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Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: ewok slayer <jclegg@******.FSC.MASS.EDU>
Subject: Computers and MP
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 1994 21:14:06 EDT
Ok, here is the main point of my question. How much information
can be held in one (1) MP? This affects a lot of events in my game. I try
to structure them around a plot, but sometime my players try to set things up.
How much would a word preccsor take up. Can you fit unlimited info into 1 MP?
Or does it take some? These are the wuestions that modern man needs to know.

* Darkstar
Message no. 2
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Computers and MP
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 01:28:11 -0500
Well, you can find some references to things in the source books:

SRII
Eye Camera:
1 second will take up 1Mp. I assume this is VERY high res (like
able to magnify several times. Like read the letters on a
postage stamp at 500 yards without vision magnification on the
eye, but just by magnifying the image)

It doesn't list anything for the ears, but I played it as
1 minute of 10x CD-quality (441,000 Khz) audio for 1Mp of
memory. But that is ANYTHING but official, and I just used that
frequency because some guy in mmy group (at that time) wanted to
know how clear it was, so I made somehting up. (BTW: that would
be about 26.5 megabytes.)

SSC:
Video Link
6Mp will record 1 minute of low-resolution video (probably figure
that is is of the quality you'd see on the nightly news)


____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> Political Correctness is
\/ Finger for PGP 2.3a Public Key <=> P.C. for "Thought Police"
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n-(---) h+(*) f+ g+ w++ t++ r++ y+(*)
Message no. 3
From: Jai Tao <jdfalk@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Computers and MP
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 02:29:45 -0400
On Wed, 13 Apr 1994, Robert A. Hayden wrote:

> SSC:
> Video Link
> 6Mp will record 1 minute of low-resolution video (probably figure
> that is is of the quality you'd see on the nightly news)
>
Any respectable (i.e., better than a college station) nightly news
broadcast using NTSC video (the U.S. standard) will be what's now
considered "normal resolution," 400 to 1000 scan lines (your VHS machine
records 250-350 lines, while my professional SVHS camcorder records
450-500 lines.) Now, these lines are _not_ exactly equivalent to computer
monitor resolution; I'm not sure about the technical explanation.
In my educated opinion, low-resolution video, even in 2054, would
be around 500 scan lines. Since it takes up so much less space than
high-rez video, its probably at only 10 or 15 frames per second, as
opposed to the modern standard of 30 fps.
Sorry if most of you don't care, but as I've said before, this is
my field.
Message no. 4
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Computers and MP
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 16:55:16 +1000
Jai Tao wrote:

> In my educated opinion, low-resolution video, even in 2054, would
> be around 500 scan lines. Since it takes up so much less space than
> high-rez video, its probably at only 10 or 15 frames per second, as
> opposed to the modern standard of 30 fps.
>

> Sorry if most of you don't care, but as I've said before, this is
> my field.
>


I disagree, quite strongly. Think ISDN, HDTV, immersive VR. PAL is 625
lines, and even such a small improvement on the NTSC standard makes people
cringe when they have to watch NTSC instead.

I don't mean to be rude, but do you read much about what's going on nearby
your field?

Sure, you need to make up some numbers; but there's usually a quality/memory
tradeoff. I apologise for not having enough time now to make some solid
suggestions.

luke
Message no. 5
From: J Gavigan <csc086@*****.LANCS.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Computers and MP
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 08:03:19 +0100
> > Video Link
> > 6Mp will record 1 minute of low-resolution video (probably figure
> > that is is of the quality you'd see on the nightly news)
> >
> Any respectable (i.e., better than a college station) nightly news
> broadcast using NTSC video (the U.S. standard) will be what's now
> considered "normal resolution," 400 to 1000 scan lines (your VHS machine
> records 250-350 lines, while my professional SVHS camcorder records
> 450-500 lines.) Now, these lines are _not_ exactly equivalent to computer
> monitor resolution; I'm not sure about the technical explanation.

Is anyone? :)
Could we say that Digital Betacam is about 800-900 lines, then?

> In my educated opinion, low-resolution video, even in 2054, would
> be around 500 scan lines. Since it takes up so much less space than
> high-rez video, its probably at only 10 or 15 frames per second, as
> opposed to the modern standard of 30 fps.

No reason for it not to go at 30 fps, in my opinion...
Or at 900 lines, either, but anyway.
Here are a few calculations of mine:

Quote from some magazine that I wrote down:
A single uncompressed 24 bit image 240*180 pixels consumes 130k

That's at present, with noral rates of this and that, etc.

Ok, so 240x180 is about a quarter of a 15 inch screen.

130 x 4 = 520 kilobytes for one frame.
30 fps => 520 x 30 = 15.6 Meg.

Up the resolution a bit, and we're probably talking about
20 - 30 Meg for one second's worth of video.


Go to high-quality video, and I reckon it could be in the region of
50-60Meg. Perhaps even as high as a hundred.

*shrug*

I dunno - I think one thing we need to remember is the capacity of
optical chips, that can be written and erased with a flash of light -
pretty fast access, if you think about it.

Pesonally, I think that a Mp is probably over 200 Meg.

*shrug*
Jackin' out...

Dodger
Message no. 6
From: J Gavigan <csc086@*****.LANCS.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Computers and MP
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 08:13:03 +0100
> Sure, you need to make up some numbers; but there's usually a quality/memory
> tradeoff.

That's right. Take the example of audio. It's simpler.
Compressing audio signals to fit onto, say a Sony Minidisc, means that you
lose a certain amount of quality. Which is why the higher the ratio of

memory used over length of sound sample

the better the quality of the sound you're going to hear, basically.
Compression works on the notion that it you've got one pixel, say, for which
the color deifiniton is xxxxxxxx0xxxxxxxxx0xxx, they might remove a few x's,
on the assumption that you're not going to miss it anyway.
HOWEVER! If you're getting into high magnification, as Robert mentioned, then
you are talking about needing loadsa memory to store the massively-high res
image. Thus my assertion that a high-res video in 55 could take up as much as
100 Meg/second.

Remember the bit in Bladerunner where he sticks the photo into the TV-thingy,
and it magnifies a bit of the photo - actually, the bit it magnifies is
taken from the reflection of it from a mirror a room away from the camera.
Imagine taking a photo, and being able to read something that is preactically
three rooms away...

That's the kind of resolution we are talking about here, I feel.

Jacking' out...

Dodger
Message no. 7
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Computers and MP
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 10:35:28 -0400
>>>>> "ewok" == ewok slayer <jclegg@******.FSC.MASS.EDU>
writes:

ewok> Ok, here is the main point of my question. How much
ewok> information can be held in one (1) MP?

A lot. I mean a /whole/ lot. Ok, twist my arm... it's not that much.

<sigh>

Alright already. As much or as little as you want.

As has been repeatedly stated, there is no real-world correlation between
Megapulses and contemporary storage.

|||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ||||
| Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> WWW Page: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox |
| I don't care; I want the Green Ranger's flute! |
|||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ||||
Message no. 8
From: Timothy Skirvin <tskirvin@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Computers and MP
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 11:43:11 -0500
A Mp, 200 meg?

Well, that's about 4000 megs of text that was deleted in Paranormal
Animals of North America...in one file...

And kilopulses are now being used. They seem to make more sense.
Still, that's a lot...

----------------------- "Well, you see, they took the Bible literally.
Tim Skirvin Adam and Eve, the snake and the apple...took
(tskirvin@ it word for word. Unfortunately, their
superdec.uni.uiuc.edu) version had a misprint."
----------------------- - Rimmer, Red Dwarf (The Last Day)
Message no. 9
From: Jai Tao <jdfalk@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Computers and MP
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 13:50:16 -0400
On Wed, 13 Apr 1994, J Gavigan (Dodger) wrote:

> I dunno - I think one thing we need to remember is the capacity of
> optical chips, that can be written and erased with a flash of light -
> pretty fast access, if you think about it.
>
> Pesonally, I think that a Mp is probably over 200 Meg.
>
Yeah, makes sense -- but, we've gotta remember three things.
(1) It might not be binary digital storage like we're used to.
(2) FASA doesn't always know what they're talking about when it
comes to computer technology.
(3) For most campaigns, it doesn't matter at all.
Message no. 10
From: Micah Levy <M.Levy@**.UCL.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Computers and MP
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 20:27:23 +0100
> On Wed, 13 Apr 1994, J Gavigan (Dodger) wrote:
>
> > I dunno - I think one thing we need to remember is the capacity of
> > optical chips, that can be written and erased with a flash of light -
> > pretty fast access, if you think about it.
> >
> > Pesonally, I think that a Mp is probably over 200 Meg.
> >
> Yeah, makes sense -- but, we've gotta remember three things.
> (1) It might not be binary digital storage like we're used to.

This seems most unlikely- Put quite simply, although the format of any storage
media will be very different, unless biological computers are in the pipeline,
digital storage is here to stay. For that matter, binary is the most efficient
system to use, digitally- what can be simpler than an on-off state?
Therefore, assuming that there can be any other method is relying on there
being a technological advance which neither exists, has been conceived or
mentioned in any Shadowrun history.
However, assuming that technology in Shadowrun is at a stage where a Matrix is
possible, and more to the point, that cyberdecks can run it, is also assuming
the existence of HUMUNGOUS processing power on chips. Therefore, any
assumption of a correlation between mp and megabytes (assuming that binary
storage is being used) would be nugatory.


> (2) FASA doesn't always know what they're talking about when it
> comes to computer technology.

What do you mean, always? :-)


> (3) For most campaigns, it doesn't matter at all.

What do you mean, most? :-)


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|| Micah Levy //Yeah! I'm on the web at last! ||
|| Department of Computer Science ||
|| University College London ||
|| ||
|| http://www.cs.ucl.ac.uk/people/malevy.html ||
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|| GCS d--@ -p+ c++ l(!) u++ e+ m- s n+ h* f g+(-) w t+ r++ y? ||
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Message no. 11
From: Micah Levy <M.Levy@**.UCL.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Computers and MP
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 20:50:40 +0100
> Ok, here is the main point of my question. How much information
> can be held in one (1) MP? This affects a lot of events in my game.

Why not assume that

> How much would a word preccsor take up.

Who would use a word processor in 2055? However, if you are referring to plain
text files which would be accessed from the matrix, it is quite reasonable to
assume that because they contain so much secondary and tertiary information
regarding the way that they are displayed and in which they can be manipulated
by matrix users that they would take up a significant amount of space. On the
other hand, though, any files which coulf be kept on the personal computers of
2055 might also consume an equally large amount of storage as part of their
format in the event that they might need to be transferred to another system
through the matrix which would require matrix iconography (!).

>Can you fit unlimited info into 1 MP?

Obviously not, or there would be no other storage units than the 1mp chip...or
the 1/2 mp chip for that matter.
Why not assume that a virtually unlimited amount of textual data can be stored
but since any transfer of data through the matrix would require matrix icons,
transforming them into a version which would include matrix data would be
available through a utility supplied with every personal computer (possibly a
built-in function) but the resultant program would then take on matrix
proportions. To get a rough idea of how much this would be for text, look at
the Rigger's Black Book under the MBT where it quotes a number of mp deleted -
eg: 37.8 mp deleted, make a rough guess as to how much this actually is, or
just assume 30 mp a page and there you are (or not).




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|| Micah Levy //Yeah! I'm on the web at last! ||
|| Department of Computer Science ||
|| University College London ||
|| ||
|| http://www.cs.ucl.ac.uk/people/malevy.html ||
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|| GCS d--@ -p+ c++ l(!) u++ e+ m- s n+ h* f g+(-) w t+ r++ y? ||
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Message no. 12
From: Micah Levy <M.Levy@**.UCL.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Computers and MP
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 20:58:35 +0100
> In my educated opinion, low-resolution video, even in 2054, would
> be around 500 scan lines. Since it takes up so much less space than
> high-rez video, its probably at only 10 or 15 frames per second, as
> opposed to the modern standard of 30 fps.
> -Jai Tao

Ah, but the evening news would almost certainly be trid.
So in the mp discussion, that would probably take up much more space than a
simple video recording.
For that matter, (and correct me if I'm talking rubbish here), it seems
reasonable to assume that technology capable of producing trid and simsense
would also be capable of running video on a trid machine, possibly converting
it, at the time, so I don't think scan lines would come into it since there
would be (I guess) 3 lasers doing what the electron gun basically does now.


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|| Micah Levy //Yeah! I'm on the web at last! ||
|| Department of Computer Science ||
|| University College London ||
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|| http://www.cs.ucl.ac.uk/people/malevy.html ||
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|| GCS d--@ -p+ c++ l(!) u++ e+ m- s n+ h* f g+(-) w t+ r++ y? ||
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Message no. 13
From: J Gavigan <csc086@*****.LANCS.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Computers and MP
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 21:34:07 +0100
> Yeah, makes sense -- but, we've gotta remember three things.
> (1) It might not be binary digital storage like we're used to.

Hmmm.. Having looked at the theory put forward by Robert, about
the three colors... Today, we got 1 (yes) or 0 (no), which has to
do with, say a photocell either receiving a burst of light, or not
receiving a burst of light.
When you have 3 colors, you have FOUR possibilities:

1) Nothing.
2) Green.
3) Red.
4) Blue.

I dunno what the advantages of this are, but...

> (2) FASA doesn't always know what they're talking about when it
> comes to computer technology.

You're kidding me, right! ;)

> (3) For most campaigns, it doesn't matter at all.

Yeah, but it's fun to talk and argue about it, isn't it? :)


Jacking' out...

Dodger
Message no. 14
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Computers and MP
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 09:20:45 +0930
>
> A Mp, 200 meg?
>
Where did you get this figure??

> Well, that's about 4000 megs of text that was deleted in Paranormal
>Animals of North America...in one file...
>
Well, remember that they aren't talking just about text. It's a
"multimedia, virtual reality" experience which probably chews up more
disk space than Apple's Quicktime movies!

> And kilopulses are now being used. They seem to make more sense.
>Still, that's a lot...
>
If you want a guess at how big a MP is... record a sound file lasting x
seconds. Then look up in ShadowBeat what it'll be in MP.


--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers are around at 9 am,
it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 15
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Computers and MP
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 20:18:58 -0500
On Wed, 13 Apr 1994, J Gavigan wrote:

> Hmmm.. Having looked at the theory put forward by Robert, about
> the three colors... Today, we got 1 (yes) or 0 (no), which has to
> do with, say a photocell either receiving a burst of light, or not
> receiving a burst of light.
> When you have 3 colors, you have FOUR possibilities:
>
> 1) Nothing.
> 2) Green.
> 3) Red.
> 4) Blue.

Uh, reread mine again. I suggested all three lasers combining to
colourize one bit, which would give you eight states, instead of 4.

> I dunno what the advantages of this are, but...

Well, let me put it into today's terms. It takes 8 bits to make a
character on today's computer. Using an eight-state bit, you could
ccreate a character in only 3 bits (and that would be up to a 512
character alphabet).

> Yeah, but it's fun to talk and argue about it, isn't it? :)

No

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> Political Correctness is
\/ Finger for PGP 2.3a Public Key <=> P.C. for "Thought Police"
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 1.0.1) GAT d- -p+(---) c++(++++) l++ u++ e+/* m++(*)@ s-/++
n-(---) h+(*) f+ g+ w++ t++ r++ y+(*)
Message no. 16
From: "Brian W. Allison" <bwa550s@***.SMSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Computers and MP
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 21:02:38 -0500
On Wed, 13 Apr 1994, J Gavigan wrote:

> > Yeah, makes sense -- but, we've gotta remember three things.
> > (1) It might not be binary digital storage like we're used to.
>
> Hmmm.. Having looked at the theory put forward by Robert, about
> the three colors... Today, we got 1 (yes) or 0 (no), which has to
> do with, say a photocell either receiving a burst of light, or not
> receiving a burst of light.
> When you have 3 colors, you have FOUR possibilities:
>
> 1) Nothing.
> 2) Green.
> 3) Red.
> 4) Blue.
>

If you're sending light pulses, why restrict them to 3 colors? Why not do
the frequency division multiplexing (as opposed to time division
multiplexing) and use a 5 nanometer gap between 'slots' 5 nanometers
wide? That would be 10 nm's for each slot and the overhead room.

How many nm's in the visible light range?

Of course I'm assuming that we'll have more than 3-phase multiphase
lasing materials in 2050... Since we already have multi-frequency lasers now.

Then each pulse could have (nm's in visible range)/10 different possible
values. If there were say... 10,240 (*grin*) nanometers in visible light
then we'd have a kilobit per pulse. But fourier compression would allow
for some gain, if done with optics instead of binary (or k-nary) logic
circuits. Optics doesn't have the rounding problems that binary has
either... to my knowledge.

Any physics people out there?

------------------------------------------
Brian (bwa550s@***.smsu.edu)
Michael Crawford = sing.god
(GEEK CODE) GCS d@ -p+ c++++!!!!! l u+(++) e+(++) m@(+/++/---) s@/@
!n--- h*(+) f+(?) !g(20/12) w+ t+ r+(++) y?
Message no. 17
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Computers and MP
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 23:07:42 -0500
I chose red, green, and blue because those are the three primary colours
for computers, that's all.

Of course, this conversation is no longer SR-relevant, so we'd better
stop it before DOOM deletes me.

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> Political Correctness is
\/ Finger for PGP 2.3a Public Key <=> P.C. for "Thought Police"
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 1.0.1) GAT d- -p+(---) c++(++++) l++ u++ e+/* m++(*)@ s-/++
n-(---) h+(*) f+ g+ w++ t++ r++ y+(*)
Message no. 18
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Computers and MP
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 14:24:43 +0930
>
>I chose red, green, and blue because those are the three primary colours
>for computers, that's all.
>
>Of course, this conversation is no longer SR-relevant, so we'd better
>stop it before DOOM deletes me.
>
On the other hand... In ShadowTech, it states that the chemical used to
create optical chips has two states: Green, or Red.

So we're back in a binary situation, anyway.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers are around at 9 am,
it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 19
From: Timothy Skirvin <tskirvin@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Computers and MP
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 07:54:24 -0500
Somebody said the 200 Megs to 1 Mp figure here (I don't remember who...
oh, and my quoting is only when I'm at home, by the way). I don't agree with
it.

And how do you have multimedia in a discussion of whether something's
sentient or not (it was Deborah B, I think, the one that always argued about
sentience...)

----------------------- "Well, you see, they took the Bible literally.
Tim Skirvin Adam and Eve, the snake and the apple...took
(tskirvin@ it word for word. Unfortunately, their
superdec.uni.uiuc.edu) version had a misprint."
----------------------- - Rimmer, Red Dwarf (The Last Day)
Message no. 20
From: Schnood <cdjworks@******.DIGEX.NET>
Subject: Re: Computers and MP
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 17:23:13 -0400
>On the other hand... In ShadowTech, it states that the chemical used to
>create optical chips has two states: Green, or Red.

Well, it seems people are forgetting one minor thing. Where the SRII
books is talking about hermetic libraries, it says how many optical chips
or compact disks they would take. It says that a CD holds 100Mp. Now,
the most I've ever seen a CD hold was about 600 megs. This would lead me
to believe that a megapulse is about 6-7 megs. How does this sound?

---
Instant karma is going to get him if I don't get him first. --U2
Message no. 21
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Computers and MP
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 17:51:32 -0400
>>>>> "Schnood" == Schnood <cdjworks@******.DIGEX.NET>
writes:

Schnood> Now, the most I've ever seen a CD hold was about 600 megs. This would
Schnood> lead me to believe that a megapulse is about 6-7 megs. How does this
Schnood> sound?

Incorrect. Sony is experimenting with blue semiconductor lasers (we're using
red and IR today). They expect an storage increase of upwards of 100 times
what we have now by 1998 or so.

Not to mention data compression techniques :).

Face it, you aren't going to find a real-world analogue to Shadowrun's
Megapuls, so stop trying.

\||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |||/
== Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> WWW Page: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox ==
== ...and I didn't even need pants! --Dilbert [Scott Adams] ==
/||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |||\
Message no. 22
From: Daniel Paddock <D_PADDOCK@****.LVC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Computers and MP
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 18:02:58 -0400
>Well, it seems people are forgetting one minor thing. Where the SRII
>books is talking about hermetic libraries, it says how many optical chips
>or compact disks they would take. It says that a CD holds 100Mp. Now,
>the most I've ever seen a CD hold was about 600 megs. This would lead me to
>believe that a megapulse is about 6-7 megs. How does this sound?

Well that depends on wether or not the CD is the same standard as it is today.
It is currently possible to store an entire uncompressed movie on one CD.
However a normal Laseer Disc player couldn't read it since it isn't encoded
the same as a normal consumer LD. I'd imagine that it is totally possible
that a CD in SR could hold around 10000mb making an mp about 100mb.



Dan Paddock
Message no. 23
From: Doc_X <northrup@*****.CSC.USF.EDU>
Subject: Re: Computers and MP (fwd)
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 1994 14:41:03 -0400
On Wed, 13 Apr 1994, Brian W. Allison wrote:

> Any physics people out there?

Yes there are. Now the question becomes "How many physics people want to
take time away from their end of the semester catching up on all of their
procrastination to ponder advances in computers over the next 60 years
via e-mail?" Myabe via IRC, but, alas, not over e-mail.

ObShamelessPlug: Undernet needs women! and men for that matter. e-mail
me for a list of undernet IRC servers.

*****************************************************************************
* Dylan Northrup <northrup@*****.cas.usf.edu> * I'm not a computer genius *
*********************************************** I just play one in the lab *
* "It's the ones who persist for the sake of a kiss... " -- George Michael *
*****************************************************************************

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Thwap!