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Message no. 1
From: pgrosse@********.com (Paul Grosse)
Subject: Consoles in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 13:18:01 -0500
>
> Now before this turns into a big debate about which system is
> best and why
> this and that, remember that there are other mailing list,
> message boards,
> and websites devoted to this. My first statement was just
> pointing out that
> we're not the only ones (Shadowrun Role-players) that would
> like an SR video
> game, others would like one too.
>

Well to put this back on track. Do you think that there are consoles
(as we know them) in the Shadowrun universe? Or do you think that they
have been replaced with suped up decks?

Paul "Yes that Paul" Grosse
PCGen OGL Gibbon
ICQ: 14397299
AO: Nylan
Various forums: Nylan (or Nylanfs)

"The Earth is just too small and fragile a basket for the human race
to keep all it's eggs in." - Robert Heinlein
Message no. 2
From: shadowrun@********.net (Augustus)
Subject: Consoles in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 11:36:06 -0700
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Grosse" <pgrosse@********.com>
To: "ShadowRN (E-mail)" <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 11:18 AM
Subject: Consoles in Shadowrun
>
> Well to put this back on track. Do you think that there are consoles
> (as we know them) in the Shadowrun universe? Or do you think that they
> have been replaced with suped up decks?
>

Presumably there are simsense games, matrix games, etc...

But for whatever reason (magical, financial, ethical, moral, religious, etc)
not everybody has a datajack... Then when you consider the primary target
market of consoles probably wouldn't have changed (13-18 year olds) and that
it doesn't seem plausible to install cyberware in a still growing body then
one could presume that some kind of console game system still exists.
Message no. 3
From: davidb@****.imcprint.com (Graht)
Subject: Consoles in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 13:39:11 -0600
At 11:36 AM 5/21/2003 -0700, Augustus wrote:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Paul Grosse" <pgrosse@********.com>
>To: "ShadowRN (E-mail)" <shadowrn@*********.com>
>Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 11:18 AM
>Subject: Consoles in Shadowrun
> >
> > Well to put this back on track. Do you think that there are consoles
> > (as we know them) in the Shadowrun universe? Or do you think that they
> > have been replaced with suped up decks?
> >
>
>Presumably there are simsense games, matrix games, etc...
>
>But for whatever reason (magical, financial, ethical, moral, religious, etc)
>not everybody has a datajack... Then when you consider the primary target
>market of consoles probably wouldn't have changed (13-18 year olds) and that
>it doesn't seem plausible to install cyberware in a still growing body then
>one could presume that some kind of console game system still exists.

I would guess that the vast majority of people have datajacks. They are
relatively cheap and give an employee such an advantage (or an employee
without one is at such a disadvantage) that it would seem to me that almost
everyone in the middle class income bracket would have one. The lower/poor
income class would probably also have datajacks if nothing else than to
watch simsense and/or enable chip addiction. I could easily see chip
dealers practically giving away datajack installations in order to get new
customers (the first one is always free neh?).

And while the human body does a lot of growing from 13-18 years, the human
brain's developmental period is between birth and puberty (0~13). When
puberty starts, the brain's growth/development stalls. And all of the
physical growth is in the torso and limbs, with only minor growth in the skull.

I would rule that 99% of the games are online with some sort of
subscription service, or as a corporate benefit, or paid for by
advertising. The games would either be MMPORGs, like EverQuest, or gaming
sites like Yahoo Games, or virtual worlds (simulations of real places or
fantastic places) that people can just escape to after having spent the day
in an office cube and having come home to a home cube.

--
To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
http://www.graht.com
Message no. 4
From: mikepaff@***.rr.com (Michael Paff)
Subject: Consoles in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 13:15:16 -0700
At 12:39 PM 5/21/03, Graht wrote:
>At 11:36 AM 5/21/2003 -0700, Augustus wrote:
>
>>But for whatever reason (magical, financial, ethical, moral, religious, etc)
>>not everybody has a datajack...
>
>I would guess that the vast majority of people have datajacks. They are
>relatively cheap and give an employee such an advantage (or an employee
>without one is at such a disadvantage) that it would seem to me that
>almost everyone in the middle class income bracket would have one. The
>lower/poor income class would probably also have datajacks if nothing else
>than to watch simsense and/or enable chip addiction. I could easily see
>chip dealers practically giving away datajack installations in order to
>get new customers (the first one is always free neh?).

I remember there being mention of electrode ('trode) rigs being mentioned
in some of the Shadowrun novels. They may even have been mentioned in the
flavor text of the sourcebooks, but I don't recall any official rules for
them anywhere.

I would guess that they would perform most of the functions of a datajack,
but at a reduced price and reduced 'effectiveness', but good enough for
basic simsense functions.

Mike
Message no. 5
From: l-hansen@*****.tele.dk (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Consoles in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 22:30:35 +0200
From: "Michael Paff" <mikepaff@***.rr.com>
>
> I remember there being mention of electrode ('trode) rigs being mentioned
> in some of the Shadowrun novels. They may even have been mentioned in the
> flavor text of the sourcebooks, but I don't recall any official rules for
> them anywhere.

Matrix page 17-18:
Matrix Reaction = œ Physical Reaction
Matrix Initaitive = Matrix Reaction + a Maximum of 2D6
Takes 3 turns to put on.

Lars
Message no. 6
From: pf_mc@*****.ca (shadows within)
Subject: Consoles in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 16:48:04 -0400 (EDT)
Most people in the SR universe do not have data jacks,
or any cyberware of any kind. That's stated umpteen
times. It's one of the reasons that the runners are
not your average joes, and why they have an advantage
over most others.

Most people do not have cyberdecks. First off, they're
illegal at anything higher than a base model.
Secondly, you don't need one. The average telecom
performs all the mundane functions of a cyberdeck that
your average U2C sarariman is gonna need. As for
games, Matrix games are available to any simsense user
through a trode net via their home trid unit and/or
telecom.

And yes, consoles exist. They are talked about in
Matrix, Target:Matrix, VR2, and Shadowbeat. What
console you have and what you games you own/can access
is determined by your lifestyle.

Doesn't anybody remember the games mentioned in the
orgiginal Food Fight 'adventure'? Sitting in the
corner of the Stuffer Shack were Super Manrino Bros
23, and a rip off of either Rambo and/or Teenage
Mutant Ninja Turtles. I don't have the book with me,
otherwise I'd give the games names. They were
hilarious.

Anyway, my point is: games exist, consoles exist,
people don't have cyberware, don't need cyberware,
don't have cyberdecks, and don't need cyberdecks.
Check out Matrix, Target: Matrix, VR2, and Shadowbeat
to find out more about consoles, and the toys in your
average SR living room. The Matrix is far more than
just the internet with a VR interface, and cyberdecks
are a hell of a lot more than just your desktop pc in
an alternate futuristic setting.

====Shadow

The future is painted on a canvas of infinite reach.

______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
Message no. 7
From: davidb@****.imcprint.com (Graht)
Subject: Consoles in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 15:36:58 -0600
At 04:48 PM 5/21/2003 -0400, shadows within wrote:
>Most people in the SR universe do not have data jacks,
>or any cyberware of any kind. That's stated umpteen
>times. It's one of the reasons that the runners are
>not your average joes, and why they have an advantage
>over most others.

Yes, but gamers aren't people ;)

Seriously, most people don't have/crave the latest processor or video
card. Gamers on the other hand play a constant "game" of keeping up with
the game software. And game software strives to utilize every last bit
available technology (Unreal Tournament 2003 for example actually bogs down
the fastest gaming computer when all of the graphic/sound options are maxed
out). So, gamers do the best they can to keep up with the latest hardware.

Most gamers will probably have datajacks because most games will have the
option (and some may require it) of jacking in.

We're talking about games and gamers here, not your average joe :)

--
To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
http://www.graht.com
Message no. 8
From: pf_mc@*****.ca (shadows within)
Subject: Consoles in Shadowrun
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 05:49:43 -0700 (PDT)
> Yes, but gamers aren't people ;)

I'm a gamer. I'm not people? :(

> We're talking about games and gamers here, not your
> average joe :)

I agree that die-hards would have datajacks, and other
wiz gear to feed their addictions. Seen to much of
that in real life to say it won't happen in SR. But, I
think it's a stretch to say that gamers, no matter how
hooked, will get/use cyberdecks to play.

No one would spend that kind of money on an illegal
system when it's not at all necessary - a simple
datajack or trode set will give them all that the game
is geared to provide. A 'hot' cyberdeck is sending a
signal to the user's brain that's akin to a BTL. If
the game isn't putting out BTL level signals then
having a deck is just a waste. And spending the money
on a cold deck is just plain stupid if your just using
it as a Matrix game console, there's no point to that.

Most people have simsense for this stuff. Whether they
use a datakack, mastoid implant, or trode net, a
cyberdeck is waaaaaaaaaaaaay more than they need or
probably want to pay for. A far cheaper telecom, set
up as a gaming station, can conceivably outperform a
deck in that regard, and is far cheaper. The advantage
of a deck isn't its computing power or ability to play
games, its the fact that it doesn't leave a Matrix
trail after the decker performs a graceful logoff (and
only on a deck does a decker have that option). Decks
are for being an SR hacker, not a gamer.

The only reason you'd need a deck to play a game is if
you want to deck into an online Matrix game host and
rig the game. This is done, but the thrill isn't the
game, it's the rush of beating the system. The game is
completely secondary.

OK, enough ranting. Soapbox mode off.

I play a decker (surprise), so I kinda get peeved by
this stuff.

====Shadow

The future is painted on a canvas of infinite reach.

__________________________________
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The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com
Message no. 9
From: pentaj2@****.edu (Penta John C)
Subject: Consoles in Shadowrun
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 09:35:30 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: shadows within <pf_mc@*****.ca>
Date: Thursday, May 22, 2003 8:49 am
Subject: Re: Consoles in Shadowrun

> Most people have simsense for this stuff. Whether they
> use a datakack, mastoid implant, or trode net, a
> cyberdeck is waaaaaaaaaaaaay more than they need or
> probably want to pay for.

What's a mastoid implant? Where could I find more SR info on it?

John
Message no. 10
From: davidb@****.imcprint.com (Graht)
Subject: Consoles in Shadowrun
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 07:40:53 -0600
At 05:49 AM 5/22/2003 -0700, shadows within wrote:
> > Yes, but gamers aren't people ;)
>
>I'm a gamer. I'm not people? :(

Ever been to a gaming convention where gamers are displayed in all their
g(l)ory? ;)

And yes, I'm a gamer too :)

> > We're talking about games and gamers here, not your
> > average joe :)
>
>I agree that die-hards would have datajacks, and other
>wiz gear to feed their addictions. Seen to much of
>that in real life to say it won't happen in SR. But, I
>think it's a stretch to say that gamers, no matter how
>hooked, will get/use cyberdecks to play.

On that I agree. I'm just talking about datajacks :)

--
To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
http://www.graht.com
Message no. 11
From: pf_mc@*****.ca (shadows within)
Subject: Consoles in Shadowrun
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 09:43:18 -0400 (EDT)
> What's a mastoid implant? Where could I find more SR
> info on it?

It's from SR1, in the original rulebook. They are
described under the Lifestyle section of the Gear
chapeter (pp.124, and 138). They cost 1000 nuyen, and
0.1 essence. Thy're speakers in your head. I recall
somewhere (this part I can't remember exactly) that
they are also used by BTL junkies for a more comlete experience.

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Message no. 12
From: pf_mc@*****.ca (shadows within)
Subject: Consoles in Shadowrun
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 09:53:51 -0400 (EDT)
> Ever been to a gaming convention where gamers are
> displayed in all their
> g(l)ory? ;)

heh, no ... but I can only imagine. ;)

BTW, those games I mentioned from Food Fight? I quote
'... four simsense arcade games (1 nuyen per minute.
Just insert a credstick and put on the
'trodes.)Current titles are: "Little Mutant Vik Ninja
Cyberboy!", "Orbittal Ninja Death Commando", "Ultimate
Bike Race Ninja Street Duel", and "Super Mareno
Brothers LXXVIII".

That always killed me. I love that little game. And
the stuffers ... LOL!

====Shadow

The future is painted on a canvas of infinite reach.

______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
Message no. 13
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Consoles in Shadowrun
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 19:07:58 +0100
At 01:49 PM 22/5/2003, Shadows Within wrote:
>I agree that die-hards would have datajacks, and other
>wiz gear to feed their addictions. Seen to much of
>that in real life to say it won't happen in SR. But, I
>think it's a stretch to say that gamers, no matter how
>hooked, will get/use cyberdecks to play.

Unless they already have 'decks, probably for other purposes, one of my
players (playing a decker) has the full library of Atari classics, Pong,
Space Invaders...etc in the ac mem of his Kraftwerk :D

>No one would spend that kind of money on an illegal
>system when it's not at all necessary - a simple
>datajack or trode set will give them all that the game
>is geared to provide. A 'hot' cyberdeck is sending a
>signal to the user's brain that's akin to a BTL. If
>the game isn't putting out BTL level signals then
>having a deck is just a waste. And spending the money
>on a cold deck is just plain stupid if your just using
>it as a Matrix game console, there's no point to that.

OTOH the cost of a high grade Simplayer (eg the Trueman Paradiso IIRC) is
high enough that if you're playing total immersion games a Sony Abacus is a
viable alternative if you can get it to read the program, not because it's
a better way of playing games like that but because of the other options it
gives you.

>I play a decker (surprise), so I kinda get peeved by
>this stuff.

I'm also a decker player so I hope I'm not peeving you further :p


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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Message no. 14
From: pf_mc@*****.ca (shadows within)
Subject: Consoles in Shadowrun
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 14:30:49 -0400 (EDT)
> >I play a decker (surprise), so I kinda get peeved
> by
> >this stuff.
>
> I'm also a decker player so I hope I'm not peeving
> you further :p

Nope. There's never enough talk about decking on this
list. It's all 'guns this' and 'drones that.' ;)

I can see a decker, who happens to be a gamer, using
his deck to play games. I should probably have said
that I assumed they did. I just think it's a little
silly for a gamer to buy a deck just to play a game.
You make an interesting point about the Abacus though.
I suppose that some gamers *could* by a low-end deck
to play their bleeding edge games on, but they're far
from utilizing all that even a low-grade decker has to
offer.

This of course assumes that games in SR are not
console specific. It's reasonable to assume that they
can all be played online, but game and console makers
have nothing stopping them from putting out exclusive
game titles. Every system ever released has done that.

Hmmm, now that gives me an idea: maybe a ticked decked
hacks the host belonging to a game maker, steals the
files for his fav game, retools it, and posts it as a
game that can be played on any system. Hah. Now that's
using a deck to play a game.


====Shadow

The future is painted on a canvas of infinite reach.

______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
Message no. 15
From: jameserec@*****.ca (Kato Combat Cabbie)
Subject: Consoles in Shadowrun
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 17:35:31 -0400 (EDT)
--- shadows within <pf_mc@*****.ca> wrote: > > >I
play a decker (surprise), so I kinda get peeved
> > by
> > >this stuff.
> >
> > I'm also a decker player so I hope I'm not peeving
> > you further :p
>
> Nope. There's never enough talk about decking on
> this
> list. It's all 'guns this' and 'drones that.' ;)
>

Now I know you are just trying to push my buttons here
:p Well you have suceeded... I'm sure that you meant
to say "guns this and magic that." There is obviously
not enough rigger/drone content on the list. So don't
get me started! ;)

====Kato Combat Cabbie

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