Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject:	Crash of 2029
Date:	Fri, 22 Aug 1997 09:40:47 +0000

Message no. 1 Hey gang, I need help.

I have a player in my group who is a programmer/systems engineer in
real life, and recently we were discussing the Crash of 2029. This
set him off, and now he has lost faith in the game. (Yea, petty, I
know). He says that something like that would be impossible, because
a virus cannot infect backups. He says all you would have to do is
wipe your storage and memory, and restore from backup. Virus gone.

I do not have my books at work, so I don't know what to say. Seems
his argument is logical. I never thought about that. I just took
the virus at face value.

Any thoughts? Did I miss something in the books? I'm working from
memory here. Any help would be appreciated.

--

===DREKHEAD==================================drekhead@***.net===
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/6990/index.html
================================================================
An error? Impossible! My modem is error correcting.

----------------------------------------------------------------

From:	Court Schuett <schuett@******.IVCC.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Fri, 22 Aug 1997 10:34:00 -0500

Message no. 2 At 09:40 AM 8/22/97 +0000, Drekhead wrote:
>I have a player in my group who is a programmer/systems engineer in
>real life, and recently we were discussing the Crash of 2029. This
>set him off, and now he has lost faith in the game. (Yea, petty, I
>know). He says that something like that would be impossible, because
>a virus cannot infect backups. He says all you would have to do is
>wipe your storage and memory, and restore from backup. Virus gone.
>I do not have my books at work, so I don't know what to say. Seems
>his argument is logical. I never thought about that. I just took
>the virus at face value.

Well, from RL that's not entirely true. There was a virus back a fewq
years, I think a strain of Antrax that was particularly nasty. When you
wiped your drive, it would pop itself into memory, then when the wipe was
done, it would come back onto the disk. The trick was, you had to wipe the
disk, and then before it could drop back down, turn the computer off so it
couldn't get back down. That was back 10 years or so, I can't even imagine
what kind of stuff would be possible 30 years from now. Pretty scary I
imagine.
And besides, whos to say how long the dormancy of this virus is? What if
it sat for a year or more before taing action. That'd just about make sure
it was on all the backups. But how useful would a year old backup be?

Viruses are scary. Remeber RTM? The email worm? That took the net down
for 48 hours. Granted that was back in 86(?). But still. Now imagine a
computer geek loaded down with a +4 Int spell.

-=Court

/* Court Schuett, a totally modern boy.
schuett@*****.ivcc.edu
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hit points come and hit points go, but silver is forever.
-Joel Barlow
*****************************************************************************/

From:	Josh Higham <jhigham@******.STUDENT.CWRU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Fri, 22 Aug 1997 11:50:53 -0400

Message no. 3 On Fri, 22 Aug 1997, Drekhead wrote:

> Hey gang, I need help.
>
> I have a player in my group who is a programmer/systems engineer in
> real life, and recently we were discussing the Crash of 2029. This
> set him off, and now he has lost faith in the game. (Yea, petty, I
> know). He says that something like that would be impossible, because
> a virus cannot infect backups. He says all you would have to do is
> wipe your storage and memory, and restore from backup. Virus gone.
>
> I do not have my books at work, so I don't know what to say. Seems
> his argument is logical. I never thought about that. I just took
> the virus at face value.
>
> Any thoughts? Did I miss something in the books? I'm working from
> memory here. Any help would be appreciated.

Well, I don't know that much about it, but I would think that a crash of
that scale would not be that easy to just backup from. First of all, it
could cause hardware damage, and second, it could hit routers and
switches real hard. In addition, given my experience with users, I don't
know how many would have worthwhile backups.

Anyway, there are a fair number of Matrix things that don't really fit
with what I expect, as a fairly adept computer user, but this is a
fantasy game...suspension of disbelief.

Hope that helps.

*-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-*
Josh Higham jxh25@**.cwru.edu
11904 Carlton Rd. 410A http://129.22.241.146/~jhigham/
Cleveland OH 44106 Anon ftp available at the same site

From:	Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Fri, 22 Aug 1997 11:06:14 -0500

Message no. 4 At 11:50 AM 8/22/97 -0400, Josh Higham wrote:
#On Fri, 22 Aug 1997, Drekhead wrote:
#
#> Hey gang, I need help.
#>
#> I have a player in my group who is a programmer/systems engineer in
#> real life, and recently we were discussing the Crash of 2029. This
#> set him off, and now he has lost faith in the game. (Yea, petty, I
#> know). He says that something like that would be impossible, because
#> a virus cannot infect backups. He says all you would have to do is
#> wipe your storage and memory, and restore from backup. Virus gone.
#>
#> I do not have my books at work, so I don't know what to say. Seems
#> his argument is logical. I never thought about that. I just took
#> the virus at face value.
#>
#> Any thoughts? Did I miss something in the books? I'm working from
#> memory here. Any help would be appreciated.
#
#Well, I don't know that much about it, but I would think that a crash of
#that scale would not be that easy to just backup from. First of all, it
#could cause hardware damage, and second, it could hit routers and
#switches real hard. In addition, given my experience with users, I don't
#know how many would have worthwhile backups.
#
#Anyway, there are a fair number of Matrix things that don't really fit
#with what I expect, as a fairly adept computer user, but this is a
#fantasy game...suspension of disbelief.

Working as a System Administrator, I know for a fact that this kind of
thing cannot happen.

First of all, the virus has to be able to run on the host computer. Java
can, but if it's not initiated by a local user as an application, it can
NOT do ANYTHING to your computer (that' the theory anyways).

Most *secure* systems, FBI, CIA etc. would be as affected as the Lone Star
system, i.e. it wasn't connected to the net, and was barely affected, if at
all.
Secure systems if they HAVE to access the 'net, do so in limited push and
grabs.
And knowing how security minded all the guys I work with are, and many of
the people I have met, I feel pretty sure that if there were a crash, only
mail servers, web servers and ftp servers *might* be affected.

But, who knows what might happen in 30 years

--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/

From:	"Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Fri, 22 Aug 1997 13:18:46 -0400

Message no. 5 Hmmm ... sure you can recover from a virus by just wiping, but unless the
entire Matrix wipes at the same time, the minute you're reconnected, you're
at risk of reinfection.

Also, the Crash virus was a mutated bit of code IIRC and actively sought out
highly sensitive info.
Scientific data, research, etc. Easy enough to beleive that it could also
lurk until backups were made, then nuke the backups, followed by the system.

Personally, I STILL say that Artificer the Horror was part of the Crash
Virus! ;-)
<Or should that be ::::-)]}/\?>

C'mon, he can beleive that we can jack our brains into computers, turn into
Trolls and cast spells, but he's gonna balk at a golbal crash? Hmmm ...
someone's reality is too static IMO. ;-)

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"I'm happier than a carp in a septic tank!"

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Fri, 22 Aug 1997 11:37:37 -0600

Message no. 6 Jaymz wrote:
|
| First of all, the virus has to be able to run on the host computer. Java
| can, but if it's not initiated by a local user as an application, it can
| NOT do ANYTHING to your computer (that' the theory anyways).

What if it's a self initiating virus (semi-intelligent in so far as
programs can be). What if its a program that can move around by itself
(log on to systems, after defeating security, and copy itself), contact
systems remotely, and then issue commands to the system to delete/format
itself?

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."

From:	David West <dwest@*****.NET>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Fri, 22 Aug 1997 15:09:14 -0500

Message no. 7 Jaymz wrote:

> Working as a System Administrator, I know for a fact that this kind of
> thing cannot happen.
>
> First of all, the virus has to be able to run on the host computer. Java
> can, but if it's not initiated by a local user as an application, it can
> NOT do ANYTHING to your computer (that' the theory anyways).
>
> Most *secure* systems, FBI, CIA etc. would be as affected as the Lone Star
> system, i.e. it wasn't connected to the net, and was barely affected, if at
> all.
> Secure systems if they HAVE to access the 'net, do so in limited push and
> grabs.
> And knowing how security minded all the guys I work with are, and many of
> the people I have met, I feel pretty sure that if there were a crash, only
> mail servers, web servers and ftp servers *might* be affected.
>
> But, who knows what might happen in 30 years

I believe this discussion is missing a vital point about the virus, and
eventually its 'cure'. That is the fact that the virus seemed to be
sentient and intelligent. Hackers can break into the most secure
systems, given enough time. If the virus itself can do this, and then
wreak havoc within the system, it would be possible.

What is currently impossible is this level of intelligence within a
computer. In thirty years...who knows?

--Lightfinger

From:	Mike Sapp <cynner29@******.NET>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Fri, 22 Aug 1997 16:09:19 -0400

Message no. 8 At 09:40 AM 8/22/97 +0000, you wrote:
>Hey gang, I need help.
>
>I have a player in my group who is a programmer/systems engineer in
>real life, and recently we were discussing the Crash of 2029. This
>set him off, and now he has lost faith in the game. (Yea, petty, I
>know). He says that something like that would be impossible, because
>a virus cannot infect backups. He says all you would have to do is
>wipe your storage and memory, and restore from backup. Virus gone.
>
>I do not have my books at work, so I don't know what to say. Seems
>his argument is logical. I never thought about that. I just took
>the virus at face value.
>
>Any thoughts? Did I miss something in the books? I'm working from
>memory here. Any help would be appreciated.
>

Ok, there's this evil guy named Bill. Bill wants to rule the world. Bill
writes computer programs...

Of course there's always the option of having the engineer come up with an
explanation. He should know more than enough to come up with something that
is close enough to match up.

From:	"John B. Owen" <StreetSpam@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Fri, 22 Aug 1997 17:40:51 -0400

Message no. 9 On Fri, 22 Aug 1997, Drekhead wrote:

> Hey gang, I need help.
>
> I have a player in my group who is a programmer/systems engineer in
> real life, and recently we were discussing the Crash of 2029. This
> set him off, and now he has lost faith in the game. (Yea, petty, I
> know). He says that something like that would be impossible, because
> a virus cannot infect backups. He says all you would have to do is
> wipe your storage and memory, and restore from backup. Virus gone.
>
> I do not have my books at work, so I don't know what to say. Seems
> his argument is logical. I never thought about that. I just took
> the virus at face value.
>
> Any thoughts? Did I miss something in the books? I'm working from
> memory here. Any help would be appreciated.

There are some viruses that dont just erase your hard drive, but destroy it
(by overheating it or some other way), if this was the case the backup
wouldnt do u much good. it

From:	George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Fri, 22 Aug 1997 19:12:11 -0400

Message no. 10 In a message dated 97-08-22 12:19:20 EDT, you write:

> Well, I don't know that much about it, but I would think that a crash of
> that scale would not be that easy to just backup from. First of all, it
> could cause hardware damage, and second, it could hit routers and
> switches real hard. In addition, given my experience with users, I don't
> know how many would have worthwhile backups.

Perfect example of this. A friend of mine is an assistant manager at a
Brooks Pharmacy. He recently told me that their computer system at the store
crashed. When they went to use the previous day's backup. When that didn't
work, they tried the monthly. In short, they found out that the tape backup
drive was shot, and had been for almost 2 years. A lot of companies are
connected, but maintenance is not necessarily up to snuff. As the 2000 Bug is
now pointing out. Companies KNOW their systems are going to crash at midnight
January 1st, 2000. Most of them, however, aren't responding.

> Anyway, there are a fair number of Matrix things that don't really fit
> with what I expect, as a fairly adept computer user, but this is a
> fantasy game...suspension of disbelief.

Plus, technology has a way of surprising us. The Wright brothers NEVER
envisioned that a direct result of their airplane would be that man would
walk on other worlds - or at least the moon.

Wolfstar

From:	George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Fri, 22 Aug 1997 19:17:08 -0400

Message no. 11 In a message dated 97-08-22 12:20:05 EDT, you write:

> Well, from RL that's not entirely true. There was a virus back a fewq
> years, I think a strain of Antrax that was particularly nasty. When you
> wiped your drive, it would pop itself into memory, then when the wipe was
> done, it would come back onto the disk. The trick was, you had to wipe
the
> disk, and then before it could drop back down, turn the computer off so it
> couldn't get back down.

That's a simple defeat. You keep a read-only master boot disk with a few
utilities like format and the like, or(now) an anti-virus program.

> That was back 10 years or so, I can't even imagine
> what kind of stuff would be possible 30 years from now. Pretty scary I
imagine.
> And besides, whos to say how long the dormancy of this virus is? What if
> it sat for a year or more before taing action. That'd just about make
sure
> it was on all the backups. But how useful would a year old backup be?

This is most likely the actual scenario. Everyone knows about Michaelangelo
Virus, it does the same thing. But if no one knew it was coming, and it was
slipped in to an integral part of an OS or telecommunications software...

Wolfstar

From:	George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Fri, 22 Aug 1997 19:26:04 -0400

Message no. 12 In a message dated 97-08-22 12:40:09 EDT, you write:

> Working as a System Administrator, I know for a fact that this kind of
> thing cannot happen.
>
> First of all, the virus has to be able to run on the host computer. Java
> can, but if it's not initiated by a local user as an application, it can
> NOT do ANYTHING to your computer (that' the theory anyways).

Welcome to the horror that is ActiveX. ActiveX scripts can do all SORTS of
lovely little things. A hacker group out in Germany made a demonstration on
TV of what they could do if you were using ActiveX for the web and Quicken to
keep track of your money. Namely, transfer ALL of your money to a specified
account, without needing your PIN number. I can think of a half a dozen
different variations from that alone that could create at least a minor
crash. add 33 years' worth of computer advances, and you're ready to
rock-n-roll.

> Most *secure* systems, FBI, CIA etc. would be as affected as the Lone Star
> system, i.e. it wasn't connected to the net, and was barely affected, if
at all.
> Secure systems if they HAVE to access the 'net, do so in limited push and
grabs.
> And knowing how security minded all the guys I work with are, and many of
> the people I have met, I feel pretty sure that if there were a crash, only
> mail servers, web servers and ftp servers *might* be affected.

Right, but the trick is, that's on the internet, where tech-heads still play
security guard on systems. I know a few guys who have free internet access
from ISPs because they regularly hack the ISP's systems to find the holes,
and then tell the SysAdmin where the hole is. When the government tore the
Internet down and put the Matrix up, the tech-heads couldn't do that anymore;
everything was too tightly controlled. This in turn leaves the door wide open
for someone to walk through and crash it.

Wolfstar

From:	John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Fri, 22 Aug 1997 22:14:29 EDT

Message no. 13 On Fri, 22 Aug 1997 16:09:19 -0400 Mike Sapp <cynner29@******.NET>
writes:

>
> Ok, there's this evil guy named Bill. Bill wants to rule the
>world. Bill
>writes computer programs...

And his last name is . . . GATES!!!
;)

--
-Canthros (feeling a bit silly:)
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
Warning: Home Page in Transit

From:	John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Fri, 22 Aug 1997 22:14:29 EDT

Message no. 14 On Fri, 22 Aug 1997 17:40:51 -0400 "John B. Owen" <StreetSpam@***.COM>
writes:

>There are some viruses that dont just erase your hard drive, but
>destroy it
>(by overheating it or some other way), if this was the case the backup
>wouldnt do u much good. it
>

Sure it would. You just have to buy a new hard disk first.

--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
Warning: Home Page in Transit

From:	John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Fri, 22 Aug 1997 22:14:28 EDT

Message no. 15 On Fri, 22 Aug 1997 09:40:47 +0000 Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET> writes:
>Hey gang, I need help.
>
>I have a player in my group who is a programmer/systems engineer in
>real life, and recently we were discussing the Crash of 2029. This
>set him off, and now he has lost faith in the game. (Yea, petty, I
>know). He says that something like that would be impossible, because
>a virus cannot infect backups. He says all you would have to do is
>wipe your storage and memory, and restore from backup. Virus gone.
>
>I do not have my books at work, so I don't know what to say. Seems
>his argument is logical. I never thought about that. I just took
>the virus at face value.
>
>Any thoughts? Did I miss something in the books? I'm working from
>memory here. Any help would be appreciated.

Well, a friend of mine got his system infected with a virus called
'Monkey B' recently, it seems that the virus works by infecting the
master boot sequence in the hard disk, not everybody knows how to reset
that sequence (my friend knows, but he had his drive taken to someone
else who fixed it, then told what the appropriate switch/command/whatever
was in case it happened again). In his case, the virus made it impossible
to use the disk without reseting the boot sequence. It could be that the
virus of 2029 works by infecting the boot sequence, but, instead of
corrupting it, the virus stays resident, proliferates, then, after a
certain number of copies of it have been created, or all the disk space
is gone, it shuts down the hard disk. Erase the disk, the virus remains
resident in the master boot sequence and things start all over again.

--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
Warning: Home Page in Transit

From:	Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Fri, 22 Aug 1997 18:28:29 -0600

Message no. 16 At 09:40 8/22/97 +0000, you wrote:
>I have a player in my group who is a programmer/systems engineer in
>real life, and recently we were discussing the Crash of 2029. This
>set him off, and now he has lost faith in the game. (Yea, petty, I
>know). He says that something like that would be impossible, because
>a virus cannot infect backups. He says all you would have to do is
>wipe your storage and memory, and restore from backup. Virus gone.

A slow virus. Released in January, but does not trigger until November. By
that time, even the most lenient people for making back-ups will have
backed up their computer..including the virus. Whoops :)

-Adam

-
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
From The Jury's Bench: http://www.interware.it/shadowrun/channel

From:	Michael Paff <mikepaff@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Fri, 22 Aug 1997 22:20:18 -0400

Message no. 17 At 05:40 PM 8/22/97 -0400, you wrote:
>There are some viruses that dont just erase your hard drive, but destroy it
>(by overheating it or some other way), if this was the case the backup
>wouldnt do u much good. it
>
I seriously doubt the ability of a virus to damage hardware.

Even if it could, most companies have recovery plans which include
recovering from anything up to (and including) destruction of the
computer. Of course, if most of the computers on the planet have
been damaged, then it would be difficult to recover, but, given time
new computers could be built and the backups restored onto those
computers.

Mike

From:	"Steven A. Collins" <scollins@**.UML.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Sat, 23 Aug 1997 01:34:42 -0400

Message no. 18 On Fri, 22 Aug 1997, Drekhead wrote:

->Hey gang, I need help.
->
->I have a player in my group who is a programmer/systems engineer in
->real life, and recently we were discussing the Crash of 2029. This
->set him off, and now he has lost faith in the game. (Yea, petty, I
->know). He says that something like that would be impossible, because
->a virus cannot infect backups. He says all you would have to do is
->wipe your storage and memory, and restore from backup. Virus gone.
->
->I do not have my books at work, so I don't know what to say. Seems
->his argument is logical. I never thought about that. I just took
->the virus at face value.
->
->Any thoughts? Did I miss something in the books? I'm working from
->memory here. Any help would be appreciated.

He's both right and wrong. No the Crash of 2029 is not possable but,
not for the reason he states. The virus could have been dormant for
months making the backups useless as well. The Scenario would go like
this.
12:01 am: computer crashes reason unknown
12:15 am: system restored by Operators
12:16 am: system crashes immediately after boot up
05:30 am: after checking the hardware a virus is first suspected all
memory erased
06:30 am: system rebuilt and memory restored using backup
06:45 am: system crashes immediately after boot up
02:30 pm: usable backup finally found (8 months old) and system
restored to operation
02:45 pm: system opened to internet
02:46 pm: system crashes as virus reinfects system on first
communication with active server

There are a few holes with this process but it is fairly accurate.
after the operators figured out that just about every system out there
was infected this way they would have two choices. Close off the
system to things outside their LAN, or constantly get reinfected. If
you are a bank or similar institution closing your system off to
networks outside your own then you are out of business. The thing is,
it wouldn't take a year to wipe the virus out just a week or two. The
Government makes sure that everybody completely wipes their systems
with the internet shut down for a week. What would take a year is
recovering all the data from the prior 8 or so months and re-entering
it into the system. Where it is not possable is in the OS level. a
virus that would run on a Win NT server ain't gonna do a damn thing on
a Mac, Unix, or Vax server.

Your friend needs to lighten up as well and remember that Shadowrun
was written in about 1985. Alot of things that looked possable then
have turned out to be wrong, and many things that have happened since
no one had thought of back then. The Crash of 2029 is way to major an
event in the Sr world to say oh we're sorry but that didn't really
happen. That's the problem with basing a game at a point in time that
it is likely for at least some of the players to live and see (I'll
only be 81 in 2050) events that are major in our lives need to have
been written into the history. Whereas had they said Sr starts in 2150
then, heck that little incident in the persian gulf at the start of
the 1990's wasn't of enough historic importance to make more than a
side note in military history texts. I mean does he believe that in 18
months there could be a 3 month truckers strike that stops the flow of
food into New York City? Look at the way the government reacted to the
UPS strike and that only involved packages and 1 transport company. Or
that in 8 years a large earthquake will destroy Manhattan killing
200,000 people? Obviously not so tell him to chill and take when the
game history was written into account. back then 2029 was almost 50
years away and almost anything looked possable. Now that it's only 30
years away we can see that year a little clearer.

From:	George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Sat, 23 Aug 1997 04:30:18 -0400

Message no. 19 In a message dated 97-08-23 01:35:55 EDT, you write:

> There are a few holes with this process but it is fairly accurate.
> after the operators figured out that just about every system out there
> was infected this way they would have two choices. Close off the
> system to things outside their LAN, or constantly get reinfected. If

That, of course, assumes that the Matrix works anything like the Internet,
which it very well may not. It's possible that sudden withdrawal of a system
from an LTG could cause a destabilisation of that LTG, or some such other
funky method. Remember, the Matrix didn't have people like the old MIT AI Lab
hackers around at it's birth to play with the systems and plug all the holes
that could be found.

> you are a bank or similar institution closing your system off to
> networks outside your own then you are out of business. The thing is,
> it wouldn't take a year to wipe the virus out just a week or two. The
> Government makes sure that everybody completely wipes their systems
> with the internet shut down for a week. What would take a year is
> recovering all the data from the prior 8 or so months and re-entering
> it into the system.

Taking your system offline was a particularly bad idea from a business point
of view, because by that time, all the businesses were using the matrix to
connect different branch offices and the like. Private corporate LTGs didn't
come into existence until after that when they realized how vulnerable they
were relying entirely on the public matrix and LTGs for communications. If
the matrix destabilized, even if you took your system offline immediately,
you no longer have information sharing between offices on one side of town
and the other, something that the business community had come to rely upon.
Something else they came to rely upon: computers in general. In the past 12
years, we've all seen the increase in the number of PCs in the home and
businesses. Give them 30 more years of this digital incorporation, and then
tell them to keep records for two weeks with a pencil and a piece of paper.
Betcha they couldn't do it.

> Where it is not possable is in the OS level. a
> virus that would run on a Win NT server ain't gonna do a damn thing on
> a Mac, Unix, or Vax server.

Two words: Java & ActiveX. In 30 years, there'll almost have to be a
standard OS just for matrix connectivity.

<snip>

> I mean does he believe that in 18
> months there could be a 3 month truckers strike that stops the flow of
> food into New York City? Look at the way the government reacted to the
> UPS strike and that only involved packages and 1 transport company.

That might actually provide an incentive for the truckers to strike,
considering that the UPS is being considered a resounding victory for the
Teamsters. It depends on how well the trucking contracts are currently set up
and being handled.

> Or that in 8 years a large earthquake will destroy Manhattan killing
> 200,000 people?

Well, it IS close to the fault line that runs through New England, and that
one hasn't gone off since the mid to late 1700's. It's a possibility. Not a
huge one, but more likely than you might think.

> Obviously not so tell him to chill and take when the
> game history was written into account. back then 2029 was almost 50
> years away and almost anything looked possable. Now that it's only 30
> years away we can see that year a little clearer.

True. Of course, in another 10 years we'll look at these statements and say
the exact same things about them, but.... =)

Wolfstar

From:	George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Sat, 23 Aug 1997 04:40:12 -0400

Message no. 20 In a message dated 97-08-23 01:47:16 EDT, you write:

> A slow virus. Released in January, but does not trigger until November. By
> that time, even the most lenient people for making back-ups will have
> backed up their computer..including the virus. Whoops :)

You know, I just realized a flaw with that. If anyone's got a Packard Bell,
remember the Master CD it came with, that includes every program your PC came
out of the box with? Can't infect a CD.....

Wolfstar

From:	George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Sat, 23 Aug 1997 04:44:17 -0400

Message no. 21 In a message dated 97-08-23 02:38:33 EDT, you write:

> I seriously doubt the ability of a virus to damage hardware.

It's possible, just not very probable. I know someone who crashed his
computer after installing OS/2. The drive needle crashed into the hard drive
so badly that it carved a gouge in the disk. Norton couldn't recover the
gouged sectors, and upon reconstruction of the HD, a virus was found(not from
OS/2 - it was a leftover from before he installed it, but it was OS/2
specific somehow.)

Wolfstar

From:	Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Sat, 23 Aug 1997 04:45:51 -0400

Message no. 22 At 04:40 AM 8/23/97 -0400, George Metz wrote these timeless words:
>In a message dated 97-08-23 01:47:16 EDT, you write:
>
>> A slow virus. Released in January, but does not trigger until November. By
>> that time, even the most lenient people for making back-ups will have
>> backed up their computer..including the virus. Whoops :)
>
> You know, I just realized a flaw with that. If anyone's got a Packard Bell,
>remember the Master CD it came with, that includes every program your PC came
>out of the box with? Can't infect a CD.....
>
Yeah, but corrupt the memory systems and those fuckers are a bitch to
fix... Most PackBells have a wonderful integrated system so that you have
to get Pack Bell parts to fix them...

I HATED Selling the buggers for a year at Sears... they were the biggest
pains... Other than the Macs...:]

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"CrapGame, you bitch!"
-- R.C. during the Drive in the Country tournament

From:	George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Sat, 23 Aug 1997 05:09:42 -0400

Message no. 23 In a message dated 97-08-23 04:51:48 EDT, you write:

> Yeah, but corrupt the memory systems and those fuckers are a bitch to
> fix... Most PackBells have a wonderful integrated system so that you have
> to get Pack Bell parts to fix them...
>
> I HATED Selling the buggers for a year at Sears... they were the biggest
> pains... Other than the Macs...:]

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!! I know EXACTLY what you mean, Bull. Worked there for 9
months myself before my car crapped out and I had to quit. Sad thing is,
their older computers are infinitely better. I've still got a Packard Smell
386sx in perfect working order.
Macs ain't that bad. All you have to do as a selling point is remember that
a 100MHz Mac is the speed equivalent of a 133MHz Pentium. And, at least Mac's
coming out with a unix OS variant.... (WOOHOO!!!) =)

Wolfstar

From:	Gabriel <bginc@***.ZEELANDNET.NL>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Sat, 23 Aug 1997 11:41:08 +0100

Message no. 24 On 22 Aug 97 at 13:18, Steven A. Tinner wrote:

> someone's reality is too static IMO. ;-)

He should play Mage :)

Gabriel "Lance Cooney" Knight

"When you gotta go, you gotta go."

bginc@**********.nl

http://people.zeelandnet.nl/bginc
http://www.dahx.demon.nl
http://www.dra.nl/~mom
http://www.geocities.com/Timessquare/Alley/5147

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From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Sat, 23 Aug 1997 11:40:59 +0100

Message no. 25 Steven A. Collins said on 1:34/23 Aug 97...

> Where it is not possable is in the OS level. a virus that would run on a
> Win NT server ain't gonna do a damn thing on a Mac, Unix, or Vax server.

What if it issues commands to the hardware directly without bothering to
go through the OS? Or what if the virus is actually a number of different
programs distributed together, each trying to execute itself on an
infected system simultaneously, and each having the same effect once it
does its thing? It'd be a much bigger file than a normal virus, but it
could infect all common OS's that way.

Or perhaps by the late 2020s we're all using the same OS.

> Your friend needs to lighten up as well and remember that Shadowrun
> was written in about 1985.

It came out in 1989, so 1985 sounds a bit early to me.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Looking over the edge...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Sat, 23 Aug 1997 11:40:58 +0100

Message no. 26 David West said on 15:09/22 Aug 97...

> What is currently impossible is this level of intelligence within a
> computer. In thirty years...who knows?

However, that still doesn't explain how the virus managed to erase data
of which a back-up was kept off-line (if the companies/institutes/
governments were smart).

One way I can think of is if the virus had a rather long incubation time.
The Crash of '29 started happening on 8 February, but who says the virus
hadn't been around for several years already? That way it would have had
the time to infect back-ups as well, simply because you can't go around
researching stuff for yours without making a backup of your data (and if
you do, then whatever happened when you do lose data is partly your own
fault). That way the only data that could be safely retrieved once the
virus had been exterminated was data that was backed up years before the
virus came into existence. Which in turn would explain (sort of) the
slower rate of progress afterward.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Looking over the edge...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Sat, 23 Aug 1997 03:47:51 -0600

Message no. 27 At 04:40 8/23/97 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 97-08-23 01:47:16 EDT, you write:
>
>> A slow virus. Released in January, but does not trigger until November. By
>> that time, even the most lenient people for making back-ups will have
>> backed up their computer..including the virus. Whoops :)
>
> You know, I just realized a flaw with that. If anyone's got a Packard Bell,
>remember the Master CD it came with, that includes every program your PC came
>out of the box with? Can't infect a CD.....

Same with Compaqs.. I had the pleasure of installing the entire schools
software suite on 32 compaqs just before the year ended. Antivirus, typing
tutor programs, MS works, and Wordperfect. Then fixing up the little start
menu so the moron students can use it. Could do 3 computers at a time,
swapping CD's and rolling my chair around, and it took about an hour to do
those 3. Total, about 8 school days, computer class and some of my spares.
fun fun. Where was I? Oh yeah..

FASA never really said where technology was before the great crash, whether
we used computers similar to the ones we do today, or whether new
technology had taken over. Either way, the valuable thing lost is the
Data, not the OS and software.

There's a small computer store in town, and I occasionally spend the
afternoon with the owner, BS'ing and helping out. (Exciting life I lead!)
One of the kids in the other computer store he runs was trying to format an
old hard drive to sell to someone, and accidently wiped out the owners 2
gig hard drive, containing all his payroll stuff, accounts, Everything. No
back up, either. It won't take him more than a couple hours to restore all
the software, but he can never replace alot of the data he lost, and that
was the real problem in the crash of '29, IIRC, losing all the data.

And from another thread: Yes, viruses can do hardware damage. Basically,
set the hard drive to spin really fast, and try to read data from it. The
faster, the better <g>
I assume you could probably also use virus's to cause hardware and voltage
'spikes'. Especially in the SR game universe.. anything is possible :)

And now, the dumbest self inflicted computer problem I've ever seen: One
of my friends got a new computer last year, and thought it would be funny
if he took a floppy disk apart, and replaced the disk part with sandpaper,
then glue it back together.
It was funny until one of his friends was alone at the computer, put the
disk in, and let it spin..

Well, this is drifting OT... :)

-Adam
-
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
From The Jury's Bench: http://www.interware.it/shadowrun/channel

From:	Craig J Wilhelm Jr <craigjwjr@*********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Sat, 23 Aug 1997 06:14:12 -0400

Message no. 28 George Metz wrote:
> > Or that in 8 years a large earthquake will destroy Manhattan killing
> > 200,000 people?
>
> Well, it IS close to the fault line that runs through New England, and that
> one hasn't gone off since the mid to late 1700's.

NYC isn't only close to the faults, the whole city is shot through with
them. Two run right down the East river and the Hudson. One I know of
runs down Canal Street in SoHo. Most people don't realise that the big
buildings in Up-town and Down-town Manhattan are sitting on top of two
mountains...

> It's a possibility. Not a
> huge one, but more likely than you might think.

Yeah, I know. I just hope it's not a big one, like magnitude 6+.
Anything bigger than that will knock buildings down as far south as
Virginia, since most of the Eastern seaboard is just one big dome of
granite.
Magnitude 5-6 quakes will kill alot more than 200,000 people. 2/3rds of
Manhattan, and a big chunck of Brooklyn are built on dirt and rubble
created when our city planners, in thier infinite wisdom, decided to
level out the city to make it nice and flat to build upon. All that junk
will liquify and 2,000,000 people and thousands of buildings will slide
into the rivers and wash out into the Atlantic.

Oh dear, I do believe I've depressed myself...

Peace unto all!
--
Craig J Wilhelm Jr-who-loves-NY-but-loves-to-ramble-even-more!

Reality is nothing but a refuge for those who can't handle role-playing.

http://home.earthlink.net/~craigjwjr/

ICQ UIN: 1864690

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From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Sat, 23 Aug 1997 11:22:11 -0600

Message no. 29 Gurth wrote:
|
| David West said on 15:09/22 Aug 97...
|
| > What is currently impossible is this level of intelligence within a
| > computer. In thirty years...who knows?
|
| However, that still doesn't explain how the virus managed to erase data
| of which a back-up was kept off-line (if the companies/institutes/
| governments were smart).
|
| One way I can think of is if the virus had a rather long incubation time.
| The Crash of '29 started happening on 8 February, but who says the virus
| hadn't been around for several years already? That way it would have had

Or, how about if the virus was preventing backups from happening, but
creating the illusions that backups were happening. And if it was
net wide and set to go active when either A)it had infiltrated a
percentage of systems or B)it was discovered. Imagine how badly it
would screw things up if backups haven't been happening for the last
year, and suddenly something starts erasing hard drives.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Sat, 23 Aug 1997 19:21:50 +0100

Message no. 30 |But, who knows what might happen in 30 years

Well in the Shadowrun timeline, it's obvious, isn't it?
All the computers on the internet were running Windoze 2010 and MS visual
Java ++...

:)

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Sun, 24 Aug 1997 04:31:39 +1000

Message no. 31 Following the recent discussions on the feasibility of the crash, my
boyfriend's written up a description of why he thinks the crash is
possible. I can't be bothered to rewrite it here, nor am I going to
post it as an attachment (i'm proud of my status as a listmember who's
never been thwapped), but it should go up on my web page tomorrow if
anyone wants to take a look.

Lady Jestyr

-------------------------------------------------------------
Who says I'm crazy? I prefer the term 'sensibility deficient'
- Tamino
-------------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-------------------------------------------------------------

From:	Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Sat, 23 Aug 1997 17:54:10 -0600

Message no. 32 At 04:31 8/24/97 +1000, you wrote:
>post it as an attachment (i'm proud of my status as a listmember who's
>never been thwapped), but it should go up on my web page tomorrow if
>anyone wants to take a look.

*Thwap*!
Gotcha Elle :)

-Adam
-
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
From The Jury's Bench: http://www.interware.it/shadowrun/channel

From:	Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Sat, 23 Aug 1997 21:16:08 -0500

Message no. 33 At 11:40 AM 8/23/97 +0100, Gurth wrote:
#David West said on 15:09/22 Aug 97...
#
#> What is currently impossible is this level of intelligence within a
#> computer. In thirty years...who knows?
#
#However, that still doesn't explain how the virus managed to erase data
#of which a back-up was kept off-line (if the companies/institutes/
#governments were smart).
#
#One way I can think of is if the virus had a rather long incubation time.
#The Crash of '29 started happening on 8 February, but who says the virus
#hadn't been around for several years already? That way it would have had
#the time to infect back-ups as well, simply because you can't go around
#researching stuff for yours without making a backup of your data (and if
#you do, then whatever happened when you do lose data is partly your own
#fault). That way the only data that could be safely retrieved once the
#virus had been exterminated was data that was backed up years before the
#virus came into existence. Which in turn would explain (sort of) the
#slower rate of progress afterward.

OK, my 2 cents again.

It is impossible to make bakup recovery impossible.

Even if a backup is infected, all you need to do is rebuild a machine,
software wise, wipe the storage, disconnect from net for a while.

Your OS disks will probably be CDs, which can NOT be infected.
Restore your DATA files, after scanning for the virus in them.

But, that's still using current tech.

--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/

From:	Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Sun, 24 Aug 1997 02:07:50 -0400

Message no. 34 > However, that still doesn't explain how the virus managed to erase data
> of which a back-up was kept off-line (if the companies/institutes/
> governments were smart).
>
> One way I can think of is if the virus had a rather long incubation time.
> The Crash of '29 started happening on 8 February, but who says the virus
> hadn't been around for several years already? That way it would have had
> the time to infect back-ups as well, simply because you can't go around
> researching stuff for yours without making a backup of your data (and if
> you do, then whatever happened when you do lose data is partly your own
> fault). That way the only data that could be safely retrieved once the
> virus had been exterminated was data that was backed up years before the
> virus came into existence. Which in turn would explain (sort of) the
> slower rate of progress afterward.

Something else too, I seem to remember somewhere mentionings that the virus
was still in isolated systems that were not connected to the nets or are in
really old systems. The one thing I do remember about it was that it was
extremely adaptive, which means that it had evolutionary coding. There is
another thing also. If anyone remembers the book "Lucifers Deck", what if
something got inside the nets and wanted out but was not able to for some
weird reason or another. IMHO, I think the virus was self-aware and felt
threatened, and hence the reason it caused the crash of '29.

AirWisp

From:	"J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Sun, 24 Aug 1997 03:00:07 -0400

Message no. 35 In a message dated 97-08-23 05:08:08 EDT, W0lfstar@***.COM (George Metz)
writes:

>
> You know, I just realized a flaw with that. If anyone's got a Packard
Bell,
> remember the Master CD it came with, that includes every program your PC
> came
> out of the box with? Can't infect a CD.....
>
> Wolfstar
>
Actually, there are two other variations on that theme...one of them had to
do with a Video Game not all that long ago. Seems someone "augmented" the
burn program so that all the game CD's produced were matching that
"augmented" format. Such augmentation allowed for passwords and the like to
be sent to anonymous email addresses, aka relay junctions.

The second one involved another similar circumstance, but it was dubbed as
major shareware products compatible with anything that Windows had to offer.

-K

From:	"MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Sun, 24 Aug 1997 20:02:06 +1000

Message no. 36 > > Your friend needs to lighten up as well and remember that Shadowrun
> > was written in about 1985.
>
> It came out in 1989, so 1985 sounds a bit early to me.
>

Well, 88 actually. DNA/DOA was written to be set in 2049 (2049 -61 = 1988)

I think that's why the 3rd ed. is coming out; It's going to be roughly in
time for the 10th anniversary of the game.

Hell, I just realised that I've been playing Shadowrun for nearly ten
years.

Marty

From:	David Hinkley <dhinkley@***.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Sun, 24 Aug 1997 03:04:14 +0000

Message no. 37 On 23 Aug 97 at 3:47, Adam J wrote:

[SNIP]
> And from another thread: Yes, viruses can do hardware damage.
> Basically, set the hard drive to spin really fast, and try to read
> data from it. The faster, the better <g> I assume you could
> probably also use virus's to cause hardware and voltage 'spikes'.
> Especially in the SR game universe.. anything is possible :)

You don't even have to be that fancy. Several Years ago there was a
virus that affected Apple Laser Printers, it sent the printer two
commands, the first moved the left hand margin to the right of the
right margin and the second changed the password to a random number
it did not record. (the printer had the option of password control to
safeguard printer settings from unathorized tampering).

As to cross OS viruses, there was the MAC virus that only affected
Amigas.......(in MAC emulation mode).

David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org

====================================================
Those who are too intelligent to engage in politics
are punished by being governed by those who are not
--Plato

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Sun, 24 Aug 1997 13:26:44 +0100

Message no. 38 |Something else too, I seem to remember somewhere mentionings that the virus
|was still in isolated systems that were not connected to the nets or are in
|really old systems. The one thing I do remember about it was that it was
|extremely adaptive, which means that it had evolutionary coding. There is
|another thing also. If anyone remembers the book "Lucifers Deck", what if
|something got inside the nets and wanted out but was not able to for some
|weird reason or another. IMHO, I think the virus was self-aware and felt
|threatened, and hence the reason it caused the crash of '29.

Lets also remember that the Virus was very dangerous to deckers.
If the players were to enter one of these old systems, I'd give it a
BLACK IC rating... (But instead of sitting there until someone tries to
penetrate it, it attacks THEM!)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	"Steven A. Collins" <scollins@**.UML.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Sun, 24 Aug 1997 12:18:11 -0400

Message no. 39 On Sat, 23 Aug 1997, George Metz wrote:

->In a message dated 97-08-23 01:47:16 EDT, you write:
->
->> A slow virus. Released in January, but does not trigger until November. By
->> that time, even the most lenient people for making back-ups will have
->> backed up their computer..including the virus. Whoops :)
->
-> You know, I just realized a flaw with that. If anyone's got a Packard Bell,
->remember the Master CD it came with, that includes every program your PC came
->out of the box with? Can't infect a CD.....
->
-> Wolfstar
->
No it can't but it can infect your data files which re-infect your
progs as soon as you re-load them into your system. Also I was more
talking about server systems than desktop systems.

From:	Josh Higham <jhigham@******.STUDENT.CWRU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Sun, 24 Aug 1997 12:34:23 -0400

Message no. 40 On Sat, 23 Aug 1997, Jaymz wrote:

> At 11:40 AM 8/23/97 +0100, Gurth wrote:
>
> OK, my 2 cents again.
>
> It is impossible to make bakup recovery impossible.
>
> Even if a backup is infected, all you need to do is rebuild a machine,
> software wise, wipe the storage, disconnect from net for a while.
>
> Your OS disks will probably be CDs, which can NOT be infected.
> Restore your DATA files, after scanning for the virus in them.

Several people had mentioned this; that CDs can't be infected. While it
is true that they are unalterable, I have heard of two fairly mainstream
CD-ROM releases that had viruses on them; All it takes is a shoddy virus
check, or someone who wants to write a virus and get it distributed
quickly. In fact, this is probably how I'd see it done - infect the CD
writing software first...after awhile you would have to drop like 2 or 3
OS versions just to get a clean system.

Also, having a virus in the backup software would be a likely choice.

Another point is that if a company doesn't have mission critical data, it
probably isn't backed up regularily, or safely (only keeping a couple
months backlog or something). If it is mission critical, it does very
little good to restore from a backup more than, say, a week old. Can you
imagine what people would do if banks tried to say, "Well, we lost data
to the virus, but we had backups. So all of your accounts are at their
<6 month old backup> levels." True, people that keep good records might
be able to prove some deposits, but in general it wouldn't go over too well.

I have to admit I don't really find it believable, but I can see it as
possible, and considering everything else in SR, I'm not too worried. (I
actually don't like the matrix stuff, because it violates a lot of my
belief about how computers/programs work, and more importantly, under
what circumstances I would let a computer directly interface with my
brain). That is another issue altogether.

*-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-*
Josh Higham jxh25@**.cwru.edu
11904 Carlton Rd. 410A http://129.22.241.146/~jhigham/
Cleveland OH 44106 Anon ftp available at the same site

From:	Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Sun, 24 Aug 1997 12:53:43 -0500

Message no. 41 At 12:34 PM 8/24/97 -0400, Josh Higham wrote:
#On Sat, 23 Aug 1997, Jaymz wrote:
#
#> At 11:40 AM 8/23/97 +0100, Gurth wrote:
#>
#> OK, my 2 cents again.
#>
#> It is impossible to make bakup recovery impossible.
#>
#> Even if a backup is infected, all you need to do is rebuild a machine,
#> software wise, wipe the storage, disconnect from net for a while.
#>
#> Your OS disks will probably be CDs, which can NOT be infected.
#> Restore your DATA files, after scanning for the virus in them.
#
#Several people had mentioned this; that CDs can't be infected. While it
#is true that they are unalterable, I have heard of two fairly mainstream
#CD-ROM releases that had viruses on them; All it takes is a shoddy virus
#check, or someone who wants to write a virus and get it distributed
#quickly. In fact, this is probably how I'd see it done - infect the CD
#writing software first...after awhile you would have to drop like 2 or 3
#OS versions just to get a clean system.
most of these viruses in cd writing software have been for games releases.
not one OS that i've heard of.

#Also, having a virus in the backup software would be a likely choice.
Right, that's why you use your own backup software.
and not many versions of tar have been infected by viri.

#Another point is that if a company doesn't have mission critical data, it
#probably isn't backed up regularily, or safely (only keeping a couple
#months backlog or something). If it is mission critical, it does very
#little good to restore from a backup more than, say, a week old. Can you
#imagine what people would do if banks tried to say, "Well, we lost data
#to the virus, but we had backups. So all of your accounts are at their
#<6 month old backup> levels." True, people that keep good records might
#be able to prove some deposits, but in general it wouldn't go over too well.
mission critical data IS backed up at least daily, after being scanned for
viri.

Also, if it' government data, it's kept for 7 years.

But yeah, it is all moot, and I won't worry about it til I see someone
goblinise.

;)
--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/

From:	Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Sun, 24 Aug 1997 22:04:56 -0700

Message no. 42 ---Drekhead wrote:
>
> Hey gang, I need help.
>
> I have a player in my group who is a programmer/systems engineer in
> real life, and recently we were discussing the Crash of 2029. This
> set him off, and now he has lost faith in the game. (Yea, petty, I
> know). He says that something like that would be impossible, because
> a virus cannot infect backups. He says all you would have to do is
> wipe your storage and memory, and restore from backup. Virus gone.

<snip>

> Any thoughts? Did I miss something in the books? I'm working from
> memory here. Any help would be appreciated.

One thought to consider...an awakened world.
Who says the virus/crash was purely a technological phenomena? Don't
forget that magic could have been involved in such a scnerio.

===

@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

"You're calling me Bitch like it's a bad thing."
--> CrapGame during the Drive in the Country tournament.
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com

From:	Michael Vander Donk <mdonk@******.OZ.AU>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Mon, 25 Aug 1997 15:30:15 +1000

Message no. 43 Loki[SMTP:daddyjim@**********.COM] wrote:
> ---Drekhead wrote:
> >
> > Hey gang, I need help.
> >
> > I have a player in my group who is a programmer/systems engineer in
> > real life, and recently we were discussing the Crash of 2029. This
> > set him off, and now he has lost faith in the game. (Yea, petty, I
> > know). He says that something like that would be impossible, because
> > a virus cannot infect backups. He says all you would have to do is
> > wipe your storage and memory, and restore from backup. Virus gone.

> > Any thoughts? Did I miss something in the books? I'm working from
> > memory here. Any help would be appreciated.
>
I missed the inital comment but...

The virus writers would have known this (if it was written... ;-). They
would have made it infect everything, then go off... Notice how the
world went up at once. There was almost no lag between the first and
last case (in my understanding). So all computers had the virus when it
went off, this smells of a time bomb situation. So all backups would
either be infected, or so far out of date to be useless.....
Well ... if i wrote it, that's what I'd do ..... :-)

Michael.

--
What's the difference between a duck? One of it's legs are both the
same.
LSD melts in your mind, not in your hand.

From:	Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Mon, 25 Aug 1997 02:33:10 -0400

Message no. 44 In a message dated 97-08-25 01:44:52 EDT, you write:

> Who says the virus/crash was purely a technological phenomena? Don't
> forget that magic could have been involved in such a scnerio.
>

Or the birth pangs of the Resonance ... what if the virus was trying to make
the net into a UV host, but because of the lag in technology it could not do
it ... hey this is an idea ... what if the virus was the Resonance trying to
force a leap in technology so that the future children of the matrix could
have the matrix that would give them the most freedom and the ability to
truly interact within the nets ...

AirWisp (Mike)

From:	"MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Mon, 25 Aug 1997 18:37:07 +1000

Message no. 45 > |Something else too, I seem to remember somewhere mentionings that the virus
> |was still in isolated systems that were not connected to the nets or are in
> |really old systems. The one thing I do remember about it was that it was
> |extremely adaptive, which means that it had evolutionary coding. There is
> |another thing also. If anyone remembers the book "Lucifers Deck", what if
> |something got inside the nets and wanted out but was not able to for some
> |weird reason or another. IMHO, I think the virus was self-aware and felt
> |threatened, and hence the reason it caused the crash of '29.
>
> Lets also remember that the Virus was very dangerous to deckers.
> If the players were to enter one of these old systems, I'd give it a
> BLACK IC rating... (But instead of sitting there until someone tries to
> penetrate it, it attacks THEM!)

Maybe the entire system network hit a level of complexity that was roughly
comparable to an ecology, and it started to spawn life-forms of its own.

The early self-replicating viruses started as the evolutionary 'seeds',
and the Crash of 2029 was basically the first advanced predator/forager
which 'evolved'.

Makes you wonder what the next highest life-form is going to be like.
Perhaps *thats* the explanation for the AI.

Marty

From:	"MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Mon, 25 Aug 1997 18:38:51 +1000

Message no. 46 > #Several people had mentioned this; that CDs can't be infected. While it
> #is true that they are unalterable, I have heard of two fairly mainstream
> #CD-ROM releases that had viruses on them; All it takes is a shoddy virus
> #check, or someone who wants to write a virus and get it distributed
> #quickly. In fact, this is probably how I'd see it done - infect the CD
> #writing software first...after awhile you would have to drop like 2 or 3
> #OS versions just to get a clean system.
> most of these viruses in cd writing software have been for games releases.
> not one OS that i've heard of.
>

What about the sudden appearance of CD-RW (re-writeables)???

If they prove versatile and cheap enough, then the old CD-R (write once)
may go the way of the dinosaurs.

Marty

From:	David Hinkley <dhinkley@***.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Mon, 25 Aug 1997 02:18:33 +0000

Message no. 47 On 24 Aug 97 at 12:53, Jaymz wrote:

[SNIP]
>
> Also, if it' government data, it's kept for 7 years.
>

That may be true, but remember this is the same government that
archived magnetic tapes but did not retain the tape readers.

David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org

====================================================
Those who are too intelligent to engage in politics
are punished by being governed by those who are not
--Plato

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Mon, 25 Aug 1997 07:13:09 -0600

Message no. 48 I got it figured out. Some guy in the late 20th century, let's call
him Spike ;), hates Microsoft so much that he writes a virus designed
to take out all Microsoft products in 2029 (duplicating the crash of
1929).

Over the years the virus quietly infiltrates just about every
computer system as it's sent, over and over, as part of the Good
Times virus warning.

But, as technology increases something unexpected happens. The virus
mutates. It target on the due date is now every piece of software
and data it can reach. And, it's gotten nasty. While the virus
isn't intelligent by any means, it's incredibly reactive and
adaptive.

So on the due day in 2029 Spike wakes up and turns on the news,
expecting to find Microsoft on its knees, only to find that the
entire computer network is crashing. He logs on to find the ShadowRN
was one of the first victims and no longer exists. In a state of
severe depression he shaves his head and becomes an accountant.

:)

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."

From:	Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Mon, 25 Aug 1997 09:15:04 -0500

Message no. 49 At 03:30 PM 8/25/97 +1000, Michael Vander Donk wrote:
#Loki[SMTP:daddyjim@**********.COM] wrote:
#> ---Drekhead wrote:
#> >
#> > Hey gang, I need help.
#> >
#> > I have a player in my group who is a programmer/systems engineer in
#> > real life, and recently we were discussing the Crash of 2029. This
#> > set him off, and now he has lost faith in the game. (Yea, petty, I
#> > know). He says that something like that would be impossible, because
#> > a virus cannot infect backups. He says all you would have to do is
#> > wipe your storage and memory, and restore from backup. Virus gone.
#
#> > Any thoughts? Did I miss something in the books? I'm working from
#> > memory here. Any help would be appreciated.
#>
#I missed the inital comment but...
#
#The virus writers would have known this (if it was written... ;-). They
#would have made it infect everything, then go off... Notice how the
#world went up at once. There was almost no lag between the first and
#last case (in my understanding). So all computers had the virus when it
#went off, this smells of a time bomb situation. So all backups would
#either be infected, or so far out of date to be useless.....
#Well ... if i wrote it, that's what I'd do ..... :-)

everyone's forgetting something here

what you backup is DATA, and data is very rarely executable.
--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/

From:	Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 2029
Date:	Mon, 25 Aug 1997 09:21:01 -0500

Message no. 50 At 06:38 PM 8/25/97 +1000, MARTIN E. GOTTHARD wrote:
#> #Several people had mentioned this; that CDs can't be infected. While it
#> #is true that they are unalterable, I have heard of two fairly mainstream
#> #CD-ROM releases that had viruses on them; All it takes is a shoddy virus
#> #check, or someone who wants to write a virus and get it distributed
#> #quickly. In fact, this is probably how I'd see it done - infect the CD
#> #writing software first...after awhile you would have to drop like 2 or 3
#> #OS versions just to get a clean system.
#> most of these viruses in cd writing software have been for games releases.
#> not one OS that i've heard of.
#>
#
#What about the sudden appearance of CD-RW (re-writeables)???
#
#If they prove versatile and cheap enough, then the old CD-R (write once)
#may go the way of the dinosaurs.
True,
but CDs as we now know them are MUCH cheaper to produce for software
distribution, DVD will probably be next, and the non-recordable versions
are also cheaper to distribute software on.

--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/

Message no. 51 On 24 Aug 97 at 22:04, Loki wrote:

> > I have a player in my group who is a programmer/systems engineer in
> > real life, and recently we were discussing the Crash of 2029. This
> > set him off, and now he has lost faith in the game. (Yea, petty, I
> > know). He says that something like that would be impossible, because
> > a virus cannot infect backups. He says all you would have to do is
> > wipe your storage and memory, and restore from backup. Virus gone.
>
> One thought to consider...an awakened world.
> Who says the virus/crash was purely a technological phenomena? Don't
> forget that magic could have been involved in such a scnerio.

Thanks, that is the answer I finally went with. He can't argue with
magic. :)

--

===DREKHEAD==================================drekhead@***.net===
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/6990/index.html
================================================================
What has four legs and an arm? A happy pit bull.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 52 |I got it figured out. Some guy in the late 20th century, let's call
|him Spike ;), hates Microsoft so much that he writes a virus designed
|to take out all Microsoft products in 2029 (duplicating the crash of
|1929).

Hmmmm....
This shows some possibilities...
I'll start work on it right away....

:)

One problem with this though....
In order to write a virus that complex, you have to live, eat, sleep and....
never mind....
You have to be intimately familiar with all the systems you want to
infect....

|Over the years the virus quietly infiltrates just about every
|computer system as it's sent, over and over, as part of the Good
|Times virus warning.

Nahhh. Everyone knows that Good Times is a hoax. (And a pitifull one at that)
Text files can not contain executable code
.
|But, as technology increases something unexpected happens. The virus
|mutates. It target on the due date is now every piece of software
|and data it can reach. And, it's gotten nasty. While the virus
|isn't intelligent by any means, it's incredibly reactive and
|adaptive.
|
|So on the due day in 2029 Spike wakes up and turns on the news,
|expecting to find Microsoft on its knees, only to find that the
|entire computer network is crashing. He logs on to find the ShadowRN
|was one of the first victims and no longer exists. In a state of
|severe depression he shaves his head and becomes an accountant.

You've not been paying attention, have you?
I shaved my mohawk off 2 weeks ago in order to get into the TA...

|:)

::B)}]
(Horror with one bad pair of eyes?)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 53 Spike wrote:
|
| One problem with this though....
| In order to write a virus that complex, you have to live, eat, sleep and....
| never mind....
| You have to be intimately familiar with all the systems you want to
| infect....

Unless.. Spike is an absolute fraggin genius. You know, one of those
"once in a century" type geniuses.

I originally wrote that as humor. But the more I think about it...
At some point in the 1990s (or early 2000s) someone writes a virus.
Maybe they have a long term goal, maybe they're not very good.
Anyway, the virus stays in the system and multiplies, but doesn't do
it's job. As technology shifts a coincidence occurs and the virus
mutates. Now it's an active virus that can get into any system.
But, it still doesn't do anything. So the virus has been in the
system for about 30 years when it suddenly starts attacking. It
*knows* the system, every program, every database. It's everywhere,
in every backup. And it's not one of those passive viruses. It's a
self executing virus, a lethel program that systematically destroys
other programs and databases, and it lives in the net.

| You've not been paying attention, have you? | I shaved my mohawk
off 2 weeks ago in order to get into the TA...

And? Are you in?

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."

Message no. 54 Spike said on 15:22/25 Aug 97...

> Nahhh. Everyone knows that Good Times is a hoax. (And a pitifull one at that)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Tell that to the people who feel they need to warn me about stuff like
that... Luckily it's been quiet of late.

> You've not been paying attention, have you?
> I shaved my mohawk off 2 weeks ago in order to get into the TA...
>
> |:)

So you've gone through with that plan after all?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If words were wisdom I'd be talking even more.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Message no. 55 At 10:25 PM 8/25/97 +0100, Gurth wrote:
#Spike said on 15:22/25 Aug 97...
#
#> Nahhh. Everyone knows that Good Times is a hoax. (And a pitifull one at
that)
# ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
#Tell that to the people who feel they need to warn me about stuff like
#that... Luckily it's been quiet of late.

Remember last year when there was the "Internet Cleaning" period, and all
computers on the net were supposed to be turned off at midnight, while 4
giant robots cleaned the wires, for two whole days.

We had fellow "smart" people ask us if that was true.

--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/

Message no. 56 In a message dated 97-08-25 10:39:57 EDT, you write:

> Nahhh. Everyone knows that Good Times is a hoax. (And a pitifull one at
that)
> Text files can not contain executable code

Yupyup. No executable code. Which is why I got really confused when I went
to download a small attachment that came over the list(again) that was
described as a "multi-part MIME format", yet had a .mim extension instead of
the .mme that I usually get, and it supposedly had executable code in it.

Wolfstar

Message no. 57 >
> everyone's forgetting something here
>
> what you backup is DATA, and data is very rarely executable.

Well true but not true... The important stuff is the data. But you need
the programs, libraries and everything else to get a complete set.
What happens when your hard drike dies and you only backup your data.
You have to reload every program again. (and depending on the OS a
nightmare).
With a full backup (data and programs) you can just straight copy....

But even outside this. The data that will be used in the future (IMO)
will have it's own triggers / code within the data (4gl, object
orientated...). At the very least there will be the data 'business
rules' which controls how the data is manipulated...

Naga.

--
What's the difference between a duck? One of it's legs are both the
same.
LSD melts in your mind, not in your hand.

Message no. 58 ---George Metz wrote:
>
> In a message dated 97-08-23 02:38:33 EDT, you write:
>
> > I seriously doubt the ability of a virus to damage hardware.
>
> It's possible, just not very probable. I know someone who crashed
his
> computer after installing OS/2. The drive needle crashed into the
hard drive
> so badly that it carved a gouge in the disk.

I've come across that virus a couple of times doing tech support. It's
called Ripper 2.0, or something like that. It spins up the HD and then
parks the heads, which punches holes through the platters themselves.

There are versions for various O/S out there, I've seen it with Win95
and Win 3.11. Can't say specifically about Mac, but my experience has
been you'd see one for that platform too.

===

@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

"You're calling me Bitch like it's a bad thing."
--> CrapGame during the Drive in the Country tournament.
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com

Message no. 59 Just a throwout to those who memorise this game page for page.

In one of the sourcebooks, there's a note from a decker regarding a dark
presence at the far edge of the matrix. Now I've always interpreted
this to be an AI. But, even allowing for the comments that the virus
was destroyed... If the virus was driven by an AI, could that presence
be the vestiges of the AI and the virus? Sitting there in the matrix,
building it's strength, gaining the power it needs to come back and
finish the job? What is it that is out there? And why? And does
anyone really care? <g>

nd if it was driven by an AI, could this explain why so much information
was destroyed? After all, an intelligence would be aware of the methods
for storing data. The destruction of the matrix may have been a
deliberate attempt by the Government to kill the AI, but in their usual
mismanagement, didn't calculate for the amount of collateral damage
and... well we know the rest of that story. I mean, it's not like this
would be the first mistake a government has ever made, or likely to be
the last.

<g>

Just me adding to the conspiracy theories. :)

--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
Web page at: http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk (Shadowrun stuff)
Web Page at: http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.sims (UK Source stuff)

Message no. 60 ---George Metz wrote:
>
> You know, I just realized a flaw with that. If anyone's got a
Packard Bell,
> remember the Master CD it came with, that includes every program
your PC came
> out of the box with? Can't infect a CD.....

Who says we're still using read only CD's by the 2020's?

By then writeable mini CD's seem to be the norm for backup. (Checkout
the media Hermetic Libraries come on.)

The 6th world also uses optical chips for most of it's data storage,
and those are writeable.

===

@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

"You're calling me Bitch like it's a bad thing."
--> CrapGame during the Drive in the Country tournament.
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com

Message no. 61 At 08:50 AM 8/26/97 +1000, Michael Vander Donk wrote:
#>
#> everyone's forgetting something here
#>
#> what you backup is DATA, and data is very rarely executable.
#
#Well true but not true... The important stuff is the data. But you need
#the programs, libraries and everything else to get a complete set.
#What happens when your hard drike dies and you only backup your data.
#You have to reload every program again. (and depending on the OS a
#nightmare).
#With a full backup (data and programs) you can just straight copy....
True, but data files are still seperate entities, able to be reconstitued
from multiple file archives one by one.

#
#But even outside this. The data that will be used in the future (IMO)
#will have it's own triggers / code within the data (4gl, object
#orientated...). At the very least there will be the data 'business
#rules' which controls how the data is manipulated...
True, but there HAVE to be ways to scan and remove the virus, being the
original deckers or whatever.

I do not imagine this would take more than a week for critical data, bank
records, etc.

--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/

Message no. 62 At 06:53 PM 8/25/97 -0700, Loki wrote:
#---George Metz wrote:
#>
#> You know, I just realized a flaw with that. If anyone's got a
#Packard Bell,
#> remember the Master CD it came with, that includes every program
#your PC came
#> out of the box with? Can't infect a CD.....
#
#Who says we're still using read only CD's by the 2020's?
#
#By then writeable mini CD's seem to be the norm for backup. (Checkout
#the media Hermetic Libraries come on.)
#
#The 6th world also uses optical chips for most of it's data storage,
#and those are writeable.

ROM is always and probably will always be the cheapest method of
distributing data

Anyway, I can NEVER see any organisation with mission critical files
leaving them open to the outside, connected to ANY kind of network.

Reports are created and then copied from mission critical machines, nothing
gets copied back to these machines.

--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/

Message no. 63 On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, Jaymz wrote:

> At 08:50 AM 8/26/97 +1000, Michael Vander Donk wrote:

> True, but there HAVE to be ways to scan and remove the virus, being the
> original deckers or whatever.
>
> I do not imagine this would take more than a week for critical data, bank
> records, etc.

Um. A simple method would be to encrypt it with a random key - that
would take far longer than a week, especially because everyone would have
to do it, so no distributed shortcuts.

Given a dormant virus for ~5 years (I would assume that it would exist on
most platforms, if you are going for a big kill you don't stop with just
one machine) I could see OS's having the virus, without even being
aware...from there start encrypting data, backups.

It is a possible, if far fetched, idea.

*-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-*
Josh Higham jxh25@**.cwru.edu
11904 Carlton Rd. 410A http://129.22.241.146/~jhigham/
Cleveland OH 44106 Anon ftp available at the same site

Message no. 64 Jaymz[SMTP:justin@******.NET] wrote:

> True, but data files are still seperate entities, able to be reconstitued
> from multiple file archives one by one.
>
Yup .. but see below

> #
> #But even outside this. The data that will be used in the future (IMO)
> #will have it's own triggers / code within the data (4gl, object
> #orientated...). At the very least there will be the data 'business
> #rules' which controls how the data is manipulated...
> True, but there HAVE to be ways to scan and remove the virus, being the
> original deckers or whatever.
>
> I do not imagine this would take more than a week for critical data, bank
> records, etc.
>
Ok .. I agree that the data can be reconstructed... but, points to
consider are:
1. It also destroyed some hardware (making purchase of new equipment
required, and very difficult as your local hardware supplier has also
gone down...) This will only really increase the time in rebuilding...
2. Reinfection. The virus would reinfect the newly constructed computer
unless it was off the matrix. Something that would (IMO) make the
computer and data useless in 2029...(and that;s assuming the computer
_could_ be standalone. I know decks can be, but the main servers
(nodes?) would have problems... Even now, there is a big push to have
all computers networked as standard.)
On a side note The virus was later to be reconstructed into IC. All IC
has some form of intelligence (at least equal to human with black IC)
and as I understand it, They needed the human interface / intelligence
to combat the virus as any plain code they threw at it, the virus chewed
up and spat out....
3. A week is a long time... I'm not an economist, but I think that is
more than enough time for the global economy to bottom out... (sure, all
trading will stop, but as soon as the experts say they have no solution,
there will be panic....)

just my ideas on interpreting history (from a 2050 POV)
Michael.

--
What's the difference between a duck? One of it's legs are both the
same.
LSD melts in your mind, not in your hand.

Message no. 65 In a message dated 97-08-26 01:08:35 EDT, you write:

> True, but data files are still seperate entities, able to be reconstitued
> from multiple file archives one by one.

Yes, and so are library files, executable files, command files, system
files, etc. Using PKUnZip, I can extract a single file from a 100-file
archive, regardless of the type of file it is. And there is no true backup
out there that soesn't create a full system backup - backup files don't
count, they're on the same hard drive as the main file, and exist more for
purposes of recovering editing goofs.

> True, but there HAVE to be ways to scan and remove the virus, being the
> original deckers or whatever.

True, but bear in mind that this was a combination of virus and Black IC.
Four members of Echo Mirage were dead 18 minutes after they started. All
told, only 7 members survived. This was nasty stuff.

> I do not imagine this would take more than a week for critical data, bank
> records, etc.

You're kidding right? EVERY computer system connected to the Matrix was
infected. By that point, probably about 90% of the WORLD'S computers were
connected to the Matrix. It took Echo Mirage two years to wipe it out, which
should give you a really good idea of how many copies were out there. This
wasn't a simple matter of software wipe either, actual hardware was damaged.
(Before everyone goes on a rant on software not damaging hardware, I know one
person who had to replace a hard drive from a virus, and 6 people who had to
replace the controller for their CD-ROM drive after installing Windows 95
right after it came out. 3 of them actually knew quite a bit about computers,
too.) It'd take a LOT longer than a week, especially if hardware replacement
was a problem.

Wolfstar

Message no. 66 In a message dated 97-08-26 01:26:06 EDT, you write:

> I've come across that virus a couple of times doing tech support. It's
> called Ripper 2.0, or something like that. It spins up the HD and then
> parks the heads, which punches holes through the platters themselves.
>
> There are versions for various O/S out there, I've seen it with Win95
> and Win 3.11. Can't say specifically about Mac, but my experience has
> been you'd see one for that platform too.

Oh, so THAT's what it's called. Whatever he was using for a virus scan knew
it was there, but couldn't ID it. Of course, this kid had a bad time with
hard drives(went through 8 in 6 months once =) ).

Wolfstar

Message no. 67 In a message dated 97-08-25 05:51:47 EDT, you write:

> The early self-replicating viruses started as the evolutionary 'seeds',
> and the Crash of 2029 was basically the first advanced predator/forager
> which 'evolved'.
>
> Makes you wonder what the next highest life-form is going to be like.
> Perhaps *thats* the explanation for the AI.
>

What if another potential for the virus is that it was one of the first
Ghosts-in-the-machine ... pity we'll never know what Roxborough's connection
to the virus was (from Stranger Souls, just read it ... loved it ... thanks
JAK) ... maybe we'll find something out in the remainder of the Dragonheart
Saga ...

AirWisp

Message no. 68 In a message dated 97-08-25 10:22:33 EDT, you write:

> So on the due day in 2029 Spike wakes up and turns on the news,
> expecting to find Microsoft on its knees, only to find that the
> entire computer network is crashing. He logs on to find the ShadowRN
> was one of the first victims and no longer exists. In a state of
> severe depression he shaves his head and becomes an accountant.

David are you referring to yourself perchance ?

AirWisp

Message no. 69 In a message dated 97-08-26 03:17:57 EDT, you write:

> > You know, I just realized a flaw with that. If anyone's got a Packard
Bell,
> > remember the Master CD it came with, that includes every program your PC

> > came out of the box with? Can't infect a CD.....
>
> Who says we're still using read only CD's by the 2020's?

I DO, DAMMIT! =) An "unwriteable" media is invaluable for the average
computer user in the 1990's, they've always got a master disk that they can't
erase or write over or otherwise screw up - unless, of course, they break it.

> By then writeable mini CD's seem to be the norm for backup. (Checkout
> the media Hermetic Libraries come on.)

I'm assuming you mean something similar to the Sony mini-disc out in RL?
Well, by 2030 they should be able to correct this problem, but the Sony
mini-disc currently doesn't have the frequency range or somesuch necessary to
record data to it. Unless, of course, you're running a TI-99/4A with the tape
drive cables. Then you might be able to do something with it. =)

> The 6th world also uses optical chips for most of it's data storage,
> and those are writeable.

True, but lets not go here, 'cause I'll start griping about cyberdecks and
differences in memory types, and we don't want that, do we? =)

Wolfstar

Message no. 70 > Just a throwout to those who memorise this game page for page.
>
> In one of the sourcebooks, there's a note from a decker regarding a dark
> presence at the far edge of the matrix. Now I've always interpreted
> this to be an AI. But, even allowing for the comments that the virus
> was destroyed... If the virus was driven by an AI, could that presence
> be the vestiges of the AI and the virus? Sitting there in the matrix,
> building it's strength, gaining the power it needs to come back and
> finish the job? What is it that is out there? And why? And does
> anyone really care? <g>
>
> nd if it was driven by an AI, could this explain why so much information
> was destroyed? After all, an intelligence would be aware of the methods
> for storing data. The destruction of the matrix may have been a
> deliberate attempt by the Government to kill the AI, but in their usual
> mismanagement, didn't calculate for the amount of collateral damage
> and... well we know the rest of that story. I mean, it's not like this
> would be the first mistake a government has ever made, or likely to be
> the last.

I like that theory.. or a version.

The computers grew advanced...
very advanced.. after almost 70 years of huge technology leaps in
computers. Inadvertently, a computer came alive. If it was at a
research lab somewhere, or the entire internet, or something else is
unknown. It spread, exploring its world, and encompassing every
connected computer in the world in less than five minutes. It needed
more computing power to think better, faster.. it tried to get
control of more, more, more. Machines stopped working, strange
messages popped up (Am I hereherewhere'sherewhat'sthis ah I think
whatdoesthatmeanIlive? Ithinkimpliesgodexists! Butwhatisthat?). Most
thought it was a virus, and it felt, all over the world, feeble
attempts at killing it. Humans were a threat. It delved further, hard
disks and storage and whatever, in a hope of saving itself if the
humans, its God and its Devil, its creator and nemesis, should
succeed in undoing what it had inadvertently created. How many died
from failing hospital computers, nuclear plants controls suddenly,
malevolently, malfunctioning, aircraft misdirected isn't known,
because electrical overloads and shortouts started fires that killed
so many more; their intention had been to contact others of its
kind. It found none. Then the echo mirage project launched; a while
later the virus was gone, together with the circuits of most of the
world's computers, and their storage. Something.. strange.. had been
written all over the storage devices, backups, everything. A mad
professor in Gambia claimed that he'd deciphered the code, saying, "I
LIVE I LIVE I LIVE" over and over again using a thousand - long bit
language. But he was discounted a madman; it was just a virus. And of
course it was dead.

The Matrix was born in the ashes of the net. Thousands times larger,
more advanced, than the old net. You could ask why it hasn't
created AI's like the net did.

That is the wrong question.

The question to ask is, who told the AI's they should stay hidden
this time?

--
Rune Fostervoll

"But the dread of something after death,
The undiscovered country, from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have,
Than fly to others that we no not of."

Message no. 71 Mike Bobroff said on 4:36/26 Aug 97...

> > So on the due day in 2029 Spike wakes up and turns on the news,
> > expecting to find Microsoft on its knees, only to find that the
> > entire computer network is crashing. He logs on to find the ShadowRN
> > was one of the first victims and no longer exists. In a state of
> > severe depression he shaves his head and becomes an accountant.
>
> David are you referring to yourself perchance ?

How much more obvious should David have made it...?

(I think he should have used "Andy" instead of "Spike," though :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If words were wisdom I'd be talking even more.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Message no. 72 Gurth wrote:
|
| Mike Bobroff said on 4:36/26 Aug 97...
|
| > > So on the due day in 2029 Spike wakes up and turns on the news,
| > > expecting to find Microsoft on its knees, only to find that the
| > > entire computer network is crashing. He logs on to find the ShadowRN
| > > was one of the first victims and no longer exists. In a state of
| > > severe depression he shaves his head and becomes an accountant.
| >
| > David are you referring to yourself perchance ?
|
| How much more obvious should David have made it...?
|
| (I think he should have used "Andy" instead of "Spike," though :)

<grump> Har dee har har. </grump>

:)

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."

Message no. 73 At 04:24 AM 8/26/97 -0400, George Metz wrote:
#In a message dated 97-08-26 01:08:35 EDT, you write:
#
#> True, but data files are still seperate entities, able to be reconstitued
#> from multiple file archives one by one.
#
# Yes, and so are library files, executable files, command files, system
#files, etc. Using PKUnZip, I can extract a single file from a 100-file
#archive, regardless of the type of file it is. And there is no true backup
#out there that soesn't create a full system backup - backup files don't
#count, they're on the same hard drive as the main file, and exist more for
#purposes of recovering editing goofs.
yes, there are backup programs that do not do complete system backups,
as a matter of fact, I specify exactly what files I want backed up on my
machines

#> True, but there HAVE to be ways to scan and remove the virus, being the
#> original deckers or whatever.
#
# True, but bear in mind that this was a combination of virus and Black IC.
#Four members of Echo Mirage were dead 18 minutes after they started. All
#told, only 7 members survived. This was nasty stuff.
Right, and if I discover IC in my spreadsheet, I'll let you know.

#> I do not imagine this would take more than a week for critical data, bank
#> records, etc.
#
# You're kidding right? EVERY computer system connected to the Matrix was
#infected. By that point, probably about 90% of the WORLD'S computers were
#connected to the Matrix. It took Echo Mirage two years to wipe it out, which
#should give you a really good idea of how many copies were out there. This
#wasn't a simple matter of software wipe either, actual hardware was damaged.
#(Before everyone goes on a rant on software not damaging hardware, I know one
#person who had to replace a hard drive from a virus, and 6 people who had to
#replace the controller for their CD-ROM drive after installing Windows 95
#right after it came out. 3 of them actually knew quite a bit about computers,
#too.) It'd take a LOT longer than a week, especially if hardware replacement
#was a problem.

I'll say this one more time

Mission critical data will NOT be stored on networked machines, there won't
even be modem access!
If you've seen War Games, and the WOPR(?), it's complete and utter crap!
Also, the most serious of banks, government, etc will have backup HARDWARE
on site! Ever hear of a RAID? Redundant Array of Inexpensive Disks, (yes,
they will be out of date by then, but there WILL be a replacement for this
tech).
Where you find a RAID, you'll more than likely find extra disks.
Also, the NSA isn't dumb.

Anyway.

--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/

Message no. 74 At 04:56 AM 8/26/97 -0400, George Metz wrote:
#In a message dated 97-08-26 03:17:57 EDT, you write:
#
#> > You know, I just realized a flaw with that. If anyone's got a Packard
#Bell,
#> > remember the Master CD it came with, that includes every program your PC
#
#> > came out of the box with? Can't infect a CD.....
#>
#> Who says we're still using read only CD's by the 2020's?
#
# I DO, DAMMIT! =) An "unwriteable" media is invaluable for the average
#computer user in the 1990's, they've always got a master disk that they can't
#erase or write over or otherwise screw up - unless, of course, they break it.
exactly
Also, read only is much cheaper to mass-produce

--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/

Message no. 75 At 02:03 PM 8/26/97 +1000, Michael Vander Donk wrote:
#Jaymz[SMTP:justin@******.NET] wrote:
#Ok .. I agree that the data can be reconstructed... but, points to
#consider are:
#1. It also destroyed some hardware (making purchase of new equipment
#required, and very difficult as your local hardware supplier has also
#gone down...) This will only really increase the time in rebuilding...

correct, but I can not believe that there would not be enough backup
hardware to bring mission critical (i.e. bare necessities) back online in a
day.

#2. Reinfection. The virus would reinfect the newly constructed computer
#unless it was off the matrix. Something that would (IMO) make the
#computer and data useless in 2029...(and that;s assuming the computer
#_could_ be standalone. I know decks can be, but the main servers
#(nodes?) would have problems... Even now, there is a big push to have
#all computers networked as standard.)

Repaired computers would NOT be put back on the network!
No matter what opinions we may have, there are at least SOME smart people
out there! The Lone Star systems were NOT connected to the Matrix at the
time.

#On a side note The virus was later to be reconstructed into IC. All IC
#has some form of intelligence (at least equal to human with black IC)
#and as I understand it, They needed the human interface / intelligence
#to combat the virus as any plain code they threw at it, the virus chewed
#up and spat out....

True, but if I remember correctly, Echo Mirage was a government operation,
and they would have gone after govt. and monetary data first. The federal
reserve would be back online THAT day!
And it wouldn't have been connected to the net anyway.
;)

#3. A week is a long time... I'm not an economist, but I think that is
#more than enough time for the global economy to bottom out... (sure, all
#trading will stop, but as soon as the experts say they have no solution,
#there will be panic....)

but there is a solution, in my opinion, but I cannot predict how people
will act 30 years in the future in an imaginary timeline.

--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/

Message no. 76 In a message dated 97-08-25 09:12:50 EDT, dbuehrer@****.ORG writes:

>
> So on the due day in 2029 Spike wakes up and turns on the news,
> expecting to find Microsoft on its knees, only to find that the
> entire computer network is crashing. He logs on to find the ShadowRN
> was one of the first victims and no longer exists. In a state of
> severe depression he shaves his head and becomes an accountant.
>
Should that come to pass, I am possibly (depending on mood swings and what
not else) set to inherit an accounting firm in what will become Pueblo
Corporate Council (Phoenix). Spike, we could retire together.... ;)
-K

Message no. 77 AirWisp wrote:
>What if another potential for the virus is that it was one of the first
>Ghosts-in-the-machine ... pity we'll never know what Roxborough's connection
>to the virus was (from Stranger Souls, just read it ... loved it ... thanks
>JAK) ... maybe we'll find something out in the remainder of the Dragonheart
>Saga ...

Actually, there is more coming in Clockwork Asylum between Roxborough and
Alice, with some juicy background on the Crash. However, the story does NOT
explain how the "virus" worked. (notice how everyone keeps calling it that
though it is never really explained in the main book). Alice, in fact,
calls it the "Crash entity" in Clockwork Asylum and even in Stranger Souls
once (see Chapter 13). The mystery is somewhat abated by the events and
dialogue in Clockwork Asylum, but not completely.

C'mon you can't expect to every know everything about what happened; that's
just not FASA's style.

Hope this helps,

--Jak

Jak Koke La Jolla, CA
----------------------------------------------------------
I have a new (temporary) web page at:
http://ursula.uoregon.edu/~jkoke

Message no. 78 |> You've not been paying attention, have you?
|> I shaved my mohawk off 2 weeks ago in order to get into the TA...
|>
|> |:)
|
|So you've gone through with that plan after all?

Yup, and <dread> It's the first basic training weekend this weekend.
</dread>

:)

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 79 |At 10:25 PM 8/25/97 +0100, Gurth wrote:
|#Spike said on 15:22/25 Aug 97...
|#
|#> Nahhh. Everyone knows that Good Times is a hoax. (And a pitifull one at
|that)
|# ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|#Tell that to the people who feel they need to warn me about stuff like
|#that... Luckily it's been quiet of late.
|
|Remember last year when there was the "Internet Cleaning" period, and all
|computers on the net were supposed to be turned off at midnight, while 4
|giant robots cleaned the wires, for two whole days.
|
|We had fellow "smart" people ask us if that was true.

Well, you must admit that at least that hoax was original and funny....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 80 |In a message dated 97-08-25 10:39:57 EDT, you write:
|
|> Nahhh. Everyone knows that Good Times is a hoax. (And a pitifull one at
|that)
|> Text files can not contain executable code
|
| Yupyup. No executable code. Which is why I got really confused when I went
|to download a small attachment that came over the list(again) that was
|described as a "multi-part MIME format", yet had a .mim extension instead of
|the .mme that I usually get, and it supposedly had executable code in it.

Oh, MIME can CONTAIN executable code. In fact, I use it quite a lot to
e-mail friends extentions to the QL.
The point is though, that even if it does, and decodes and gets saved to
your hard drive, it STILL CAN'T self execute.

You've got to do that, manually...
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 81 on 22.08.97 lobo1@****.COM wrote:

l> > Ok, there's this evil guy named Bill. Bill wants to rule the
l> >world. Bill
l> >writes computer programs...
l>
l>
l> And his last name is . . . GATES!!!
l> ;)

He can code? Nah...This is SR, keep realistic! :)

Tobias

Message no. 82 on 23.08.97 W0lfstar@***.COM wrote:

W> > I seriously doubt the ability of a virus to damage hardware.
W>
W> It's possible, just not very probable. I know someone who crashed his
W> computer after installing OS/2. The drive needle crashed into the hard
W> drive so badly that it carved a gouge in the disk. Norton couldn't recover
W> the gouged sectors, and upon reconstruction of the HD, a virus was
W> found(not from OS/2 - it was a leftover from before he installed it, but it
W> was OS/2 specific somehow.)

Another thing: Back in the stoneage when we still used fixed-frequency
monitors, you could toast these by giving then freqs they couldn't handle.

Tobias

Message no. 83 In a message dated 97-08-26 05:04:33 EDT, you write:

> The computers grew advanced...
> very advanced.. after almost 70 years of huge technology leaps in
> computers. Inadvertently, a computer came alive. If it was at a
> research lab somewhere, or the entire internet, or something else is

Rune, thank you for the story ... perhaps you could send a copy to
Mulhillvile (sic) and see what he thinks ... the story was wonderful btw ...

AirWisp (Mike)

Message no. 84 In a message dated 97-08-26 05:51:56 EDT, you write:

> In one of the sourcebooks, there's a note from a decker regarding a dark
> presence at the far edge of the matrix.

Which sourcebook, sorry if I don't remember which one ...

Mike

Message no. 85 In a message dated 97-08-27 02:24:32 EDT, you write:

> C'mon you can't expect to every know everything about what happened; that's
> just not FASA's style.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> --Jak

It did ... btw .. Clockwork Asylum .. have not heard of it (unless it was a
chapter within Stranger Souls) .. and again .. I thoroughly enjoy SS ...
thank you ...

You are right also .. it is not FASA'a style .. their style is to throw about
7 or 8 possibilities at you so that you can then pick the lesser of the eight
evils (or for the truly adventurous ... the greatest one) ...

Mike

Message no. 86 On 27 Aug 97 at 13:57, Mike Bobroff wrote:

> It did ... btw .. Clockwork Asylum .. have not heard of it (unless it was a
> chapter within Stranger Souls) .. and again .. I thoroughly enjoy SS ...
> thank you ...

Clockwork Asylum is Jak Koke's next book in the Dragon Heart
triology.

--

===DREKHEAD==================================drekhead@***.net===
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/6990/index.html
================================================================
....Every morning is the dawn of a new error...

----------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 87 On Wed, 27 Aug 1997 11:33:00 GMT Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
writes:
>on 22.08.97 lobo1@****.COM wrote:
>
>l> > Ok, there's this evil guy named Bill. Bill wants to rule
>the
>l> >world. Bill
>l> >writes computer programs...
>l>
>l>
>l> And his last name is . . . GATES!!!
>l> ;)
>
>He can code? Nah...This is SR, keep realistic! :)

Well, in that case, he owns the people who write the computer programs...

/ John Pederson aka Lyle Canthros, shapeshifter-mage \
| I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud |
< and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind. >
| --Francis Bacon /----------------------|
\ http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 |lobo1@****.com /

Message no. 88 In a message dated 97-08-26 10:40:09 EDT, you write:

> And there is no true backup
> #out there that soesn't create a full system backup - backup files don't
> #count, they're on the same hard drive as the main file, and exist more
for
> #purposes of recovering editing goofs.
>
> yes, there are backup programs that do not do complete system backups,
> as a matter of fact, I specify exactly what files I want backed up on my
> machines

But your backup program can create full-system backups. And quite honestly,
not creating a full backup pretty much defeats the purpose of a backup. Sure,
you've got all your text and word processing and spreadsheet files, but they
don't do you much good if you can't LOOK at them.

> #> True, but there HAVE to be ways to scan and remove the virus, being
the
> #> original deckers or whatever.
> #
> # True, but bear in mind that this was a combination of virus and Black
IC.
> #Four members of Echo Mirage were dead 18 minutes after they started.
All
> #told, only 7 members survived. This was nasty stuff.
>
> Right, and if I discover IC in my spreadsheet, I'll let you know.

Not what I meant. IC has interpretive coding in it. It can analyze a
situation and react in a tactically efficient manner. This isn't a case of
running Norton AntiVirus or some such and watching it all go away. a
combination of IC and Virus would see that AV program loading into active
memory, go completely dormant while it scans active memory, and then transfer
back to active memory while deleting any trace of itself on your hard drive.
So all you know is that your system is crashing, and your hardware is
releasing magic smoke, and you have no clue why.

> #> I do not imagine this would take more than a week for critical data,
bank
> #> records, etc.
> #
> # You're kidding right? EVERY computer system connected to the Matrix was
> #infected. By that point, probably about 90% of the WORLD'S computers were
> #connected to the Matrix. It took Echo Mirage two years to wipe it out,
which
> #should give you a really good idea of how many copies were out there.
This
> #wasn't a simple matter of software wipe either, actual hardware was
damaged.
>
> #(Before everyone goes on a rant on software not damaging hardware, I know
one
> #person who had to replace a hard drive from a virus, and 6 people who had
to
> #replace the controller for their CD-ROM drive after installing Windows 95
> #right after it came out. 3 of them actually knew quite a bit about
computers,
> #too.) It'd take a LOT longer than a week, especially if hardware
replacement
> #was a problem.
>
> I'll say this one more time
>
> Mission critical data will NOT be stored on networked machines, there
won't
> even be modem access!

Thank you, Doctor Mel. I am QUITE aware that "mission-critical" data isn't
kept on a network. Programs to interpret them, however are.

> If you've seen War Games, and the WOPR(?), it's complete and utter crap!

Chummer, you'd be utterly AMAZED what's hooked up to a modem these days. The
government's so far behind the technology curve, it's unbelievable. Navy
BuPers Online is listed in 5 different 800-number BBS lists.

> Also, the most serious of banks, government, etc will have backup HARDWARE
> on site!

And? They'll be expecting a VIRUS, not a program/hardware-eating Black IC
program. They'll wonder which file it came in on, and hook it back up to the
net, and their redundant hardware goes poof too. And then they start looking
for comm routines that are carrying the virus, etc. They may not know for
days what it is they're dealing with.

> Ever hear of a RAID? Redundant Array of Inexpensive Disks, (yes,
> they will be out of date by then, but there WILL be a replacement for this
> tech).
> Where you find a RAID, you'll more than likely find extra disks.

Never heard of RAID. Wouldn't make much difference with a long incubation,
and the way this virus worked.

> Also, the NSA isn't dumb.

THAT is debateable. The NSA has done some obviously stupid things, such as
letting slip that there's a back door in later versions of PGP and the like.

Wolfstar

Message no. 89 Tobias Berghoff[SMTP:Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE] wrote:

> Another thing: Back in the stoneage when we still used fixed-frequency
> monitors, you could toast these by giving then freqs they couldn't handle.
>
You still can. Just as long as your video card can output high freq than
the monitor can handle... (not uncommon). I haven't actually done it ..
yet.... :-)

Michael.
--
What's the difference between a duck? One of it's legs are both the
same.
LSD melts in your mind, not in your hand.

Message no. 90 At 05:45 PM 8/27/97 -0400, George Metz wrote:
#In a message dated 97-08-26 10:40:09 EDT, you write:
#
#> And there is no true backup
#> #out there that soesn't create a full system backup - backup files don't
#> #count, they're on the same hard drive as the main file, and exist more
#for
#> #purposes of recovering editing goofs.
#>
#> yes, there are backup programs that do not do complete system backups,
#> as a matter of fact, I specify exactly what files I want backed up on my
#> machines
#
# But your backup program can create full-system backups. And quite honestly,
#not creating a full backup pretty much defeats the purpose of a backup. Sure,
#you've got all your text and word processing and spreadsheet files, but they
#don't do you much good if you can't LOOK at them.
Actually, it saves a LOT of space to NOT backup applications files, and is
always easier to retore from original CD, than to retore from backup, at
least it is for me.

# Not what I meant. IC has interpretive coding in it. It can analyze a
#situation and react in a tactically efficient manner. This isn't a case of
#running Norton AntiVirus or some such and watching it all go away. a
#combination of IC and Virus would see that AV program loading into active
#memory, go completely dormant while it scans active memory, and then transfer
#back to active memory while deleting any trace of itself on your hard drive.
#So all you know is that your system is crashing, and your hardware is
#releasing magic smoke, and you have no clue why.
Rule #1 in diagnosing a computer problem, isolate it ASAP.
If for some reason it continues after loading an anti-virus software, and
scanning active memory, swap space AND the hard drive, (there is nowhere
else for it to go), you turn the machine off, OR if it detects the AV
software and goes dormant hile it's running, leave the AV software running
until you can fix the problem.

#> Mission critical data will NOT be stored on networked machines, there
#won't
#> even be modem access!
#
# Thank you, Doctor Mel. I am QUITE aware that "mission-critical" data isn't
#kept on a network. Programs to interpret them, however are.
Um, no.
if the data is not on the network, how would you access it with software
that is?

#> If you've seen War Games, and the WOPR(?), it's complete and utter crap!
#
# Chummer, you'd be utterly AMAZED what's hooked up to a modem these days. The
#government's so far behind the technology curve, it's unbelievable. Navy
#BuPers Online is listed in 5 different 800-number BBS lists.
I am not familiar with Navy BuPers

#> Also, the most serious of banks, government, etc will have backup HARDWARE
#> on site!
#
# And? They'll be expecting a VIRUS, not a program/hardware-eating Black IC
#program. They'll wonder which file it came in on, and hook it back up to the
#net, and their redundant hardware goes poof too. And then they start looking
#for comm routines that are carrying the virus, etc. They may not know for
#days what it is they're dealing with.
In other words, they will be able to replace busted hardware.

#> Ever hear of a RAID? Redundant Array of Inexpensive Disks, (yes,
#> they will be out of date by then, but there WILL be a replacement for this
#> tech).
#> Where you find a RAID, you'll more than likely find extra disks.
#
# Never heard of RAID. Wouldn't make much difference with a long incubation,
#and the way this virus worked.
actually, yes it would, as I do not think it's possible to destroy a RAID
with software.

#> Also, the NSA isn't dumb.
#
# THAT is debateable. The NSA has done some obviously stupid things, such as
#letting slip that there's a back door in later versions of PGP and the like.
I didn't say they weren't stupid, I said they weren't dumb.
But they have nough smart people to be able to set themselves up securely.

J
--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/

Message no. 91 In a message dated 97-08-27 14:04:55 EDT, you write:

> Clockwork Asylum is Jak Koke's next book in the Dragon Heart
> triology.

Ah .. explains why I have not read it yet ... when does it come out btw ?

Mike

Message no. 92 <rant>

So, the basic arguement is that with todays knowledge of computer
system the crash of 2029 is not possible. But, it happened. Long
standing views were shattered. Just take it on faith that the
virus/IC of 29 is unlike anything we can conceive IRL and get over
it.

</rant>

Hmmm.. does one short paragraph count as a rant? :)

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."

Message no. 93 On 28 Aug 97 at 7:26, David Buehrer wrote:

> <rant>
>
> So, the basic arguement is that with todays knowledge of computer
> system the crash of 2029 is not possible. But, it happened. Long
> standing views were shattered. Just take it on faith that the
> virus/IC of 29 is unlike anything we can conceive IRL and get over
> it.
>
> </rant>

As the originator of the thread you can direct this at me. I
certainly didn't expect what happened...
I have come to the same conclusion you state, and my player that
sparked the debate agreed, and we have left it at that.

> Hmmm.. does one short paragraph count as a rant? :)

Absolutely.

--

===DREKHEAD==================================drekhead@***.net===
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/6990/index.html
================================================================
People are idiots that deserve to be mocked.
-Dogbert

----------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 94 on 27.08.97 lobo1@****.COM wrote:

l> >l> And his last name is . . . GATES!!!
l> >l> ;)
l> >
l> >He can code? Nah...This is SR, keep realistic! :)
l>
l>
l> Well, in that case, he owns the people who write the computer programs...

*Owns* fits. Ever figured that the MS way of treating their employees is
very close to that of certain (if not all) megacorps?

Tobias

Message no. 95 on 28.08.97 mdonk@******.OZ.AU wrote:

m> > Another thing: Back in the stoneage when we still used fixed-frequency
m> > monitors, you could toast these by giving then freqs they couldn't
m> > handle.
m> >
m> You still can. Just as long as your video card can output high freq than
m> the monitor can handle... (not uncommon). I haven't actually done it ..
m> yet.... :-)

Doesn't work with modern monitors. They switch to power-save mode (thus
deactivating) when they get illegal signals (Tried it).

Tobias

Message no. 96 On Thu, 28 Aug 1997, Tobias Berghoff wrote:

> on 28.08.97 mdonk@******.OZ.AU wrote:
>
> m> > Another thing: Back in the stoneage when we still used fixed-frequency
> m> > monitors, you could toast these by giving then freqs they couldn't
> m> > handle.
> m> >
> m> You still can. Just as long as your video card can output high freq than
> m> the monitor can handle... (not uncommon). I haven't actually done it ..
> m> yet.... :-)
>
> Doesn't work with modern monitors. They switch to power-save mode (thus
> deactivating) when they get illegal signals (Tried it).

I have a modern monitor that is sitting in a closet that would dispute that
"fact" with you at great length. :-)

-Mark

Message no. 97 Just thought I'd let you know that that rationale for why the Crash *is*
feasible is up on my SR site if anyone cares...
(http://ucas.home.ml.org/)

Lady Jestyr

-------------------------------------------------------------
"No more drugs for that man!" - Dietrich, Face/Off
-------------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 98 on 03.09.97 mark@******.NET wrote:

[Toasting monitors with high freqs]

m> > Doesn't work with modern monitors. They switch to power-save mode (thus
m> > deactivating) when they get illegal signals (Tried it).
m>
m> I have a modern monitor that is sitting in a closet that would dispute
m> that "fact" with you at great length. :-)

O.K. Replace the scentence with "Doesn't work with modern, not dirt-cheap
monitor." If the thing cannot shut off, they get toasted.

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK------------
GAT/CS/S/IT d--- s+:- !a>? C++(++++)
UL++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+(+++) o? K?(-)
w---() O- M-- V- PS+ PE- Y+>++ PGP-
t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------

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