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Message no. 1
From: Shane Courtrille <hardware@*******.DATANET.AB.CA>
Subject: Concentration
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 23:55:19 +0000
Can a character concentrate in multiple fields?

Like
Firearms 4
Rifles 6
Pistols 5

the main book is kind of vague.. but as far as I can tell.. the
answer is no.. but I wanted to be sure..... *wave*

Shane Courtrille - hardware@*******.ab.ca
Message no. 2
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Concentration
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 16:03:27 GMT
Shane Courtrille writes

> Can a character concentrate in multiple fields?
>
> Like
> Firearms 4
> Rifles 6
> Pistols 5
>
> the main book is kind of vague.. but as far as I can tell.. the
> answer is no.. but I wanted to be sure..... *wave*
>
SR2 says you may only have one concentration per skill at creation.

AFAIK what you propose above is legal but at 'new rating *2' for
general skill and 'twice new rating *1.5 = *3' for 2 concentrations i
think this is a waste of time!

Mark
Message no. 3
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Concentration
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:50:00 +0100
|
|Can a character concentrate in multiple fields?
|
|Like
|Firearms 4
| Rifles 6
| Pistols 5
|
|the main book is kind of vague.. but as far as I can tell.. the
|answer is no.. but I wanted to be sure..... *wave*

A STARTING Character can only conc/spec in one field....

There's nothing to stop him from using karma to conc/spec in others
though...

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 4
From: Brett Borger <SwiftOne@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Concentration
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:58:43 -0400
>Can a character concentrate in multiple fields?
>
>Like
>Firearms 4
> Rifles 6
> Pistols 5

Yes, AFTER Creation. DURING creation, No (excluding Languages and Etiquette).

Anyone else have problems with the fact that you can spend Karma and get to:
Firearms 5
-Pistols 8

and then not get any changes to Pistols while you raist Firearms? (That's a
LOT of Karma you're spending to raise that)

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 5
From: "Faux Pas (Thomas)" <thomas@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Concentration
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:16:32 -0500
At 11:55 PM 5/14/97 +0000, Shane Courtrille whispered:
>Can a character concentrate in multiple fields?
>
>Like
>Firearms 4
> Rifles 6
> Pistols 5
>

Not in my campaign during initial character generation. The way I read the
rules is by concentrating in a skill, your studies in other aspects of that
field aren't as intense*. If you want your character to be adept at both
rifles and pistols, get a good overall firearms skill and just roleplay
your character not using sub-machine guns.

Later in the game when increasing your character's skills with karma, then
you can increase the pistols skill from 4 to 5.

*That is how the game mechanics work. Even though there are people who can
fire a pistol as well as they can fire a rifle, when you purchase a
concentration in Shadowrun your character's main skill drops. In Shadowrun
you cannot start with a character really good with a rifle and a pistol,
but suck with an SMG.


-Thomas Deeny
Your Guide to Shadowrun - http://shadowrun.miningco.com
Thomas's World is http://telltale.hart.org - come visit!

"... what character deserves to be left alone more at the end of the world
than that idiot Ash?"
-Bruce Campbell on the dropped ending for _Army of Darkness_
Message no. 6
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Concentration
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 08:37:06 -0700
| Can a character concentrate in multiple fields?
|
| Like
| Firearms 4
| Rifles 6
| Pistols 5

AKAIK you can, but you can only take one concentration at character
creation. The rest must be purchased with karma later.


-Caric


Word to the wise... Never anger a dragon, for you are crunchy, and would
be good with brie!!!

-Karl Teranssen av Drakkar
Message no. 7
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Concentration
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:34:10 -0700
| >Can a character concentrate in multiple fields?
| >
| >Like
| >Firearms 4
| > Rifles 6
| > Pistols 5
|
| Yes, AFTER Creation. DURING creation, No (excluding Languages and
Etiquette).
|
| Anyone else have problems with the fact that you can spend Karma and get
to:
| Firearms 5
| -Pistols 8
|
| and then not get any changes to Pistols while you raist Firearms?
(That's a
| LOT of Karma you're spending to raise that)

I don't have any problems with that because you are just "catching up" your
other firearms based skills with your already advanced pistols skill.

-Caric


Word to the wise... Never anger a dragon, for you are crunchy, and would
be good with brie!!!

-Karl Teranssen av Drakkar
Message no. 8
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: Concentration
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 08:57:11 -0800
At 10:58 5/15/97 -0400, Brett Borger wrote:
>>Can a character concentrate in multiple fields?
>>
>>Like
>>Firearms 4
>> Rifles 6
>> Pistols 5

>Yes, AFTER Creation. DURING creation, No (excluding Languages and
Etiquette).
>
>Anyone else have problems with the fact that you can spend Karma and get to:
>Firearms 5
>-Pistols 8
>
>and then not get any changes to Pistols while you raist Firearms? (That's a
>LOT of Karma you're spending to raise that)

Yes. It simply doesn't make sense, so the house rules in our game say
that you can increase a skill from a Specialization to a Concentration
or from a Concentration to a General skill by spending the karma to make
up the difference. (Our house rules also let you spend karma on
skills instead of assigning points so you don't get the ridiculous
"6 build points can be worth 6 karma for 6 skills or 51 karma for one"
problem of the vanilla rules...) http://www.amurgsval.org/shadowrun/

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "So, an Arisian, a Vorlon, and a knnn go into a tavern..." %%
Message no. 9
From: "Faux Pas (Thomas)" <thomas@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Concentration
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:16:19 -0500
At 10:58 AM 5/15/97 -0400, Brett Borger whispered:
>Anyone else have problems with the fact that you can spend Karma and get to:
>Firearms 5
>-Pistols 8
>
>and then not get any changes to Pistols while you raist Firearms? (That's a
>LOT of Karma you're spending to raise that)

Nope. Just because you're a crack shot with a pistol doesn't mean you're
suddenly better with sub-machine guns. You've been spending all this time
working on your pistol skills, not the other firearms-related skills. When
you start raising your firearms skill, you're working with other weapons -
other than pistols.


-Thomas Deeny
Your Guide to Shadowrun - http://shadowrun.miningco.com
Thomas's World is http://telltale.hart.org - come visit!

"... what character deserves to be left alone more at the end of the world
than that idiot Ash?"
-Bruce Campbell on the dropped ending for _Army of Darkness_
Message no. 10
From: Court Schuett <schuett@*****.IVCC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Concentration
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:10:14 -0500
>| Can a character concentrate in multiple fields?
>|
>| Like
>| Firearms 4
>| Rifles 6
>| Pistols 5
>AKAIK you can, but you can only take one concentration at character
>creation. The rest must be purchased with karma later.
> -Caric

Okay, but what if I purchased Firearms 6 at startup, Concentrated in
Pistols, thereby lowering everything else to 5. But then, I spent another
6 skill points in Firearms, and concentrated in Rifles also at startup.
Would that be possible? It's kinda expensive, but then you can get 2
different firearms skills at 8, both specialized, but...

-=Court


/* Court Schuett, a totally modern boy.

schuett@*****.ivcc.edu
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

But I'm thinking of a wooden chair
In the room at the top of a stair
And I'm looking down the stairwell
At the vanishing dot
On the map of the spot
Let me take you there
The dotted line
Surrounding the mind
Of a self called nowhere
-They Might Be Giants

*****************************************************************************/
Message no. 11
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Concentration
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:20:39 -0700
Court Asked:

| >AKAIK you can, but you can only take one concentration at character
| >creation. The rest must be purchased with karma later.
| > -Caric
|
| Okay, but what if I purchased Firearms 6 at startup, Concentrated in
| Pistols, thereby lowering everything else to 5. But then, I spent
another
| 6 skill points in Firearms, and concentrated in Rifles also at startup.
| Would that be possible? It's kinda expensive, but then you can get 2
| different firearms skills at 8, both specialized, but...

That would be dependant on your GM, but I would say if you REALLY wanted to
blow twelve precious skill points during character gen. to get firearms 5
and two concentrations at 7 then I would let you, as long as you understood
that I thought it was a really really really bad idea =)

-Caric


Word to the wise... Never anger a dragon, for you are crunchy, and would
be good with brie!!!

-Karl Teranssen av Drakkar
Message no. 12
From: Lars Fucking Olsen <larsols@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Concentration
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 22:09:29 +0200
On Wed, 14 May 1997, Shane Courtrille wrote:

> Can a character concentrate in multiple fields?
>
> Like
> Firearms 4
> Rifles 6
> Pistols 5
>
> the main book is kind of vague.. but as far as I can tell.. the
> answer is no.. but I wanted to be sure..... *wave*

When in doubt, use common sense. If I went to a gun school. (or
something) I might get a gun skill of say 3. After i've finished that
class, I feel like specializing in the colt manhunter, and shoot with it
until my skill at colt manhunter is 4. Then something else comes out on
the market, that looks much cooler. I start shooting with it, and loves
it so much the skill rises to 4, and then 5.

Does any1 see anything wrong with this ?


-lars
Message no. 13
From: Gossamer <kajohnson@*******.TEC.WI.US>
Subject: Re: Concentration
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:16:59 -0500
> Okay, but what if I purchased Firearms 6 at startup, Concentrated in
> Pistols, thereby lowering everything else to 5. But then, I spent
another
> 6 skill points in Firearms, and concentrated in Rifles also at startup.
> Would that be possible? It's kinda expensive, but then you can get 2
> different firearms skills at 8, both specialized, but...

No. As I understand the rules, there is one general skill called Firearms.
You can't take general skills twice. (anyone want to confirm that?)

My question to you is this: Why do you feel the need to have Grand
Master Level skills in 2 separate firearms as a beginning player? This
level of ability tends to represent (as far as I understand the intent of
the design guys) upwards of 8-10 years of dedicated practice with
whatever skill you're considering.

Also, keep in mind that the mechanic of the game is designed with an
average skill of 3, and 6 is considered to an incredible level of skill.
Now,
I know that all you gamers out there have way high skills so you can
roll lots of dice and all, but an average Joe on the street has a skill
level of 3 or 4 in the job he does every day. It takes some serious
investment of time to develop a skill to 6.

It's my NSHO that I think you've lost focus on the ideas represented
by the numbers you're using... I think you're looking at the numbers
and just seeing dice. Then when you try to squeeze 2 more dice out
of some skill, you see it as 2 extra dice to use, not the years of training
that it would take to get there.

Thanks for listening,

Gossamer
Message no. 14
From: Loki <gamemstr@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Concentration
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:37:50 -0700
--Court Schuett wrote:
>
> Okay, but what if I purchased Firearms 6 at startup, Concentrated in
> Pistols, thereby lowering everything else to 5. But then, I spent
another
> 6 skill points in Firearms, and concentrated in Rifles also at
startup.
> Would that be possible? It's kinda expensive, but then you can get 2
> different firearms skills at 8, both specialized, but...

As I stated in another post. SRII page 70 states a starting character
can only have one Concentration and Specialization per skill. So what
you 're trying to do here is not legal within the rules, maybe as a
house rule, but not by the BBB.

@>--,--'--- Loki

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- A. C. Clarke


Poisoned Elves http://www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
Message no. 15
From: Loki <gamemstr@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Concentration
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:39:09 -0700
---Shane Courtrille wrote:
>
> Can a character concentrate in multiple fields?
>
> Like
> Firearms 4
> Rifles 6
> Pistols 5
>
> the main book is kind of vague.. but as far as I can tell.. the
> answer is no.. but I wanted to be sure..... *wave*

SRII, page 70: "Starting characters are allowed only one Concentration
and one Specialization per skill."

This leads me to believe that during game play, other concentrations
and specializations may be developed on the same skills. That's how
I've always allowed it in my game.

@>--,--'--- Loki

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- A. C. Clarke


Poisoned Elves http://www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
Message no. 16
From: "Faux Pas (Thomas)" <thomas@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Concentration
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:47:24 -0500
At 10:09 PM 5/15/97 +0200, Lars Fucking Olsen whispered:

>When in doubt, use common sense. If I went to a gun school. (or
>something) I might get a gun skill of say 3. After i've finished that
>class, I feel like specializing in the colt manhunter, and shoot with it
>until my skill at colt manhunter is 4. Then something else comes out on
>the market, that looks much cooler. I start shooting with it, and loves
>it so much the skill rises to 4, and then 5.
>
>Does any1 see anything wrong with this ?

Nope. Unfortunately you can't do this as a starting character in Shadowrun
the way the rules are set up. What you are describing in game terms is
some one that spends 3 points on Firearms, concentrating on Pistols and
specializing in the Colt Manhunter. Those three points gives the starting
character the following skills:

Firearms 1
Pistols 3
Colt Manhunter 5

Later, the character goes ahead and picks up the LD-120 and decides that
he'll be better at it than he his with the Manhunter (God only knows why).
Spending Karma (I think it's from 3 to 4 to 5 to 6, or 15 points of Karma -
I could be wrong), he'll wind up with:

Firearms 1
Pistols 3
Colt Manhunter 5
LD-120 6

What you've proposed in game terms is a character that worked out with
weapons, then really got involved with the Manhunter and then decided to go
with the LD-120 as gun of choice. That's a character who has developed his
skills by spending Karma. Game-wise, you'd be starting your character in
the campaign after you got out of gun school and before you started
specializing in the Colt Manhunter.

Now if you wanted the character to have the LD-120 at 5, the Manhunter at
4, and Firearms at 3 at character generation, I, the GM, would suggest you
spend four points with a concentration on the LD-120. Your starting skill
would be:

Firearms 2
Pistols 4
LD-120 6

And if you wanted your character to be better with the Manhunter than any
other pistol (aside from the LD-120), I'd see if you'd be willing to only
use 3 dice when using any pistol other than the Manhunter or LD-120.
Playing in character leads to a bigger Karma reward, you know.




-Thomas Deeny
Your Guide to Shadowrun - http://shadowrun.miningco.com
Thomas's World is http://telltale.hart.org - come visit!

"... what character deserves to be left alone more at the end of the world
than that idiot Ash?"
-Bruce Campbell on the dropped ending for _Army of Darkness_
Message no. 17
From: MENARD Steve <menars@***.UMONTREAL.CA>
Subject: Re: Concentration
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 19:50:01 -0400
On Wed, 14 May 1997, Shane Courtrille wrote:

> Can a character concentrate in multiple fields?
>
> Like
> Firearms 4
> Rifles 6
> Pistols 5
>
> the main book is kind of vague.. but as far as I can tell.. the
> answer is no.. but I wanted to be sure..... *wave*
>
Sure, why not. Don't see why it would be useful, and it would cost a
lot more than just building up the general skill.

What the rulebook says is that you can't have more than one
conecntration for each skill at character creation, it does not say about
after.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--- |\_/| Still The One and Only Wolfbane! ---
--- |o o| " Hey! Why ya lookin' at me so weird? Ain't ya 'ver seen a ---
--- \ / decker witha horn ?" --- Scy, Troll decker with a CC ---
--- 0 Steve Menard menars@***.UMontreal.Ca ---
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 18
From: Gweedo The Killer Pimp <yawas@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Concentration
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 20:06:14 EDT
On Wed, 14 May 1997 23:55:19 +0000 Shane Courtrille
<hardware@*******.DATANET.AB.CA> writes:
>Can a character concentrate in multiple fields?
>
>Like
>Firearms 4
> Rifles 6
> Pistols 5
>
>the main book is kind of vague.. but as far as I can tell.. the
>answer is no.. but I wanted to be sure..... *wave*

I thought the way the character would go, would be:

Firearms (SMG's) 3/5
Firearms (Pistols) 4/6
Firearms (Rifles) 3/5

Where you would have to have multiple firearms with diff. concentrations.
This is the way I play it at least.


This is my sig.
Love it
Or leave it.

Gweedo the Killer Pimp
Message no. 19
From: "Faux Pas (Thomas)" <thomas@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Concentration
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:44:01 -0500
At 08:06 PM 5/15/97 EDT, Gweedo The Killer Pimp whispered:
>I thought the way the character would go, would be:
>
>Firearms (SMG's) 3/5
>Firearms (Pistols) 4/6
>Firearms (Rifles) 3/5
>
>Where you would have to have multiple firearms with diff. concentrations.
> This is the way I play it at least.

But when a character like that picks up a firearm that doesn't fit into
either of those three categories, how many dice would he roll? 3 dice,
because a majority of the base Firearms skills are 3, or 4 dice because
that's the highest base Firearms skill? And when your character tries to
get another concentration off of Firearms, would he start from the Firearms
3 or Firearms 4 skill?

Although we're just talking about game mechanics, I wouldn't want to play
with a character that was created with those multiple specializations. How
much would that (3/5, 4/6, 3/5) character spend in starting skill points?
13? Out of about 20, 24 starting skill points? Those skill points could
have been better used on skills to keep the character alive (stealth,
acrobatics, etiquette, biotech/first aid...) than to make a killing
machine. Or other skills to round out the character. "Jimmy? As
interesting as a sack of potatoes. He'll be lost in a conversation unless
it's about guns."




-Thomas Deeny
Your Guide to Shadowrun - http://shadowrun.miningco.com
Thomas's World is http://telltale.hart.org - come visit!

"... what character deserves to be left alone more at the end of the world
than that idiot Ash?"
-Bruce Campbell on the dropped ending for _Army of Darkness_
Message no. 20
From: "Boyd Stephen Smith, Jr." <gilmeth@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Concentration
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 11:09:20 -0500
From: Shane Courtrille [SMTP:hardware@*******.DATANET.AB.CA]
Subject: Concentration

| Can a character concentrate in multiple fields?

| Like
| Firearms 4
| Rifles 6
| Pistols 5

| the main book is kind of vague.. but as far as I can tell.. the
| answer is no.. but I wanted to be sure..... *wave*

IIRC, you cannot have multiple concentrations/specializations
when the character is first created (this is because all concen
trations and specializations at first are based upon the general
skill); however, after character creation they are completely
separate for the general skill and yes, you can have more than
one. You can even have a concentration without having the
general skill!

Note: having multiple concentrations in a skill in not karma-cost
-effective (general skill=2xkarma, 2 concentrations=3x(1.5+1.5)
karma. Same thing applies for multiple specializations in a con
centration or more than two in a general skill.


Twinkie
gilmeth@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/3759/
ICQ UIN: 514984
Sitebuilder Number: 531896

Do NOT use this or any other of my e-mail addresses in a for-profit =
e-mail database. The usage of such an address is bound by the terms =
listed at http://www.rahul.net/starowl/email.html
Message no. 21
From: MENARD Steve <smenard@****.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: Concentration
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:50:25 -0500
About having a concentration without the skill, I thought that to get
a new skill, you always bought the first level for 1 karma point.
Otherwise, since costs are based on current level, all skills, be they
general, concentration of specialization skills will cost as much for
the first level!


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Concentration
Author: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET> at INTERNET
Date: 5/16/97 11:09 AM


From: Shane Courtrille [SMTP:hardware@*******.DATANET.AB.CA]
Subject: Concentration

| Can a character concentrate in multiple fields?

| Like
| Firearms 4
| Rifles 6
| Pistols 5

| the main book is kind of vague.. but as far as I can tell.. the
| answer is no.. but I wanted to be sure..... *wave*

IIRC, you cannot have multiple concentrations/specializations
when the character is first created (this is because all concen
trations and specializations at first are based upon the general
skill); however, after character creation they are completely
separate for the general skill and yes, you can have more than
one. You can even have a concentration without having the
general skill!

Note: having multiple concentrations in a skill in not karma-cost
-effective (general skill=2xkarma, 2 concentrations=3x(1.5+1.5)
karma. Same thing applies for multiple specializations in a con
centration or more than two in a general skill.


Twinkie
gilmeth@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/3759/
ICQ UIN: 514984
Sitebuilder Number: 531896

Do NOT use this or any other of my e-mail addresses in a for-profit e-mail
database. The usage of such an address is bound by the terms listed at
http://www.rahul.net/starowl/email.html
Message no. 22
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Concentration
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:03:15 +0100
Loki said on 13:39/15 May 97...

> SRII, page 70: "Starting characters are allowed only one Concentration
> and one Specialization per skill."
>
> This leads me to believe that during game play, other concentrations
> and specializations may be developed on the same skills. That's how
> I've always allowed it in my game.

That's my interpretation too. Oh yeah, and Etiquette also falls under this
rule, since there's no rule stating that skill is an exception. All it
says about Etiquette is that you _have_ to take a concentration.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
In another place, in another time, I'd be driving trucks
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 23
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Concentration
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:03:15 +0100
Shane Courtrille said on 23:55/14 May 97...

> Can a character concentrate in multiple fields?
>
> Like
> Firearms 4
> Rifles 6
> Pistols 5
>
> the main book is kind of vague.. but as far as I can tell.. the
> answer is no.. but I wanted to be sure..... *wave*

Yes, any character can concentrate or specialize in different areas of a
skill. However, at character generation you're limited to only one
concentration and one specialization per skill. Once the game's begun,
though, you can take all the concentrations and specializations you want.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
In another place, in another time, I'd be driving trucks
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 24
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Concentration
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:03:15 +0100
Court Schuett said on 14:10/15 May 97...

> Okay, but what if I purchased Firearms 6 at startup, Concentrated in
> Pistols, thereby lowering everything else to 5. But then, I spent another
> 6 skill points in Firearms, and concentrated in Rifles also at startup.
> Would that be possible? It's kinda expensive, but then you can get 2
> different firearms skills at 8, both specialized, but...

I'd say that's not possible, because you're taking two different
Concentrations in the same skill. Also, if you spend 6 points twice, you'd
effectively know one skill twice -- anyone who can give me a rational
explanation of why someone would know a _single_ skill two times can do
it, as far as I'm concerned.


And Gossamer said on 15:16/15 May 97...

> No. As I understand the rules, there is one general skill called
> Firearms. You can't take general skills twice. (anyone want to confirm
> that?)

I don't think it says that anywhere in SRII, but common sense (my common
sense, anyway) suggests you can't learn the same general skill twice.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
In another place, in another time, I'd be driving trucks
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 25
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Concentration
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 16:04:07 EDT
On Wed, 14 May 1997 23:55:19 +0000 Shane Courtrille
<hardware@*******.DATANET.AB.CA> writes:
>Can a character concentrate in multiple fields?
>
>Like
>Firearms 4
> Rifles 6
> Pistols 5
>
>the main book is kind of vague.. but as far as I can tell.. the
>answer is no.. but I wanted to be sure..... *wave*

Depends. A _starting_ character may not have more than one concentration
and specialization per skill. After chargen, a character may have as many
concentrations and specializations as he or she wishes. I think that was
stated in the Behind the Scenes chapter in SRII, on the same page(s) that
they explained raising skills and attributes with karma.

--
-Canthros
And ye shall know the truth, and lobo1@****.com
the truth shall set you free. canthros1@***.com
--John 8:32, KJV
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 26
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Concentration
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 18:48:36 EDT
On Thu, 15 May 1997 20:06:14 EDT Gweedo The Killer Pimp <yawas@****.COM>
writes:
<snip>
>I thought the way the character would go, would be:
>
>Firearms (SMG's) 3/5
>Firearms (Pistols) 4/6
>Firearms (Rifles) 3/5
>
>Where you would have to have multiple firearms with diff.
>concentrations.
> This is the way I play it at least.

Actually, its set up, IIRC, so that yo9u can have multiple concentrations
in one general skill and multiple specializations in a concentration, but
only after Character Generation. During Character gen, you may only have
one concentration pery general skill and one specialization per
concentration. (The only exceptions to that are the Ettiquette skill and
Languages) While there is no restriction on having the same skill
multiple times, that I know of, I think it was assumed that no one would
consider the idea, let along the possibility. Second, concentrations and
specializations do not have their ratings based on those of general
skills after chargen. Once you've started playing, you pay Karma for the
rating you want in that concentration, and you have it. It does not,
however, reduce the rating of the general skill.

So, your example would work out to:

Firearms 4
(SMGs) 5
(Pistols) 6
(Rifles) 5

--
-Canthros
And ye shall know the truth, and lobo1@****.com
the truth shall set you free. canthros1@***.com
--John 8:32, KJV
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 27
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Concentration
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 15:59:23 -0700
(The only exceptions to that are the Ettiquette skill and
| Languages)

This came from the concentrations thread and made me wonder if you guys
treated languages as special skills or general skills I think (Loki?) we
treat them as general skills which seems kind of a bummer to me. Lemm have
it...whats the scoop.


-Caric


Word to the wise... Never anger a dragon, for you are crunchy, and would
be good with brie!!!

-Karl Teranssen av Drakkar
Message no. 28
From: Loki <gamemstr@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Concentration
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 16:32:57 -0700
Caric bemoaned:
>
> This came from the concentrations thread and made me wonder if you guys
> treated languages as special skills or general skills I think (Loki?) we
> treat them as general skills which seems kind of a bummer to me. Lemm
have
> it...whats the scoop.

I'm not sure if I understand just what you're getting at or asking here.
Languages are their own seperate skill category, as are Active, Social,
Vehicle, Knowledge and Special Skills. Special Skills is just a catch-all
subset for skills like Police Procedures that don't really fit in any of
the other groups. There's no set difference in Karma Cost for raising a
Special Skill as opposed to an Active or Social skill, which I believe was
what you might have been thinking above. However, Languages themselves are
cheaper to raise at only 1x the New Rating in Karma.

SRII, page 190:

GOOD KARMA COST FOR SKILLS
General Skills 2x New Rating
Concentrations 1.5x New Rating
Specializations 1x New Rating
Languages 1x New Rating

@>--,--'--- Loki

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- A. C. Clarke


Poisoned Elves http://www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
Message no. 29
From: "Boyd Stephen Smith, Jr." <gilmeth@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Concentration
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:44:21 -0500
From: Brett Borger [SMTP:SwiftOne@***.EDU]
Subject: Re: Concentration

| Anyone else have problems with the fact that you can spend Karma and =
get to:
| Firearms 5
| -Pistols 8

| and then not get any changes to Pistols while you raist Firearms? =
(That's a
| LOT of Karma you're spending to raise that)

It sort of bugs me too. For example under computer, there
are only two concentrations (Software and hardware) and
I have 5/7 Computer/Software. Now, I can either use 9pts.
To increase my hardware skill to 6 or 12pts. to increase my
computer skill to 6. And they both do the same thing!!! (Since
there are no other concentrations under computer). But, when
I finally get my hardware up to 7 (or even with my software
whatever it my be) To increase both of them I would have to
pay 3x the karma even though it is exactly like raising the
general skill computer (again... because there are not other
concentrations) which would only cost 2x. It just gets wired
after a while. What I'm going to do is raise my general computer
skill (pay 12 pt.) so that I spend karma now to save later (I
guess?) I want to know how this is properly (by cannon) interpreted
since there are only two concentrations under computer...
If you have 6 in one skill and 7 in the other skill wouldn't they
automatically have the skill at 6 Hmmm. Let me give a better
example... (Remember when considering this that... Hardware
and software are the ONLY concentrations of computer skill)

Computer 5
Software 7

Increase hardware twice...(pay 20pts.)

IS it...
Computer 5
Software 7 or Computer 7
Hardware 7

Then to increase the general skill (Computer) to 8.

Pay 42pts. (6,7,8) or Pay 16pts. (8)

Or increase both hardware and software to 8 (really the
same thing)

Pay 24pts. (each to 8(12pts. A piece)) or Pay 16pts. (as
if you had the computer skill)


Twinkie
gilmeth@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/3759/
ICQ UIN: 514984
Sitebuilder Number: 531896

Do NOT use this or any other of my e-mail addresses in a for-profit =
e-mail database. The usage of such an address is bound by the terms =
listed at http://www.rahul.net/starowl/email.html

PS
Sorry that was so long.
Message no. 30
From: tom Cone <Brother-1@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Concentration
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 03:36:47 -1000
> long question about computer skill and stuff.
#1. When you decide to concentrate, you're doing it out of consideration
for your character, and you know what you're doing.
#2. Make up some house rule about catching up to the concentration with
lesser karma cost than the main skill.
#3. When the main skill and concentration are equal, consider them one
skill, kill the concentration, and rethink your character some more.
#4. Don't expect to be a happy camper at 4 am with a total lack of sleep
when the caffeine wears off. That's really more of a personal lesson,
but I think everyone could benefit with this nugget of wisdom.

Brother-1. Decker for hire.
"Black IC!! You eeediot!! You bloated code!!
You sick little program!! I will DELETE YOU!!!!"
Message no. 31
From: Christian Werner <i21axray@*******.RZ.UNIBW-MUENCHEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Concentration
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 18:19:03 +0200
< snip > Problem with raising skills after character creation

I think the problem is: If I raise a skill, do the concentrations an
specialisation too?

We use a house rule, that says, that they raise too, but you are
restricted to have a too high difference between main skill,
concentration and spec.
so you could have:

Firearms: 6
Rifles: 9
Baret Sniper: 12

If you raise Firearms one level you would get:

Firearms: 7
Rilfes: 10
Baret Sniper: 13

Reason: I think, if you train Firearms, then you automatically get
better in your concentrations/spec. too. Because you learn theory too,
not only praxis. All IMHO.
Message no. 32
From: Dust <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
Subject: Re: Concentration
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 14:31:58 -0400
On Mon, 19 May 1997, Christian Werner wrote:

> < snip > Problem with raising skills after character creation
>
> I think the problem is: If I raise a skill, do the concentrations an
> specialisation too?
>
> We use a house rule, that says, that they raise too, but you are
> restricted to have a too high difference between main skill,
> concentration and spec.
> so you could have:
>
> Firearms: 6
> Rifles: 9
> Baret Sniper: 12
>
> If you raise Firearms one level you would get:
>
> Firearms: 7
> Rilfes: 10
> Baret Sniper: 13
>
> Reason: I think, if you train Firearms, then you automatically get
> better in your concentrations/spec. too. Because you learn theory too,
> not only praxis. All IMHO.
>
I don't think it works like that. You pay the karma for the
general, concentration or the specialization and that's the end of the
story.

Dust
Message no. 33
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Concentration -Reply
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 17:01:53 -0500
>I think the problem is: If I raise a skill, do the
>concentrations an specialisation too?

By the rules: ABSOLUTELY NOT <cringes in
horror>!

This can get very unbalanced if you allow it. The
cost of getting that Barret score up to 13
normally is way to high to just give it away for
free.
On the other hand: you are completely correct
that it is a bit unfair that the effort you spent
learning the conc or spec is "wasted". The
house rule that I use and recomend is that the
karma cost to learn the base skill is reduced by
the amount you already spent on the conc or
spec.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 34
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Concentration
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:16:26 GMT
Dust writes
> On Mon, 19 May 1997, Christian Werner wrote:
>
> > We use a house rule, that says, that they raise too, but you are
> > restricted to have a too high difference between main skill,
> > concentration and spec.
> > so you could have:
> >
> > Firearms: 6
> > Rifles: 9
> > Baret Sniper: 12
> >
> > If you raise Firearms one level you would get:
> >
> > Firearms: 7
> > Rilfes: 10
> > Baret Sniper: 13
> >
> > Reason: I think, if you train Firearms, then you automatically get
> > better in your concentrations/spec. too. Because you learn theory too,
> > not only praxis. All IMHO.
> >
> I don't think it works like that. You pay the karma for the
> general, concentration or the specialization and that's the end of the
> story.
>
According to the rules you would pay your 14 karma and get
firearms : 7
rifles : 9
Barrat : 12

I think this is just too nasty, and assuming it is not abused allow
folks for 'trade up' ie pay 3 or 4 (depending on how you do the
rounding) to convert the rilfes7 to firearms 7, the first having cost
you 10 or 11 points the latter being worth 14.

rilfes to 10 would be 5 more (specialisation at 10 to concentration)
and the barrat 12-13 would be 13.
Total 3 + 5 + 13 = 21 for what you suggested.

Not by the book, and so far usued but.

Mark

Further Reading

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