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Message no. 1
From: I Ryan Bowers <s21735@***.CA>
Subject: corporate wars and desert wars
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 12:36:03 -0500
Does anyone know anymore about desert warsÉ I know it has been mentioned in
several source books, NAN I and FoF.

Thanks

Airwasp wrote:

> In a message dated 98-03-30 20:28:33 EST, you write:
>
> > As the subject suggests I'm intrested in Hostile takeovers
> > I am planning a campign involving a corp war/conventional war between Ares/
> > CAS and
> > Aztechnology/Aztlan
> > know i know how to run a conventional war (at least in my own deluded mind
> > that is) but
> > what i am really intrested in is the corporate war
>
> <snip a bunch>
>
> Okay, I had something like this kick in a while back in the home game, and had
> some interesting conversations with some of the people in the game, trying to
> understand more of what might happen in the situation of both Ares and
> Aztechnology. What came out was this, the Corporate Courts told Ares and
> Aztechnology to act as resources for providing material and the like to their
> respective sides, but they could not actively participate in war by putting in
> their corporate forces into the mess.
>
> The reason for this decision was somewhat simple, none of the other megacorps
> want for another megacorp to destroy another and then take all of the others
> assets as their own, it would give the winning corp too much power, so, by
> tying in their ability to function to the nation, which does not have the same
> resource level as the megacorp, they would have an influence on the was, but
> not a truely heavy influence at all. And I know the above sentence made
> almost no sense at all.
>
> And if Aztechnology and Ares were both behind the war, then perhaps the
> megacorps would step into the fray, commanding the two nations to cease the
> combat or suffer economic consequences resulting from an Omega Order banning
> legal trade with both countries and the hold on all assets of the megacorps
> from the Geimmenshaft Bank on ZO. I would see one of the biggest Desert Wars
> ever performed, with Ares and Aztechnology both putting a set number of
> resource points into the amount of toys and soldiers they could put on the
> battlefield. This would also have an added effect in the merchandising,
> advertising, and trid rights that would ensue for all of the megacorps
> involved, this way everyone makes some cred off of the battle and Ares and
> Aztechnology both knock the frag out of each other.
>
> Sounds funny does it not ?
>
> Mike
Message no. 2
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: corporate wars and desert wars
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 13:07:30 -0500
On Tue, Mar 31, 1998 at 12:36:03PM -0500, I Ryan Bowers wrote:
> Does anyone know anymore about desert warsÉ I know it has been mentioned in
> several source books, NAN I and FoF.
>
Make sure to quote after the message by the way. Its also
mentioned in Shadowfiles and NA Guide to Real Life I believe.
Basically two corps originally did it to settle a dispute. The media
rights were almost worth more then the dispute, so now corps participate
on a regular basis. Usually takes place in some barren stretch of
Africa, and their personell rotate through. Big money maker and
gives the troops experience.
I've used it for background material but never based a campaign around
it.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Uh-Oh Toto, it doesn't look like we're gods anymore."
Message no. 3
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: corporate wars and desert wars
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 13:53:38 -0500
At 12:36 PM 3/31/98 -0500, you wrote:

>> > As the subject suggests I'm intrested in Hostile takeovers
>> > I am planning a campign involving a corp war/conventional war between
Ares/
>> > CAS and
>> > Aztechnology/Aztlan
>> > know i know how to run a conventional war (at least in my own deluded
mind
>> > that is) but
>> > what i am really intrested in is the corporate war

I know the corporate wars story line that is breaking right now might
change things, but I really don't see Ares and Aztechnology going head to
head.

I see this conflict as more like the Spanish War of the 1930's. That was,
for the most part, a proxy war between the United States and the Soviet
Union. Neither the US nor the USSR got their hands directly dirty, but
they did supply weapons and supplies and such.

This would work for your conflict, with one major change. Since
Aztechnology pretty much *is* Aztlan, those forces would be tied very
closely together. Aztlan troops would be the regular groundpounders, the
Aztechnology soldiers would be the "elite" troops, sort of like the Nazi
SS. And I'm sure practically all of their gear would have the Aztechnology
logo on it.

On the other side, you would have the CAS taking the brunt of the the Azzie
assault. But providing the CAS with oodles of guns, tanks, armor and cyber
would be Ares. Probably at a cut rate. Ares would probably also supply
"advisors" and "trainers" for those toys that CAS has bought.

You'd also need to factor in the reactions of the NAN, CalFree, and the
UCAS; nothing happens in a vacuum you know. The UCAS would probably help
out the CAS in what ways it could, like military advisors, economic
assistance, whatever. But I don't see direct UCAS troup action unless the
CAS was getting overrun. Then you could bet your sweet arse they would get
more directly involved. The same could probably be said of Pueblo and
maybe some of the other NAN nations. While the NAN at one time was allied
with Aztlan (and wasn't Aztlan a part of NAN early on?), there clearly is
no love lost between them right now and Pueblo seems to enjoy antangonizing
Aztlan. CalFree would probably just do it's best to make sure the conflict
didn't spill over into their territory. They're having a hard enough time
without having to get into a major border war.

Tir Tairngire would likely be neutral, with maybe covert economic
assistance to the CAS. Other nations, like England and Amazonia, would
probably also supply economic assistance to the CAS. Japan, since it is
essentially controlled by the "Japanacorps" would probably condemn Aztlans
actions but that would be about it; that way they appease Ares somewhat and
don't make too much of an enemy of Aztechnology. The rest of the world
would probably merely condem the aggressor nation and/or ignore it.

And what about the other megacorps? The "Japanacorps" like I said would
likely keep their noses mostly clean on this, unless it started to look
like it would tip the balance of the Big-8 or affect them directly.
Saeder-Krupp supposedly doesn't like anything Azzie; I see Lofwyr doing
extremely subtle things to help out the CAS, like dropping prices on SK
products in the CAS, making increased efforts to chew into Azzie markets in
Europe and Asia (away from the direct conflict), sending a few extra
shadowrunners to disrupt Azzie operations, again in Europe and Asia away
from the conflict. At the same time SK makes life for Aztechnology that
much harder in general and depriving them of needed cash flow, SK gets to
increase it's market share.

Oh, by economic assistance I mean things like medical and humanitarian aid
(not striclty economic, but just work with it for now), loans at a
favorable rate, some block grants, temporary reduction of some tariffs and
whatever else that might help keep the CAS economy alive long enough to
fight off the Azzies. All of which would create economic opportunities for
these countries/companies in the CAS after the war...

Now, if you really want a corporate war, that's something else entirely. I
would wait until reading the novel "Technobabel" and the adventure "Blood
in the Boardroom" before launching into a corporate war.

Again, cold-drug induced ramblings, so take them with a grain of salt.

Erik J.
Message no. 4
From: "J.G. du Chatinier" <chatin@*******.NL>
Subject: Re: corporate wars and desert wars
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 21:31:22 +0200
At 13:53 31/03/1998 -0500, you wrote:
<<KASNIPPETYSNIPPAMEGASNIP!>>
-uhum-
After reading the last post by Eric Jameson, I wondered one thing... Isn't
Aztech in a bad, bad, bad position.. almost all the facts you told were
against them... I didn't see you saying everybody would be directly
attacking them, but when it's all summarized, it would make quite a heavy
blow...
But, I don't know much about the SR-world, so maybe I'm just plain wrong. I
do that a lot.. ;)

Just my observations..

Jod
chatin@*******.nl
http://www.euronet.nl/users/chatin/index.htm
IDM
Male

Vita Brevis
Message no. 5
From: Airwasp <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: corporate wars and desert wars
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 14:43:24 EST
In a message dated 98-03-31 12:48:08 EST, you write:

> Does anyone know anymore about desert warsÉ I know it has been mentioned in
> several source books, NAN I and FoF.

Think of Desert Wars as a game of paintball but with mil-spec toys and
vehicles and soldiers fought between various corps (and even nations) to
resolve issues between each other. Most of the time these are non-lethal
wargames, but there are the occasional 'accidental' deaths that do occur.

Some of the various issues that I know that have been resolved ...

Libel
Hostile Takeovers
For the Frag of it
Patent rights
For the Frag of It
Money

And the list goes on and on and on ...

Mike
Message no. 6
From: Airwasp <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: corporate wars and desert wars
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 14:54:24 EST
In a message dated 98-03-31 14:31:46 EST, you write:

> After reading the last post by Eric Jameson, I wondered one thing... Isn't
> Aztech in a bad, bad, bad position.. almost all the facts you told were
> against them... I didn't see you saying everybody would be directly
> attacking them, but when it's all summarized, it would make quite a heavy
> blow...
> But, I don't know much about the SR-world, so maybe I'm just plain wrong. I
> do that a lot.. ;)
>

Yes, Aztec is in a bad position, they have lost resources courtesy of what has
happened in both the Dragonheart trilogy and the aftermath of Black Madonna
(which has found an interesting solution in my game, so I'll have to see how
Koke and the others do it).

There are several things that are in the makings, there is the potential of a
religious war breaking out, as the priests of Quetzacoatl are having problems
conversing with their astral contact (which happens after the Dragonheart
saga). There is also the enlarged outbreak of the civil war.

But, should the CAS attack now, IMHO, the Aztlaners would set aside their
differences to thump the invaders ("Don't get involved in our little civil
war."), but I would see the CAS trying to supply the rebels with toys and
support, and potentially making a deal with the rebels to get back Texas
should the rebels win as the only clause.

Mike
Message no. 7
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: corporate wars and desert wars
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:24:36 -0500
At 09:31 PM 3/31/98 +0200, you wrote:
>At 13:53 31/03/1998 -0500, you wrote:
><<KASNIPPETYSNIPPAMEGASNIP!>>
>-uhum-
>After reading the last post by Eric Jameson, I wondered one thing... Isn't
>Aztech in a bad, bad, bad position.. almost all the facts you told were
>against them... I didn't see you saying everybody would be directly
>attacking them, but when it's all summarized, it would make quite a heavy
>blow...

Actually, Aztechnology isn't wouldn't be in that bad of a position. Sure,
the CAS would be getting assistance from other countries, but not much of
that would be military. On the other hand, if Aztlan is going to invade
another country, I'm willing to bet that Aztechnology will be involved in a
more than peripheral role. Which means they are going to be able to apply
more direct force on the battlefield than the CAS can. The CAS, and it's
allies/contributors, would be really forced into something of a defensive
war, fighting to maintain the status quo (which is what most of those
countries helping out the CAS in one way or another would be going for).

So you have a nation (CAS) that is being helped to survive as a nation and
a marketplace versus a country and corporation that can likely apply more
military force per square mile than the CAS can. The CAS would be in a
major jam, even with all the help from Ares and the economic & humanitarian
assistance from other countries.

Yes, there would be strong economic and political pressures against the
Azzies, but if they were willing to go to war anyway, would this matter to
them? I think the Azzies would be far more worried about the military
situation, at least in the short term.

As much as I dislike the Azzies, I actually doubt they would have been the
ones to start this conflict; the Texans seem to be really set on reclaiming
what they believe is theirs.

Erik J.
Message no. 8
From: Danyel N Woods <9604801@********.AC.NZ>
Subject: Re: corporate wars and desert wars
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:09:25 +1200
Quoth Eric Jameson (0925 1-4-98):

<<KASNIPPETYSNIPPAMEGASNIP!>>
After reading the last post by Eric Jameson, I wondered one
thing... Isn't
Aztech in a bad, bad, bad position.. almost all the facts you
told were
against them... I didn't see you saying everybody would be
directly
attacking them, but when it's all summarized, it would make
quite a heavy
blow...

Actually, Aztechnology isn't wouldn't be in that bad of a
position. Sure,
the CAS would be getting assistance from other countries, but
not much of
that would be military. On the other hand, if Aztlan is going
to invade
another country, I'm willing to bet that Aztechnology will be
involved in a
more than peripheral role. Which means they are going to be
able to apply
more direct force on the battlefield than the CAS can. The CAS,
and it's
allies/contributors, would be really forced into something of a
defensive
war, fighting to maintain the status quo (which is what most of
those
countries helping out the CAS in one way or another would be
going for).

So you have a nation (CAS) that is being helped to survive as a
nation and
a marketplace versus a country and corporation that can likely
apply more
military force per square mile than the CAS can. The CAS would
be in a
major jam, even with all the help from Ares and the economic &
humanitarian
assistance from other countries.

Yes, there would be strong economic and political pressures
against the
Azzies, but if they were willing to go to war anyway, would this
matter to
them? I think the Azzies would be far more worried about the
military
situation, at least in the short term.

As much as I dislike the Azzies, I actually doubt they would
have been the
ones to start this conflict; the Texans seem to be really set on
reclaiming
what they believe is theirs.

Ye gods, here we go again. 'Remember the Alamo!'

But seriously, if (by any stroke of luck) somebody manages to hand the
Azzies a major battlefield setback (or even hand them their heads |-}),
I can't see any objections from the Cal-Free side of the border. Who
knows, maybe they'd be willing to commit minor economic and advisory aid
(nothing too major, but an added irritant to the Azzies. A little
diplomatic needling, too: 'Withdraw your troops from San Diego and you
have another division to use in Texas. After all, what can we do?
*smirk*').

And remember, most wars are about (and determined by) economic factors.
Case in point: Pacific Theatre, 1941. Japan needs oil desperately.
America denies it them, effectively strangling their economy and
industry. Japan, about to go into meltdown, is forced to fight a war it
can't win, because its industry (especially its merchant-ship-building)
can't handle the demand. In the CAS/Texas/Ares vs Aztlan/Aztechnology
fight, both sides have a megacorp backing them, but the Confederacy has
more supporters and the Azzies have internal problems to deal with. I
don't know that the Texans would get everything they wanted, but if the
war continued long enough and the firepower kept flowing from Damien
Knight's factories, I could see the Azzies, well, not losing as such,
but certainly forced into some sort of concessions - maybe the creation
of a neutral zone across the disputed territory. (Which could lead to a
great deal of Shadowrun-action fun: remember Star Trek's
Federation-Cardassian war and its consequences? The DMZ, the
incursions, the 'freedom fighter' bands - from both camps - springing up
in the disputed zone, running skirmishes...)

[The possibilities spin Chuck's head so much that he takes off like a
helicopter...]

Danyel Woods

9604801@********.ac.nz
Hi, I'm Chucky.
Wanna play?
Message no. 9
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: corporate wars and desert wars
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:50:41 +0100
I Ryan Bowers said on 12:36/31 Mar 98...

> Does anyone know anymore about desert warsÉ I know it has been
> mentioned in several source books, NAN I and FoF.

Corporate Shadowfiles also talks about DW a little bit. The main thing
that's been mentioned is that it's used to fight out disputes between
corporations. I've been writing a NERPS article about DW, but it's
unfinished (I do way too many things at once...) and a large part
speculation -- though I did try to get all the known facts about DW into
the article, and build on from there.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Circumvent yourself.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 10
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: corporate wars and desert wars
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 02:18:01 +0100
In article <3.0.3.16.19980331105537.08771ccc@****.fbiz.com>, Erik
Jameson <erikj@****.COM> writes
>I know the corporate wars story line that is breaking right now might
>change things, but I really don't see Ares and Aztechnology going head to
>head.
>
>I see this conflict as more like the Spanish War of the 1930's. That was,
>for the most part, a proxy war between the United States and the Soviet
>Union. Neither the US nor the USSR got their hands directly dirty, but
>they did supply weapons and supplies and such.

Perhaps also like Vietnam or Afghanistan. Or World War II pre-Pearl
Harbour. One side (Aztlan) is directly involved. The other (Ares) is
merely (as Erik said) supplying discounted weapons and training,
offering pointers to "mercenary groups" willing to be hired cheaply for
work against Aztlan, and so on... CAS is deeply dependent on Ares, but
they're fighting a war, what are they gonna do?


>You'd also need to factor in the reactions of the NAN, CalFree, and the
>UCAS; nothing happens in a vacuum you know. The UCAS would probably help
>out the CAS in what ways it could, like military advisors, economic
>assistance, whatever. But I don't see direct UCAS troup action unless the
>CAS was getting overrun. Then you could bet your sweet arse they would get
>more directly involved.

Amphibious landing in the Yucatan. Put a couple of brigades of UCAS
Marines ashore to tie up Aztlan forces and foment more open warfare in
that region.

> CalFree would probably just do it's best to make sure the conflict
>didn't spill over into their territory. They're having a hard enough time
>without having to get into a major border war.

Though if CAS falls, they're next, they've already had a war with Aztlan
(that one got the Japanese into CalFree...)

>Tir Tairngire would likely be neutral, with maybe covert economic
>assistance to the CAS. Other nations, like England and Amazonia, would
>probably also supply economic assistance to the CAS. Japan, since it is
>essentially controlled by the "Japanacorps" would probably condemn Aztlans
>actions but that would be about it; that way they appease Ares somewhat and
>don't make too much of an enemy of Aztechnology.

Actually, I could see the I-Marines supported by the IJN forcing south
to reclaim lost territory during such a war. Remember, Japan cared
enough about California to occupy and damn near annex it: they could be
expected to fight to defend it.

"We have no quarrel with the honourable Aztechnology Corporation. We
merely have a long-standing grievance against the despicable Aztlan
nation. Of course, we, like all others, accept that those two entities
are totally seperate."

Remember, that Aztlan and Aztechnology are supposedly seperate beings.
Tenochitilan has to maintain that fiction, Or Else.

>And what about the other megacorps? The "Japanacorps" like I said would
>likely keep their noses mostly clean on this, unless it started to look
>like it would tip the balance of the Big-8 or affect them directly.

I'd actually see them swing more against Aztlan. How much market is
Aztlan, compared to the rest of North America? The profit motive is the
bottom line.

>Now, if you really want a corporate war, that's something else entirely. I
>would wait until reading the novel "Technobabel" and the adventure
"Blood
>in the Boardroom" before launching into a corporate war.

Corporate war would (IMHO) either be fought by proxy (_lots_ of
shadowrun work) or by economic means in the world's stock exchanges.
Open military conflict is not something any corporation does well. They
design and build military hardware to sell, not to stockpile and use.

>Again, cold-drug induced ramblings, so take them with a grain of salt.
>
>Erik J.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 11
From: Stephen Delear <c715591@******.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: corporate wars and desert wars
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 20:51:22 -0600
>
>Oh, by economic assistance I mean things like medical and humanitarian aid
>(not striclty economic, but just work with it for now), loans at a
>favorable rate, some block grants, temporary reduction of some tariffs and
>whatever else that might help keep the CAS economy alive long enough to
>fight off the Azzies. All of which would create economic opportunities for
>these countries/companies in the CAS after the war...

Your forgeting lend/lease arragnements. Sure everyone knows your not
nutral but at least you appear to be on paper.

SteveD
>
>Now, if you really want a corporate war, that's something else entirely. I
>would wait until reading the novel "Technobabel" and the adventure
"Blood
>in the Boardroom" before launching into a corporate war.
>
>Again, cold-drug induced ramblings, so take them with a grain of salt.
>
>Erik J.
>
Stephen Delear
University of Missouri-Columbia
Check out my Photo Message Board at http://www.missouri.edu/~c715591
"Sometimes I do get to places just when God's ready to have somebody click
the shutter" Ansel Adams
Message no. 12
From: Stephen Delear <c715591@******.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: corporate wars and desert wars
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 20:52:24 -0600
At 09:31 PM 98-03-31 +0200, you wrote:
>At 13:53 31/03/1998 -0500, you wrote:
><<KASNIPPETYSNIPPAMEGASNIP!>>
>-uhum-
>After reading the last post by Eric Jameson, I wondered one thing... Isn't
>Aztech in a bad, bad, bad position.. almost all the facts you told were
>against them... I didn't see you saying everybody would be directly
>attacking them, but when it's all summarized, it would make quite a heavy
>blow...
>But, I don't know much about the SR-world, so maybe I'm just plain wrong. I
>do that a lot.. ;)

Grab rigger two. Now look at how much milspec gear aztechnology makes.
Now think how paranoid that makes the Texans feel.


SteveD
>
>Just my observations..
>
>Jod
>chatin@*******.nl
>http://www.euronet.nl/users/chatin/index.htm
>IDM
>Male
>
>Vita Brevis
>
Stephen Delear
University of Missouri-Columbia
Check out my Photo Message Board at http://www.missouri.edu/~c715591
"Sometimes I do get to places just when God's ready to have somebody click
the shutter" Ansel Adams

Further Reading

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