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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Cover modifiers and Spells (all of the above)
Date: Wed Jan 9 09:05:01 2002
I am going to preface this by saying I have never read MItS, and run SR2
myself. I have, however, read all of the SR1 and SR2 books. IMO cover
would only affect the targeting of manipulation spells, as they have to
actually travel to the target physically. If any target is exposed enough
that an assensing mage can see part of their aura, they are vulnerable to
combat spells. I assume that military grade armor, a la FoF, conceals aura
completely. As for the argument that this makes mages too powerful, I say
absolutely not. Mage Pcs need, on average, twice the karma to remain
competitive with other PC archtypes. Rigger, deckers, sammies, etc. all
improve their with time and money. Mages/shamans need karma to gain spells,
bond foci, aquire an ally, initiate, AND raise attributes/skills. Actually,
taking initiation into account, mages need more like three times as much
karma. Enchanting and metamagics add so much more need for karma. I have
never had a problem with game balance. A street sam with a decent
demolitions skill beats a mage any day for lethality. Rememer, any combat
spell that wipes out bad guys in one shot usually wipes the caster out too.
By the time a mage can throw fireballs with impunity, a street sam can throw
Panther assault rounds with equal impunity. Well...in our games anyway.
:)

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Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Marc Renouf)
Subject: Cover modifiers and Spells (all of the above)
Date: Wed Jan 9 12:45:15 2002
On Wed, 9 Jan 2002, Ice Heart wrote:

> I am going to preface this by saying I have never read MItS, and run SR2
> myself. I have, however, read all of the SR1 and SR2 books.

Alas, this is *explicitly* dealt with in SR3 (finally).

> As for the argument that this makes mages too powerful, I say
> absolutely not. Mage Pcs need, on average, twice the karma to remain
> competitive with other PC archtypes.

I tend to disagree. Yes, mages are Karma hogs, but look at what
they get for it. Remember that mages can buy their way to power as well;
obtaining foci of various types can have a multiplicative effect on a
mage's power. Sure, a nifty magical doodad can be destroyed or whatnot,
but so can cyberware, fly weapons, vehicles, decks, programs, or what have
you.
Access to astral space alone put mages head and shoulders above
other classes in a wide variety of circumstances.

> A street sam with a decent demolitions skill beats a mage any day for
> lethality.

Perhaps, but that street sam needs to be able to get to the place
he needs to place the explosives and have some amount of time undisturbed
to set them correctly. What does the mage need? Line of sight and a
complex action.

> Rememer, any combat spell that wipes out bad guys in one shot usually
> wipes the caster out too.

Any mage worth his salt can cast a ruthlessly effective combat
spell and suffer fairly low drain, so long as there's no other mage
present (i.e. so long as he doesn't have to burn Spell Pool dice on spell
defense/shielding).

> By the time a mage can throw fireballs with impunity, a street sam can throw
> Panther assault rounds with equal impunity. Well...in our games anyway.
> :)

The key difference here is that the mage can do it anywhere, any
time, with no warning, and without rousing the suspicion of every observer
in the city before he lets loose. The street sam toting a PAC can't
necessarily say the same thing.

Marc Renouf (ShadowRN GridSec - "Bad Cop" Division)

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Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Cover modifiers and Spells (all of the above)
Date: Thu Jan 10 08:45:00 2002
>Alas, this is *explicitly* dealt with in SR3 (finally).

*sigh* I really am going to have to buy SR3 at last, aren't I? :)

>I tend to disagree. Yes, mages are Karma hogs, but look at what
>they get for it. Remember that mages can buy their way to power as >well;
>obtaining foci of various types can have a multiplicative effect >on a
>mage's power. Sure, a nifty magical doodad can be destroyed or >whatnot,
>but so can cyberware, fly weapons, vehicles, decks, programs, >or what have
>you. Access to astral space alone put mages head and >shoulders above
>other classes in a wide variety of circumstances.

well...I guess. I have never had too many foci in my games. Sec mages
treat foci like a gift from the gods, so my PCs avoid them unless really
needed. Also, a power focus can be sold to keep a team in APDS ammo for
weeks. I don't toss enough money at my PCs for them to casually buy foci.

>Perhaps, but that street sam needs to be able to get to the place
>he needs to place the explosives and have some amount of time >undisturbed
>to set them correctly. What does the mage need? Line of >sight and a
>complex action.

Well...that same sammie with a few weeks of down time can use demolitions
more effectively. Firearms B/R, Demolitions, and some science (notably
chemistry) can be combined to make aerodynamic, air-timed grenades the most
lethal weapon in the game (for its size). Maybe I am just plagued by smart
street sams and not-so-smart mages. Trust me about the grenades though.
:)

>Any mage worth his salt can cast a ruthlessly effective combat
>spell and suffer fairly low drain, so long as there's no other mage
>present (i.e. so long as he doesn't have to burn Spell Pool dice on >spell
>defense/shielding).

My mages are always worrying about wards, watchers, elementals, nature
spirits, paracritters, other spell-slingers, and things they assume I have
thought of that they have not. I guess it comes down to how you limit your
mage PCs. Heap more TN modifiers on them, or heap more targets on them.
That is a matter of taste as a GM, IMO. I personally have enough math to do
resolving firearm combat.

>The key difference here is that the mage can do it anywhere, any
>time, with no warning, and without rousing the suspicion of every >observer
>in the city before he lets loose. The street sam toting a >PAC can't
>necessarily say the same thing.

Touche :)

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Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Benjamin John Hayes)
Subject: Cover modifiers and Spells (all of the above)
Date: Thu Jan 10 17:10:02 2002
> >Alas, this is *explicitly* dealt with in SR3 (finally).
>
> *sigh* I really am going to have to buy SR3 at last, aren't I?
:)
>
> >I tend to disagree. Yes, mages are Karma hogs, but look at what
> >they get for it. Remember that mages can buy their way to power as
>well;
> >obtaining foci of various types can have a multiplicative effect
>on a
> >mage's power. Sure, a nifty magical doodad can be destroyed or
>whatnot,
> >but so can cyberware, fly weapons, vehicles, decks, programs, >or
what have
> >you. Access to astral space alone put mages head and >shoulders
above
> >other classes in a wide variety of circumstances.

In our game, my mage tends to get nailed almost as soon as he goes
into the astral, and projection is a definite bad thing. Much safer to
use Clairvoyance.

> well...I guess. I have never had too many foci in my games. Sec
mages
> treat foci like a gift from the gods, so my PCs avoid them unless
really
> needed. Also, a power focus can be sold to keep a team in APDS ammo
for
> weeks. I don't toss enough money at my PCs for them to casually
buy foci.
>
> >Perhaps, but that street sam needs to be able to get to the place
> >he needs to place the explosives and have some amount of time
>undisturbed
> >to set them correctly. What does the mage need? Line of >sight
and a
> >complex action.

For which he will need a pretty damn powerful Powerball or Ram spell,
the demolitions is muchmore effective and adaptable IMO.

> Well...that same sammie with a few weeks of down time can use
demolitions
> more effectively. Firearms B/R, Demolitions, and some science
(notably
> chemistry) can be combined to make aerodynamic, air-timed grenades
the most
> lethal weapon in the game (for its size). Maybe I am just plagued
by smart
> street sams and not-so-smart mages. Trust me about the grenades
though.
> :)
>
> >Any mage worth his salt can cast a ruthlessly effective combat
> >spell and suffer fairly low drain, so long as there's no other mage
> >present (i.e. so long as he doesn't have to burn Spell Pool dice on
>spell
> >defense/shielding).

I haven't come across the combat spell that's as effective as a
machine gun in the hands of our teams troll goon.

> My mages are always worrying about wards, watchers, elementals,
nature
> spirits, paracritters, other spell-slingers, and things they assume
I have
> thought of that they have not. I guess it comes down to how you
limit your
> mage PCs. Heap more TN modifiers on them, or heap more targets on
them.
> That is a matter of taste as a GM, IMO. I personally have enough
math to do
> resolving firearm combat.

Spirits and astral mages are what tend to get me, that and anything
which closes to close combat.

> >The key difference here is that the mage can do it anywhere, any
> >time, with no warning, and without rousing the suspicion of every
>observer
> >in the city before he lets loose. The street sam toting a >PAC
can't
> >necessarily say the same thing.

Except that I look pretty much like a small eastern dragon all of a
sudden whenever I cast a manabolt.
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Cover modifiers and Spells (all of the above)
Date: Fri Jan 11 09:50:00 2002
All I can say about this mage is he needs to initiate. Shielding quickening,
if heremtic greater elemental if shamanic greater spirits.
>In our game, my mage tends to get nailed almost as soon as he goes
>into the astral, and projection is a definite bad thing. Much safer to
>use Clairvoyance
You need to initiate and get shielding this will protect yuo from spells. I
was not under the impression that there were so many astral spirits around
that as soon as anyone anywhere in the world went astral they got nailed??
>I haven't come across the combat spell that's as effective as a
>machine gun in the hands of our teams troll goon.
Obvisouly you have never encountered a initated, quicken with increase
relexes mage with a willpower of 10 (6 base quickened +4) with a magic
attribute of at least 9 cast an area effect spell. The odds are the mage
will get an action before the troll (max willpower 4). Say good night
gracie.

IMC the PC are 200+ karma. The mundanes dont fight. Why bother. They spend
their karma on non-combat skills because the phys ad and shaman can handle
the combat. Everyone else gathers information, secure prisoners, the
occasional cleanup. Using the rules as written, full mages are the best
combat machines in the game. They move fast, the hit hard, and they can be
subtle. Granted beginning mages may not be quite that versatile, but once
they initate life becomes interesting.


John
Life is to short to drink cheap beer.
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gak The Great)
Subject: Cover modifiers and Spells (all of the above)
Date: Fri Jan 11 11:50:01 2002
Sometime, somwhere down the timeline, John whispered:
<snip>
> >I haven't come across the combat spell that's as effective as a
> >machine gun in the hands of our teams troll goon.
> Obvisouly you have never encountered a initated, quicken with increase
> relexes mage with a willpower of 10 (6 base quickened +4) with a magic
> attribute of at least 9 cast an area effect spell. The odds are the mage
> will get an action before the troll (max willpower 4). Say good night
> gracie.

No, the troll doesn't have a max willpower of 4. It's six. I guess you mean
reaction, where the maximum is 4 (5 Quick + 4 Intel). If he's got a
reflexbooster III (with 200 Karma, he could get it, if you don't keep them
on a pretty short lesh, financially speaking), he's actually got better
chances of going first, because the booster also grants him +6 to
initiative. That's Ini 10 + 4D6 (Troll) vs. Ini 6 + 4D6 (Shaman). Even if he
only has a Booster II, which he at least should be able to afford when your
mage runs around with wi 10 and quickened spells, he has a reasonable chance
to go first.
Add a Smart-II and cybereyes with those zoom things (what're they called?)
and under cicumstances without any extra modifiers, the trolls target# will
be 2 at every distance. An assault rifle with some recoil compensation (only
SR3 stuff) can easily do 17D at 1.3km, + Troll (max begin Strenght 10) = 22D
without any recoil. (Umm, does an AR even fire that much in one complex
action?). For stealthier things, use snipers and heavy pistols. Still not
bad, assuming you have a decent skill in these weapons. I get the feeling
that you give very much karma to the players compared to the little amounts
of money they get.

> IMC the PC are 200+ karma. The mundanes dont fight. Why bother. They
spend
> their karma on non-combat skills because the phys ad and shaman can handle
> the combat. Everyone else gathers information, secure prisoners, the
> occasional cleanup.
If it works for you, it's ok for you :)
> Using the rules as written, full mages are the best
> combat machines in the game. They move fast, the hit hard, and they can
be
> subtle. Granted beginning mages may not be quite that versatile, but once
> they initate life becomes interesting.
I get the impression that you're PC-Awakend are powergamers, from what
you've said. That's not necessarily bad, as long as the others still have
fun. But a serious powergamer could turn a sammie into such a combat
monster, too. With both crad _and_ karma to spend. Also, even initiated
mages aren't immune to losing their quickened spells some way or the other.
(I'm sure this would happen to one of my PCs if they ran along like that all
the time:) But, as always, YMMV.
>
>
> John
> Life is to short to drink cheap beer.

Too true.

-- GAK THE GREAT

"Ein Ring, sie zu knechten, sie alle zu finden,
Ins Dunkel zu treiben und ewig zu binden,
Im Lande Mordor, wo die Schatten drohn."
Sauron aus "Herr der Ringe von J.R.R. Tolkien
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Benjamin John Hayes)
Subject: Cover modifiers and Spells (all of the above)
Date: Sat Jan 12 03:00:01 2002
> All I can say about this mage is he needs to initiate. Shielding
quickening,
> if heremtic greater elemental if shamanic greater spirits.

HE is currently Grade 2 with Masking and Shielding. Invoking is next
on the list, after some more melee combat ability, so he doesn't keep
getting hurt in melee before he can move.

> >In our game, my mage tends to get nailed almost as soon as he goes

> >into the astral, and projection is a definite bad thing. Much safer
to
> >use Clairvoyance


> You need to initiate and get shielding this will protect yuo from
spells. I
> was not under the impression that there were so many astral spirits
around
> that as soon as anyone anywhere in the world went astral they got
nailed??

Well of course, he has only been on a bug run and the metaplanes, so
it's a bit skewed. If I were a GM though, there'd be plenty of reasons
not to use astral space willy nilly.

> >I haven't come across the combat spell that's as effective as a

> >machine gun in the hands of our teams troll goon.


> Obvisouly you have never encountered a initated, quicken with
increase
> relexes mage with a willpower of 10 (6 base quickened +4) with a
magic
> attribute of at least 9 cast an area effect spell. The odds are the
mage
> will get an action before the troll (max willpower 4). Say good
night
> gracie.

The increased reflexes 3 spell will never match wired reflexes,
increased reflexes 3 for a physad, or the synaptic accelerator/
boosted reflexes combo. Fair enough, you can also get and increase
reaction spell, but that's a hell of a lot of karma, particularly if
you want to have it in a sustaining focus. As you've already pointed
out, there are better uses for that karma. I see no need to become
particularly effective in the wiping out large quantities of goons
category when that can already be capably handled by someone else.
Much better to be a support type mage in that situation, with things
like combat sense and enhance aim to boost the already potent troll to
insane levels.

> IMC the PC are 200+ karma. The mundanes dont fight. Why bother.
They spend
> their karma on non-combat skills because the phys ad and shaman can
handle
> the combat. Everyone else gathers information, secure prisoners,
the
> occasional cleanup. Using the rules as written, full mages are the
best
> combat machines in the game. They move fast, the hit hard, and they
can be
> subtle. Granted beginning mages may not be quite that versatile,
but once
> they initate life becomes interesting.

Sounds rather boring IMO. In our group, though the troll excels at it,
everyone has their place in terms of combat, even our decker/rigger
has found he can combat spirits quite effectively, due to a high
willpower, if he can't use his drones for some reason. IMO, if a mage
is going to try and be the groups combat monster, that group is
missing out on so much more.
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Cover modifiers and Spells (all of the above)
Date: Mon Jan 14 03:35:01 2002
Johnflang@***.com writes:

> <Snip stuff about 'super mages'>
>
> Using the rules as written, full mages are the best combat machines in the
> game...

Er, I think that you'll find that this is _in_your_experience_, mate.
Granted, they can become quite serious combat monsters, but so can everyone
else, too. And everyone else can usually become so at a more rapid pace. I'd
be concerned about a magically active opponent, but because he can do stuff
like astrally project and listen in on me and other useful things. Not
because he could out react me and cap off a spell or shoot me. Spells suck
in serious combat (ie versus opponents with good Attributes, or who have
Shielding support), and any wired goon can out react a magically enhanced
person any day if they're munched out right, and they can probably have lower
TNs to blow you away. In _my_experience_ (except 1st Ed with the +8 Reaction
and +4D6 Initiative spell), magicians are useful much more for their
versatility than their raw firepower.

Of course, the munchy types in my games tend to go for bio/cyber freaks with
custom guns. Whereas the munchy types in your game may go for the magically
active characters. Thus, it seems to us that one sort of character is more
powerful in combat, whereas both can probably be just as good if
appropriately munched out ;-).

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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