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Message no. 1
From: jjvanp@*****.com (Jan Jaap van Poelgeest)
Subject: Correcting Shadowrun & metamagic
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 08:45:03 -0700 (PDT)
> I NEVER said is was more powerful than technology.
> It is more socially
> important than technology, but that is a completely
> different
> statement.

But you suggested that mages would colour world events
a lot more than folks with mechanical arms or the
capability to surf the matrix. I would say that, while
there have been unprecedented and fairly unique uses
of magic in the SR world that have altered the course
of world history, the impetus of pre-existing
technology and social structures is causing a very
gradual incorporation of magical aspects into everyday
life. In addition most of the ways in which magic has
changed the world have been very destructive of the
pre-existing state of affairs and therefore magic
might well be viewed with a certain latent distrust.
As an example, consider the relative obscurity of
magically enhanced sports leagues and (AFAIK) the lack
of mages in Urban Brawl and similar events.

I get the feeling that you see magic in SR as being a
relatively neutral force, much like gravity or
magnetism, that some humans can directly manipulate. I
suppose one of the bones of contention I have there
(which I don't think I made entirely clear in the
previous e-mail) is that the manipulation of magic in
fact changes its user as well. The most superficial of
these effects is the bodily drain that ensues after
the casting of a spell, but in addition I imagine that
a mage sacrifices some sense of their humanity as well
in order to focus a causally efficacious force into
the world from what seems to be nothing. While this is
in effect a bit of metamagical theory (which could
change from campaign to campaign), the gist of what
I'm getting at is that even seen from the zeitgeist of
2064 humans still aren't supposed to be doing this
magic shindig. Even to someone born into the awakened
world it should somehow be incredible and, well,
magical to use magic. This aside the fact that one
could argue that human physiology simply isn't all
that well suited to manipulating magical energies (big
teeth and scales are more conducive ;) and that every
act of magic somehow requires someone to sacrifice
something, an "invisible price" one has to pay and
intuitively feels/knows about, but can ignore if
needed (a new "magicla" kind of emotion, if you will).

To return to the shoveling of snow from this
viewpoint: a mage would hold its power too dearly,
considers it too much part of itself to a degree that
any such act would generally be seen as more or less
of a perversion of all things magical by magical
creatures. This is not to say it's impossible for a
mage to shovel some snow, but word might spread and he
might have trouble dealing with any talismongers in
the future (in addition to suffering from lots of
astral peskering).

In essence I'm saying that any act of magic is not a
mere drain resistance and/or some heavy thinking;
doing magic is something that's essentially inhuman
given that the magician becomes a portal for a
non-human force to effectuate itself for a while. It's
the kind of thing one would not do lightly, even if in
game terms the worst that could happen is a light stun
wound.

Another reason for magic's slow permeation could be
that the amount of active mages in the world is far
less than is immediately apparent: many governments
try to control mages by means of requiring permits for
certain spells. It's therefore not inconceivable that
one normally requires a permit to practice magic in
the first place (let's tax it!). Therefore, if someone
is diagnosed as being magically active in the later
stages of their life, they might consider living on as
a mundane given the huge changes in lifestyle that
becoming a magician would require. Hence, though 1% of
all babies since 2012 are capable of becoming a
magician an even smaller fraction of them would
actually go down a life-path that enables them to
become one, this besides the fact that the mainstay of
them would probably be aspected magicians anyway.

>The point of this was not to have magic
> replace technology
> in the game. It was to have magic become the social
> focus of the
> high-level concept of the game. The "problem" was
> that SR was
> considered dated by its cyberpunk thematic elements.
> My suggestion here
> is to replace those thematic elements with realistic
> treatment of magic
> in a future world. I game terms, nothing changes.
> All that changes is
> the image of the game.


I think I understand what you're saying, but I also
believe that such a re-focusing was attempted with the
IE plotlines. If one assumes magic to be capable of
suffusing everyday life (which, as I've now argued is
difficult considering -amongst others- the "invisible
price" one has to pay for its use), then the most
powerful mages (IE's Dragons) would essentially become
the focus of the game; they *would* in fact have their
fingers in absolutely every pie, considering their
huge, huge, HUGE advantage over any other single or
group of magic practitioner(s).

I'm not saying your conception coincides with the
above, though, what you might have in mind is a game
that mentions magic more. I think that this is mainly
a matter of how one presents the game; consider Bug
City, Dunklezahn becoming president, or the changes
that have occurred in YotC. All these are results of
the pervasive nature of magic in the world of SR. If
you consider the "everyday magic" to be missing in the
world, then paying some attention to it might help; a
mage could be getting cranky at having to wait for a
lift and therefore levitate their way up(unless there
are laws against these kinds of things). The magically
active are essentially a happy few that can approach
life from a totally different point of view, this
doesn't mean that everyone will necessarily share this
viewpoint, I in fact imagine that flagrant use of
magic in public could very well incite a certain
amount of hatred/dislike.

Alternatively, you might be saying that all eventually
revolves around magic, given how it can manipulate
without being seen and suchlike. I think the
authorities, who are not necessarily magically active,
are too worried about such things happening and that
they have a number of mages watching out for hints of
such occurrences (of course, the mages might in fact
not be fully co-operating or telling their bosses
everything...). I suppose that what you have in mind
could be accomplished by setting a campaign in Tir
Tairnguire, or a similar location, but I don't recon
that the Awakening has permeated life as much as you
would have it elsewhere.

Where the datedness of cyberpunk is concerned... I
suppose that nanotech still has a ways to go and then
there's bioware and Otaku, not to mention SURGE
mutations and a whole slew of other stuff. It is such
things that (IMHO) distinguish the game from a dated
sense of cyberpunk, or at least bring it in line with
more modern-day conceptions of "grim futurity" hell,
even the cyberware is more-or-less presented as
"interesting toys to stick in your character".

I'd say SR is happily evolving along with modern day
themes while staying sufficiently true to its origins
to not wholly alienate its older players. To be fair,
it could be more "with the times" but then it'd be a
rather different game. Focusing its development on the
magical aspects of such a future could make for some
interesting plot twists, but also risk turning the
world into too much of a paranoiacs paradise, not that
it isn't already.

If it is a closer intertwining of the magical and the
technological that you're looking for, then I suppose
the original conception of the game stands in your
way; I'd say the two forces have always been
juxtaposed in SR canon (though a union of the two is
hinted at by Dunklezahn's interests). Overcoming the
magic-technology barrier would in effect require
something new to come along. Two things I could think
of would be DNA-engineered organic computers that have
telesmatic properties and a new metamagical technique
that lowers object ratings, but I'm sure better ideas
hath been thunketh uppeth.

I get the impression you are returning to Shadowrun
after a hiatus and would like to see the game do some
of the cooler (magical) stuff you've seen other games
do :).

And... yes, I do agree that there will be greedy mages
who'll shovel snow anyway, but I'd like to think they
would be the exception to the rule given the reasons
above. In addition I don't know how game-technically
you can see a bunch of mages shovel lots of snow in a
few hours (which would take a similar kind of timespan
for futuristic machinery anyway).

Cheers & end of rant,

Jan Jaap



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Message no. 2
From: lists@*******.com (Wordman)
Subject: Correcting Shadowrun & metamagic
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 13:48:36 -0400
On Sep 26, 2004, at 11:45 AM, Jan Jaap van Poelgeest wrote:

> I get the feeling that you see magic in SR as being a
> relatively neutral force, much like gravity or
> magnetism, that some humans can directly manipulate. I
> suppose one of the bones of contention I have there
> (which I don't think I made entirely clear in the
> previous e-mail) is that the manipulation of magic in
> fact changes its user as well.

I agree with that, but think that it reinforces my point, not
contradicts it. People so "changed", given their ability to alter
reality, are probably more likely to want to do so.

> To return to the shoveling of snow from this
> viewpoint: a mage would hold its power too dearly,

Some would. Enough wouldn't.

> considers it too much part of itself to a degree that
> any such act would generally be seen as more or less
> of a perversion of all things magical by magical
> creatures.

As opposed to making a mountain explode?

A magical being who would few such an act as a perversion probably
would few the city being cleaned as an even greater perversion.
Compared to the blighting presence of the city itself, some "wasted"
magic to turn some solid water molecules to gaseous ones doesn't seem
like that great a crime to me.

> It's
> the kind of thing one would not do lightly, even if in
> game terms the worst that could happen is a light stun
> wound.

Then you have more faith in the good nature of humanity than I do. IMO,
history shows pretty clearly that power possessed is almost always
used. The only counter-examples I can think of is the H-Bomb; however,
in the h-bomb case, the restraint comes not for fear of the weapon
itself, but for fear of the counterstrike. I don't think such a dynamic
is (yet) at work for magic.

> Another reason for magic's slow permeation could be
> that the amount of active mages in the world is far
> less than is immediately apparent: many governments
> try to control mages by means of requiring permits for
> certain spells. It's therefore not inconceivable that
> one normally requires a permit to practice magic in
> the first place (let's tax it!).

Exactly. That is a perfect example of magic being more prevalent in
society. Non-magicians fearing magicians enough to meet and regulate
them. That is a social effect of magic that has more to do with
mundanes than magicians.

> I think I understand what you're saying, but I also
> believe that such a re-focusing was attempted with the
> IE plotlines.

If that was the point of those plot lines, then they failed miserably.
Don't get me wrong, I'm one of the few who liked those plotlines;
however, they were more about god-like beings effecting humanity, not
how humanity dealt with magic. Totally different idea.

> If one assumes magic to be capable of
> suffusing everyday life (which, as I've now argued is
> difficult considering -amongst others- the "invisible
> price" one has to pay for its use), then the most
> powerful mages (IE's Dragons) would essentially become
> the focus of the game; they *would* in fact have their
> fingers in absolutely every pie, considering their
> huge, huge, HUGE advantage over any other single or
> group of magic practitioner(s).

I'm more interested in a world that answers the question: assuming
these powerful creatures should have a huge advantage, why don't they?
What has humanity done to stop them?

> I in fact imagine that flagrant use of
> magic in public could very well incite a certain
> amount of hatred/dislike.

Again, a perfect example of magic being more prevalent in society.

> Alternatively, you might be saying that all eventually
> revolves around magic, given how it can manipulate
> without being seen and suchlike.

This closer to what I'm saying, yes.

> I think the
> authorities, who are not necessarily magically active,
> are too worried about such things happening and that
> they have a number of mages watching out for hints of
> such occurrences

Yes. Assuming this happens is exactly what I'm talking about. It is yet
another realistic example of social effects of magic.

> (of course, the mages might in fact
> not be fully co-operating or telling their bosses
> everything...).

Another good example.

> I suppose that what you have in mind
> could be accomplished by setting a campaign in Tir
> Tairnguire, or a similar location, but I don't recon
> that the Awakening has permeated life as much as you
> would have it elsewhere.

I get the impression that you are thinking that I'm saying the world
should have big fountains of magic around every corner. That is not
what I'm suggesting. What I am saying is that magic would have a
significant impact on economics and society, even those impacts are
very subtle in their presence and that SR currently does not treat this
realistically. I suggest that it could escape the "cyberpunk" stigma if
it did so.

> I get the impression you are returning to Shadowrun

Not exactly.

> after a hiatus

This is correct.

> and would like to see the game do some
> of the cooler (magical) stuff you've seen other games
> do :).

This is not. I'm not asking for cooler magical stuff. I'm simply asking
that the existing magical stuff be more realistically portrayed as far
as its social and economics effects go. As I mentioned before, what
makes SR unique is that it is the only game I can think of that a)
projects magic into a technological setting AND b) has a general
population acutely aware of this. This makes for interesting stories
and what would make SR worth playing.

Wordman
Message no. 3
From: caseless@*****.com (Stephen Allee)
Subject: Correcting Shadowrun & metamagic
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 06:06:56 -0700
I am probably missing something absolutely obvious, but, wouldn't the
city services contract or employ mages and shamans in their public
works departments anyway?

Of course a Mage or Shaman isn't going to waste their time with
mind-numbing tasks like shoveling snow. That's what they have spirits
and elementals for. My limited world-view would expect that spirits
and elementals would be routinely employed in unskilled menial work
such as clearing snow and ice, handling park maintenance and
collecting litter, cleaning streets and things of that nature. Also,
there may be purification magic at work in the city sewage chain and
water treatment processes. Recycling would certainly be more
cost-effective with the aid of spirits and elementals. Watcher spirits
could be employed to surveil high-crime areas or even to watch for
graffiti. If the magically active members of a society are willing to
work for government wages, there are any number of ways to employ them
in mundane tasks. If nothing else, city jobs would help aspiring mages
pay for their tuition for college.

On a related note, think of what a magically active version of the
Peace Corps could accomplish.

~Caseless
Message no. 4
From: rothgefa@*******.com (Robert Fanning)
Subject: Correcting Shadowrun & metamagic
Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2004 17:54:26 +1000
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