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Message no. 1
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: Combat timing (was Re: Heal/Treat Question)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 15:34:51 -0400
BrotherJustice50@***.com wrote:

> <SNIP>

> I always thought that a Combat phase, as in one person's turn of two Simple Actions
or two Complex Actions, was 3 seconds. So most combat is done in 9 to 12 seconds!???!!
MAN! I feel dumb I didn't realize this early, but that is ungodly!

Just imagine what it would look like with five or six people in combat, each with Wired-2
or -3, each firing two bursts per action. We've tried to conceptualize this, and it's
nasty. And if you're lucky, with an Initiative of over 30, that means that you're firing
SIX BURSTS in THREE SECONDS!!! That's 18 bullets you've fired! It's mind-boggling!

--
--Strago

All Hail Apathy! Or don't. Whatever. -abortion_engine

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN+ SRFF W+ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++ d+) gm+ M P
Message no. 2
From: Wolfchild nathan.olsen@*******.msus.edu
Subject: Combat timing (was Re: Heal/Treat Question)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 12:54:34 -0500 (CDT)
Strago <strago@***.com> wrote:

> Just imagine what it would look like with five or six people in combat,
> each with Wired-2 or -3, each firing two bursts per action. We've tried to
> conceptualize this, and it's nasty. And if you're lucky, with an
> Initiative of over 30, that means that you're firing SIX BURSTS in THREE
> SECONDS!!! That's 18 bullets you've fired! It's mind-boggling!

If everyone just stands out in the open and shoots each other combat
rarely lasts very long at all. *smirk* But seriously, a house-rule we have
over here is that most firearms *CANNOT* fire more than 10 rounds in a
combat turn. The gun is a mechanical device that has a maximum firing rate
defined by a set of physical laws that cannot be increased no matter how
fast the wielder is. The speed-freak still gets an incredible advantage in
combat even with this limitation. While a 1-action character must use FA
fire to shoot 10 bullets (lots of recoil) whereas a 4-action character can
divide the same 10 bullets into 1 BF and 7 SA shots (much less
recoil), or any other combination of SA and BF firing modes. The firing
rate is the same for the two characters but the one with more actions is
better able to compensate for the recoil. Does that make sense?

I almost forgot. We also have a rule that spellcasting, astral projection,
and spirit conjuring all require a full combat turn to complete.



Wolfchild - "Life ain't easy for a troll named Sue."
--
"Quin tu istanc orationem hinc veterem atque|"Let us spend one day as
antiquam amoves?" -Plautus, Miles Gloriosus|deliberately as Nature. . .
--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--|and not be thrown off the
"There are nights when the wolves are silent|track by every nutshell and
and only the moon howls." -George Carlin |mosquito's wing that falls on
Wolfchild <nathan.olsen@*******.msus.edu> |the rails." -H.D.Thoreau
Message no. 3
From: Barbie LeVile barbie@********.de
Subject: Combat timing (was Re: Heal/Treat Question)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 20:11:54 +0200
Wolfchild wrote:
>
> Strago <strago@***.com> wrote:
>
> > Just imagine what it would look like with five or six people in combat,
> > each with Wired-2 or -3, each firing two bursts per action. We've tried to
> > conceptualize this, and it's nasty. And if you're lucky, with an
> > Initiative of over 30, that means that you're firing SIX BURSTS in THREE
> > SECONDS!!! That's 18 bullets you've fired! It's mind-boggling!
>
> If everyone just stands out in the open and shoots each other combat
> rarely lasts very long at all. *smirk* But seriously, a house-rule we have
> over here is that most firearms *CANNOT* fire more than 10 rounds in a
> combat turn. The gun is a mechanical device that has a maximum firing rate
> defined by a set of physical laws that cannot be increased no matter how
> fast the wielder is.

Well, you just forgot that the actual firerate of SR weapons is much less
then of RL weapons.
>From a logical POV your reasoning is wrong.

--
Barbie - Prayers are like junkmail for Jesus

"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Führer" - Adolf Hitler

barbie@********.de http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie/index.html

SRGC 0.22: SR1 SR2+++ SR3--- h++++ b++ b--- UB++ IE- RN+ SR_D+++ W++
dk sh++++ ri++++ sa+++ ad+++ m+++(x+++) gm++ m+++ P+++(P*)
Message no. 4
From: Wolfchild nathan.olsen@*******.msus.edu
Subject: Combat timing (was Re: Heal/Treat Question)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 14:55:59 -0500 (CDT)
Wolfchild wrote:
>>
>> If everyone just stands out in the open and shoots each other combat
>> rarely lasts very long at all. *smirk* But seriously, a house-rule we
>> have over here is that most firearms *CANNOT* fire more than 10 rounds
>> in a combat turn. The gun is a mechanical device that has a maximum
>> firing rate defined by a set of physical laws that cannot be increased
>> no matter how fast the wielder is.
>
> Well, you just forgot that the actual firerate of SR weapons is much
> less then of RL weapons.
> From a logical POV your reasoning is wrong.

I don't follow your reasoning but that could be because I'm not a gearhead
(somebody shoot me if I ever become one). I just can't seem to wrap my
mind around how a fast character, say with 3 actions, can possibly fire
more bullets in FA mode than a character with only 1 action. Does the
first character keep his/her trigger-finger pressed down faster? *shrug*
YMMV I guess.



Wolfchild - "Life ain't easy for a troll named Sue."
--
"Quin tu istanc orationem hinc veterem atque|"Let us spend one day as
antiquam amoves?" -Plautus, Miles Gloriosus|deliberately as Nature. . .
--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--|and not be thrown off the
"There are nights when the wolves are silent|track by every nutshell and
and only the moon howls." -George Carlin |mosquito's wing that falls on
Wolfchild <nathan.olsen@*******.msus.edu> |the rails." -H.D.Thoreau
Message no. 5
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: Combat timing (was Re: Heal/Treat Question)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 13:14:26 -0700
From: "Wolfchild" <nathan.olsen@*******.msus.edu>
> > Well, you just forgot that the actual firerate of SR weapons is much
> > less then of RL weapons.
> > From a logical POV your reasoning is wrong.
>
> I don't follow your reasoning but that could be because I'm not a gearhead
> (somebody shoot me if I ever become one). I just can't seem to wrap my
> mind around how a fast character, say with 3 actions, can possibly fire
> more bullets in FA mode than a character with only 1 action. Does the
> first character keep his/her trigger-finger pressed down faster? *shrug*
> YMMV I guess.

You could always look at it as if the character with more actions is simply
capable of making more *accurate* shots with his weapon. Sure that one
action guy could spray a lot of rounds but they are not going to hit
anything reasonable.

The multi-action dude is in a good firing position, is "in-tune" with his
weapon, or is touched by the Force. Whatever. In SR terms he gets to fire
more while the system edits out the low-action guys additional firing
attempts since he would not hit anything.

Someone noted that SR firearms have low fire rates compared to real weapons
and thats very true. You could shoot off several 3 round burst in 3 seconds
on most modern assault rifles. Now, you're probably not going to hit
anything. A multi action guy just seems to be able to for whatever reason.

If you want to add a small bit of extra wierdness allow people to take
additional actions after everyone else (in the original Initiative order) at
+4 to all target numbers for each action taken (cumulative). Optionally you
can double their original Initiative stat to see how many additional actions
they could possibly take. Of course this just makes multi-action, high
Initiative killing machines even more efficient.

YMMV. I don't consider it necessary to gearhead the combat system as it
stands since it would break the game.
Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'
Message no. 6
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Combat timing (was Re: Heal/Treat Question)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:55:38 +0200
According to Wolfchild, at 14:55 on 16 Apr 00, the word on the street
was...

> I don't follow your reasoning but that could be because I'm not a gearhead
> (somebody shoot me if I ever become one). I just can't seem to wrap my
> mind around how a fast character, say with 3 actions, can possibly fire
> more bullets in FA mode than a character with only 1 action. Does the
> first character keep his/her trigger-finger pressed down faster? *shrug*
> YMMV I guess.

If you think of it as firing a ten-round burst and then releasing the
trigger, rather than as holding down the trigger for the entire turn, it
does make sense (to a certain level).

Limiting the number of rounds that can be fired to 10 per turn is also
fairly unrealistic, IMHO -- if you assume those 10 rounds would take the
entire turn to fire, you're looking at a ROF of 200 rounds per minute.
That's roughly a third of what most automatic weapons do IRL. If you want
to set a limit, I'd suggest three times the maximum FA rate of fire:
that's 30 rounds per turn for normal weapons, 45 for miniguns, or 54 for
super machine guns.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"There are millions of people who've got nothing to say to each other,
and who do it on mobile phones" --Ian Hislop, on Have I Got News For You
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 7
From: Wavy Davy ctysmd@***.leeds.ac.uk
Subject: Combat timing (was Re: Heal/Treat Question)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:46:58 +0100 (BST)
On Sun, 16 Apr 2000, Wolfchild wrote:

> Wolfchild wrote:
> >>
> >> If everyone just stands out in the open and shoots each other combat
> >> rarely lasts very long at all. *smirk* But seriously, a house-rule we
> >> have over here is that most firearms *CANNOT* fire more than 10 rounds
> >> in a combat turn. The gun is a mechanical device that has a maximum
> >> firing rate defined by a set of physical laws that cannot be increased
> >> no matter how fast the wielder is.
> >
> > Well, you just forgot that the actual firerate of SR weapons is much
> > less then of RL weapons.
> > From a logical POV your reasoning is wrong.

IIRC, the average ROF of an SMG is 600 rounds a a minute, which is ten
rounds a second, giving us a possible 30 rounds fired in a SR 3 second
round. And that is now a days, who knows how cyclic rates may improve
in 60 years.

> I don't follow your reasoning but that could be because I'm not a gearhead
> (somebody shoot me if I ever become one). I just can't seem to wrap my
> mind around how a fast character, say with 3 actions, can possibly fire
> more bullets in FA mode than a character with only 1 action. Does the
> first character keep his/her trigger-finger pressed down faster? *shrug*
> YMMV I guess.

But can a slower character fire the same number of *aimed* bursts as a
faster one. I don't think so. Sure, if they both depressed the trigger
for the same amount of time, they should fire the same number of
rounds, but not aim them as quickly. However, because of the SR
initiative system (hallowed be its name) being the way it is, this is
not represented too well. If you're really bothered by it all, you
could introduce a house rule limiting the max ROF for any weapon in
one combat turn. Or as me and my group are experimenting with, you
could use a cyberpunk style system, where everyone has one action, in
order of initiative.

--
Wavy Davy (who shares wins)
...If you're robbing a bank, and your pants suddenly fall down, I think it's
okay to laugh, and to let the hostages laugh too, because life is funny.
Message no. 8
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Combat timing (was Re: Heal/Treat Question)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 19:28:14 +0200
According to Wavy Davy, at 17:46 on 17 Apr 00, the word on the street
was...

> IIRC, the average ROF of an SMG is 600 rounds a a minute, which is ten
> rounds a second, giving us a possible 30 rounds fired in a SR 3 second
> round. And that is now a days, who knows how cyclic rates may improve
> in 60 years.

There's no reason to assume it would be much higher then. Higher rates of
fire have been possible for almost as long as automatic weapons exist, but
above certain rates you're wasting more ammo than is useful. For example,
the WWII MG 42 machinegun (and its modern-day descendant, the MG 3) fired
at some 1200 rpm -- 20 rounds per second, yes -- which made it hard to
keep supplied with ammo, but which was intentionally kept that way because
of the (apparent) psychological side-effects from the sound it made. Thus,
if a weapon like that could be built 60 years ago, but most current
equivalents fire at half that rate, it seems logical that in another 60
years, the ROF won't increase markedly.

> But can a slower character fire the same number of *aimed* bursts as a
> faster one. I don't think so. Sure, if they both depressed the trigger
> for the same amount of time, they should fire the same number of
> rounds, but not aim them as quickly. However, because of the SR
> initiative system (hallowed be its name) being the way it is, this is
> not represented too well. If you're really bothered by it all, you
> could introduce a house rule limiting the max ROF for any weapon in
> one combat turn.

Something you could bolt onto this idea, is to allow suppressive fire as a
free action. Though it'll probably make firefights a lot more deadly, it
will allow all characters to fire up to that maximum ROF per turn.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"There are millions of people who've got nothing to say to each other,
and who do it on mobile phones" --Ian Hislop, on Have I Got News For You
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

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