Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject:	Crash of 29
Date:	Fri, 2 Jan 1998 10:49:20 -0700

Message no. 1 RSN-generator. It stands for "Random Stupid Name"...:)

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
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Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 18:44:01 +0000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Organization: Virtual Poetry
Subject: Re: More Clues (Re: Inherent Magical Response)
In-Reply-To: <80a6e283.34ac1df4@***.com>

On 1 Jan 98 at 17:51, Ereskanti wrote:

> In a message dated 98-01-01 15:45:18 EST, t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE
> writes:
> > That's a bit different from what Mike told me... <g>
> >
> Yes, well, Mike and I don't exchange -all- of our information... ;) But try
> and think of that POV for the character...imagine if that approach on Magical
> Edges were taken (which is what they are, even by Steve Kensons' definitions)
> and such a situation occurred. The Magic, which is tied somehow to one's
> "essence" or "magic" decides to protect itself, the ultimate in
"subconscious
> response mechanism

From:	Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Fri, 2 Jan 1998 13:00:59 -0500

Message no. 2 It's been brought up before that it doesn't make sense that the Crash
of 29 could have wiped out so much data, because back-ups would not
have been affected by the rogue virus since they were offline. It
would have been a simple matter of waiting until after the virus was
beaten and loading the back-ups to restore everything back to where
they were before the crash.

But, what if there was enough corporate paranoia at the time that
most everyone was encrypting their backups? It'd make sense because
even the most secure computer system doesn't matter if someone walks
in and steals your backups. Even if you've got great physical
security its a small investment to encrypt you backups. And what if
most everyone was using hardware encryption? You only have to put
the encryption hardware in a vault behind several layers of physical
security. If you use encryption software someone can hack it (at
least that's what you think if you're paranoid :) If the virus had
the same capabilities as current Black IC and was able to burn out
hardware then it could have burnt out the encryption chips, making
the backups worthless. The chips could have been replaced but
there'd be no way to match the algorithms.

Just a thought :)

-David
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes.
Art is knowing which ones to keep."
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 12:47:40 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject

From:	Stefan <casanova@******.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Fri, 2 Jan 1998 20:17:30 +0000

Message no. 3 spoilers for Stranger Souls
I
h
a
v
e
a
l
l
w
a
y
s

w
a
n
t
e
d

t
o

d
o

t
h
i
s

good

wouldn't that be exactly what they were doing in Jack's book? put a brain
into a new body?

Czar-woh just wanted to post something due to e-mail withdrawal
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Czar Eggbert
Ruler, Dark Side of the Moon.
homepage: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/5648
mailto:czregbrt@*********.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Reality!? Is that some new game?"
-MDF
"I'll need morphine, lots of it, and a pistol."
-The English Patient
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 12:41:14 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Russ Myrick <ceedawg@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Gurth wrote:

> Zixx said on 21:40/ 1 Jan 98...
>
> I don't see why it should be impossible to make LP ammo into a belt --
> all
> you need are belt links that fit the cartridge cases. Now I grant you
> that
> it'll be very unlikely you'll find those, since I know of no pistol
> (RL or
> SR) that uses belted ammo, but it's nonetheless possible to make such
> a
> belt.

Hi Gurth it's me again, that little ol' gun nut from the states (got 1/2
your kit onhand BTW).

RL did produce a weapon as you describe:

Viper XMP, cal .22mag, nomex non-disintegrating belt, 2600rps rate of
fire
Prototype was produced in July 1978, only 4 other test units were built
between '78 and '85
the weapon has a fin cooled barrel, alloy not known at this time (TS
clearance, developer stole the matieral from NASA), and requires the use
of silver suit guantlets to hold on to the weapon. At max rate of fire
the weapon cleared 200lbm of belted ammo in just over 3sec. Could have
done more, but the nomex melted & the ammo started cooking off before it
entered the breach. Estimates are that the unit is capable of a rof
approaching 4000rps with an appropriate belt composition
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 19:41:10 +0000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is
<jhary@*******.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de>
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Organization: Authors of OL.TXT
Subject: Re: Gurth Con (was:Re: GMing 101)
In-Reply-To: <199712271054.LAA23425@*****.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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On 27 Dec 97 at 11:54, Gurth wrote:
> Leszek Karlik, aka Mike said on 2:47/27 Dec 97...
> > Gurth

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Fri, 2 Jan 1998 13:12:52 -0700

Message no. 4 > "Physically Adept/Mentally Challenged"

LOL! That's a good one! (Hey Barbie, wasn't Furrball a physad? >;-))

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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w---() O- M-- V- PS+ PE- Y+>++ PGP-
t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
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Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:50:32 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: An Explanation or Two (and an apology)(Re: Inherent Magical
In-Reply-To: <80a77c4d.34acea1e@***.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 08:22 AM 1/2/98 EST, you wrote:
>> Uh-huh. Any/all of this information would've helped vastly in answering
>> your question, and yet.. where was it?
>
>Missing to see how you, or others like you, would respond...
>
The next time you're running your own little psych experiment, count me
out. We're not guinea pigs, eh? It's rude.

losthalo@********.comGoFa6)7(Im6TJt)Fe(7P!ShMoB4/19.2Bk!cBkc8MBV6sM3ZG
oPuTeiClbMehC6a23=n4bSSH173g4L??96FmT1Ea4@*********************
4h7sM8zSsYnk6BSMmpFNN0393NRfmSLusOH1Whileyouarelisteningyourwillingat
tentionismakingyoumoreandmoreintothepersonyouwanttobecome
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:53:15 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Bull - in - the - box

On Fri, 2 Jan 1998 12:47:40 -0500 Jaymz <justin@******.NET> writes:

>which brings up an interesting point and a method of getting more than
one
>Bull in the world.

Something tells me that one Bull is quite enough, at least on a permanent
basis:)

>All digital data can be copied.

Bingo!

I wonder... could Bull's personality become the basis for a new type of
(semi) intelligent IC? Tinner could have fun with this:)

--
John Pederson

From:	Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Fri, 2 Jan 1998 15:42:54 -0500

Message no. 5 Actually... the 1st ed Grimoire INCLUDED info on insect spirits, and free
spirits. The game stat info for both was in the same book...

losthalo@********.comGoFa6)7(Im6TJt)Fe(7P!ShMoB4/19.2Bk!cBkc8MBV6sM3ZG
oPuTeiClbMehC6a23=n4bSSH173g4L??96FmT1Ea4@*********************
4h7sM8zSsYnk6BSMmpFNN0393NRfmSLusOH1Whileyouarelisteningyourwillingat
tentionismakingyoumoreandmoreintothepersonyouwanttobecome
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 13:12:52 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Crash of 29
In-Reply-To: <199801021802.LAA09555@******.carl.org> from "Jaymz" at Jan
2,
98 01:00:59 pm
Content-Type: text

Jaymz wrote:
/
/ At 10:49 AM 1/2/98 -0700, David Buehrer wrote:
/ # But, what if there was enough corporate paranoia at the time that
/ # most everyone was encrypting their backups? It'd make sense because
/ # even the most secure computer system doesn't matter if someone walks
/ # in and steals your backups. Even if you've got great physical
/ # security its a small investment to encrypt you backups. And what if
/ # most everyone was using hardware encryption? You only have to put
/ # the encryption hardware in a vault behind several layers of physical
/ # security. If you use encryption software someone can hack it (at
/ # least that's what you think if you're paranoid :) If the virus had
/ # the same capabilities as current Black IC and was able to burn out
/ # hardware then it could have burnt out the encryption chips, making
/ # the backups worthless. The chips could have been replaced but
/ # there'd be no way to match the algorithms.
/
/ great theory
/ BUT
/ most encryption methods used today are at the very least documented.
/ There the public/private key pair thing, so most people use the same
/ method, just different keys.
/ so, if you can recreate the software, which shouldnt be too hard, and hell,
/ I know I'd make backups of my backup recovery software and encryption keys.
/ But, who knows what we will have that far in the future.

Right, if they used software encryption I agree. But I'm talking
about using hardwired encryption systems. Or a 50/50 mix. And
here's why I think it would happen.

Public keys, passwords, etc, are known by people. People can be
turned. So if you use software encryption the opposition (other
corporations) have a chance to get the passwords.

If you use a hardwired encryption device it doesn't matter. The only
way to decrypt the data files is to get that piece of hardware, or to
grunt the decryption.

So, you've got the encryption hardwired into the system and it, and
only it, knows the decryption algorithms for all your data. Along
comes this rogue piece of Black IC and zap, just about every piece of
software and data online is corrupted. You take the system offline
and try to load the backups only to find your encryption device is
fried...

-David
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistake

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Fri, 2 Jan 1998 21:35:57 +0000

Message no. 6 In a message dated 98-01-02 15:35:21 EST, you write:

> The gist of it is that the person was contained in a Cyber Deck !
> It does say in the adventure that it is not standard SR and the
> Players should not be allowed to attempt it, but that is early 2050's
> and besides, from what I understand the campaign involved isn't
> precisely a normal power level one :)
>
There is a way already mentioned in the VR2 whereby Bull could accomplish this
transformation.

Mike

"When all else fails, Hellblast works wonderfully."
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 21:11:15 +0000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <m009ig02@*****.mcmail.com>
From: Andy Gardner <A.Gardner@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Haley's Comet
In-Reply-To: <980102155448_-33224385@******.mx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain;

From:	Stefan <casanova@******.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Fri, 2 Jan 1998 22:44:39 +0000

Message no. 7 I'll be the first person to say this :
That post was cruel. Just enough to let us now that our ideas are
being read (good news), something is on it's way (also good news) and
that we'll just have to wait. Another whole Year as well !!!!!

Oh well, we'll just have to live with it and take it out on our
players :)

Thinking about one person post regarding microbes on Halleys, if they
do reach earth then they will be quite amazing. Afterall, they will
have repeated cooking and freezing, nuking and orbital re-entry.
And if they aren't pissed off about the nuking they'll probably be
pissed off about being torn away from their home.

The ideal opportunity for somebody / somecorp to try and make a good
relationship with something unusual, assuming that they are
intelligent of course. Maybe a Hive mind ?

And of course if the comet does have a gaiasphere it would have been
a secure prison for astral entities you didn't want to or couldn't
kill. Afterall, it's gaiasphere and the earths only overlap every so
often in a very long while. I don;t know if anybody out there has
the know-how to work out when the last time was.
Maybe about 6000 years ?

Just to get some more thoughts flowing.

Fox on the Net
ICQ UIN - 5239612

From:	Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Fri, 2 Jan 1998 17:49:28 -0500

Message no. 8 The much cheaper method of this involves putting a full simsense link
+ transmission rig.
This gives the controller full sensory perception, not just the
vision and hearing that snake eyes allows (IIRC).

Add Encephelon, Commlink for transmit and receive capability.

Now include skillwires.

People with skillwires cannot just switch them off as the LS
skill-twitcher demonstrates. In theory when used the user send the
appropriate parameters to the software (target location etc) and the
software and skillwires then control the actions. Just hook the
cyberware up so that it's not connected to the implantee but to a
receiver set up instead.

Oh yeah, don't forget the encryption link. It'd be really bad if
somebody nicked your drone, drove it home and started asking it
questions :)

I though of this one a while back and almost did it to one of my
players. In the end I didn't because it took away control of his
character from him without any chance of defence. The idea was very
tempting though and the circumstances entirely self inflicted.
Fox on the Net
ICQ UIN - 5239612
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Ja

From:	Stefan <casanova@******.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Sat, 3 Jan 1998 00:10:50 +0000

Message no. 9 That is incorrect. Physical Magicians have full access to astral
perception and projection per the canon rules. Thus, they aren't expanded
physical adepts, per se. They are a jack of all magical trades.

> > Also, you're talking about masking, something that's well within the
> > purview of a full mage.

> Not that kind of masking. The masking adept (to make him worth something)
> can also get kind of invisible in astral space (illusion)....

IMO, illusions don't work in astral space, but you know my opinion on this
already.

> Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther
physad.

Justin :)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 23:03:36 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Deosyne <deosyne@*********.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

----------
> From: Kristling Ravenwing <kravenwing@********.NET>

> I was wondering if you guys would mind me using some of your aliases
and
> shadowtk character names in a non- sr, cyber- punk story?

So what's the story and what's it for?

Shawn
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 18:08:04 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Brian Moore <mooreb@*****.FAC.COM>
Subject: Re: Karma Pool query
In-Reply-To: <199801011258.MAA04857@******.com> from "Andy Gardner" at
Jan 1,
98 01:05:18 pm
Content-Type: text

Andy Gardner <A.Gardner@******.COM> said:
>
> Just a quick opinion poll regarding Karma Pool.
>
> BTB it says that the Karma Pool refreshes when the characters have a
> chance to catch their breath.
> Once this happens, however the GM defines catching their breath, the
> Pool should return to it's full value.
>
> If somebody has used KP for re-rolling a spell success test they get
> those points back.
> What happens if they locked the spell ?

This has come up in the game where I play a mage, and my GM came
up with the following... The KP used for rerolls on locked spells
stays with the spell. The KP comes back if the lock is ever
broken, destroyed, whatever. The same

From:	westln@***.EDU
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Sat, 3 Jan 1998 03:29:46 -0500

Message no. 10 I like some of the ideas being presented, once-in-a-(human)-lifetime event with possible
significant implications, entities, correspondence with past close encounters.

Space is a large place, with plenty of unknown areas to be explored...

Argent

Rabiola@**.netcom.com
Argent - Elven Fixer Extrodinaire
It was hot, the night we burned Chrome...
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 02:22:30 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: westln@***.EDU
Subject: Re: Karma Pool query
In-Reply-To: <9801022308.AA19959@*****.fac.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

For clarification, I'm the Gm Brian is refereing to.
>Brian Moore ssiad:
>>Andy Gardner <A.Gardner@******.COM> said:
>>
>> Just a quick opinion poll regarding Karma Pool.
>>
>> BTB it says that the Karma Pool refreshes when the characters have a
>> chance to catch their breath.
>> Once this happens, however the GM defines catching their breath, the
>> Pool should return to it's full value.
>>
>> If somebody has used KP for re-rolling a spell success test they get
>> those points back.
>> What happens if they locked the spell ?
>
>This has come up in the game where I play a mage, and my GM came
>up with the following... The KP used for rerolls on locked spells
>stays with the spell. The KP comes back if the lock is ever
>broken, destroyed, whatever. The same theory applies to all karma
>uses that relate to long-term things.
>
>I agree with this ruling more than I disagree. For play balance,
>it prevents my Mage from becoming a monster. He could roll 19 dice
>to cast both both the Personal Combat Sense and Armor spells, with
>an extra 8 d

From:	Andy Gardner <A.Gardner@******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Crash of '29
Date:	Sat, 3 Jan 1998 12:19:54 +0000

Message no. 11 Russ Myrick said on 11:41/ 2 Jan 98...

> Makes sense. However, the ceiling limitation (6m) will prove to be a
> problem.

Not more than the walls are, if there are rooms/walls on the other side of
those.

> FRAG ALL! My barrier's hung up on another air vent, or ceiling fan, or
> light, or what ever.
>
> Your shaman needs a new size for that barrier, something under 4m, say
> 3m to be effective. Most structures do not have ceilings over 3m or
> passages over 4m in width. Remember every piece of furniture & any
> downed bodies in the path of the barrier ARE OBSTACLES

I've ruled that it gets hung up on solid objects, such as walls, trees,
cars, and so on. Lighter obstacles, such as typical furniture and dead
bodies, can be pushed

From:	Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Sat, 3 Jan 1998 15:09:24 +0000

Message no. 12 Fox on the Net wrote :

> The much cheaper method of this involves putting a full simsense link
> + transmission rig. This gives the controller full sensory perception, not
just the
> vision and hearing that snake eyes allows (IIRC).

A small question ... a Transmission Rig ?

> Add Encephelon, Commlink for transmit and receive capability.
>
> Now include skillwires.
>
> People with skillwires cannot just switch them off as the LS
> skill-twitcher demonstrates. In theory when used the user send the
> appropriate parameters to the software (target location etc) and the
> software and skillwires then control the actions. Just hook the
> cyberware up so that it's not connected to the implantee but to a
> receiver set up instead.

But for as long as I remember and from what I have read (and am rereading the
section in some of the books about skillwires right now) ... mention that
there is some interface with the person's nervous system at some point or
another ... and this could lead to control problems ... though this is still a
valid alternative ...

> Oh yeah, don't forget the encryption link. It'd be really bad if
> somebody nicked your drone, drove it home and started asking it
> questions :)

Yup ... definitely needs to be put in also ... yep ...

> I though of this one a while back and almost did it to one of my
> players. In the end I didn't because it took away control of his
> character from him without any chance of defence. The idea was very
> tempting though and the circumstances entirely self inflicted.

I've thought of doing this to a pc (with the player's permission) ... but I
have decided instead to fieldtest this thing this Sunday when the group goes
after perhaps the most powerful of the Winternight patrons, Jormangandra ...
okay, they need to get something inside and then once they have the artifact
in question then they will be able to defeat Gandra ...

Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 08:51:29 EST
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: AirWisp <AirWisp@***.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Rigger 2 Adaption and Design queries
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Nightrain wrote :

> I have a question for you all. I was trying to do up a SAAB Dynamit for a
> rigger I was creating, and came up with an interesting problem. To do the
> SAAB up I was running out of space and load, so I decided to up them a bit.
> Only problem was that you can't do that as a customisation, only as a
> Design option. Now I can handle that, you just need to work around it, but
> the thing was though it brought up another question.

I know that a Saab Dynamit is a cool looking car, but have you considered
using a larger chassis vehicle and bigger powerplant to accomplish what you
are looking for ...

> Lets say that I wanted to up the load rating as a design option, before I
> acquired the car. How does this work in the case of the SAAB for example?
> Does the character just change the load rating, re-work out the design
> points and then pay the money getting a slightly chan

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Crash of '29
Date:	Sat, 3 Jan 1998 11:03:10 -0700

Message no. 13 In the US army planned fires were selected by the mannuver
battalion/brigade operations staffs working with the artillery types.
Depending on the unit Company Commanders, Platoon Leaders were often
consulted. In theory if the pre-planning is done right there is no
need for a unscheduled fires because there was already a planned
contingincy mission for that location or possiblity.

>
> Central Front, we expected to rely only on our battalion assets:
> anything bigger would be a bonus.

When I was a part of USAEUR the expectation was that the 155mm
Battery in Direct Support would be available. At least we trained
that way and it was included in defence planning for our positions
along the inter-German Border. It was important to note that
the utilization of this artillery was primarly in the form of
Pre-planned Fires. The bid question as far as we were conserned was
who got the FPF (final protective fire) as that was the one mission,
by doctrine, that could be depended on to be there when you called
for it for as long as you need it (subject to ammo stocks, though
doctrin

From:	Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Sat, 3 Jan 1998 01:21:22 -0500

Message no. 14 --
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 10:53:12 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Bull-In-the-Box
In-Reply-To: <199801031540.IAA08729@******.carl.org> from "Steven A.
Tinner"
at Jan 3, 98 10:42:09 am
Content-Type: text

Steven A. Tinner wrote:
/
/ OK, so we've established that recording ALL 5 senses to a gard drive would
/ consume massive amounts of memory.
/ How about if we delete a few of the senses?
/
/ After all, does Bull really need his senses of smell and taste?
/
/ Hearing - yes, touch - yes, sight - definately.
/
/ But smell and taste are IMO of pretty minor when you consider that Bull's
/ life is on the line!

I'm not sure if this is entirely accurate, but smell is a major
memory trigger. If you don't save his memories of smell he could
lose access to a lot of memories. And aroma triggered memories are
(in my experience) pretty major (the smell of roast beef or a musty
basement for me is almost like being in my grandparent's house, lots
of great memories). Bull's personality might be affected adversly.

-David
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes.
Art is knowing which ones to keep."
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
=========================================================================
Date: Sat

From:	"David R. Lowe" <dlowe@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Sat, 3 Jan 1998 11:56:56 -0800

Message no. 15 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

> > Which sig, he???
> >
> > Thwap thwap thwap thwap thwap thwap thwap thwap thwap
> >
> It should be in this sig.Why not a big thwap.Or a bunch of little zots.

There still isn't a SIG! Try sending a few mails to yourself before
talking about your sig since it is quite apparent that it is not
activated or perhaps there is an invisibility spell on it ... :)

Stefan

------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Frag you and the datastream you came on!" - Sinjin the decker
------------------------------------------------------------------------
... E-Mail .............................. casanova@***.passagen.se ...
... HomePage .............................. http://hsl.home.ml.org ...
... HomePage ................... http://www.bugsoft.hik.se/sl11ls/ ...
... ICQ .................................................. 1403212 ...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:29:26 -0600
Reply-To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Wyrmy <elfman@*****.NET>
Subject: My new website !!!!
MIME-Version: 1.0
C

From:	"David E. Smith" <dave@********.ML.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Sat, 3 Jan 1998 19:35:58 +0000

Message no. 16 On 3 Jan 98 at 12:46, Gurth wrote:

> Ashlocke said on 11:41/ 2 Jan 98...
<snip my mistake>

> My first edition Grimoire discusses insect spirits, though. Pages 102
> through 105 has rules and stats for them, and though the 2nd edition of
> the book goes into more detail, there _are_ insect spirits in the
> original release.

Yup, I goofed. I'd forgotten it was in the original and didn't check
before I posted (which I should have since it's sitting on the shelf
behind me). Chalk it up to my pneumonia.

>
> > That's not really very sound logic, since there are only a couple of
> > cases of an insect spirit "departing" and AFAIK all of them involve
the
> > possession being interrupted before it's complete. There is no case,
> > again AFAIK, of a bug departing after possession.
>
> Same here, plus FASA has repeatedly stated (in adventures) that the PCs
> _cannot_ save the people who are in the process of being transformed into
> insect spirits.

Just to be clear, we're talking about a spirit trying to inhabit someone,
as in the case of the bugs, or Hidden life, or anything similar. "Simple"
possession of the short term variety is another case all together. Which
brings to mind two questions. Could a spirit form insect, particularly a
free insect spirit, possess someone temporarily? And in the case of
"normal" free spirits, would Hidden Life necessarily have the same
destructive effect on a (meta)human? I once wrote a short paper
discussing possible forms of immortality in SR, and pointed out the Hidden
Life power as being one possible avenue. Fiction writers have used the
idea of a spirit sharing it's lifeforce with a human for years, and there
are various legends regarding the same. Assuming it can be done without
destroying the (meta)human consciousness, what happens if the spirit is
later banished or destroyed? What happens if the spirit is hit with a
spell affect, since the two are now linked astrally, would the spell
ground into the (meta)

From:	Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Sat, 3 Jan 1998 16:08:00 -0500

Message no. 17 Exactly. Given a solid wall and the character standing on a surface thick
enough for the barrier not to penetrate it (or one with no projections on
its underside), the barrier can be moved, but otherwise it's stationary.
All IMHO, that is.

> OK, what happens If Im on the subway and I cast the spell- the walls
> have little recesses every 20 meters, andthe tracks have cross ties.
> First immovible obstical it snags on, what hapens? Barrier takes impact
> damege? I take impact damage, being forced to remain atthe geometric
> center of the barrier?

I'd say the barrier "hooks" itself behind the obstruction and drags you
toward the back of the train. Unless you're strong enough to pull it
forward, but I don't think many people are...

> BTW, best use of barrir I've ever seen- we are inside an aquaduct and
> have to disarm a bomb. I say "gee, it would be nice if we were dry."
> Mage helps by stopping water flow with Barrier. We all turn and glare-
> "why didn't you do that 20 minutes ago?".

Hmm... physical barrier spells don't stop gases, but do they stop liquids?
I think they don't, and water will seep through the barrier (though not at
the same rate as a gas could come through it).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Salsa shark
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 14:46:45 -0600
Reply-To:

From:	Damon Harper <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:06:00 PST

Message no. 18 One of the reasons I allow this is becuase I've not had a problem with it
among my current crop of players. They face tough odds and the karma
pool, despite the fact that a number of them have 10+ at this point, does
not always save them. I know they feel challenged. My players value
their character's lives, know they are risking them, and despite the pool
they know they can lose them easily if they're not careful.

Someone was talking about a rigger working on vehicle repairs and using
karma pool. Other than permanently blowing a karma to buy a success, I
wouldn't generally allow this during "down time." If this was during
active time, then I would allow it, with the same rules as I mentioned for
summoning above. ("Down Time" in my game is when they are taking time
off, relax

From:	James Paul Morgan <jpmorgan@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Sat, 3 Jan 1998 14:17:37 -0700

Message no. 19 As for refreshing, I refresh the karma pool when they have time to relax
after something significant occurrs. (Sorry to keep using such general
terms.) They may do days or weeks worth of legwork, having plenty of time
to rest and "catch their breath", but not refresh their pools. On the
other hand, a series of hit, rest, hit, rest, hit, rest in a daily cycle
would refersh every rest, assuming the hit was something significant. If
it made them sweat or made them think, it was significant. It has to be
dangerous, or at least perceived to be.

I will sometimes refresh some or all of the pool during a "small" rest
between major scenes, just because I know the team is going to need it.

I should comment that I run a fairly "heroic" and movie-like game where
the runners are larger than life and so can pull off feats "normal" people
can. This is the karma pool. This allows them to get a lot more
successes than statistics would say.... or to buy extra dice so they can
survive damage that would kill or maim a normal person. Of course,
sometimes the bad guys have karma pools too... something my players have
learned to hate.

See ya around the Mulberry bush.

--James

:)
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 21:31:11 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: Another barriers question (not related to the psychokinetic
In-Reply-To: <199801031806.LAA10009@******.carl.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

David Buehrer said on 11:06/ 3 Jan 98...

> / The barrier would be locked in place in the situation I sketched above,
> / but if the horizontal wall isn't there, it could move up and down. I feel
> / the barrier should move with the spell lock.
>
> How come the wall locks the barrier in place but the ground doesn't?

Because I was assuming the caster was standing on solid ground, without
rooms or other empty spaces underneath. If the wall makes a hole in the
barrier, then so does the earth -- except the hole made by the earth
takes away 50% of the barrier's total surface area.

If you're standing in a building, or even if there's a sewer pipe
underneath you, the floor could lock the barrier just as easily as wals
can.

BTW, technically this interpretation would make it difficult or impossible
to use a barrier on anything but perfectly smooth ground, but I
disregard minor imperfections -- only larger things like walls, cars, and
so on affect it.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Salsa shark
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Sun, 4 Jan 1998 11:44:10 +0000

Message no. 20 And also makes certain types of protection largely irrelevant, or at least
not worth the trouble any longer. It's like: "barriers get in the way too
much, I want characters in my game to get out there and duke it out." I'm
not trying to be sarcastic, but what comes next? More intelligent,
'hardened' barriers? I don't want to see this.

And there are other ways, already available, to reduce barriers'
efffectiveness without building new methods. Send spirits to harrass the
barrier; attack with mundane weapons that the astral barrier waves hello as
they pass by; find a means to pollute or remove the air the mage is
breathing; lure him into an ambush; try some of the dirty tricks out've the
CP main rulebook :) ; exploit weaknesses you know he has (kidnap his
girlfriend...); call in some favors and gang-rush him with a variety of
spells until his defense falls; design a barrier-targeted spell :); call in
air support?; trap him there and call the Star; get a sample for doing
ritual sorcery, and invite a group of friends to assist... run away, then
hire a contract on the fragger. =)

>Perhaps some balance to this option is that it only works against magical
>barriers and the like ... slipping in through the conduit that is the
lifelink
>of the spell from the astral ...

Originally you listed it as also cutting the effectiveness of Shielding.
Now, Shielding came about as a way of increasing one's resistance to spells
(and perhaps more importantly, one's teammates', who may lack the
attributes to take certain magical attacks). It's supposed to be an
impressive ability, one only Initiates know. If you allow things that
bypass that, it becomes just another step in the arms race, and a lot less
interesting.

And letting it cut through Wards like a hot knife through butter also
sounds like a bad thing.

>"When all else fails, Hellblast will do just finely."

Nah, when all else has failed... Toxic Wave (calling it by its proper name...
Damn these new-fangled revisionist titles anyhow). Kill everything, and
eat a nice, big ol' crater in the ground to boot.

losthalo@********.comGoFa6)7(Im6TJt)Fe(7P!ShMoB4/19.2Bk!c

From:	s c rose <scrose@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Sun, 4 Jan 1998 05:58:43 -0600

Message no. 21 Gurth wrote:

> I've ruled that it gets hung up on solid objects, such as walls,
> trees,
> cars, and so on. Lighter obstacles, such as typical furniture and dead
>
> bodies, can be pushed out of the way.

That stuff piles up quick, and what about the stuff in the cubies. I've
rewired/remodeled a couple of office complexes recently, the dividers in
those cubicle farms are a fragging BIG pain t

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Sun, 4 Jan 1998 13:42:45 +0100

Message no. 22 And verily, did David R. Lowe hastily scribble thusly...
|
|<snip crash stuff>
|
|Most of the theories I've seen about the Crash have involved corrupted
|data. What if it was the OS itself that caused the problem? Either a
|deliberate or accidental flaw in the dominant operating system that
|inherently corrupted all data it was working with?
|
|Now I'm not trying to knock any particular system,

No? You had a perfectly good opportunity to do a win95 bash and you missed
it?

:)

I'm just trying to put
|it in real world terms. What if, tomorrow, all machines using Windows
|software in all its insepid forms irrevocably crashed? The entire world is
|not on Windows machines, but I would wager 90% of world wide business would
|come to a halt. Think what that would do to the economy.

Oh... You did... Hehe...

|Just a few thoughts, and please, don't turn this into an OS war.

Awwww. Spoilsport...
:)

I just
|use

From:	Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Sun, 4 Jan 1998 20:29:51 +0000

Message no. 23 Actually, there's nothing to say that a dead mage can't become a spirit,
if he or she can find a way to halt the Essence loss after their body
dies. It's just finding the way that's the trick. =)

>>When "stealthing" past the Ward, the test is unopposed, meaning one
success
>>theoretically allows the magician through. By connecting the Ward's
energies
>>to some that is "proactive", such as a magician or a guardian being
>>(elemental, spirit, ick---watcher) allows for the test to become a
resisted
>>one, target number of course being the "masked" individual's current
Astral
>>Signature.
>
>This is already handled in Awakenings. (See "Alarm Wards" for an
>example of a "CCSS" ward.)

Regardless of whether it's handled or not, it should probably be
reversed. AFAIK, no one has stated that this would be anything but a
perceptive change. Therefore, why would an unintelligent entity, such as
a ward, be fooled by something that affects perception. It doesn't really
care what you are or who you are, if you're trying to get through you
must be a threat. OTOH, a ward with an intelligence behind it could be
fooled, and would therefore become an opposed test. Not only does this
follow with internal logic - a ward would be much like an astral "camera"
and the ability, which in order to work on the astral would have to be a
mana-based one, wouldn't fool the ward as simple invisibility doesn't
fool a camera. Therefore, it would make sense. It also has the added
bonus of making existing wards quite formidable without alteration. =)

I'll also throw out a thought on HOW "masking" should be applied. I know
a great deal of you still are discussing whether or not it SHOULD be
applied, but this may make life a little simpler by looking at it from a
balance point. What I would recommend is that for the opposed test, you
w

From:	"David R. Lowe" <dlowe@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Sun, 4 Jan 1998 12:32:01 -0800

Message no. 24 Depends how you define "sniping"...

>Snipers are about stealth and taking
>out a target at range and getting out no one the wiser.

Or about one man with a rifle pinning down a rifle platoon, that's now
leaderless and out of comms because he killed the OC and the signaller.
The platoon know there's a sniper, but they don't know where he is, and
if they continue the advance he'll kill more of them. Meanwhile, the
sniper's partner is calling in mortar fire on the immobilised troops.

There are many missions that fit the "sniper" designation.

>In some cases at
>ranges of 2 km or more.

In very few cases... other than a lucky shot by Hathcock with an M2
(when an enemy

From:	"David R. Lowe" <dlowe@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Sun, 4 Jan 1998 12:39:07 -0800

Message no. 25 Given that Hathcock used to snipe with a M2HB heavy machine gun, I'd say
that the definition's more flexible than you seem to believe.

BTW, an excellent book for many aspects of Shadowrun is David Mason's
"Shadow over Babylon". It relates to sniping in that the objective is to
place a sniper 1,200 metres from his target, and have him make a one
shot kill of that target. The operation to do so is superbly written,
and the difficulties involved in rifle shooting at such range is also
covered very well.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 17:46:14 +0000
Reply-To: Shadowrun

From:	William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:01:51 +0100

Message no. 26 > > Well, assuming you do fire from 2km away, it's not like the sound will
> > take forever to arrive, I don't want to do the math on it, but I imagine
> > no more than 2 seconds after the bullet hits.
>
> 6 seconds more like it. Hardly any math involved: speed of sound is about
> 340 m/s, 2000 m / 340 m/s = 5.88 s.

Using thermographic scoper super powered rifles today, sniping is
becoming fairly scary. When someone can see you through a wall, from
1 km+, and put a bullet through both the wall and you, it is hard
to feel safe. (In Norway we mostly planned in case of a russian
invasion, and their military is strongly based on their officers,
making them extremely valuable targets. Thus, snipers would be very
useful.). The capability to shoot and then get out of sight before
the bullet hits, is also fairly useful, from a survivability point of
view. How to handle that in SR, though? Most weapons are instant hit.
(I'd say use RP, but that's me.).

--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 07:42:47 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Carsten Gehling <alvion@****.UNI2.DK>
Subject: Year of Earthdawn
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

This maybe a little Off-topic, but since Earthdawn and Shadowrun are =
connected:

When in the world-history is Earthdawn set? Around 2000 B.C. ? Or when? =
My reason for asking is I have this crazy idea about sending my dear =
shadowrunners on a little timetrip, starting at Stonehenge and ending in =
Barsaive...

- Carsten

www: http://inet.uni2.dk/home/alvion
e-mail: alvion@******.dk
alvion@****.uni2.dk
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 10:41:26 +0000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <runefo@***.uio.no>
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Organization: The University of Oslo
Subject: Re: Smart Materials and Vehicles
In-Reply-To: <34AE8CAF.563AAB0E@****.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

> Also of interest to you would be "robo-tuna", which was a
> > fairly long Sci-am article about fish locomotion and robotic water
> > probes (read "drone").
>
> Yeah intersting and also fairly large prehaps a drone shaped like
> dolphin they eat lots of fish. Are very tought fighters, sharks don't
> even mess with them...

Rather a drone shaped like a shark then. :)

Dolphin's protection is in numbers - a lone dolphin isn't exactly
dangerous. So unless you plan to send out a school of drones, stick
to real nasties.

Occassionally, leopards attack porcupines. They do so when they are
very hungry, usually. They will most probably kill and eat the
porcupine, but not unusually dies within a few weeks from the spikes
and infected wounds. In other words - in nature, you either kill your
prey without getting hurt, or you don't attack it unless you have
to. That's why appearing a little dangerous is a good thing, even if
you are obviously not able to *win* the fight. Can apply
elsewhere, too, eh?

Also, being poisonous to eat must be the lamest protection ever.
("Ha! He killed me, but he'll die from eating me! HAH! .. um wait I'm
dead."). From a species point of view it's okay, of course, but as an
individual, it sucks. :)

--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost

From:	The Bookworm <Thomas.M.Price@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Crash of '29
Date:	Mon, 5 Jan 1998 10:22:16 -0600

Message no. 27 Driving a vehicle with only a datajack is not what it means ... what it means,
IMHO, is that the person is receiving additional information that they did not
have when not jacked in, but not the same level of information as that
received by a rigger and their VCR ... and the person still gets to have all
sorts of fun playing with the steering wheel ...

Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 08:36:28 EST
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: AirWisp <AirWisp@***.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Year of Earthdawn
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 98-01-05 04:50:53 EST, you write:

> This maybe a little Off-topic, but since Earthdawn and Shadowrun are
connected:
>
>
> When in the world-history is Earthdawn set? Around 2000 B.C. ? Or when? My
> reason for asking is I have this crazy idea about sending my dear
> shadowrunners on a little timetrip, starting at Stonehenge and ending in
> Barsaive...

Hope to God the Horro don't get to them first, as they may be in for a big
surprise, and I do mean both sides of the board ... it also leaves open a
dimensional rift in time through which some of the Enemy may be able to jump
through to this 'time' in SR ...

Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 08:38:00 EST
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: AirWisp <AirWisp@***.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Halley's Comet (OT)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 98-01-05 07:27:51 EST, you write:

> >What Do you mean? I have every barrier from stop spirit,to stop
> >shapeshifter, to stop water.
>
> And since you have all tho

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Crash of '29
Date:	Mon, 5 Jan 1998 11:06:18 -0700

Message no. 28 AAAA but it goes even farther back. So ya the distributer has inventory
problems but you can do a paper inventory if you have to just will take a
good long time to set it up. But where does the distributer get the
hardware? From the manufactuerer who has the same sort of inventory
problems along with the head ache of actualy making the product. How do
you make chips when your Computer Controlled equiptment just got its brain
lobotimized? Anything even aproching the size and complexity of IC chips
will need a good computer running the assembly line. I mean for a
bootstrap you might have to go back to handrapped breadboard:). Makes the
change over to optical based computers a lot more beleavable. If you have
to start from scratch anyway and dont have to wory about backwards
compatabilty because all the old hardware got fried it seems like the
perfect chance to change Tech.

Thomas Price
aka The Bookworm
thomas.m.price@*******.edu
tmprice@***********.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 16:24:17 +0000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOW

From:	George H Metz <wolfstar@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Wed, 7 Jan 1998 11:47:04 -0500

Message no. 29 Cetacean Drive (Gasoline or Diesel Engine Category)(Body 4 limit at this time)
Speed Rating
Starting : Pilot
Maximum : Pilot x 1.5
Acceleration Rating
Starting : 1
Maximum : 1
Load Rating
Starting : 200 (Gasoline) / 300 (Diesel)
Maximum : 800 (Gasoline) / 1800 (Diesel)
Signature : 7
Economy Rating
Starting : 1 km / liter
Ending : 3.5 km / liter
Fuel Size (Starting) : 300 liters
Design Point Cost : 75
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:17:24 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Graves, Durand E. (Temporary at ALCOA)"
<Durand.Graves@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Smart Materials and Vehicles

Mike, I may have an answer to your question about flexible, metal. Email
me at work and I'll attempt to explain. Gron has been spending his time
and Karma to research and

From:	George H Metz <wolfstar@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Wed, 7 Jan 1998 12:02:23 -0500

Message no. 30 Agreed, although I see nothing wrong with introducing weapons that use
damage codes besides 6L, 9M, 6M/7M, etc. (each of which could cover
numerous actual calibres). For example, why not a new classification of
pistol-- the "medium pistol"-- that uses the same ammo used in current SR
SMGs (6M/7M). This only makes sense, since 6L doesn't really cover
calibres like the 9mmP or .45 ACP-- which aren't considered heavy pistol
cartridges and are available in modern day SMGs (hell, a few SMGs have even
been chambered for the powerful 10mm cartridge-- a definitive heavy pistol
cartridge).

I'm not really asking for accurate weapon statistics for Shadowrun.
Alternatives other than 6L light pistols and 9M heavy pistols would be nice
so that there are a few more choices available. Of course, light pistols
have been unofficially up'd to 6M/7M by many referees as a popular house
rule to make these weapons a bit more realistic, but it isn't an *official*
Shadowrun ruling-- yet.

> Yes they are all diffent but knowing about bullets does not make you a
> better role player or even enhance the game play if anything it
> complicates it to a less than nessary degree. I might lack some degree
> of realism but the slowing of game play is not worth the cost of
> realism. One of the most wonderfully detailed systems every created was
> Aftermath thing is you wanted to fire a mortar or other indirect fire
> weapon you had to actually learn how it was done very accurate and
> highly realistic but not really something you need to be able to play a
> game...

I disagree to a certain degree, and here's why. Games that are vague when
it comes to things like automobiles and firearms are really only useful for
entertainment-- which is fine. But they can be difficult for gamers that
actually know something about automobiles and/or firearms and which expect
their knowledge to be productive to the situation. When the referee tells
them otherwise (eg: "a Saab Dynamit can too accelerate from 0-100 km/h in
less than two seconds on Sears tires") they quickly begin to lose faith in
t

From:	Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Wed, 7 Jan 1998 13:22:43 -0500

Message no. 31 Very true, overall a +1 does work better, just to stop runaway numbers
from prompting characters to boost their close-combat skills through the
roof.

--
Wolfstar - wolfstar@****.com - Home Page Under Construction!

Some people simply are a waste of space on the buttocks of humanity.
-- Avenger

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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 06:10:53 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: George H Metz <wolfstar@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Melee Combat Revisited

On Fri, 2 Jan 1998 00:52:19 +0000 "Paul J. Adam"
<shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK> writes:

>> Not quite. This dates back to a method he mentioned, based on unarmed
>>combat. What he was basically saying is that there's no way someone
with
>>an unarmed combat skill of 4 or 5 with Wired-3 plus a few other speed
>>goodies should be losing to a stock human martial arts master with an
>>unarmed combat of 10 or 12.
>
>Leaping in with both feet, I'd point out that wired reflexes are wired
>_reflexes_.

<Snipping absolutely correct but unnecessary stuff>

Oh, believe me Paul, I heartily agree with you, and realize that this is
effectively chip-truth. However, too many people out there either don't
understand martial arts at all, or have not studied it enough to realize
that speed can be a disadvantage. Personally, I'm tackling the problem as
theoretical stuff, but I'd never implement it.

--
Wolfstar - wolfstar@****.com - Home Page Under Construction!

Some people simply are a waste of space on the buttocks of humanity.
-- Avenger

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=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 12:27:04 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: George H Metz <wolfstar@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Ha

From:	Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Wed, 7 Jan 1998 19:44:42 +0000

Message no. 32 Regards
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 12:57:11 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Signal to Noise
In-Reply-To: <199801071827.TAA10018@*****.xs4all.nl>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 19:28 07/01/98 +0100, you wrote:

>How about this: how _do_ people post on Shadowland? We often refer to
>the comments in sourcebooks as "decker comments" but many of the posts
>are made by others, so it must be possible to log on using a normal
>computer. Now finding Shadowland is an Etiquette (Matrix) test and
>attempts seem very often to be restricted to decker PCs, but what about
>others?

I've been working on re-writing the Shadowland bit of the Companion,
because frankly, I think it sucks. In my mind, Shadowland is *gasp -- bad
word time* "Elite" ;)
But with the way FASA has it set up, alot of twonks seem to spend time on
Shadowland.. my solution is likely going to be a two-tiered access system.

I've even almost come up with a plausable reason for the (>)'s instead of
the >>>>>[Thingies]<<<<< :)

Now, I just need to get back to writing this book :)

-Adam

-
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ AdamJ@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
The Shadowrun Archive Co-Maintainer: http://www.interware.it/shadowrun

From:	Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Wed, 7 Jan 1998 20:11:39 -0500

Message no. 33 > What are the other two? Are they the Atlantean Foundation and Draco.
> Foundation?

IMO the Draco Foundation wields the same amount of power as a
MegaCorp, but is less vulnerable as it is a less known quantity and
nobody knows what their security is like. Apart from bequests nobody
is quite sure what it specialises in either.

> _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ levbar@******.org
> _/_/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ -Who is my saviour now..
> _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/
> _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/
> _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/
>
> _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/
> _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/
> _/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
> _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/
> _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
> _/_/_/
> _/ -Levi Barczy

And I'll bite the bait, what are the letters in your sig-file ?
I can't make them out on my browser.

Fox on the Net
ICQ UIN - 5239612
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 15:55:17 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.N

From:	Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:56:12 -0500

Message no. 34 On Wed, Jan 07, 1998 at 07:44:42PM +0000, Avenger wrote:
> In article <19980107132243.45440@****.fsu.edu>, Lehlan Decker
> <decker@****.FSU.EDU> waffled & burbled about Crash of 29
> <snippy>
> >I've seen this one as well. Actually since my players have
> >gone from "combat monsters" to more stealth oriented characters,
> >they have use similiar tactics to break into buildings, and acquire
> >various items. (Water/Electricity, electronic parts etc).
> >Whats the old saying, as long as you look like you belong, noone
> >will most likely stop you. (Just in case you do belong).
>
> My players have a very simple philosophy. If you carry a clipboard and
> wear a name tag, you _look_ official, and nobody will question you -
> until you get to really sensitive areas.
>
> Looking at the number of people who walk into Hospitals, Police
> Stations, Companies and other such areas, and promtply walk out with a
> few interesting items in their deep pockets/toolboxes, I can believe it.
>
> Our local college lost a number of computers and peripherals, memory,
> hard drives and a few other things because of exactly such a ploy. The
> technician was too stupid to check. Someone walked in, ticked off items
> on a clipboard, stuck them into a small Honda van and drove off. It was
> two days before someone said "Where has XXX gone?"
>
This is very true. And when you factor in alittle bit of research
a masking spell, and other magics/tech, many runs can be accomplished
without firing a shot. (I've actually given extra points, for a run,
where no one ever fired a gun or offensive spell, I was impressed,
hasn't happened since,
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Some people are alive, only because its illegal to kill them.

From:	James Paul Morgan <jpmorgan@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:47:49 -0700

Message no. 35 On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, Avenger wrote:

> Our local college lost a number of computers and peripherals, memory,
> hard drives and a few other things because of exactly such a ploy. The
> technician was too stupid to check. Someone walked in, ticked off items
> on a clipboard, stuck them into a small Honda van and drove off. It was
> two days before someone said "Where has XXX gone?"
>

I'm an intern for the Department of Labor here in New Mexico. I'm running
around the building in jeans, a pony tail, and "decent" pants. No ID. No
clipboard. Just some disks. When we ran an inventory a while back, I had
to run a software inventory program in every PC in this and several other
buildings. Of all those hundreds of computers, only ONE person questioned
who I was and asked to see my security badge. I hadn't been here long and
so only a few people knew who I was.

It's VERY true that if you look like you're here, especially if you spout
techno-babble and drop someone high up's name, people will let you do
whatever you want, just about.

Scary.

See ya around the Mulberry bush.

--James

:)

From:	"David R. Lowe" <dlowe@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Thu, 8 Jan 1998 09:56:08 -0800

Message no. 36 At 10:47 AM 1/8/98, James Paul Morgan wrote:

>It's VERY true that if you look like you're here, especially if you spout
>techno-babble and drop someone high up's name, people will let you do
>whatever you want, just about.

'nother trick that is overlooked in the fifth world: The Color Copier.

They are phenominal today, I can't imagine how much better they can get in
60+ years.

A photographer buddy of mine shot the NBA finals last year and there was a
big hoopla because somebody swiped a press pass and made color copies of
it. Voila! Everybody's in.

It probably won't work to copy scanning bars and other electronic goodies,
but creating a quick and good forgery of an I.D. tag goes a long way
towards establishing credibility.

D.

David R. Lowe (dlowe@*********.com)
Photography/Design

Hey, there's a URL in my sig file now!
Check it out at: www.lowephoto.com.

--
GC3.1 GCA$ d- s: a- C++++ U P L E? W+ N++ o K? w-- O- M++$ V--
PS++ PE Y+ PGP- t 5 X+ R+++$ tv- b++ DI++ D--- G++ e++ h--- r++ u+
--

From:	James Paul Morgan <jpmorgan@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Thu, 8 Jan 1998 11:03:57 -0700

Message no. 37 On Thu, 8 Jan 1998, David R. Lowe wrote:

> 'nother trick that is overlooked in the fifth world: The Color Copier.
>
> They are phenominal today, I can't imagine how much better they can get in
> 60+ years.
>
> [SNIP]
>
> It probably won't work to copy scanning bars and other electronic goodies,
> but creating a quick and good forgery of an I.D. tag goes a long way
> towards establishing credibility.
>

Actually, it depends on the "scanning bar". You can copy the "UPC"
type
bars fairly easily. In fact, you can get software to print out such
patterns so you can tag stuff. (The software and reader are very
expensive. We looked into using bar codes at a dry cleaners I worked at.)

Magnetic strips require a writer. However, you can purchase those. I
don't know costs, but I'm sure they are not cheap.

To me, I don't see using "swipe" cards in 2058, and I don't in my world.
I use ones like we use here at DOL. They have circuitry in them that the
door sensor reads when you touch the ID to a panel. It knows who you are
and either lets you in or refuses to open the door, depending on your
clearance. Considering that many SR fiction books have doors open based
on sensors that see you coming, I figure it's going to be similar
technology. (Like those door-sensors at stores to catch shoplifters, but
far more advanced.)

Besides, those stupid magnetic strips wear out if you use them too much.

Thinking about it.... for temporary passes like the press passes at
sporting events, particularly if the item is only used a limited number of
times, the magnetic strips would be much cheaper than buying badges you're
not likely to get back.

See ya around the Mulberry bush.

--James

:)

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Thu, 8 Jan 1998 18:07:32 +0000

Message no. 38 And verily, did David R. Lowe hastily scribble thusly...
|It probably won't work to copy scanning bars and other electronic goodies,
|but creating a quick and good forgery of an I.D. tag goes a long way
|towards establishing credibility.

I can't see any problem with copying bar codes.
Holograms on cards are a different matter though...

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

From:	George H Metz <wolfstar@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Wed, 7 Jan 1998 13:59:47 -0500

Message no. 39 On Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:01:51 +0100 William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
writes:

<Snip, snip!>
>IMO, the virus manifested after some months, perhaps years. During the
>first period, it inscribed itself in the data sources manipulated. So,
when
>the virus was finally beaten by the ECHO team, corporate scientists
tried
>to recover the data. Because they weren't dumb, they used computers that
>weren't connected to the net (I don't we could say matrix at this time)
and
>discovered no problem because the virus was dormant. When they recovered
>all the data, say some months later, the virus activated again finishing
to
>trash and taint the different informations. After this event,
corporations
>decided to destroy all their old data, to prevent the virus from coming
back.

You people seem to be forgetting a few things.
1)In all likelihood, the virus was semi-sentient(why else would most of
Echo Mirage, cream of the hacker crop, die trying to defeat it?), if not
a living(and possibly breathing) entity? Maybe even the Deep Resonance?

2) Echo Mirage DEFEATED the virus. They did NOT destroy it. The virus is
probably still lurking out there in some deep dark corner of the matrix,
waiting to finish its job, whatever that was.

3)Some systems were relatively unaffected by the virus. Why?

Just some food for thought. The Virus, IMHO, is anything but a set of
code. The Virus is computer evolution.

--
Wolfstar - wolfstar@****.com - Home Page Under Construction!

Some people simply are a waste of space on the buttocks of humanity.
-- Avenger

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From:	Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Fri, 9 Jan 1998 09:40:45 -0500

Message no. 40 On Wed, Jan 07, 1998 at 01:59:47PM -0500, George H Metz wrote:
> On Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:01:51 +0100 William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
> writes:
>
> <Snip, snip!>
> >IMO, the virus manifested after some months, perhaps years. During the
> >first period, it inscribed itself in the data sources manipulated. So,
> when
> >the virus was finally beaten by the ECHO team, corporate scientists
> tried
> >to recover the data. Because they weren't dumb, they used computers that
> >weren't connected to the net (I don't we could say matrix at this time)
> and
> >discovered no problem because the virus was dormant. When they recovered
> >all the data, say some months later, the virus activated again finishing
> to
> >trash and taint the different informations. After this event,
> corporations
> >decided to destroy all their old data, to prevent the virus from coming
> back.
>
> You people seem to be forgetting a few things.
> 1)In all likelihood, the virus was semi-sentient(why else would most of
> Echo Mirage, cream of the hacker crop, die trying to defeat it?), if not
> a living(and possibly breathing) entity? Maybe even the Deep Resonance?
>

Viruses today aren't "alive",and yet I've seen some that will
try to disable virus scanners and other such things they "know"
will try to hurt them.
Perhaps the Virus is somehow linked to the Deep Resonance, only
time will tell, and Fasa most likely will leave it up to us.

> 2) Echo Mirage DEFEATED the virus. They did NOT destroy it. The virus is
> probably still lurking out there in some deep dark corner of the matrix,
> waiting to finish its job, whatever that was.
>
See 1. The virus may still exist somewhere (hell several corps
may have samples, since black IC derived from it).

> 3)Some systems were relatively unaffected by the virus. Why?
>
Depends on how you mean unaffected. If your talking about Shadowland
comments from the Denver book, several boards avoided it, by seeing
their outer SANS crash, and shutting themselves down. Even then
FJ makes a comment, they had problems for awhile afterwards.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Some people are alive, only because its illegal to kill them.

From:	William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Fri, 9 Jan 1998 15:59:50 +0100

Message no. 41 >See 1. The virus may still exist somewhere (hell several corps
>may have samples, since black IC derived from it).

Where is it stated if it is ?

>> 3)Some systems were relatively unaffected by the virus. Why?
>>
>Depends on how you mean unaffected. If your talking about Shadowland
>comments from the Denver book, several boards avoided it, by seeing
>their outer SANS crash, and shutting themselves down. Even then
>FJ makes a comment, they had problems for awhile afterwards.

I don't have the denver sourcebook but I know ('cause I have it :) that
France was unaffected by the virus. The main reason is that it deconnected
physically from the rest of the matrix.
Even so, I don't think they were totally unaffected. Some samples (from
preactivation of the virus) may have travelled past the barrier. I guess
some people wanted a safe place from the virus. France has special
relations with Fushi and Renraku...

Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "Never trust an elf"

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Fri, 9 Jan 1998 08:05:49 -0700

Message no. 42 Lehlan Decker wrote:
/
/ Viruses today aren't "alive",and yet I've seen some that will
/ try to disable virus scanners and other such things they "know"
/ will try to hurt them.
/ Perhaps the Virus is somehow linked to the Deep Resonance, only
/ time will tell, and Fasa most likely will leave it up to us.

"Alive" is pretty hard to define. If the virus acts and reacts like a
living thing it doesn't matter whether it' "alive" or not. It's still a
nasty mother.

Anyway, one of the things that's scary is that IC of today is based
on that virus. That might mean that IC is a pale replica of the
virus of 29. The virus of 29 might have been nastier than any IC of
2058. And that beg's the question, just what the hell *was* that
virus?

Just my two cents :)

-David
--
"All glory comes from daring to begin." - Shakespeare
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Fri, 9 Jan 1998 08:08:12 -0700

Message no. 43 William Gallas wrote:
/
/ I don't have the denver sourcebook but I know ('cause I have it :) that
/ France was unaffected by the virus. The main reason is that it deconnected
/ physically from the rest of the matrix.

They may not have been directly affected, but when the international
economy went belly up they were as screwed as everybody else.

-David
--
"All glory comes from daring to begin." - Shakespeare
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

From:	Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:51:11 -0500

Message no. 44 On Fri, Jan 09, 1998 at 03:59:50PM +0100, William Gallas wrote:
> >See 1. The virus may still exist somewhere (hell several corps
> >may have samples, since black IC derived from it).
>
> Where is it stated if it is ?
>
That one I'll have to check, although its been mentioned in
several places. (The virus produced lethal feedback, and the corps
thought it was the only way to protect their data from the
"deckers". Check SR history, as well as The Denver book.

> >> 3)Some systems were relatively unaffected by the virus. Why?
> >>
> >Depends on how you mean unaffected. If your talking about Shadowland
> >comments from the Denver book, several boards avoided it, by seeing
> >their outer SANS crash, and shutting themselves down. Even then
> >FJ makes a comment, they had problems for awhile afterwards.
>
> I don't have the denver sourcebook but I know ('cause I have it :) that
> France was unaffected by the virus. The main reason is that it deconnected
> physically from the rest of the matrix.
> Even so, I don't think they were totally unaffected. Some samples (from
> preactivation of the virus) may have travelled past the barrier. I guess
> some people wanted a safe place from the virus. France has special
> relations with Fushi and Renraku...
>
>
I've never seen the Frence book, and I'm not sure if it would
count as FASA "cannon" or not. But since this is how Shadowland etc
survived as well as they did, its certaintly feasible.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Some people are alive, only because its illegal to kill them.

From:	Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:57:20 -0500

Message no. 45 On Fri, Jan 09, 1998 at 08:05:49AM -0700, David Buehrer wrote:
> Lehlan Decker wrote:
> /
> / Viruses today aren't "alive",and yet I've seen some that will
> / try to disable virus scanners and other such things they "know"
> / will try to hurt them.
> / Perhaps the Virus is somehow linked to the Deep Resonance, only
> / time will tell, and Fasa most likely will leave it up to us.
>
> "Alive" is pretty hard to define. If the virus acts and reacts like a
> living thing it doesn't matter whether it' "alive" or not. It's still a
> nasty mother.
>
> Anyway, one of the things that's scary is that IC of today is based
> on that virus. That might mean that IC is a pale replica of the
> virus of 29. The virus of 29 might have been nastier than any IC of
> 2058. And that beg's the question, just what the hell *was* that
> virus?
>
Heh..I haven't had to figure it out. I haven't had anything
but an NPC decker in my campaign for a bit.
Perhaps a Core Wars weapons, perhaps the matrix "awakening".
It's much more fun to never answer, and just use it as a plot
hook. We can't know everything, where's the fun in that. :)

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Some people are alive, only because its illegal to kill them.

From:	Paolo Marcucci <paolo@*********.IT>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Fri, 9 Jan 1998 17:41:02 +0100

Message no. 46 At 10:51 09/01/98 -0500, Lehlan Decker said:
>I've never seen the Frence book, and I'm not sure if it would
>count as FASA "cannon" or not. But since this is how Shadowland etc
>survived as well as they did, its certaintly feasible.

Only that this way France still has much of its old technology documents
available. The Crash of 29 is a FASA plot device for justifying the tech
level in 205x. If a country (already among the more advanced in the world)
didn't suffer from this kind of attack, then their science and technology
should be still intact.

This means France can easily rule the world in 2058 (magic apart). Keep in
mind that corp wars were fougth (cfr. Shadowplay) over lost tech items...

If it isn't so in the France sourcebook (that i don't have), which is the
explanation?
____________________________________________________________
Paolo Marcucci paolo@*********.it
InterWare Service Provider Trieste, Italy
http://www.interware.it/ Tel. +39-40-360630

From:	Paolo Marcucci <paolo@*********.IT>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Fri, 9 Jan 1998 17:36:16 +0100

Message no. 47 At 10:57 09/01/98 -0500, Lehlan Decker said:
>On Fri, Jan 09, 1998 at 08:05:49AM -0700, David Buehrer wrote:
>> Anyway, one of the things that's scary is that IC of today is based
>> on that virus. That might mean that IC is a pale replica of the
>> virus of 29. The virus of 29 might have been nastier than any IC of
>> 2058. And that beg's the question, just what the hell *was* that
>> virus?
>>
>Heh..I haven't had to figure it out. I haven't had anything
>but an NPC decker in my campaign for a bit.
>Perhaps a Core Wars weapons, perhaps the matrix "awakening".
>It's much more fun to never answer, and just use it as a plot
>hook. We can't know everything, where's the fun in that. :)

Maybe things in the matrix works in different ways.... maybe the Virus is
an IC from the future... maybe time can be warped. Who knows what lurks in
the deep of the matrix, awaiting for a hapless decker?

/me politely ask for some resident space under Gurth's stairs :)
____________________________________________________________
Paolo Marcucci paolo@*********.it
InterWare Service Provider Trieste, Italy
http://www.interware.it/ Tel. +39-40-360630

From:	Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Fri, 9 Jan 1998 11:55:41 -0500

Message no. 48 On Fri, Jan 09, 1998 at 05:36:16PM +0100, Paolo Marcucci wrote:
> At 10:57 09/01/98 -0500, Lehlan Decker said:
> >On Fri, Jan 09, 1998 at 08:05:49AM -0700, David Buehrer wrote:
> >> Anyway, one of the things that's scary is that IC of today is based
> >> on that virus. That might mean that IC is a pale replica of the
> >> virus of 29. The virus of 29 might have been nastier than any IC of
> >> 2058. And that beg's the question, just what the hell *was* that
> >> virus?
> >>
> >Heh..I haven't had to figure it out. I haven't had anything
> >but an NPC decker in my campaign for a bit.
> >Perhaps a Core Wars weapons, perhaps the matrix "awakening".
> >It's much more fun to never answer, and just use it as a plot
> >hook. We can't know everything, where's the fun in that. :)
>
> Maybe things in the matrix works in different ways.... maybe the Virus is
> an IC from the future... maybe time can be warped. Who knows what lurks in
> the deep of the matrix, awaiting for a hapless decker?
>
> /me politely ask for some resident space under Gurth's stairs :)

Heh..make room for me. I've only heard what Tinner can imagine. I
don't want to think about the others.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Some people are alive, only because its illegal to kill them.

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:21:22 -0700

Message no. 49 Paolo Marcucci wrote:
/
/ At 10:51 09/01/98 -0500, Lehlan Decker said:
/ >I've never seen the Frence book, and I'm not sure if it would
/ >count as FASA "cannon" or not. But since this is how Shadowland etc
/ >survived as well as they did, its certaintly feasible.
/
/ Only that this way France still has much of its old technology documents
/ available. The Crash of 29 is a FASA plot device for justifying the tech
/ level in 205x. If a country (already among the more advanced in the world)
/ didn't suffer from this kind of attack, then their science and technology
/ should be still intact.
/
/ This means France can easily rule the world in 2058 (magic apart). Keep in
/ mind that corp wars were fougth (cfr. Shadowplay) over lost tech items...
/
/ If it isn't so in the France sourcebook (that i don't have), which is the
/ explanation?

I don't have the sourcebook, but IMHO France's disconnection from the
matrix wouldn't have saved them. That virus rocked the information
and communication infra structure of the world and probably brought
things to a dead stop. France may have been technologically secure
but that would have made them the only safe harbor in a world where
every other nation and corporation was sinking. People from other
european countries would have flocked to France. That would have
created population problems, prison problems, crime problems, food
shortages, and probably quite a few riots. Also, even though
companies in France were secure, if they relied on foreign
companies/nations for anything, they were screwed. If your company
makes computers with processors built in Japan and all the shipping
companies shut down because of the virus you can't build your
computers, you can't sell them, you can't pay your employees, you go
out of business. Even after companies replaced lost data with
backups communications lines were still down (the virus lived on the
net for a year) and shipping orders were lost. How does the company
in France contact the company in Japan to reorder the processors?
Meanwhile food shipments that were bound for France aren't going
there anymore, and France can't re-order. If you're the Minister of
France what are you going to say to the people when they start
getting hungry, "Here, have a grape."?

I don't think France weathered the storm better than anyone else.

-David
--
"All glory comes from daring to begin." - Shakespeare
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

From:	s c rose <scrose@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Crash of 29
Date:	Sat, 10 Jan 1998 07:26:18 -0600

Message no. 50 David Buehrer wrote:
>
> Lehlan Decker wrote:
> /
> / Viruses today aren't "alive",and yet I've seen some that will
> / try to disable virus scanners and other such things they "know"
> / will try to hurt them.
> / Perhaps the Virus is somehow linked to the Deep Resonance, only
> / time will tell, and Fasa most likely will leave it up to us.
>
> "Alive" is pretty hard to define. If the virus acts and reacts like a
> living thing it doesn't matter whether it' "alive" or not. It's still a
> nasty mother.

I've been reading this stuff for days and have finally found a point on
which to interject.
Look at the amount 'inteligence' that SK code in the world of shawdow
run has. Very flexible and well able to defend itself aside from it's
the primary task it has been given.

Now look at a biological virus which is not inteligent or even really a
complex life form. None the less biological virus are tricky little
buggers because they mutate and change not because they are complex or
inteligent. That can kill and do great damage to the host they are in.
This can be by direct action IE a virus which attacks vital organs etc.
A virus can also function by making things in a human body not work
right.
Aids (RL) and Vitas in the SR universe are not complex life forms or
inteligent as such but they can and will kill the biological host they
are in by fragging the whole system up...

Regards

Message no. 51 >Only that this way France still has much of its old technology documents
>available. The Crash of 29 is a FASA plot device for justifying the tech
>level in 205x. If a country (already among the more advanced in the world)
>didn't suffer from this kind of attack, then their science and technology
>should be still intact.

Technology is quite advanced in some domains. The reasearch domains only
changed a bit. I think the hypothesis about the crach of '29 is from Nigel
Finley in one of his novels (shadowplay) and not FASA canon.

>This means France can easily rule the world in 2058 (magic apart). Keep in
>mind that corp wars were fougth (cfr. Shadowplay) over lost tech items...
>
>If it isn't so in the France sourcebook (that i don't have), which is the
>explanation?

France has had many political problems. During this time, few research
could be done. Also, interests did change with time. With the arrival of
magic, a lot of people decided to become more religious. Druidism also came
back. All this made people more care about faith than technology.
But, I agree, all these arguments are for a majority and not for every one.
Most big corporations did conglomerate with other european corps and shared
their knowledge with them. France didn't succeed in keeping its knowledge
for itself and so couldn't exploit its uniqueness. But anyway, France still
is a major technological country in 2058.
About some lost technological data, I would say that these are very
specific (like what you pointed in shadowplay) and it isn't sure that
France succeeded in having this data before the crach.
To finish, I would say that it's likely that some data were lost because
the gate couldn't be close at the right time. It is sure that France
reacted very well to the attack from the virus but I don't think it was
totally unaffected (it isn't stated in France sourcebook but I think FASA
will make some modifications on it - Do you know anything about this, Steve
?).

Hope it helps.

Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "Never trust an elf"

Message no. 52 >/ This means France can easily rule the world in 2058 (magic apart). Keep in
>/ mind that corp wars were fougth (cfr. Shadowplay) over lost tech items...
>/
>/ If it isn't so in the France sourcebook (that i don't have), which is the
>/ explanation?
>
>I don't have the sourcebook, but IMHO France's disconnection from the
>matrix wouldn't have saved them. That virus rocked the information
>and communication infra structure of the world and probably brought
>things to a dead stop. France may have been technologically secure
>but that would have made them the only safe harbor in a world where
>every other nation and corporation was sinking. People from other
>european countries would have flocked to France. That would have
>created population problems, prison problems, crime problems, food
>shortages, and probably quite a few riots.

Exactly.

> Also, even though
>companies in France were secure, if they relied on foreign
>companies/nations for anything, they were screwed. If your company
>makes computers with processors built in Japan and all the shipping
>companies shut down because of the virus you can't build your
>computers, you can't sell them, you can't pay your employees, you go
>out of business. Even after companies replaced lost data with
>backups communications lines were still down (the virus lived on the
>net for a year) and shipping orders were lost. How does the company
>in France contact the company in Japan to reorder the processors?

All this is true for the time during the virus' action. When everything
goes again, France had an edge over most countries. This edge was even
better with the fact that France didn't actively participate in the euro
wars. The only actions they had was to stop the conflict with a harsh
offensive on both sides.
Some corporations did gain some knowledge from this, especially Fushi and
Renraku. Perhaps this permitted them to become such major corporations.

>Meanwhile food shipments that were bound for France aren't going
>there anymore, and France can't re-order. If you're the Minister of
>France what are you going to say to the people when they start
>getting hungry, "Here, have a grape."?

That's right. Major political problems made the use of technology almost
null but not totally. I think that developments to beat the virus were made
in France because it was a safe place.

>I don't think France weathered the storm better than anyone else.

Only a bit better... :)

Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "Never trust an elf"

Message no. 53 William Gallas wrote:
/
/ > Also, even though
/ >companies in France were secure, if they relied on foreign
/ >companies/nations for anything, they were screwed. If your company
/ >makes computers with processors built in Japan and all the shipping
/ >companies shut down because of the virus you can't build your
/ >computers, you can't sell them, you can't pay your employees, you go
/ >out of business. Even after companies replaced lost data with
/ >backups communications lines were still down (the virus lived on the
/ >net for a year) and shipping orders were lost. How does the company
/ >in France contact the company in Japan to reorder the processors?
/
/ All this is true for the time during the virus' action. When everything
/ goes again, France had an edge over most countries.

I disagree. If only a few countries were affected then France would
have the edge after the virus was defeated. But every other country
and corporation in the world was affected seriously, and France
is/was not an isolationist country from an international economic
perspective. If every other country got screwed, they got screwed
just as hard. Only those companies that had no international
dependancies whatsoever would come out on top. And the number of such
companies would be extremely low. And the time of the virus' action
was a year(?). That's a long, long time if you're a business.

/ This edge was even
/ better with the fact that France didn't actively participate in the euro
/ wars.

If you're next door to a war, you're affected big time. Look at
Africa as an example. I can't remember the names, but look at what
happened when millions of refugees from one country flocked to their
neighbooring country. Imagine the number of refugees that flooded
France when several of its neighboors went to war.

/ Some corporations did gain some knowledge from this, especially Fushi and
/ Renraku. Perhaps this permitted them to become such major corporations.

? Those are Japanese corporations, not French. You lost me on this
one.

/ >I don't think France weathered the storm better than anyone else.
/ / Only a bit better... :)

Not by much, IMHO :)

-David
--
"Who dares nothing, need hope for nothing." - Johann von Schiller
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

Message no. 54 >/ This edge was even
>/ better with the fact that France didn't actively participate in the euro
>/ wars.
>
>If you're next door to a war, you're affected big time. Look at
>Africa as an example. I can't remember the names, but look at what
>happened when millions of refugees from one country flocked to their
>neighbooring country. Imagine the number of refugees that flooded
>France when several of its neighboors went to war.

Nope. At that time, France was very isolationist and closed its frontier.
Considering what happened in the country at the same time, I would say that
refugees from other countries were killed if they were taken in the France
territory.

>/ Some corporations did gain some knowledge from this, especially Fushi and
>/ Renraku. Perhaps this permitted them to become such major corporations.
>
>? Those are Japanese corporations, not French. You lost me on this
>one.

I didn't mean that Fushi was french but the corporation has special accords
with France for a long time.

>/ >I don't think France weathered the storm better than anyone else.
>/ / Only a bit better... :)
>
>Not by much, IMHO :)

I didn't say it was the best country in the world. :)

>-David
>--
>"Who dares nothing, need hope for nothing." - Johann von Schiller
>--
>http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
>

Message no. 55 William Gallas wrote:
/
/ >/ This edge was even
/ >/ better with the fact that France didn't actively participate in the euro
/ >/ wars.
/ >
/ >If you're next door to a war, you're affected big time. Look at
/ >Africa as an example. I can't remember the names, but look at what
/ >happened when millions of refugees from one country flocked to their
/ >neighbooring country. Imagine the number of refugees that flooded
/ >France when several of its neighboors went to war.
/
/ Nope. At that time, France was very isolationist and closed its frontier.
/ Considering what happened in the country at the same time, I would say that
/ refugees from other countries were killed if they were taken in the France
/ territory.

Gah. So, like, I'm guessing that every other citizen of europe hates
France because A: they didn't help, and B: they shot anybody trying
to escape from the war to France. Even if France did come out of the
crash with an edge, who the hell would trade with them afterwards.
And god forbid if you're a frenchman and try to vacation, or do
business, in a european country.

/ >/ >I don't think France weathered the storm better than anyone else.
/ >/ / Only a bit better... :)
/ >
/ >Not by much, IMHO :)
/
/ I didn't say it was the best country in the world. :)

I'm not going there ;)

-David
--
"Who dares nothing, need hope for nothing." - Johann von Schiller
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

Message no. 56 >/ Nope. At that time, France was very isolationist and closed its frontier.
>/ Considering what happened in the country at the same time, I would say that
>/ refugees from other countries were killed if they were taken in the France
>/ territory.
>
>Gah. So, like, I'm guessing that every other citizen of europe hates
>France because A: they didn't help, and B: they shot anybody trying
>to escape from the war to France. Even if France did come out of the
>crash with an edge, who the hell would trade with them afterwards.
>And god forbid if you're a frenchman and try to vacation, or do
>business, in a european country.

Not so simple. :)
France isn't well seen by many nations but has some allies though. We
mustn't forget that these events were more than 30 years in the past.
There's a good chance that every one forgot this. As an exemple, I would
give Germany. It made much more awful crimes but is actually one of the
main nations, with good economical relations. Businessmen don't care much
about the humanity of their associates, they only think about the money
they gain.

SR is dark but perhaps our world is worse.

Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "Never trust an elf"

Message no. 57 William Gallas said on 18:07/12 Jan 98...

> I didn't say it was the best country in the world. :)

One down, several million to go :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Round here, hey man, I got a lot of time...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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