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Message no. 1
From: jjvanp@*****.com (Jan Jaap van Poelgeest)
Subject: Corporations and war in SR
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 02:48:19 -0700 (PDT)
Just to see if this thought goes anywhere:

After the bit about the MBTs, I was musing on what a
6th world war would entail, especially if its a
country/corp doing the warring (Aztechnology).

Would the corporate branch of the nation claim
non-affiliation with the territory? Otherwise any
Aztech facilities inside "enemy territory" would
probably be impounded, or at least taken out of
commission. In short: matters would just get far too
complicated for an open conflict to be practical.

Even if the war is between two nations; let's say
Japan and.... Germany? Would Saeder-Krupp and the
various Japanacorps pick sides? Could they even avoid
doing so? All in all I suspect that economical
interests are generally considered vastly more
important than any notion of national pride or even
perceived justice (wait, this is about a fantasy set
in the year 2065, right?).

Anyway, as it is I can't see how territorial gain, or
political advantages could have sufficient value at a
sufficiently low risk to any megacorp for them to
allow any kind of real warfare to occur between
developed (i.e.: those with significant megacorp
presence) nations. A cold war of the bottom line
ensues, the corporate court ends up being the real
body of power, the Zurich-Orbital the world's throne.

Something tells me SR4 might see the Z-O come crashing
down (or did this already happen? Not too hot on my
recent canon..). Perhaps Lofwyr wings it into space at
great personal risk and eats it *sniggles*.

cheers,

Jan Jaap



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Message no. 2
From: sp@*****.gr (Stefanos Patelis)
Subject: Corporations and war in SR
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:09:10 +0300
Just a quick reply to consider...

Jan Jaap van Poelgeest wrote:

>Just to see if this thought goes anywhere:
>
>[SNIP]
>Would the corporate branch of the nation claim
>non-affiliation with the territory? Otherwise any
>Aztech facilities inside "enemy territory" would
>probably be impounded, or at least taken out of
>commission. In short: matters would just get far too
>complicated for an open conflict to be practical.
>
>Even if the war is between two nations; let's say
>Japan and.... Germany? Would Saeder-Krupp and the
>various Japanacorps pick sides? Could they even avoid
>doing so? All in all I suspect that economical
>interests are generally considered vastly more
>important than any notion of national pride or even
>perceived justice (wait, this is about a fantasy set
>in the year 2065, right?).
>
>
>
My mind is geare towards the fact it will probably happen the other way
round. A war between nations would not involve the corps based within
the countries. I would more expect a war between corps to include the
countries they may occupy/control. If Germany declared war on Japan I
would have my deckers looking out for reasons within Saeder-Krupp for it.

>Anyway, as it is I can't see how territorial gain, or
>political advantages could have sufficient value at a
>sufficiently low risk to any megacorp for them to
>allow any kind of real warfare to occur between
>developed (i.e.: those with significant megacorp
>presence) nations. A cold war of the bottom line
>ensues, the corporate court ends up being the real
>body of power, the Zurich-Orbital the world's throne.
>
>Something tells me SR4 might see the Z-O come crashing
>down (or did this already happen? Not too hot on my
>recent canon..). Perhaps Lofwyr wings it into space at
>great personal risk and eats it *sniggles*.
>
>
>

--
Πατέλης
ΣτέφαΜος

EWORX S.A.
22 Rodou Street - Maroussi 15122 - Greece
tel: +30 210 61 48 380, +30 210 61 48 360
mob: +30 6978853066 - fax +30 210 6148381
mailto:sp@*****.gr -- http://www.eworx.gr
Message no. 3
From: sp@*****.gr (Stefanos Patelis)
Subject: Corporations and war in SR
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:10:36 +0300
Just a quick reply to consider...

Jan Jaap van Poelgeest wrote:

>Just to see if this thought goes anywhere:
>
>[SNIP]
>Would the corporate branch of the nation claim
>non-affiliation with the territory? Otherwise any
>Aztech facilities inside "enemy territory" would
>probably be impounded, or at least taken out of
>commission. In short: matters would just get far too
>complicated for an open conflict to be practical.
>
>Even if the war is between two nations; let's say
>Japan and.... Germany? Would Saeder-Krupp and the
>various Japanacorps pick sides? Could they even avoid
>doing so? All in all I suspect that economical
>interests are generally considered vastly more
>important than any notion of national pride or even
>perceived justice (wait, this is about a fantasy set
>in the year 2065, right?).
>
>
>
My mind is geared towards the fact it will probably happen the other way
round. A war between nations would not involve the corps based within
the countries. I would more expect a war between corps to include the
countries they may occupy/control. If Germany declared war on Japan I
would have my deckers looking out for reasons within Saeder-Krupp for it.

>Anyway, as it is I can't see how territorial gain, or
>political advantages could have sufficient value at a
>sufficiently low risk to any megacorp for them to
>allow any kind of real warfare to occur between
>developed (i.e.: those with significant megacorp
>presence) nations. A cold war of the bottom line
>ensues, the corporate court ends up being the real
>body of power, the Zurich-Orbital the world's throne.
>
>Something tells me SR4 might see the Z-O come crashing
>down (or did this already happen? Not too hot on my
>recent canon..). Perhaps Lofwyr wings it into space at
>great personal risk and eats it *sniggles*.
>
>
>

--
ÐáôÝëçò
ÓôÝöáíïò

EWORX S.A.
22 Rodou Street - Maroussi 15122 - Greece
tel: +30 210 61 48 380, +30 210 61 48 360
mob: +30 6978853066 - fax +30 210 6148381
mailto:sp@*****.gr -- http://www.eworx.gr
Message no. 4
From: arclight@*********.de (Arclight)
Subject: Corporations and war in SR
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 17:40:48 +0200
At 11:48 13.04.2005, Jan Jaap van Poelgeest wrote:

<snip>

>Even if the war is between two nations; let's say
>Japan and.... Germany? Would Saeder-Krupp and the
>various Japanacorps pick sides? Could they even avoid
>doing so? All in all I suspect that economical
>interests are generally considered vastly more
>important than any notion of national pride or even
>perceived justice (wait, this is about a fantasy set
>in the year 2065, right?).

As a war needs a sufficient economy, I guess the only nation starting a war
would be Aztlan. If the big corps within a nation don't support the war's
goals and thus don't support the nation's effort, I see no real way of
supporting an army whithout them.


--
Arclight

Quitters never win, winners never quit,
but those who never quit and never win are idiots
Message no. 5
From: Indianer45@***.net (Andy D Pfister)
Subject: Corporations and war in SR
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 19:53:19 +0200
Arclight wrote:
> At 11:48 13.04.2005, Jan Jaap van Poelgeest wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Even if the war is between two nations; let's say
>> Japan and.... Germany? Would Saeder-Krupp and the
>> various Japanacorps pick sides? Could they even avoid
>> doing so? All in all I suspect that economical
>> interests are generally considered vastly more
>> important than any notion of national pride or even
>> perceived justice (wait, this is about a fantasy set
>> in the year 2065, right?).
>
>
> As a war needs a sufficient economy, I guess the only nation starting a
> war would be Aztlan. If the big corps within a nation don't support the
> war's goals and thus don't support the nation's effort, I see no real
> way of supporting an army whithout them.
>
>

Dunno, look where we've got the most wars today. Afrika doesn't have
lots of an economy, but quite its part in wars. Well, ok, so they
probably don't use many tanks (do they?), but that doesn't keep them
from fighting.

-- Indianer
Message no. 6
From: arclight@*********.de (Arclight)
Subject: Corporations and war in SR
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 20:07:32 +0200
At 19:53 13.04.2005, Andy D Pfister wrote:

>>As a war needs a sufficient economy, I guess the only nation starting a
>>war would be Aztlan. If the big corps within a nation don't support the
>>war's goals and thus don't support the nation's effort, I see no real way
>>of supporting an army whithout them.
>
>Dunno, look where we've got the most wars today. Afrika doesn't have lots
>of an economy, but quite its part in wars. Well, ok, so they probably
>don't use many tanks (do they?), but that doesn't keep them from fighting.

Sure, but the moment "we" would stop selling them arms&ammo, it might stop
after a while ;)


--
Arclight

Quitters never win, winners never quit,
but those who never quit and never win are idiots
Message no. 7
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Corporations and war in SR
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 20:33:28 +0200
According to Andy D Pfister, on 13-04-2005 19:53 the word on the street
was...

> Dunno, look where we've got the most wars today. Afrika doesn't have
> lots of an economy, but quite its part in wars. Well, ok, so they
> probably don't use many tanks (do they?)

If by "Africa" you mean sub-Saharan Africa, then the few tanks they do
use are mostly old Russian ones (T-55s, mainly) that probably get used
more as mobile artillery than as tanks. Countries like Egypt have a lot
more, and much more modern, vehicles, though.

> but that doesn't keep them from fighting.

Very true.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kemen (keemde, h gekeemd): het spelen van computerspelletjes
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Message no. 8
From: jjvanp@*****.com (Jan Jaap van Poelgeest)
Subject: Corporations and war in SR
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 04:02:35 -0700 (PDT)
--- Andy D Pfister <Indianer45@***.net> wrote:
> Arclight wrote:
> > At 11:48 13.04.2005, Jan Jaap van Poelgeest wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
>
> > As a war needs a sufficient economy, I guess the
> only nation starting a
> > war would be Aztlan. If the big corps within a
> nation don't support the
> > war's goals and thus don't support the nation's
> effort, I see no real
> > way of supporting an army whithout them.
> >
> Dunno, look where we've got the most wars today.
> Afrika doesn't have
> lots of an economy, but quite its part in wars.
> Well, ok, so they
> probably don't use many tanks (do they?), but that
> doesn't keep them
> from fighting.

The African continent does not have significant
corporate presence (or at least does not seem to
influence world events from an angle of instigation).
Just look at the contemporary Hutu/Tutsi conflict, or
the stuff happening in Darfur. Gruesome struggles that
(at least superficially) appear to have motivations
that lie in a somewhat different direction from those
in the western world. If you want my opinion, any war
is about the bottom line; it's just that in certain
cases there isn't enough unity amongst the
participants to find a sufficiently abstract excuse
for it (note how I subtly skimped over a few centuries
of political theory there). At the end of the day...
having a bit more farmland (fertilized with your
opponents' plown-in guts) is always a good thing if
you're trying to feed a few more mouths.

My original query concerned the problem of the
interaction between megacorporations and nations.
Megacorporations transcend the territorial nature of
nations, yet have a type of territorial autonomy. All
kinds of interesting issues ensue from this basic
premiss, but I am mainly concerned with how a conflict
between any major developed nations (i.e.: those with
a megacorp HQ) would pan out. Whether such a conflict
is possible, whether it would "necessarily" escalate
into a world-wide war. I can let my imagination loose
on this but I think there are plenty of other creative
individuals on this list who might give me some
refreshing angles on the matter.

So far it seems that the megacorporations are in fact
considered to be superior to a nation in "clout".
Nevertheless, keeping in mind the bottom line, one
might argue that a megacorp would perhaps be happy to
lose all its assets in a particular nation if this
would prevent it from getting involved in a (too)
costly war. In that case the crux of the issue
revolves around the data and the simulation model used
by the corps' analysts i.e.: the decision making
process of a megacorp. So far I have presumed profit
and persistence to be the basic goal of any megacorp,
but perhaps it's the CEO's character that stops the
buck eventually and cals the shots. This is of course
only one way to approach the issue of how the 6th
world would handle conflicts between powerful
organisations and I'm eager to hear other thoughts on
the matter.

cheers,

Jan Jaap



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Message no. 9
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Corporations and war in SR
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 13:20:11 +0200
On Apr 14, 2005, at 13:02, Jan Jaap van Poelgeest wrote:

> My original query concerned the problem of the
> interaction between megacorporations and nations.
> Megacorporations transcend the territorial nature of
> nations, yet have a type of territorial autonomy. All
> kinds of interesting issues ensue from this basic
> premiss, but I am mainly concerned with how a conflict
> between any major developed nations (i.e.: those with
> a megacorp HQ) would pan out. Whether such a conflict
> is possible, whether it would "necessarily" escalate
> into a world-wide war. I can let my imagination loose
> on this but I think there are plenty of other creative
> individuals on this list who might give me some
> refreshing angles on the matter.
>
> So far it seems that the megacorporations are in fact
> considered to be superior to a nation in "clout".
> Nevertheless, keeping in mind the bottom line, one
> might argue that a megacorp would perhaps be happy to
> lose all its assets in a particular nation if this
> would prevent it from getting involved in a (too)
> costly war. In that case the crux of the issue
> revolves around the data and the simulation model used
> by the corps' analysts i.e.: the decision making
> process of a megacorp. So far I have presumed profit
> and persistence to be the basic goal of any megacorp,
> but perhaps it's the CEO's character that stops the
> buck eventually and cals the shots. This is of course
> only one way to approach the issue of how the 6th
> world would handle conflicts between powerful
> organisations and I'm eager to hear other thoughts on
> the matter.

I think the corporate court would get involved at some point.
Megacorps have assets in all nations, and they don't want to lose them.
Something tells me that if a war breaks out, there'd be a corporate
court meeting, at the end of which they would decide what the outcome
of the war will be and enforce it. As in, "Alright guys, stop this
right now or you'll be severely punished".

-- Wild_Cat
"Nice country you've got... It'd be a shame if a few 5-ton tungsten
bars dropped on it from orbit, wouldn't it?"
Message no. 10
From: sp@*****.gr (Stefanos Patelis)
Subject: Corporations and war in SR
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:32:01 +0300
I am thinking along the same line; In most case the corps are the
rulling force behind a country. But waht happens if two or more corps
have conflicting interests too? A war outside of the shadows might then
be quite possible. The corps could try and hide behind it (it aint
Aztechnology doin' the war it's Aztlan vs Germany).

>
> I think the corporate court would get involved at some point.
> Megacorps have assets in all nations, and they don't want to lose
> them. Something tells me that if a war breaks out, there'd be a
> corporate court meeting, at the end of which they would decide what
> the outcome of the war will be and enforce it. As in, "Alright guys,
> stop this right now or you'll be severely punished".
>
> -- Wild_Cat
> "Nice country you've got... It'd be a shame if a few 5-ton tungsten
> bars dropped on it from orbit, wouldn't it?"
>
>
>

--
Πατέλης
ΣτέφαΜος

EWORX S.A.
22 Rodou Street - Maroussi 15122 - Greece
tel: +30 210 61 48 380, +30 210 61 48 360
mob: +30 6978853066 - fax +30 210 6148381
mailto:sp@*****.gr -- http://www.eworx.gr
Message no. 11
From: Indianer45@***.net (Andy D Pfister)
Subject: Corporations and war in SR
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:19:23 +0200
Jan Jaap van Poelgeest wrote:
<snip>
> My original query concerned the problem of the
> interaction between megacorporations and nations.
> Megacorporations transcend the territorial nature of
> nations, yet have a type of territorial autonomy. All
> kinds of interesting issues ensue from this basic
> premiss, but I am mainly concerned with how a conflict
> between any major developed nations (i.e.: those with
> a megacorp HQ) would pan out. Whether such a conflict
> is possible, whether it would "necessarily" escalate
> into a world-wide war. I can let my imagination loose
> on this but I think there are plenty of other creative
> individuals on this list who might give me some
> refreshing angles on the matter.
>
> So far it seems that the megacorporations are in fact
> considered to be superior to a nation in "clout".
> Nevertheless, keeping in mind the bottom line, one
> might argue that a megacorp would perhaps be happy to
> lose all its assets in a particular nation if this
> would prevent it from getting involved in a (too)
> costly war. In that case the crux of the issue
> revolves around the data and the simulation model used
> by the corps' analysts i.e.: the decision making
> process of a megacorp. So far I have presumed profit
> and persistence to be the basic goal of any megacorp,
> but perhaps it's the CEO's character that stops the
> buck eventually and cals the shots. This is of course
> only one way to approach the issue of how the 6th
> world would handle conflicts between powerful
> organisations and I'm eager to hear other thoughts on
> the matter.
>
I imagine that megacorporations hold themselves aloof of the conflict in
other nations as soon as they have extraterritorial facilities there.
Sort of a gentlemans agreement that, for example, Aztech's facility in
Detroit will not be (openly) attacked by Ares, and Aztechnology will not
start any (open) activities against UCAS and Ares from there. And make
sure that UCAS don't do anything of the sort. This, of course, does not
mean that absolutely no action will be taken around there, since that is
what Shadowrunners are made *for*, but the kicking and scratching will
go on at the Corporate Court and in the shadows.

This view may be influenced by the Aes Sedai in Robert Jordan's Wheel of
Time, which I'm just reading. I like the image of the corps thinking
they must not be viewed as a part of the gritty, dirty, bloody world of
nations and national wars, and taking out their 'differences' between
themselves.

However, since corps are still managed by individual people, who feel
for their country, and, maybe more significant, since the image of the
corporation in it's home country is the most important, careful
propaganda on the homefront and maybe some more or less quiet aiding of
the UCAS-units with Intelligence, weapons and some units may come from
Ares. Aztech is something else entirely since they are a country at the
same time, but they will still keep the agreement.

-- Indianer
Message no. 12
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Corporations and war in SR
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:31:01 +0200
On Apr 14, 2005, at 13:32, Stefanos Patelis wrote:

>
> I am thinking along the same line; In most case the corps are the
> rulling force behind a country. But waht happens if two or more corps
> have conflicting interests too? A war outside of the shadows might
> then be quite possible. The corps could try and hide behind it (it
> aint Aztechnology doin' the war it's Aztlan vs Germany).

A few shadowruns later, evidence would show up at the corporate court
(which unlike a government is not bound by bullshit rules like
political correctness). At that point, the two conflicting corps would
have to cease hostilities ASAP, or else (Omega order, anyone?).
An open war between two corporations, especially if it grows to the
scale of a war between two countries, is likely bad for the business of
the 8 others.

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 13
From: alex.case@*******.net (Alexander Case)
Subject: Corporations and war in SR
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 20:28:40 -0700
Max Noel wrote:

>
> On Apr 14, 2005, at 13:32, Stefanos Patelis wrote:
>
>>
>> I am thinking along the same line; In most case the corps are the
>> rulling force behind a country. But waht happens if two or more corps
>> have conflicting interests too? A war outside of the shadows might
>> then be quite possible. The corps could try and hide behind it (it
>> aint Aztechnology doin' the war it's Aztlan vs Germany).
>
>
> A few shadowruns later, evidence would show up at the corporate
> court (which unlike a government is not bound by bullshit rules like
> political correctness). At that point, the two conflicting corps would
> have to cease hostilities ASAP, or else (Omega order, anyone?).
> An open war between two corporations, especially if it grows to
> the scale of a war between two countries, is likely bad for the
> business of the 8 others.

I don't know, at least for the companies in the Arms Business, Wars are
good for business. If they weren't the UCC might be threatening to come
down like the Wrath of God on any of the Belligerants in the Azlan vs
CAS/CFS thing (and perhaps on Gen. Saito).

As it is, in those third world nations which are constantly fighting
each other or in a state of civil war, the Corps might not get involved
at all, but instead simply supply arms... to both sides. And, well, I
can't see resolution in Mog by 2060. Only when one clan remains do I
believe there will be peace in Somalia (especially Mogadishu). And the
rest of Mogidishu will be full of remains of those who, through this
bloody clan feud, either backed the wrong side, were caught in the cross
fire, or denied food because they would not take sides.


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