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Message no. 1
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Concealability
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 01:08:31 +1000
Paul Finch writes:

> The thing is that in general terms(FASA name sake for rules!) the main idea
> is how well you can hide the darn thing. Not where or how you do it!

I can't see your point (I must be thick or something :-)). To me "how well
you can hide it" equates to "is it easy to hide", which is determiend by
such things as size and shape etc. If you can hide it well, then it will
probably be small and easy to conceal, and vice versa. Seems logical to me.

> Any beter ways to explain it?

Other than the "FASA knows shit about guns" point, not really. But I can't
really see how an Ares Predator II (a heavy pistol with a clip of 15) can be
hidden more easily than an Ingram Smartgun (an SMG with a clip of 32), and
is as easy to hide as a Defiance T-250 (a shotgun).

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 2
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Concealability
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 10:20:16 +0000
Damion said
> .. I can't really see how an Ares Predator II (a heavy pistol with a
> clip of 15) can be hidden more easily than an Ingram Smartgun (an SMG
> with a clip of 32), and is as easy to hide as a Defiance T-250 (a shotgun).

Have you seen the size of the original Ingram Mac-10, compared to some
modern pistols, like a desert Eagle, it's tiny. Mind you, I agree,
FASA's ingram with the suppressor on the front is a lot larger than the
Mac-10. If youstripped the supressor off it, and had the wire-frame stock
folded, it should be as concealable as a light pistol.

The T-250 comes in two models, the shjort-barrel should be about
as large as an Uzi, but with a shorter Magazine and the rifle-sized
shotgun should have the full ammo rating listed.

Change the concealabilities, it makes a lot more sense.

Phil (Runs-With-The-Pack)
Message no. 3
From: Paul Finch <pfinch@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Concealability
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 18:40:20 -0700
On Wed, 15 Mar 1995, Damion Milliken wrote:

> Paul Finch writes:
>
> > The thing is that in general terms(FASA name sake for rules!) the main idea
> > is how well you can hide the darn thing. Not where or how you do it!
>
> I can't see your point (I must be thick or something :-)). To me "how well
> you can hide it" equates to "is it easy to hide", which is determiend
by
> such things as size and shape etc. If you can hide it well, then it will
> probably be small and easy to conceal, and vice versa. Seems logical to me.

You must not have much weaponss training.:) Let me try it another way.
Ok hows this (I thought about this and it might help), if you are looking
for a hand gun in a pocket (common place for a pistol to be hidden), and
you fail to note the slight angled crease under the guys armpit. You
dont see the remington roomsweeper (last place one would normaly think
to hide a shotgun). Again, you are looking for a handgun in a shoulder
holter. The roomsweeper, held horizontily on the dudes back, in a
special rig get mised. So psychology plays a little when you are trying
to hide something. Does this help?

Edge

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They are infinitely patient, prefering to minimize risks to themelves and
suffer a thousand defeats if they gain the final victory. Still, they are
diabolically clever, and devious in the extream. If they fail militarily,
they infiltrate and corrupt. Now they are on the march once more, and the
more they are set back, the more determined, devious and dangerous they
become. Curr ahee
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Peterson (Paul Finch) Edge | US Army Ret. 1/506th Inf (Mtr. Lt.)
EMT-Paramedic/BSN Wanna-be and Will-Be! Self Empowered Gun Nut
Message no. 4
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Concealability
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 20:00:25 +1000
Paul Finch writes:

> You must not have much weaponss training.:)

Exactly.

> Let me try it another way. Ok hows this (I thought about this and it
> might help), if you are looking for a hand gun in a pocket (common place for
> a pistol to be hidden), and you fail to note the slight angled crease under
> the guys armpit. You dont see the remington roomsweeper (last place one
> would normaly think to hide a shotgun).

But not the last place you'd look for a pistol. Would it not be more obvious
to look at _both_? You decide to check for a pistol in a shoulder holster,
and whooa, you find a short barreled shotgun instead.

> Again, you are looking for a handgun in a shoulder holter. The
> roomsweeper, held horizontily on the dudes back, in a special rig get mised.

Unless he turns around, or bends over, or sits down, or...

> So psychology plays a little when you are trying to hide something. Does
> this help?

No, and no. Whatever happened to the "you notice a slight buldge under his
left armpit, it looks a little too unnatural"? Psycholoy might play a little
part, as in you could hide the weapon some place unusual (like the rig on
the back you described), but the idea of a perception roll is to spot unusual
features, or strange movements of the person you are looking at. A weapon
hid in an odd place might be a little less likely to be seen because people
won't look theer for it, but I don't see how this has an effect on the
concealability ratings of the individual weapons.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a18 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
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Message no. 5
From: Paul Finch <pfinch@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Concealability
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 01:00:12 -0700
On Thu, 23 Mar 1995, Damion Milliken wrote:

> Paul Finch writes:
>
> > You must not have much weaponss training.:)
>
> Exactly.

Im sorry guy but enough said then. Ill let it drop at this and lets go
on to some other point of weapons ok. I just cant seem to get my point
accross to you and Im sortah running out of ideas. "If you have been
there then I dont need to say a thing. If you havent then not a thing I
say will make a differance!:)"

>
> No, and no. Whatever happened to the "you notice a slight buldge under his
> left armpit, it looks a little too unnatural"? Psycholoy might play a little
> part, as in you could hide the weapon some place unusual (like the rig on
> the back you described), but the idea of a perception roll is to spot unusual
> features, or strange movements of the person you are looking at. A weapon
> hid in an odd place might be a little less likely to be seen because people
> won't look theer for it, but I don't see how this has an effect on the
> concealability ratings of the individual weapons.

Ok then you get all dressed up and take a small gun and a two inch
by one inch buy 6 inch piece of wood, truck on down to the local store
and see what happens!:) Sorry guy but Im all out of ideas. Ill try again
laters.

Edge(all tired out)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They are infinitely patient, prefering to minimize risks to themelves and
suffer a thousand defeats if they gain the final victory. Still, they are
diabolically clever, and devious in the extream. If they fail militarily,
they infiltrate and corrupt. Now they are on the march once more, and the
more they are set back, the more determined, devious and dangerous they
become. Curr ahee
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Peterson (Paul Finch) Edge | US Army Ret. 1/506th Inf (Mtr. Lt.)
EMT-Paramedic/BSN Wanna-be and Will-Be! Self Empowered Gun Nut
Message no. 6
From: WILLIAM FRIERSON <will1am@*****.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Concealability
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 1995 04:08:51 -0700
Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK (Paul Jonathan Adam) wrote:

>Depends... A lot of traditional pat-downs are "armpit to knee" searches. I
>was checked for weapons by the US Army once and they missed a 5-inch lock-
>knife in my pocket. Good places to holster weapons are inside the ankle,
>small of the back, crotch rig... All available in the Uncle Mike's and
>Bianchi catalogues. A Glock 23 is a dinky little weapon: but it fires
>twelve rounds of .40S&W very accurately. (My Glock 21 is a brute and not
>easy to hide at all, and as for something like a Desert Eagle...)

It depends on the situation. In a correctional environment, the officers
are looking for very small packages, and the pat-downs are thorough (
including looking in the inmate's mouth and having them run their fingers
through their hair). And let's just say there are places where weapons
can be hid, even during a strip search. I'll leave it at that.

A cop on the street is looking mainly for weapons, and it is more of a
cursory search, since anyone arrested will be stripped when they get to
the jail.

Military exercises are something else again. Or POW situations. Just look
at how many POWs that the Coalition armies had to deal with during Desert
Storm. I imagine from the numbers that weapons searches were very brief,
if done at all.

And half the battle is not getting searched. If you are dressed like
scumbags and acting like them, the chances are better of drawing unwanted
attention than if you were wearing decent clothing and acting appropiately.

Later


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William Frierson Internet: WILL1AM@*****.asu.edu
Message no. 7
From: John Chesser <shaggy68@*******.COM>
Subject: Concealability
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 14:27:14 -0600
I have a few questions about concealability.

1) Does anyone think the concealability rules are weird? Does anyone have
any new ways to handle it? This is why I think it's weird:

A Lone Star officer with a low police procedures skill, lets say one, has
a 50 percent chance of recognizing an Average Heavy Pistol without a
holster, hidden on a person. That is pretty high for a Pistol, and a sorry
police officer.

Ares Predator II (4) I have a gun that is about this size (Beretta
92FS 9mm) and I can conceal it pretty good. I have answered the door with
it hidden in the front of my pants and it seems no one has seen it. I have
stared at myself in the mirror with it concealed and not noticed it. I
truly hope no one did.

Remington Roomsweeper (8) I measured the internal magazine on my
Shotgun (Winchester model 1300 Ranger) it came to only 12 1/2 inches,
(Note: that is just the length of the magazine, not the length of the
loader/extracter) and it only holds four rounds. Cramming 3 more rounds in
there would mathematicly make it about 21 inches long. Having such a
powerful small weapon I wonder where the bigger versions (Besides Assault
Cannons) are.

I do take in account the new technology, how police leave people alone in
bad neighborhoods even though they see weapons. I also realize that 1
success means that they see "there is something there but little else".

I present use the rules presented in the book because I don't like my
characters carrying weapons around everywhere. Answer how you feel.
Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Concealability
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 13:01:13 +0100
John Chesser said on 14:27/ 7 Feb 97...

> A Lone Star officer with a low police procedures skill, lets say one, has
> a 50 percent chance of recognizing an Average Heavy Pistol without a
> holster, hidden on a person. That is pretty high for a Pistol, and a sorry
> police officer.

You use Perception (=Intelligence) to spot concealed items, not Police
Procedures. Still, an average cop will probbaly have both at the same
level (3 or so) which doesn't make much difference.

> I present use the rules presented in the book because I don't like my
> characters carrying weapons around everywhere. Answer how you feel.

The trick, if there is one, is to use common sense. Yes, a Roomsweeper
has a Concealability of 8, but you can rule you're going to need a long
coat to hide it under. If it's an extremely streamlined design, it could
have a very high Concealability even though it's a long weapon.
Same thing with, for example, assault rifles. Concealability 3? Sure, only
if you stick it into a big bag or under a trenchcoat.
Pistols could be concealed under a waist-length jacket, while with SMGs
it's best to decide on a case-by-case basis.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Plastic donut, can of Spam.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 9
From: John Chesser <shaggy68@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Concealability
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 12:25:16 -0600
----------
> From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
>
> You use Perception (=Intelligence) to spot concealed items, not Police
> Procedures. Still, an average cop will probbaly have both at the same
> level (3 or so) which doesn't make much difference.

> The trick, if there is one, is to use common sense. Yes, a Roomsweeper
> has a Concealability of 8, but you can rule you're going to need a long
> coat to hide it under. If it's an extremely streamlined design, it could
> have a very high Concealability even though it's a long weapon.
> Same thing with, for example, assault rifles. Concealability 3? Sure,
only
> if you stick it into a big bag or under a trenchcoat.
> Pistols could be concealed under a waist-length jacket, while with SMGs
> it's best to decide on a case-by-case basis.

Yeah, I was just mad at something and had to get it out of my system,
Case-by-case is a good idea. I always thought that concealability was if
just normally trying to hide the weapon, not putting it in a bag, or under
a coat. Now I'm gonna make the players cram their guns everywhere, and I
hope their unarmed combat skill is paid up!

John

Further Reading

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