit trap finally got them in
|the end.

One of the stunts I've seen done is to animate a recently killed monster
and send the corpse ahead of the characters. I suppose the same thing could
be done in SRII by control a guard and sending him/her down hallways and
through doors ahead of the PCs.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html~~~~~~
Message no. 21
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Combat Spells + related
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 20:18:51 +0200
At 16:20 Uhr 11.05.96, David Buehrer wrote:
>One of the stunts I've seen done is to animate a recently killed monster
>and send the corpse ahead of the characters. I suppose the same thing could
>be done in SRII by control a guard and sending him/her down hallways and
>through doors ahead of the PCs.
Uh, no!
You will not expect spiked pits in a corporate hallway, will you? The
"traps" Shadowrunner have to expect are mostly alarms. And an alarm would
trigger opposition. It is -in most cases, that is- totally irrelevant
WHO triggered the alarm, the resonse means trouble.

So there is no need for (sorry) polnish mine detectors.

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 22
From: Peter David Boddy <pdboddy@****.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: Combat Spells + related
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 17:48:52 EDT
Sascha Pabst writes:
>
> At 16:20 Uhr 11.05.96, David Buehrer wrote:
> >One of the stunts I've seen done is to animate a recently killed monster
> >and send the corpse ahead of the characters. I suppose the same thing could
> >be done in SRII by control a guard and sending him/her down hallways and
> >through doors ahead of the PCs.
> Uh, no!
> You will not expect spiked pits in a corporate hallway, will you? The
> "traps" Shadowrunner have to expect are mostly alarms. And an alarm would
> trigger opposition. It is -in most cases, that is- totally irrelevant
> WHO triggered the alarm, the resonse means trouble.
>

Think of control thoughts cast on a guard, having the guard let them
through doors, or giving passcodes to them, or distracting the drone with
the Vengence minigun which is about to give lethal injections of lead
poisoning.

Pete

Pete aka Spitfire
Test your might...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter David Boddy
Carleton University
Email address: pdboddy@****.carleton.ca
Email address: bx955@*******.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 23
From: "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.com>
Subject: Re: Combat Spells + related
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 04:36:12 -0500 (CDT)
On Fri, 10 May 1996, Peter wrote:

> >Heh... sounds like us playing AD&D many years ago...
> >
> >"I take point."
> >"No, _I_ take point."
> >"No, _I'm_ going to take point. I'm a cavalier. It's my job to take
point."
> >"Well I'm a fucking paladin, so step off you pansy cavalier."
> >"My character pushes Jeff's character to the ground."
> >"My character gets up and draws his sword with the intent to kill John's
> >character."
> >(other members of the group): "We just walk around them and continue down
> >the passageway."
> >
>
>
> So, how often did you trip every trap in the joint because of these stupid
> fighter types?
>

Not often, despite all odds... though when we were higher level we hit
some nasty traps... No, the guy who played the cavalier had been playing
AD&D for a very long time, and he knew a lot of the tricks. He'd do
every amount of precaution when going into a situation that could
conceivably have a trap. The one time he actually hit a trap was the one
time he forgot to check... Everyone was unconscious, and he was the only
person left standing after the fight. Bandage the party, open the
chest. Whoops., for got to break the lock open with his sword.... Poison
needle. Failed his save. We actually saved up cash to raise him from
the dead... then realized we hadn't done "Neutralize Poison" first...
Good thing he made his save the second time. =)



|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies
Message no. 24
From: "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.com>
Subject: Re: Combat Spells + related
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 05:06:03 -0500 (CDT)
On Sat, 11 May 1996, Gurth wrote:

> Dr. Bolthy von Schotz said on 9:12/10 May 96...
>
> > Heh... sounds like us playing AD&D many years ago...
> >
> > "I take point."
> > "No, _I_ take point."
> > "No, _I'm_ going to take point. I'm a cavalier. It's my job to take
point."
> > "Well I'm a fucking paladin, so step off you pansy cavalier."
> > "My character pushes Jeff's character to the ground."
> > "My character gets up and draws his sword with the intent to kill John's
> > character."
> > (other members of the group): "We just walk around them and continue down
> > the passageway."
>
> You mean it didn't go like: "Well, your character is a dwarf (or halfling
> or gnome), so you take point so we can shoot over your head when we run
> into monsters."?
>

Nope. In fact, I don't think I saw anyone play a dwarf until the Dwarf
Handbook came out, and then _everyone_ wanted to be a dwarf battlerager. =P


To stay on topic, they did the same thing in Shadowrun, sorta... when we
started playing that, one of them named their first character "Jeff
Hinderence" (in order to mock Mr. Jeff Henderson), and they were always
at each other's throats...



|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies
Message no. 25
From: "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.com>
Subject: Re: Combat Spells + related
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 05:15:59 -0500 (CDT)
On Sat, 11 May 1996, Sascha Pabst wrote:

> At 16:20 Uhr 11.05.96, David Buehrer wrote:
> >One of the stunts I've seen done is to animate a recently killed monster
> >and send the corpse ahead of the characters. I suppose the same thing could
> >be done in SRII by control a guard and sending him/her down hallways and
> >through doors ahead of the PCs.
> Uh, no!
> You will not expect spiked pits in a corporate hallway, will you? The
> "traps" Shadowrunner have to expect are mostly alarms. And an alarm would
> trigger opposition. It is -in most cases, that is- totally irrelevant
> WHO triggered the alarm, the resonse means trouble.
>
> So there is no need for (sorry) polnish mine detectors.
>

Until you're in a high security corporate installation, the doors on each
end get filled with seven-seven or Green Ring-3, (or, better yet, Red
Masque!!!)

Uh-oh.



|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies
Message no. 26
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Combat Spells + related
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 16:24:46 +0100 (BST)
|One of the stunts I've seen done is to animate a recently killed monster
|and send the corpse ahead of the characters.

Or stand back and let an unseen servant pick up the trapped item, set off
the trapped floor.....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |It has been widely reported in the newspapers, that |
|Andrew Halliwell | a so called "puppet" of the queen mother, would |
|Principal subjects in:-| appear on this weeks program. To the press, the |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts |public, and the many members of parlaiment who have |
|-----------------------|so kindly rung in to complain,we would like to admit|
| that this is an outragious and contemptable untruth perpatrated by us, to |
| bring the program into line with current government policy guidelines |
| Spitting Image have never made such a puppet, and were on holiday at the |
|time it wasn't made.... Thank you. (Spitting Image, when it was still funny)|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can still say FUCK! Americans can't|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 27
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Combat Spells + related
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 21:05:37 +0200
At 12:15 Uhr 12.05.96, Dr. Bolthy von Schotz wrote:
[snip: (No) need to have a Control-Action'ed guard as "mine detector"
in SR 'cause there are only|more alarms then traps]
>Until you're in a high security corporate installation, the doors on each
>end get filled with seven-seven or Green Ring-3, (or, better yet, Red
>Masque!!!)

But when you trigger these, they will a) spread and b) raise alarm.
Why bother a poor innocent guard to run into gas? Your characters
_should_ be equipped to handle this, the guard probably not.
I call this 'murder' and noone (well, nearly noone) from our group
would do such a thing.
Avoid "traps", don't raise alarm, and DO YOUR FRAGGIN' HOMEWORK!
Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 28
From: S.R.Bailleul@*********.salford.ac.uk
Subject: Re[2]: Combat Spells + related
Date: 17 May 96 17:44
-From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
-
-> From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>

-> There's a lot to be said for using other spells than the obvious --
-> instead of Manabolting the ganger, you can levitate him out of the window
-> (or *through* the window, eh Maurice? :),
-Works equally well for 'now Mr scientist no running away when we want
-to chat to you', 'come float over here'. Fortunately there are no
-longer 1sted style havn'e rolled one autosuccess, i have heard
-rumours of levitating buildings etc from other games before 2nded
-came out. Mind you if you can get the roll its a wonderful solution
-to traffic jams, police roadblocks etc. (in latter case use a high
-force spell so it doesn't get beaten up at an inopertune moment)

According to the argument of my friendly neighbouhood mage, Levitate Person is
actually one of the most powerful combat spells there are. Some assumptions:
a) the victim of this spell gets levitated the whole distance in the same
combat phase (or at least round) that the spell was cast.
b) the effect of this spell can therefore be considered a kind of acceleration.
c) this means, that the victim leaves the range of the spell at a speed that
would propell him for the total distance achieved by the spells successes.
d) if then a convenient wall can be found at an appropriaye distance...
d) take either the falling rules for accelerating somebody into a wall
([Distance/2] D) or the rules for damage by crashing with a vehicle ([Speed/10]
Level according to crash damage table >RBB)
e) assume Magic:6 , Levitate Person 5/7 (expendable fetish) cast with the help
of 5 Magicpool dice, t#4 gives 6 successes. Bit of karma takes it up
to 10 successes. 10*6m`m. Depending on whether you accept the drop or crash
damage either 6S-impact crash or 30D-impact drop. Now if we get an initiate
with a bit of a more powerful version of the spell...... Ouch.
I learned the bitter "truth", if you then accept it, of this spell on the
hands of a magicuser Banshee. (Oh yes, another of his arguments: The basic
Magic attribute fluctuates with the Essence value of the Banshee, then you add
on the Initiate level. Well, that was the point where I started disputing that
the Banshee has enough of an intellect or interest left to get so deep into
magic as to initiate, but it IS his favourite Ex-PC, so I left him his little
pleasure for that one run.) He claimed a Magic attribute of 15. Well. The spell
came my way with Force 12 and altogether 12 successes. ("Half the Ex-Karmapool
gets to be the Threat rating, right? That`s 9 then.") That left my poor Sammy
slamming into the wall at 180 m/combat round or 18D. (At least he accepted the
crash-scale.)
Well, what`s your opinion on the matter?
I can see a certain amount of logic in the argumentation, but I don`t quite
like the thought of it.

Sergej
Message no. 29
From: mbroadwa@*******.glenayre.com (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Combat Spells + related
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 13:37:32 -0500
>According to the argument of my friendly neighbouhood mage, Levitate Person is
>actually one of the most powerful combat spells there are. Some assumptions:
[snipped levitate person math]

[snipped banshee stuff]
>Well, what`s your opinion on the matter?
>I can see a certain amount of logic in the argumentation, but I don`t quite
>like the thought of it.
>
> Sergej

Well, how about the fact that levitate person is voluntary?

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"An object at rest cannot be stopped! YEAH, BABY! YEAH!" - The Evil Midnight
Bomber What Bombs at Midnight.
Message no. 30
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Combat Spells + related
Date: Sat, 18 May 96 19:07:11 +1030
>According to the argument of my friendly neighbouhood mage, Levitate
>Person is

Tell your friendly neighbourhood mage that Leviate Person is a voluntary
target spell.


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realized that a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent in finding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 31
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Combat Spells + related
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 12:05:11 +0100
Mike Broadwater said on 13:37/17 May 96...

> Well, how about the fact that levitate person is voluntary?

Not AFAIK... The target can try to hold onto something (if alive) or
someone can try to hold onto the target (whether it is alive or not), but
I don't believe it is said that you must *want* to be levitated for the
spell to work.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I can feel it coming back again.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
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Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
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Message no. 32
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Combat Spells + related
Date: Sat, 18 May 96 20:17 MET DST
At 18:37 Uhr 17.5.1996, Mike Broadwater wrote:
[Uses of Levitate person snipped]
>Well, how about the fact that levitate person is voluntary?
Well, it's wrong. See SRII, p. 157 on how Levitate Item/Person
works.

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 33
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Combat Spells + related
Date: Sat, 18 May 96 20:17 MET DST
At 8:37 Uhr 18.5.1996, Robert Watkins wrote:
>>According to the argument of my friendly neighbouhood mage, Levitate
>>Person is
>Tell your friendly neighbourhood mage that Leviate Person is a voluntary
>target spell.
Y-O-U--A-R-E--W-R-O-N-G !

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 34
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Combat Spells + related
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 13:32:29 -0500
>According to the argument of my friendly neighbouhood mage, Levitate Person is
>actually one of the most powerful combat spells there are.

Levitate Person requires a voluntary target...

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 35
From: "Gurth" <Gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Combat Spells + related
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 11:33:14 +0100
Sascha Pabst said on 20:17/18 May 96...

> >Well, how about the fact that levitate person is voluntary?
> Well, it's wrong. See SRII, p. 157 on how Levitate Item/Person
> works.

Whoever was writing that Shadowrun FAQ, maybe this is something to add:


DOES THE LEVITATE PERSON SPELL REQUIRE A VOLUNTARY TARGET?

No, it does not. The rules on page 157, SRII, do not mention that the
target must be voluntary, only that someone can try to hold onto items
that are being levitated out of their hands. Applying this the other way
around would mean that an involuntary target could try to hold onto a
solid object, such as a lamppost or a fence, to prevent flying away under
influence of the spell.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I can feel it coming back again.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
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Message no. 36
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Combat Spells + related
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 12:47:01 -0400 (EDT)
On Sat, 18 May 1996, Robert Watkins wrote:

> >According to the argument of my friendly neighbouhood mage, Levitate
> >Person is
>
> Tell your friendly neighbourhood mage that Leviate Person is a voluntary
> target spell.

Yes, but it doesn't *have* to be. Three of my favorite spells
are non-voluntary levitation, non-voluntary spectacle, and
non-touch-required mind probe. There's nothing stopping mages from
researching or modifying these spells if they're willing to pay the extra
drain to cast them. (F/2+4)D is not so bad considering you can tell what
"that guy way over there" has on his mind.

Marc
Message no. 37
From: Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject: Re[2]: Combat Spells + related
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 21:40:47 -0400 (EDT)
At 12:47 PM 5/20/96 -0400, you wrote:
>On Sat, 18 May 1996, Robert Watkins wrote:

> Yes, but it doesn't *have* to be. Three of my favorite spells
>are non-voluntary levitation, non-voluntary spectacle, and
>non-touch-required mind probe. There's nothing stopping mages from
>researching or modifying these spells if they're willing to pay the extra
>drain to cast them. (F/2+4)D is not so bad considering you can tell what
>"that guy way over there" has on his mind.

One of my favorite modified spells are Heal Myself (aka Personal Heal), Heal
Me (Heal one specific person), and Ranged Decrease Charisma -2 (or 3).

Granted, Heal me is risky since it's useless if the person it was designed
for dies, (*grin*) but if he has a close to zero essence, it helps casting
it at a higher force.

You wouldn't believe how useful Ranged Decrease Charisma -2 or 3 is against
ugly trolls and Orks either. *grin*

--
"I remember my first sexual encounter because I kept the recipe."
- Jeff Dahmer
Message no. 38
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Combat Spells + related
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 16:23:19 GMT
> From: Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>

> > Yes, but it doesn't *have* to be. Three of my favorite spells
> >are non-voluntary levitation,
Standard,

> > non-voluntary spectacle, and
Presumably useed to acuire 'nutralised but can still walk out of here
to save carrying unconcious bodies? as Control actions has a pesky
threshold

> >non-touch-required mind probe. There's nothing stopping mages from
> >researching or modifying these spells if they're willing to pay the extra
> >drain to cast them. (F/2+4)D is not so bad considering you can tell what
> >"that guy way over there" has on his mind.
>
Yes but thats 4D for force 5 even fetish exclusive, so handy but you
would have to be careful how you use it as that needs 16 dice for
average no drain (ok karma does wonders but is a finite resource)

> One of my favorite modified spells are Heal Myself (aka Personal Heal), Heal
> Me (Heal one specific person),
Bit expensive in karma really you might find bying more centering
more efficient generally as your only reason can be for very high
force, heal is 2's target for drain all the way to force 5. and 2S is
not that bad.

> and Ranged Decrease Charisma -2 (or 3).
>
Ah trying attribute = 0 = incap! nasty, very nasty. Sure treat those
munchkins with low charsimas a lesson for free (as it so useful
even without any around) while you are at it.

> You wouldn't believe how useful Ranged Decrease Charisma -2 or 3 is against
> ugly trolls and Orks either. *grin*
>
assuming the above comment is correct easily :)

Mark
Message no. 39
From: "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.com>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Combat Spells + related
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 10:28:22 -0500 (CDT)
On Sat, 18 May 1996, Robert Watkins wrote:

> >According to the argument of my friendly neighbouhood mage, Levitate
> >Person is
>
> Tell your friendly neighbourhood mage that Leviate Person is a voluntary
> target spell.


Eh... I'm, eh, lookin' at this, eh, spell... and don' say nothin' 'bout
no voluntary target, an' stuff. I'm thinkin' mebbe you don' need a
voluntary target, an', eh, stuff...


|\ /\ |\ | |\
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|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies

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