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Message no. 1
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Crazy LOS question.
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1993 20:00:15 -0600
Ok, lets pretend that I have a telescope with a Hubble sized mirror.
Could I pinpoint and beat up on an asteroid with a RAM spell, even if it
was several million miles away?

Just curious...

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> Veteran of the Bermuda Triangle
\/ Finger for PGP 2.3a Public Key <=> Expeditionary Force -- 1993-1951
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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n-(---) h+(*) f+ g+ w++ t++ r++ y+(*)
Message no. 2
From: Hal Mangold <hmangold@*******.AC.RUNET.EDU>
Subject: Crazy LOS question. (fwd)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1993 21:04:00 EST
>
> Ok, lets pretend that I have a telescope with a Hubble sized mirror.
> Could I pinpoint and beat up on an asteroid with a RAM spell, even if it
> was several million miles away?
>
> Just curious...
>
> ____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
> \ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
> \/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> Veteran of the Bermuda Triangle
> \/ Finger for PGP 2.3a Public Key <=> Expeditionary Force -- 1993-1951
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Hold still, brother, whilst I exorcise the demon munchkin from yer soul
with mine annoited holy carp...



TTTTTTTTTT HH HH WW WW AA PPPPPPP || ||
TT HH HH WW WW AAAA PP PP || ||
TT HH HH WW WW AA AA PP PP || ||
TT HHHHHHHH WW WW WW AA AA PPPPPPP || ||
TT HH HH WW WW WW AAAAAAAA PP || ||
TT HH HH WWWWWWWW AA AA PP
TT HH HH WW WW AA AA PP .. ..


THOU ART HEALED!!!!!!!

(hee hee!)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hal Mangold >> hmangold@*******.ac.runet.edu >> "Its a shame about
Ray..."
Castagir >> Radford University >> The Lemonheads
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Message no. 3
From: Richard Pieri <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Crazy LOS question.
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1993 21:04:31 EST
>>>>> On Sun, 7 Nov 1993 20:00:15 -0600 (CST), "Robert A. Hayden"
>>>>> <hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu> said:

hayden> Ok, lets pretend that I have a telescope with a Hubble sized
hayden> mirror. Could I pinpoint and beat up on an asteroid with a RAM
hayden> spell, even if it was several million miles away?

If you are of the camp that magic doesn't extend outside of Earth's
biosphere, then of course not.

If you are not of that camp, then yes it would work, because you have a
direct LOS from your aura to the asteroid's. As Ram is not a physical
manipulation spell, you can reflect it.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> Northeastern's Stainless Steel Rat
ask about rat-pgp.el v1.63 PGP Public Key Block available upon request
||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |||
...kcab nrut ,kcab nrut ,kcab nruT .ton si emit tub elbisrever si cisum ehT
`hgiH nO eriF' ,OLE--
Message no. 4
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Crazy LOS question.
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1993 20:09:16 -0600
On Sun, 7 Nov 1993, Richard Pieri wrote:

> If you are of the camp that magic doesn't extend outside of Earth's
> biosphere, then of course not.

Oops, ok, I forgot about that crazy biospere thing. I was just trying to
think of something really far away.

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> Veteran of the Bermuda Triangle
\/ Finger for PGP 2.3a Public Key <=> Expeditionary Force -- 1993-1951
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Message no. 5
From: "Ahern T. Stephan" <MAXIM@****.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Crazy LOS question.
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1993 20:06:35 -0600
Even though I do not have the SRII rule book, I would ay sure, but your TN is
probably going to be jacked way up.

----Hail Lord Kurita!!!

"And he stood there, looking over the battlefield from his Thunderbolt,
realizing he is the only one left."
Message no. 6
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Crazy LOS question.
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1993 20:13:55 -0600
On Sun, 7 Nov 1993, Ahern T. Stephan wrote:

> Even though I do not have the SRII rule book, I would ay sure, but your TN is
> probably going to be jacked way up.

I don't think your TN would be effected. Your TN for RAM is the
resistance code of the object, which, as it is natural, would be a TN of 3.


____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> Veteran of the Bermuda Triangle
\/ Finger for PGP 2.3a Public Key <=> Expeditionary Force -- 1993-1951
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 1.0.1) GAT d- -p+(---) c++(++++) l++ u++ e+/* m++(*)@ s-/++
n-(---) h+(*) f+ g+ w++ t++ r++ y+(*)
Message no. 7
From: Richard Pieri <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Crazy LOS question.
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1993 21:18:45 EST
hayden> On Sun, 7 Nov 1993, Ahern T. Stephan wrote:
>> Even though I do not have the SRII rule book, I would ay sure, but your
>> TN is probably going to be jacked way up.

>>>>> On Sun, 7 Nov 1993 20:13:55 -0600 (CST), "Robert A. Hayden"
>>>>> <hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu> said:
hayden> I don't think your TN would be effected. Your TN for RAM is the
hayden> resistance code of the object, which, as it is natural, would be a
hayden> TN of 3.

RAH is correct. Range has no effect on T#s for most spells, unless there's
a spell-specific restriction for a particular spell. If you can see the
target, you can hit them with the spell.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> Northeastern's Stainless Steel Rat
ask about rat-pgp.el v1.63 PGP Public Key Block available upon request
||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |||
God made man, but he used a monkey to do it/Apes is the plan, we're all
here to prove it/I can walk like an ape, talk like an ape, I can do what
monkeys do/God made man, but the monkeys applied the glue.
--DEVO, `Jocko Homo'
Message no. 8
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Crazy LOS question.
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 12:00:14 +0930
>
>Ok, lets pretend that I have a telescope with a Hubble sized mirror.
>Could I pinpoint and beat up on an asteroid with a RAM spell, even if it
>was several million miles away?
>
>Just curious...

No, cause the telescope focus is all blurred... :)

More seriously, is the telescope optical or electrical? And you still have to
get round the problem of spells leaving the atmosphere.

How about this scenario: A mage runs a fibre optic cable halfway around the
world, looks down it, sees someone, and zaps said target...


--
Robert Watkins bob@******.cs.ntu.edu.au
Geek Code: GCS d-(?) p---@ c++++ !l u+ e+(e-)(e*) m+(m-) s-/* n-(n---) h++(h*)
f g+ w+ t++ r+(r--) y+
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers are around at 9 am,
it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 9
From: "Glenn F. Gorsuch" <ggorsuch@****.CSUCHICO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Crazy LOS question
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1993 18:25:38 -0800
On a slightly different angle...and ignoring that "crazy biosphere stuff",
how fast does magic travel (in the mundane world, the Astral, both, etc)?
I mean, we all know we can nuke a sammi in one round, should we be sufficiently
lucky, er, skillful. But that's rather imprecise. I know we can even zip
around Astrally with vim, vigor, and vitality. But does that Magic Fingers
spell "move" faster (to the point where it takes effect) than say...a car? My
voice? A multi-mach suborbital capsule? Light??? (OK, that's rather unlikely-
but still...)

No reason to be asking this, but why not? Someone's got to help the good
Mr. Hayden with those questions that keep us all up at night.

Glenn
--
This insightful commentary was brought to you by Glenn F. Gorsuch. Treasure it.
Address? Oh yeah. It's: ggorsuch@****.csuchico.edu Like I'd lie :)
I stand behind everything I just said. Way behind, if possible. Miles, even.
You have come to The End. Please flip this post over and press play to continue.
Message no. 10
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Crazy LOS question
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 12:08:01 +0930
>
> On a slightly different angle...and ignoring that "crazy biosphere
stuff",
>how fast does magic travel (in the mundane world, the Astral, both, etc)?
>I mean, we all know we can nuke a sammi in one round, should we be sufficiently
>lucky, er, skillful. But that's rather imprecise. I know we can even zip
>around Astrally with vim, vigor, and vitality. But does that Magic Fingers
>spell "move" faster (to the point where it takes effect) than say...a car?
My
>voice? A multi-mach suborbital capsule? Light??? (OK, that's rather unlikely-
>but still...)
>
> No reason to be asking this, but why not? Someone's got to help the good
>Mr. Hayden with those questions that keep us all up at night.
>
>Glenn
>

Well... A spell has attributes equal to it's force. And (meta)humans can move
at a max speed equal to their Intx1000 kph (I think...). So, I'd say a spell
moves at the same speed.

It can't happen instantly, cause it's possible to block spells astrally.

--
Robert Watkins bob@******.cs.ntu.edu.au
Geek Code: GCS d-(?) p---@ c++++ !l u+ e+(e-)(e*) m+(m-) s-/* n-(n---) h++(h*)
f g+ w+ t++ r+(r--) y+
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers are around at 9 am,
it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 11
From: Richard Pieri <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Crazy LOS question.
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1993 21:43:16 EST
>>>>> On Mon, 8 Nov 1993 12:00:14 +0930 (CST), Robert Watkins
>>>>> <bob@**.ntu.edu.au> said:

>> Ok, lets pretend that I have a telescope with a Hubble sized mirror.
>> Could I pinpoint and beat up on an asteroid with a RAM spell, even if it
>> was several million miles away?

bob> No, cause the telescope focus is all blurred... :)

Only if he were trying to use the Hubble itself.

bob> More seriously, is the telescope optical or electrical? And you still
bob> have to get round the problem of spells leaving the atmosphere.

If it weren't optical, why would it have a mirror as part of the focusing
array?

bob> How about this scenario: A mage runs a fibre optic cable halfway
bob> around the world, looks down it, sees someone, and zaps said target...

Won't work, because fibre-optic cable can't maintain a signal that long
without a signal repeater, which requires some kind of electronic
amplification. Fibre-optics reqire repeaters every 500 to 1000 feet,
because imperfections in the media will cause loss of signal.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> Northeastern's Stainless Steel Rat
ask about rat-pgp.el v1.63 PGP Public Key Block available upon request
||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |||
Once upon a time, there was a sweet, singing dinosaur named Barney. One
sunny day, Barney decided to take his friend Baby Bop to Jurassic Park...
--Alexandra Bost <alex@***.sas.com>
Message no. 12
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Crazy LOS question.
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 12:20:52 +0930
>bob> How about this scenario: A mage runs a fibre optic cable halfway
>bob> around the world, looks down it, sees someone, and zaps said target...
>
>Won't work, because fibre-optic cable can't maintain a signal that long
>without a signal repeater, which requires some kind of electronic
>amplification. Fibre-optics reqire repeaters every 500 to 1000 feet,
>because imperfections in the media will cause loss of signal.
>
Still, sounds like a good way to maintain corporate security.

Have the fibre-optic cables connect to screens. (Keeping within the 500-1000
feet limit, of course). Security dweebs spot intrepid shadowrunners breaking
in. (It's all optical, so the decker can't get at it). They call the wage mage
over, unplug the tv screen, mage fries the party.

While we're at it, what's the ruling on casting spells through one-way
mirrors?? I presume this can be done, as most vehicle windows in 205x are
one-way, and magicians cast spells through those all the time.


--
Robert Watkins bob@******.cs.ntu.edu.au
Geek Code: GCS d-(?) p---@ c++++ !l u+ e+(e-)(e*) m+(m-) s-/* n-(n---) h++(h*)
f g+ w+ t++ r+(r--) y+
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers are around at 9 am,
it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 13
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Crazy LOS question. (fwd)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1993 21:46:20 GMT
> Ok, lets pretend that I have a telescope with a Hubble sized mirror.
> Could I pinpoint and beat up on an asteroid with a RAM spell, even if it
> was several million miles away?

>>Hold still, brother, whilst I exorcise the demon munchkin from yer soul
>>with mine annoited holy carp...

I don't think that deserved a thwap. Besides, you didn't answer the man's
question.

I don't think you could, if you accept the postulation that there is either
not enough or not any mana in outer space, which would prevent the spell
from traveling their.

Here's a magical theory idea: What if spells could be developed to appear
away from their target, as long as they were in LOS? For instance, instead
of the spell traveling from the mage to the target, the spell forms behind or
right next to the target. It would still have to be LOS because the aura
cannot be seen through electronic means; there must be a direct LOS from
target to caster. This would also preclude casting spells at potentially
mana-rich extra-terrestrial environments, like Venus.


J Roberson
Message no. 14
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Crazy LOS question.
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1993 21:51:55 GMT
>How about this scenario: A mage runs a fibre optic cable halfway around the
>world, looks down it, sees someone, and zaps said target...

No way. Fiber optics are used to transmit electronic data. They are NOT
periscopes.

Although, how about a giant mirro in space. Use telecope to look at it and
pick an image being reflected (the mirror is computer-controlled and can
focus on things like people, or at least large buildings). Since spells travel
directly to their target, not along LOS (except damaging manipulations) this
could be a strategic weapon of great value. Probably something UCAS is
working on.


J Roberson
Message no. 15
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Crazy LOS question.
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1993 21:59:42 -0600
On Sun, 7 Nov 1993, The Deb Decker wrote:

> Although, how about a giant mirro in space. Use telecope to look at it and
> pick an image being reflected (the mirror is computer-controlled and can
> focus on things like people, or at least large buildings). Since spells travel
> directly to their target, not along LOS (except damaging manipulations) this
> could be a strategic weapon of great value. Probably something UCAS is
> working on.

You are quite evil, you know that?

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> Veteran of the Bermuda Triangle
\/ Finger for PGP 2.3a Public Key <=> Expeditionary Force -- 1993-1951
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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n-(---) h+(*) f+ g+ w++ t++ r++ y+(*)
Message no. 16
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Crazy LOS question.
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 13:30:54 +0930
>
>>How about this scenario: A mage runs a fibre optic cable halfway around the
>>world, looks down it, sees someone, and zaps said target...
>
>No way. Fiber optics are used to transmit electronic data. They are NOT
>periscopes.
>
I must stamp on this: Fibre-optics are used to transmit light, and only light.
This can be interpreted as electronic data, but it's still light. One example
of the kind of thing I mentioned is something showed in Patriot Games: a person
slides a fibre-optic cable under a door sill, and looks at it through a
magnifying screen.


--
Robert Watkins bob@******.cs.ntu.edu.au
Geek Code: GCS d-(?) p---@ c++++ !l u+ e+(e-)(e*) m+(m-) s-/* n-(n---) h++(h*)
f g+ w+ t++ r+(r--) y+
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers are around at 9 am,
it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 17
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Crazy LOS question
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1993 22:04:24 GMT
>But does that Magic Fingers
>spell "move" faster (to the point where it takes effect) than say...a car?
My
>voice? A multi-mach suborbital capsule? Light??? (OK, that's rather unlikely-
>but still...)

Yes to all except possibly light. Astral movement is the speed of thought;
that's why your astral Quickness=Intelligence.

J Roberson
Message no. 18
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Crazy LOS question.
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1993 22:14:06 GMT
>Have the fibre-optic cables connect to screens. (Keeping within the 500-1000
>feet limit, of course). Security dweebs spot intrepid shadowrunners breaking
>in. (It's all optical, so the decker can't get at it). They call the wage mage
>over, unplug the tv screen, mage fries the party.

No. The fiber optics are cables that transmit information via modulated
light. Just like normal transmission lines, except they use light instead
of electricity. You cannot look down them.

>While we're at it, what's the ruling on casting spells through one-way
>mirrors?? I presume this can be done, as most vehicle windows in 205x are
>one-way, and magicians cast spells through those all the time.

I just got tinted windows. Whee. . .now mages can't see me and I'm safe
(except from a Ram spell, of course). A mage can cast through the see-through
side of a mirror, like casting Detect Truth on a subject in the interrogation
room, but not Flame Bomb through the same miror from the interrogation side.

J Roberson
Message no. 19
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Crazy LOS question.
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1993 22:18:22 GMT
>>You are quite evil, you know that?

I have an appointment with Mr. Luke Ifer at 10:30 tomorrow to discuss
long-term strategic prospects on his specail mail-order Anything You Want!
campaign. Seems they're unsure about whether or not people will settle for
his rather steep finder's fee. :)


J Roberson
Message no. 20
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Crazy LOS question.
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1993 22:20:33 GMT
>I must stamp on this: Fibre-optics are used to transmit light, and only light.
>This can be interpreted as electronic data, but it's still light. One example
>of the kind of thing I mentioned is something showed in Patriot Games: a person
>slides a fibre-optic cable under a door sill, and looks at it through a
>magnifying screen.

Stamp all you want. They shove a tiny camera down there; the fiber-optic
carries the data to the imaging system. You need some kind of electronic
imaging to see what's on the other end, which would preclude using it
to target spells.


J Roberson
Message no. 21
From: DV82REL8 <GRAFF85@********.CORTLAND.EDU>
Subject: Re: Crazy LOS question
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 09:02:15 -0400
>Ok, lets pretend that I have a telescope with a Hubble sized mirror.
>Could I pinpoint and beat up on an asteroid with a RAM spell, even if it
>was several million miles away?
>
>Just curious...
>
>____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu

If you are looking optically, theoretically yes....

David Graff | GEEK CODE v1.0.1
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Cortland, Ny 13045| h* f+(--) g++ w+++ t++(---) r(++) y?
607.753.4789 |
Message no. 22
From: Todd Montgomery <tmont@****.WVU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Crazy LOS question.
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 10:18:57 -0500
>From Deb Decker:
> No. The fiber optics are cables that transmit information via modulated
> light. Just like normal transmission lines, except they use light instead
> of electricity. You cannot look down them.

APPLAUSE!!!!!!!!!

At least someone has some sense about this.

BTW: The Patriot Games scene is a bunch of BS. Take a fiber optic cable
and look at how it works. The light bounces down the cable. You know what
this would look like from a magnifying glass? Ever look down a mirrored
Stainless steel pipe? You can not differenciate between reflections and
non-reflected light. AND from my tranmission lines class in fibers, I
learned that the attenuation of fibers is (rather) high. That is why
Rat mentioned the repeaters every 500+ feet. And the dB of the transmitter
must be really high.

-- Quiktek
-- Todd Montgomery
tmont@****.wvu.edu
tmont@***.wvu.edu
un032507@*******.wvnet.edu
Message no. 23
From: "Stephen R. Wilcoxon" <wilcoxon@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Crazy LOS question.
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 14:00:32 -0500
> From Deb Decker:
> > No. The fiber optics are cables that transmit information via modulated
> > light. Just like normal transmission lines, except they use light instead
> > of electricity. You cannot look down them.
>
> APPLAUSE!!!!!!!!!
>
> At least someone has some sense about this.
>
> BTW: The Patriot Games scene is a bunch of BS. Take a fiber optic cable
> and look at how it works. The light bounces down the cable. You know what
> this would look like from a magnifying glass? Ever look down a mirrored
> Stainless steel pipe? You can not differenciate between reflections and
> non-reflected light. AND from my tranmission lines class in fibers, I
> learned that the attenuation of fibers is (rather) high. That is why
> Rat mentioned the repeaters every 500+ feet. And the dB of the transmitter
> must be really high.

>From what I've read, the Patriot Games device does exist. It amounts to (I
believe) a VERY small camera on the "tip" and the view-screen on the other
end. I've never read any real specs on it, but that's because it's
probably classified or some such...


Twilight

The Crystal Wind is the Storm, and the Storm is Data, and the Data is Life.
-- The Player's Litany
Message no. 24
From: Ben Houston <HOUSTOBC@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Crazy LOS question
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 16:20:51 -0700
Real short, real brief. I did some experiments last year in Physics and
Holography with fiberoptics, and I'll tell you that they really don't transfer
light that well. Especially not a picture or whatever. As far as the cameras in
surgery and Patriot goes (I love Tom Clancy...), there has to be a processor of
some sort to translate real images into binary code. Then of course, another
translater at the other to decode. This should destroy its ability to be used
with magic. Any objections, questions, comments?
-Shadowspawn
P.S. When I mean don't transfer light well, I mean for full picture,
like telescopy. It's fine for pulses of LASER light, but as mentioned earlier,
it needs amplification every so often because of the high resistance. Basically
all media (including windows) are very resistant to light waves.
Message no. 25
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Crazy LOS question.
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 19:50:10 GMT
>From what I've read, the Patriot Games device does exist. It amounts to (I
>believe) a VERY small camera on the "tip" and the view-screen on the other
>end. I've never read any real specs on it, but that's because it's
>probably classified or some such...

Righty-roo. You can't hold the damn thing up to your eye and say "HelLO
NURSE!". Even a lensing system wouldn't work, for reasons others have pointed
out. It requires an electronic gizmo to read the CCD (which is the imaging
sensorin your camcorder; the pros have about 3; "prosumer-I hate that term-
models have maybe 2, and most others have but 1) data and turn it into a
picture. Electronic imaging. No spellsight.


J Roberson
Message no. 26
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Crazy LOS question.
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 11:56:52 +0930
>At least someone has some sense about this.
>
>BTW: The Patriot Games scene is a bunch of BS. Take a fiber optic cable
>and look at how it works. The light bounces down the cable. You know what
>this would look like from a magnifying glass? Ever look down a mirrored
>Stainless steel pipe? You can not differenciate between reflections and
>non-reflected light. AND from my tranmission lines class in fibers, I
>learned that the attenuation of fibers is (rather) high. That is why
>Rat mentioned the repeaters every 500+ feet. And the dB of the transmitter
>must be really high.
>
Okay, I take back my earlier q about using fibre-optics to cast a spell
through.
BUT: the Patriot Games scene is only BS in that they could have had colour,
rather than just that grey-on-green it did (But they may have been trying for
low-light, so who knows). Such technology is around now, and is used in medical
work.

And the real question I was asking (I guess), was exactly how much of the aura
do you need to see to cast a spell at?? Reflection,refraction, these don't seem
to bother the spell when it finds the aura. Is it really just a case of you can
see it, you can zap it??


--
Robert Watkins bob@******.cs.ntu.edu.au
Geek Code: GCS d-(?) p---@ c++++ !l u+ e+(e-)(e*) m+(m-) s-/* n-(n---) h++(h*)
f g+ w+ t++ r+(r--) y+
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers are around at 9 am,
it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 27
From: Ioannis Fikouras <j07c@***.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Crazy LOS question.
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 13:17:08 +0100
> And the real question I was asking (I guess), was exactly how much of the aura
> do you need to see to cast a spell at?? Reflection,refraction, these don't seem
> to bother the spell when it finds the aura. Is it really just a case of you can
> see it, you can zap it??

Well the way we play it is we use the modifiers for firearms.
That is partial cover, full cover etc. can 'hinder' the caster
thus raising his TN.
--

Strong am I with the Force... but not that strong!
Twilight is upon me and soon night must fall.
That is the way of things ... the way of the Force.
Message no. 28
From: Todd Montgomery <tmont@****.WVU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Crazy LOS question.
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 10:28:12 -0500
> Righty-roo. You can't hold the damn thing up to your eye and say "HelLO
> NURSE!". Even a lensing system wouldn't work, for reasons others have pointed
> out. It requires an electronic gizmo to read the CCD (which is the imaging
> sensorin your camcorder; the pros have about 3; "prosumer-I hate that term-
> models have maybe 2, and most others have but 1) data and turn it into a
> picture. Electronic imaging. No spellsight.

Here is the basics of a CCD imaging system.

The camera element is a photonic cell which has an array of nxn (or nxm)
subcells. Each subcell sends a voltage level to an nxn (or nxm) array of
registers under the whole cell. These registers hold the voltage level
of each cell. Then the rows (or columns) of the register array are shifted
into a cascade of shift registers and then shifted out onto a transmission
line (for the medical applications most likely fiber). Everything is DSP,
in other words, each signal is a set of bits representing a voltage. The
time it takes the camera to shift out ALL of the data captured in the
photonic cell can be quite small (sometimes less than 1 msec.). This is
how most fiber-optic CCD systems function (minus the system at the other
end of the fiber).

Nice, but what the hell does this have to do with SR?

I had a thought. Dangerous. Suppose someone modified this system principle
a bit. Most agree that mages can cast through cybereyes. All the cybereyes
do is interpret the incoming light (or signals) and transmit them to the brain.
All one would have to do is make an imaging system that could transmit
pure light to the eyes and let a sophisticated cybernetic implant work
on the data and present it to the brain. (Same principle of cybereyes
actually). But make the imaging system miniature and capable of perceiving
long ranges. Example: Bob has this special implant that works with this
imaging system. All Bob does is connect his eyes to this system. The light
from the system is the same light (not electronically generated) that
bounced off the target. Bob can now fry the target. With a combat spell
of course.

The system would be composed of a sophisticated lensing system that is made
very small. The CCD type system is implanted in the brain. The photonic cell
of the CCD is in the brain (paid for in essence). So the light of the lensing
system is pure light and is acted upon by the CCD in the eyes to make the
picture. Which is then interpreted in any shape or form desired (Low-Light,
Thermo, etc...).

What is new? Oh, This may have all seemed like jibberish, but think of this.
Make a lensing system and CCD system which works together to provide detailed
images at long range (100's of km). A very sophisticated telescope. Now you
have magical artillery. Get the mage high enough with this system and
he can theoretically look at something an extreme distance away.

The problem is that using the optional range rules for combat spells would
make this damn near impossible if the range was determined not by sight but
by actual range. If this were actually visual range, then this could bring
those T# down to reasonable levels.

Personally, I am kind of thinking of making cybereyes preclude magic. I know
I am going to get it for this. But I do not like the idea of the above being
done. And I feel that most mages should not get cybereyes anyway. And the
above works EXACTLY as cybereyes work so it could be legal under the rules.

Any thoughts?

-- Quiktek
-- Todd Montgomery
tmont@****.wvu.edu
tmont@***.wvu.edu
un032507@*******.wvnet.edu
Message no. 29
From: The Powerhouse <P.C.Steele@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Crazy LOS question.
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 16:30:22 GMT
> Here is the basics of a CCD imaging system.
[ deleted ]
> Nice, but what the hell does this have to do with SR?
It's gobbldy gook you can use to confuse your players with. I do it all the
time when they want an explanation of how something electronic works, and
because it's my area of expertise they believe me :)

> I had a thought. Dangerous. Suppose someone modified this system principle
> a bit. Most agree that mages can cast through cybereyes. All the cybereyes
> do is interpret the incoming light (or signals) and transmit them to the
brain.

Uhhuh, no problems so far.

> All one would have to do is make an imaging system that could transmit
> pure light to the eyes and let a sophisticated cybernetic implant work
> on the data and present it to the brain. (Same principle of cybereyes

Pure light ? Are we talking from a screen of some sort of natural reflected
light ?

> actually). But make the imaging system miniature and capable of perceiving
> long ranges. Example: Bob has this special implant that works with this
> imaging system. All Bob does is connect his eyes to this system. The light
> from the system is the same light (not electronically generated) that
> bounced off the target. Bob can now fry the target. With a combat spell
> of course.

Aha I see you're not talking about a screen, you're talking about somehow
reconstructing the picture in the eyes using the reflected/refracted light.

[ rest of stuff deleted ]

I think you need to look carefully at what you are doing. You are using the
fact that you can cast spells off of mirrors. However I don't think this idea
was meant to be taken to extremes, maybe one or two mirrors at max and the
mage must still be able to see the image clearly.

I'm also not quite sure how your tech would work. It's the pure light thing
thats getting me ? You can do it through binoculars or a telescope as long
as it's natural unamplified unchanged light all the way. You can put it
through lenses and mirrors, no more. Fibre optics is out as stated before
because of the refraction/reflection etc.

There is also another more fundamental point to do with the way magic works.
The mage slightly brings himself into tune with the targets aura. This could
cause problems, as could the old adage "Young bucks wonder why spells cast
through pin holes fail".

I say go on the safe side, if you can see it without any fancy gadgetry then go
for it. If not I've a THWAP waiting to be posted back here :)

Phill.
--
Phillip Steele - Email address P.C.Steele@***.ac.uk | An Uzi a day keeps the
Department Of Electrical & Electronic Engineering | politicians at bay O O
University Of Newcastle Upon Tyne, England | |
Land of the mad Geordies | The Powerhouse \_/
Message no. 30
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Crazy LOS question.
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 14:36:33 GMT
>actually). But make the imaging system miniature and capable of perceiving
>long ranges. Example: Bob has this special implant that works with this

I call it "Electronic or Optical magnification-3"

>The system would be composed of a sophisticated lensing system that is made
>very small. The CCD type system is implanted in the brain. The photonic cell

Right, the CCD is part of the cybereye.

>images at long range (100's of km). A very sophisticated telescope. Now you

That's not long range. That's way out thar!

I don't know if a purely optical version of that capacity could be
made small enough to be implemented as cyberware. Your depth of field
would also be very screwy.

Before going any further, let's figure out where magic fits into the
battlefield of Shadowrun. Not on the streets, but in the standing army. How
commno are mages? Let's judge by the rules and not Shadowtalk or the average
Srun party. I recall something like 1 in a million, which seems kind of low;
that would yield about 5000 mages worldwide today. Maybe 1 in 10,000-still
rare, but enough to be systematically incorporated into government/corp
units.

Anyway, what do mages do in war? Cast spells. There would probably be
specialist. However, if mages are that rare, I don't see them riding into
battle (well, I do, but it doesn't make sense). They are too valuable to
risk losing to a lucky ATGM or bullet.

So, like Todd said, they stand back and chuck spells at these obscene
ranges. Like a Battleship in shore bombardment. Imagine this: Ship-mounted
telecope zooms in on enemy bunker 30 miles inland. Mage steps up to the plate
(which conveniently has a cirlce, or whatever they use to increase their
powers) and tosses Urban renewal. It works, provided the enemy didn't magically
shield it. They probably wouldn't have it warded, unless it was very important.
What if they grew lots of plants on it?

I was wondering about this because the other day someone on SHadowtalk
posted about how he came across a Tir Thunderbird while astrally scouting
an area and killed the crew by grounding a spell through the tank mage's
focus. What if they draped the tank with a SHRUBBERY! or some other living
plants, blocking his entrance? Would that keep the mage inside from
tossing spells at targets he sees out the window?

Or, you could have mages target via the optical satellite imagin I
mentioned the other day. Can you say Strategic Ritual Sorcery?


J Roberson

Further Reading

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Thwap!