Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Corporate Power (was: Killing in Shadowrun)
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 14:30:38 +0100
>>UCAS nationalizes the telecommunications network. If Renraku puts up a fight
>>the military will be more then happy to deal with it. In fact after Chicago
>>I woudln't be surprised if there was a backup communications network
>>controlled by the goverment to be used in case of just such emergencies..
>
>It can't nationalise the telecomm network, they already lost their shot at
>ever nationalising any megacorporate asset when they lost the Shiawase
>decision. The UCAS shot it's own foot.

It's called "invasion". "We're sorry, you're in breach of your contract
with us and national security requires urgent action."

>Why destroy? That'd be stupid, which corps aren't. Just shut them down for
>a little bit (about an hour at most should be the end of any threat) and
>then you're back in business, charging the UCAS government extra for the
>time that their people didn't have access to power and smiling all the way.

"Excuse me? Shiawase, Renraku, Gaiatronics? We have a lapsed contract
for power supply. Care to bid?" Or, push it hard enough and the
government forms UCAS Power, Light and Telecoms to provide their own,
then starts competing against you. You re-invigorate the governments and
make them into powers to reckon with again, rather than old tired lions
to tiptoe around. Not a good thing.

>You clearly have no idea how powerful corporations are in SR. Either that
>or you play a game where they are like they are in 1996. Now for more
>interesting bits of knowledge: who made those stealth aircraft for the
>UCAS? A corp.

Yep: quite possibly one owned by the UCAS, or dependent on it for most
of its business. The UCAS buys a lot more fighter aircraft than any
corporation. And, so Corp X really pisses off the UCAS. The others sigh,
sit back; and decide to wait, watch the fireworks, grab X's lost market
share and bid for the repair/replacement contracts.

Again, governments are weak. Not totally supine. They have the means to
hurt individual corporations, quite badly in some cases. If a
corporation overextends itself, it may find itself in trouble,
especially if the others decide it's acted carelessly and decline to
back it.

>Now would they make something that could come back and hurt
>them? No, they aren't stupid.

Yup, yup, America would never hand hundreds of Stinger missiles over to
fanatical Islamic terrorists, send HAWKs and TOWs and aircraft parts to
Iran, nobody ever sold arms to Iraq.

And there are still places like China Lake, Porton Down, ARE Portsdown,
today. You have these all-powerful corporations, wouldn't you want some
sort of equaliser?

>Next, security for corp installations of
>comparable to that of military installations, at least in a 2057 campaign it
>is. Any act of war on any corp by any nation will lead to the corps
>dropping Thor-shots on that country's capital until the country realizes
>that it is really, totally screwed.

THOR-shots on the capital. "Corporation massacres thousands!" "THOR
bombs kill hundreds in schoolyard carnage!" "Hospital destroyed in
orbital bombardment, Chairman 'expresses regret' at 'accident'".

You drop a THOR on my capital, I put missiles into Zurich-Orbital, or
just lob a few tons of gravel into an intersecting orbit. Adios
muchachos, assholes.

And those THOR packages, hanging there in plotted orbits... vulnerable
to a first strike. Oh, my.

>You've missed a great deal of SR info in assuming that a nuclear strike is
>possible. First, the NAN shut down a previous attempt at just that using
>magic. Next, nuclear weapons are forbidden to own in 2057. Forbidden, as
>in breaking of treaty type of forbidden. Which means every company out
>there as well as every corp nails the UCAS hard and fast and before the
>first missile clears it's silo, the UCAS is ash.

Sure, like nuclear proliferation is treaty forbidden today and Iraq was
nowhere near testing a nuclear weapon in 1991. Like chemical weapons are
illegal, and nations manufacturing and using them get eradicated totally
the way Libya, Iran, Iraq, all have been.

And what was that loud noise in Chicago? Someone lighting his farts?
Ares and Saeder-Krupp at least are reputed to have nuclear weapons. So
will the UCAS. So will Britain, Russia, France and China.

What are "all nations" going to throw at the UCAS? As for all
corporations... well, if you start throwing THOR shots at cities, you're
murdering thousands or millions of citizens, and a nation that can't
protect its citizens has lost its last raison d'etre. Besides, the
corporation dropping THORs is eliminating its competitors' customers and
costing them money.

>>CAS and UCAS arn't at war, CAS and Aztlan on the other hand. If UCAS ever
>>really wanted to ruin Aztechnologys day all they need to do is give CAS
>>military support in the retaking of Austin.
>
>You really haven't caught up on 2057. CAS and UCAS are currently on the
>brink of a major war. Aztlan has had problems with Texas before, but hasn't
>done much to the CAS aside from that. Texas still isn't sure if it wants to
>be CAS anyway.

Texas doesn't want to be CAS because they wouldn't help retake the
territory Aztlan annexed: they rejoined when they couldn't break the
stalemate. That, to me, suggests that they still want Austin back.

>>UCAS has the problem that it can't retaliate in small incriment when
>>fighting a corp it's an all or nothing proposition. The corps should
>>remember this when trying to figure just how far they can push UCAS.
>
>It can't retaliate at all in 2057 without losing every single thing it has.
>That's my point. Truth as the game sets it up, not my opinion.

Try Corporate Shadowfiles, page 59. Sounds like the UCAS flexing its
muscles against corporations to me: Metroplex Guard fighters forcing
transports to land, and in one case allegedly shooting one down.

Corporations ended outright defiance and maintained a facade of
compliance instead. The UCAS doesn't have the muscle to do more than,
allegly, use IRS agents and shadowrunners to try and disprove the
reports from the corporations, but when faced with open defiance they
reacted with armed force and even Aztechnology backed down.

Why? Because war is expensive and bad for business. Cheaper to comply
than to soak losses.

Oh, and another check. "No corporation fields more than a full regiment
of military forces." (CS, page 113). That's combined arms land, air, sea
and sometimes space: two thousand troops, total. Not a lot. You market
your military gear to nations or you can't afford to develop it, and
some fields of warfare you just cannot compete in. That's military
reality. Yes, you have thousands more security guards, but they by and
large aren't military and CS makes that clear too. If you're going to
quote books, so am I :)

"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 2
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Corporate Power (was: Killing in Shadowrun)
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 14:42:16 -0500
At 02:30 PM 5/26/96 +0100, Paul wrote:
>>>UCAS nationalizes the telecommunications network. If Renraku puts up a fight
>>>the military will be more then happy to deal with it. In fact after Chicago
>>>I woudln't be surprised if there was a backup communications network
>>>controlled by the goverment to be used in case of just such emergencies..
>>It can't nationalise the telecomm network, they already lost their shot at
>>ever nationalising any megacorporate asset when they lost the Shiawase
>>decision. The UCAS shot it's own foot.
>It's called "invasion". "We're sorry, you're in breach of your contract
>with us and national security requires urgent action."

Now it's time where I explain how this part of the thread got started. UCAS
decides it needs to teach a corp a lesson because it had an operative in the
UCAS. So it decides to go to war with the corp (Stephen started this little
tidbit, I believe). Quite a bit far fetched, but it needs to be carried out.

Now, what would happen? The corps see a chance for them to bring a market
to it's knees. Tons of money to be made in rebuilding. The UCAS is arming
up the few nukes it has left. Corporate court will nail them with their
(non-nuclear and thus legal by treaty measures) equivalent (thor-shots) if
that happens, it won't because nobody is stupid enough to do it. They'll
also cut power, supply, and telecommunications to the UCAS (selling off the
now excess supplies like food to more needy countries that'll pay gladly for
it). Corporations offer incentives to other countries to support their
efforts against the offending UCAS. These other countries also see it as a
way to finally get even with the former big-boy on the block. So they join
in. The UCAS finds itself facing combined CC and UN forces within a month.
They can write a suicide pact and start launching their nukes (which may or
may not work and would bring down the thor-shots as described above) or they
can sign a treaty and lose a huge amount of their power (most likely the
possession of any military force). They'll take the latter.

Another fun thing that could happen, the UCAS uses Ares weapons. Now, what
if every single piece of Ares technology suddenly stopped working. Ares
builds a little fail-safe into the toys and presses a shiny red button on a
desk somewhere and the UCAS military finds itself with a sudden and
near-total lack of equipment. (This happened in David Gerrold's series and
sounds like a wonderful thing to do. It was used by the US gov't on the
Mexican gov't forces in that example and won a war without a shot being fired).

For great examples on how things like this could/would happen, check out The
War Against the Ch'torr series by David Gerrold and the book Hardwired by
Walter J. Williams (I think it was him). Countries hate each other as much
as any megacorp hates it's rivals. For an example on how the UCAS has bowed
to corporate power before, check out House of the Sun (I think that Paradise
Lost also has info on this).

Why would the corps wish to band together if a country decided to attack one
of them? Because it sets a bad precedent if the corp goes down, that's why.
Sure, you gain market share, but now the UCAS feels like it can take on any
corp and you didn't side with the CC last time, why should it side with you
when your neck's on the block? Why give up everything you've worked to get
since the corp started to see a rival of yours go down? If you band
together to support your livelihoods against those who would take them away,
then you set a good precedent and you get a chance to show an upstart the
error of his ways.

>Oh, and another check. "No corporation fields more than a full regiment
>of military forces." (CS, page 113). That's combined arms land, air, sea
>and sometimes space: two thousand troops, total. Not a lot. You market
>your military gear to nations or you can't afford to develop it, and
>some fields of warfare you just cannot compete in. That's military
>reality. Yes, you have thousands more security guards, but they by and
>large aren't military and CS makes that clear too. If you're going to
>quote books, so am I :)

Fields and possesses are two different things.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 3
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Corporate Power (was: Killing in Shadowrun)
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 22:39:20 +0100
In message <9605261942.AC20031@**.cencom.net>, TopCat
<topcat@******.net> writes
>At 02:30 PM 5/26/96 +0100, Paul wrote:
>>>>UCAS nationalizes the telecommunications network. If Renraku puts up a
fight
>>>>the military will be more then happy to deal with it. In fact after
Chicago
>>>>I woudln't be surprised if there was a backup communications network
>>>>controlled by the goverment to be used in case of just such emergencies..
>>>It can't nationalise the telecomm network, they already lost their shot at
>>>ever nationalising any megacorporate asset when they lost the Shiawase
>>>decision. The UCAS shot it's own foot.
>>It's called "invasion". "We're sorry, you're in breach of your
contract
>>with us and national security requires urgent action."
>
>Now it's time where I explain how this part of the thread got started. UCAS
>decides it needs to teach a corp a lesson because it had an operative in the
>UCAS. So it decides to go to war with the corp (Stephen started this little
>tidbit, I believe). Quite a bit far fetched, but it needs to be carried out.

No, the corps had operatives killing people in UCAS territory, the UCAS
took diplomatic or political measures to protest, and the corporation
shut off lights/power/food/whatever.

What caused Pearl Harbour? An oil embargo on Japan. They couldn't buy it
so they decided to take it, and they had to prevent the US Pacific Fleet
from interfering.

>Now, what would happen? The corps see a chance for them to bring a market
>to it's knees. Tons of money to be made in rebuilding. The UCAS is arming
>up the few nukes it has left. Corporate court will nail them with their
>(non-nuclear and thus legal by treaty measures) equivalent (thor-shots)

So the problem of tracking a SSBN has gotten simpler, despite the fact
that the corporations don't operate any serious submarine force
themselves? If you don't know where it is you can't kill it. You don't
know where it is until the missiles break the surface.

>if
>that happens, it won't because nobody is stupid enough to do it. They'll
>also cut power, supply, and telecommunications to the UCAS (selling off the
>now excess supplies like food to more needy countries that'll pay gladly for
>it). Corporations offer incentives to other countries to support their
>efforts against the offending UCAS. These other countries also see it as a
>way to finally get even with the former big-boy on the block. So they join
>in. The UCAS finds itself facing combined CC and UN forces within a month.

Why does this not work for countries vs. corps? "Get even with the big
boy on the block..." That sounds like kicking a corporation, not
harassing the UCAS. The corporation (it would only be one: no nation
would oppose the combined Court) involved in the dispute has mobilised
its military and security assets to defend against the UCAS, weakening
it in other sectors. Some competitors see a chance to attack it, rather
than the UCAS. Other corps pointedly stay out, to improve their chances
of winning the reconstruction contracts. One or two might side with the
UCAS in exchange for trade or tax concessions.

Sure, if a nation decided "Nice sunny morning, good day to declare war
on the entire Corporate Court" their lifespan is measured in minutes.
But in a case of one corporation versus a government, the corporation
better have got Court approval for what it was doing or it's on its own.

>Another fun thing that could happen, the UCAS uses Ares weapons. Now, what
>if every single piece of Ares technology suddenly stopped working. Ares
>builds a little fail-safe into the toys and presses a shiny red button on a
>desk somewhere and the UCAS military finds itself with a sudden and
>near-total lack of equipment. (This happened in David Gerrold's series and
>sounds like a wonderful thing to do. It was used by the US gov't on the
>Mexican gov't forces in that example and won a war without a shot being fired).

Which is one major reason for the UCAS developing weapon systems in-
house. Look at the size of corporate militaries compared to the UCAS
force: how much of an air force can any corporation have? One fighter
aircraft equals fifteen to twenty men in ground crew and support staff,
minimum. You need the aircraft, sensors, A/A and A/G weapons... *all*
in-house? You develop all this in order to build half-a-dozen? That
gives you a cost in the hundreds of millions per airframe for an unarmed
aircraft. Ouch.

Also, the UCAS buys an Ares system and it doesn't go over it with a
microscope looking for just such a bug? If it found one, Ares has been
proved to deliberately sell defective product. End of Ares market share
in the world arms market. Embarrasing.

>Why would the corps wish to band together if a country decided to attack one
>of them? Because it sets a bad precedent if the corp goes down, that's why.

If the corp acts stupidly, like be too obvious in its operations, it
deserves what it gets. Nations need a lot of goading before they act
against corporations: if you kick an elephant in the ass long enough you
get shat upon, and it's nobody's fault but your own. Your corp wouldn't
be that stupid, and wouldn't push that hard.

Why would nations allow a corporation to slap a nation around openly?
They wouldn't, because it sets a bad precedent. "We're sorry, but your
conflict with the UCAS makes your sites a security risk and we have to
interdict all traffic. As soon as the conflict is resolved we can lift
this, which is entirely for the protection of your good selves. No,
we're not picking on you, we've sealed off the UCAS Embassy too."

>Sure, you gain market share, but now the UCAS feels like it can take on any
>corp and you didn't side with the CC last time, why should it side with you
>when your neck's on the block?

Because you stayed out on condition that your assets were left alone,
and because you don't intend to get caught the way the corporation under
attack did, and don't plan to push the way they did. Because the Court
isn't entirely happy with what the corporation did, and considers
witholding backing for a while to be a useful tactic. "If you had
discussed and agreed your plan with us, we would have helped you and
backed you to the hilt. Instead, you decided to go it alone. Suffer the
consequences of that, since you decided so clearly that you did not
require our consent or our assistance." It reinforces the Court's power,
when they finally come in and resolve the situation in minutes.

Corporations do not go against governments, because they would get stuck
with all the unprofitable jobs of running a nation. A corporation that
does, is not going to be popular on the Court, and they will want to
reinforce that message.

>>Oh, and another check. "No corporation fields more than a full regiment
>>of military forces." (CS, page 113). That's combined arms land, air, sea
>>and sometimes space: two thousand troops, total. Not a lot. You market
>>your military gear to nations or you can't afford to develop it, and
>>some fields of warfare you just cannot compete in. That's military
>>reality. Yes, you have thousands more security guards, but they by and
>>large aren't military and CS makes that clear too. If you're going to
>>quote books, so am I :)
>
>Fields and possesses are two different things.

Sure. The UCAS has a light carrier in Lake Michgan. To clear the St.
Lawrence at the moment, that makes the Wolverine about 20,000 tons,
though she could be bigger if the StLS has been widened. Even a 16,000-
ton CVS like HMS Invincible has a crew of 1400.

One of those eats three-quarters of your "fielded" force in a bite: add
in three destroyers or frigates for escort and that's your entire force
tied up. You did want air and land forces, didn't you?


If the UCAS closes the sea lanes, you can THOR Washington all you like.
Your cargoes are not moving by sea, they're heading for the bottom. Very
expensive, very bad for business, and those SSNs are carrying out their
last order, which is to interdict all corporation X traffic: you just
THORed the 'off' switch for the war.

If the Corporate Court gangs against the UCAS, the UCAS has the means to
destroy Zurich-Orbital: after all, they can destroy us utterly any time
they want to, right? Wipe them out before they can give the launch
order, take out as many THOR birds as you can in the meantime. They're
going to destroy us anyway, what's to lose?

The bottom line is nations win wars better than corporations, and the
Corporate Court exists to prevent wars: both by coercing nations, and by
either keeping individual corporations in line, or allowing them to get
somewhat chewed if they disregard Court guidelines.


"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 4
From: Stephen Delear <shadow@***.com>
Subject: Re: Corporate Power (was: Killing in Shadowrun)
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 00:39:30 -0500 (CDT)
On Sun, 26 May 1996, TopCat wrote:

>
> Now, what would happen? The corps see a chance for them to bring a market
> to it's knees. Tons of money to be made in rebuilding. The UCAS is arming
> up the few nukes it has left. Corporate court will nail them with their
> (non-nuclear and thus legal by treaty measures) equivalent (thor-shots) if
> that happens, it won't because nobody is stupid enough to do it. They'll
> also cut power, supply, and telecommunications to the UCAS (selling off the
> now excess supplies like food to more needy countries that'll pay gladly for
> it).

This is the point of no return once the corps start threatening vital
national services no commander in his right mind is going to recomend
a cease-fire untill those services are firmly under goverment controll.
If they don't then they have compromised national security much more
totally then if DC simply got blown off the map.

> Corporations offer incentives to other countries to support their
> efforts against the offending UCAS. These other countries also see it as a
> way to finally get even with the former big-boy on the block. So they join
> in.

At what price though? Millions of there own troops dead? You
invade UCAS and it's going to make Iwo Gema look like a walk in the park.
And even if you capture some territory holding it's going to be a bitch
you can find weapons on the streets of UCAS that even some millitaries
don't have. Tell me do you really want to put your rigime on the line on
the chance that you'll defeat one of the most powerfull nations on the
planet, especially when aiding in the attack would mean virtually handing
your country over to the corps. Sorry the world dosn't work that way and
neither dose the international balance of power in 205X.

> The UCAS finds itself facing combined CC and UN forces within a month.

Meanwhile UCAS has nationalised all the corporate assets it can get it's
hands on doubled the size of it's army and indoctrinated it citizens that
this is armagedon and if they lose they'll be slaves to the corps for the
rest of there lives.

> They can write a suicide pact and start launching their nukes (which
may or
> may not work and would bring down the thor-shots as described above) or they
> can sign a treaty and lose a huge amount of their power (most likely the
> possession of any military force). They'll take the latter.

No they do neither they stand and fight and see how much backbone the corps
have. Besides you don't need nukes to do massive damage.
>
> Another fun thing that could happen, the UCAS uses Ares weapons. Now, what
> if every single piece of Ares technology suddenly stopped working. Ares
> builds a little fail-safe into the toys and presses a shiny red button on a
> desk somewhere and the UCAS military finds itself with a sudden and
> near-total lack of equipment. (This happened in David Gerrold's series and
> sounds like a wonderful thing to do. It was used by the US gov't on the
> Mexican gov't forces in that example and won a war without a shot being fired).
>

The US military all ready makes checks for this kind of sabotage I find
it unlikely that they'll be any less paranoid in 205X.

> For great examples on how things like this could/would happen, check out The
> War Against the Ch'torr series by David Gerrold and the book Hardwired by
> Walter J. Williams (I think it was him). Countries hate each other as much
> as any megacorp hates it's rivals. For an example on how the UCAS has bowed
> to corporate power before, check out House of the Sun (I think that Paradise
> Lost also has info on this).

Don't have the books so I'm going to have to take your word for it.
>
> Why would the corps wish to band together if a country decided to attack one
> of them? Because it sets a bad precedent if the corp goes down, that's why.
> Sure, you gain market share, but now the UCAS feels like it can take on any
> corp and you didn't side with the CC last time, why should it side with you
> when your neck's on the block? Why give up everything you've worked to get
> since the corp started to see a rival of yours go down? If you band
> together to support your livelihoods against those who would take them away,
> then you set a good precedent and you get a chance to show an upstart the
> error of his ways.

Yes but if things don't go your way your going to losse a whole lot
more. Politicians can the bought no amount of money can cover over a
war. They fight the UCAS and even if they win there problems don't go
away.

>
> >Oh, and another check. "No corporation fields more than a full regiment
> >of military forces." (CS, page 113). That's combined arms land, air, sea
> >and sometimes space: two thousand troops, total. Not a lot. You market
> >your military gear to nations or you can't afford to develop it, and
> >some fields of warfare you just cannot compete in. That's military
> >reality. Yes, you have thousands more security guards, but they by and
> >large aren't military and CS makes that clear too. If you're going to
> >quote books, so am I :)
>
> Fields and possesses are two different things.

I doubt the corps can put together more then a quarter million troops,
UCAS has more then twice that number and much more of the really heavy
weapons.

>
> -------------------------------------
> "I was thinking of the immortal words
> of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
> -- Real Genius
> -------------------------------------
> TopCat at the bottom...
>
>
Stephen

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Corporate Power (was: Killing in Shadowrun), you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!