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Message no. 1
From: bulletraven@***********.com (Peter Mellett)
Subject: Creating a good challenge for the PCs
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 12:55:59 +0000
I'm having trouble in my SR4 game creating enough of a challenge for the
characters. Ideally I need them to be only just surviving 'boss' style
encounters however they seem to be able to totally annihilate anything I
send their way. Are there any general tips for challenging them more
without killing everyone 10 minutes into a session?

Cheers,
Pete
Message no. 2
From: graht1@*****.com (Graht)
Subject: Creating a good challenge for the PCs
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 09:00:44 -0700
On 2/22/06, Peter Mellett <bulletraven@***********.com> wrote:
> I'm having trouble in my SR4 game creating enough of a challenge for the
> characters. Ideally I need them to be only just surviving 'boss' style
> encounters however they seem to be able to totally annihilate anything I
> send their way. Are there any general tips for challenging them more
> without killing everyone 10 minutes into a session?

I gave up trying to run challenging combat encounters a long time ago.
In my campaigns the almost all combats are there for fun, or for
redirection (either the characters have a fair chance of winning, or
they're running for their lives). That's not to say that all combat
encounters in the player's favor are cakewalks.

I challenge players with mysteries, puzzles, moral decisions, etc.

Or, give the combat encounter a twist. For example, instead of having
a straight up shoot out with the police, have the characters inside of
a dark building when the overwhelming police show up outside and start
making their way up the stairs and elevators in pairs to do a floor by
floor search and the players have to make their way through to the
basement where they can escape into the sewers, taking out any
encountered police (or bad guys) quickly and efficiently and then get
out of that area before they are swarmed.

Or, have the combat encounter in an unforgiving environment (factories
where all of the machines are turned on and operating, providing
shifting cover, or a chemical factory where a stray shot could
puncture a tank filled with who knows what).

Non lethal weapons can provide a surprising challenge. Knock a
character on his ass repeatedly with shotguns loaded with rubber
pellets and see how he deals with it ;)

And finally, mix a combat encounter with a task, like saving the
maiden from the death trap while holding off the ninjas (yes it's
cliche, but it's also a lot of fun).


--
-Graht
Message no. 3
From: bulletraven@***********.com (Peter Mellett)
Subject: Creating a good challenge for the PCs
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 16:10:50 +0000
Graht wrote:
> On 2/22/06, Peter Mellett <bulletraven@***********.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm having trouble in my SR4 game creating enough of a challenge for the
>> characters. Ideally I need them to be only just surviving 'boss' style
>> encounters however they seem to be able to totally annihilate anything I
>> send their way. Are there any general tips for challenging them more
>> without killing everyone 10 minutes into a session?
>>
>
> I gave up trying to run challenging combat encounters a long time ago.
> In my campaigns the almost all combats are there for fun, or for
> redirection (either the characters have a fair chance of winning, or
> they're running for their lives). That's not to say that all combat
> encounters in the player's favor are cakewalks.
>
> I challenge players with mysteries, puzzles, moral decisions, etc.
>
> Or, give the combat encounter a twist. For example, instead of having
> a straight up shoot out with the police, have the characters inside of
> a dark building when the overwhelming police show up outside and start
> making their way up the stairs and elevators in pairs to do a floor by
> floor search and the players have to make their way through to the
> basement where they can escape into the sewers, taking out any
> encountered police (or bad guys) quickly and efficiently and then get
> out of that area before they are swarmed.
>
> Or, have the combat encounter in an unforgiving environment (factories
> where all of the machines are turned on and operating, providing
> shifting cover, or a chemical factory where a stray shot could
> puncture a tank filled with who knows what).
>
> Non lethal weapons can provide a surprising challenge. Knock a
> character on his ass repeatedly with shotguns loaded with rubber
> pellets and see how he deals with it ;)
>
> And finally, mix a combat encounter with a task, like saving the
> maiden from the death trap while holding off the ninjas (yes it's
> cliche, but it's also a lot of fun).
>
>
> --
> -Graht
>
>
>
Thanks,

I usually include combat as a part of a mystery or whatever. I think I
might have been doing something wrong though when 6 ghouls couldn't even
close to melee range. The problem is I don't want to make the battles so
difficult that if they miss a single shot everyone dies, but converseley
I don't need it to be so easy that if they miss ALL their shots they
still live.

tis a conundrum, no doubt.
Message no. 4
From: wicker95@*****.com (John Wicker)
Subject: Creating a good challenge for the PCs
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 11:18:53 -0500
>
> I'm having trouble in my SR4 game creating enough of a challenge for the
> characters. Ideally I need them to be only just surviving 'boss' style
> encounters however they seem to be able to totally annihilate anything I
> send their way. Are there any general tips for challenging them more
> without killing everyone 10 minutes into a session?


It's important to consider the opposition you're throwing at your PCs, and
scale it accordingly. Your NPCs should be roughly on-par with your PCs, and
remember that if your PCs are loading APDS and grenades, the NPCs can do the
same.

Some combat won't present the same challenges. Facing off against 20 gang
members is going to feel very different than being cornered by a High Threat
Response team from LoneStar.

The PCs are basicly on their own in the world, but NPCs can always have
back-up on hand. Corp Security Guards are going to call in for additional
help if they have a situation. Gangers might have treaties with other gangs.
The police can always call in additional units or even the National Guard.
No matter how big your PCs are, there's always someone bigger.

Handle your NPCs as human beings and not just stats. Have them use the same
tactics (or even better tactics) that your PCs use. Have them duck behind
cover or drop prone. Set up ambushes. Work as a team and coordinate their
activites.

Remember situational modifiers. Sure, the sam might roll 12 dice to attack
someone, but once it's really dark and their target is behind half cover,
they probably rolling something more like 6 dice.

If the PCs are combat monsters, regularly put them in situations where they
can't succeed with combat. If they're carrying heavy weapons on the way to a
run, have them stopped by a HTR team backed up with a couple of choppers. If
they get the weapons to the run, make sure the guards are all wearing heavy
security armor due to an unrelated incident earlier in the day. Sometimes
guns jam, and sometimes they break. Ammo eventually runs out. If they try to
carry too much gear, slow them down and make sure that they have to ride
elevators in shifts due to the weight sensors being tripped.

The world is yours. Make it as difficult as you need to in order to get the
PCs in line. If they kill a guard, maybe that guard's brother is a
multi-initiated physad, and the guard was considered to be a little brother
by the rest of the brother's team of runners. Once you've gotten the PCs
scaled back down or under control, then ease up on the problems you hand
them. Make it clear to them that there are just some things you cannot do,
and if they refuse to believe you, prove it to them.

Hope this helps. Good luck!
Message no. 5
From: zebulingod@*****.com (Zebulin M)
Subject: Creating a good challenge for the PCs
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 11:19:24 -0800
On 2/22/06, Peter Mellett <bulletraven@***********.com> wrote:
>
> I'm having trouble in my SR4 game creating enough of a challenge for the
> characters. Ideally I need them to be only just surviving 'boss' style
> encounters however they seem to be able to totally annihilate anything I
> send their way. Are there any general tips for challenging them more
> without killing everyone 10 minutes into a session?
>
> Cheers,
> Pete
>
>
You know, I found a force six fire spirit was a pretty good fight for two
mages and a hacker the other night. It went on for several rounds before the
spirit missed a roll and the mage got lucky. It could have gone either way
at that point.

Zebulin
Message no. 6
From: bandwidthoracle@*******.net (bandwidthoracle)
Subject: Creating a good challenge for the PCs
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 12:32:09 -0700
Zebulin M wrote:
> On 2/22/06, Peter Mellett <bulletraven@***********.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm having trouble in my SR4 game creating enough of a challenge for the
>> characters. Ideally I need them to be only just surviving 'boss' style
>> encounters however they seem to be able to totally annihilate anything I
>> send their way. Are there any general tips for challenging them more
>> without killing everyone 10 minutes into a session?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Pete
>>
>>
>>
> You know, I found a force six fire spirit was a pretty good fight for two
> mages and a hacker the other night. It went on for several rounds before the
> spirit missed a roll and the mage got lucky. It could have gone either way
> at that point.
>
> Zebulin
>
>
I'm beginning to find combat challenges are very difficult for a mixed
team, would the fight have
been the same if one of the mages had been a sammy?
Message no. 7
From: zebulingod@*****.com (Zebulin M)
Subject: Creating a good challenge for the PCs
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 13:18:00 -0800
On 2/22/06, bandwidthoracle <bandwidthoracle@*******.net> wrote:
>
> Zebulin M wrote:
> >>
> > You know, I found a force six fire spirit was a pretty good fight for
> two
> > mages and a hacker the other night. It went on for several rounds before
> the
> > spirit missed a roll and the mage got lucky. It could have gone either
> way
> > at that point.
> >
> > Zebulin
> >
> >
> I'm beginning to find combat challenges are very difficult for a mixed
> team, would the fight have
> been the same if one of the mages had been a sammy?
>

Not sure. It might have changed some.

Zebulin
Message no. 8
From: run@***********.com (run@***********.com)
Subject: Creating a good challenge for the PCs
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 18:08:54 -0500
At 04:18 PM 2/22/2006, Zebulin M wrote:
>On 2/22/06, bandwidthoracle <bandwidthoracle@*******.net> wrote:
> >
> > Zebulin M wrote:
> > >>
> > > You know, I found a force six fire spirit was a pretty good fight for
> > two
> > > mages and a hacker the other night. It went on for several rounds before
> > the
> > > spirit missed a roll and the mage got lucky. It could have gone either
> > way
> > > at that point.
> > >
> > > Zebulin
> > >
> > >
> > I'm beginning to find combat challenges are very difficult for a mixed
> > team, would the fight have
> > been the same if one of the mages had been a sammy?
> >
>
>Not sure. It might have changed some.
>
>Zebulin


Bug Spirits and a shaman are usually a handful.
Message no. 9
From: zebulingod@*****.com (Zebulin M)
Subject: Creating a good challenge for the PCs
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 15:12:30 -0800
On 2/22/06, run@***********.com <run@***********.com> wrote:
>
>
> Bug Spirits and a shaman are usually a handful.
>
>
A conjuror with 6 Conjuring and a Force 6 spirit are deadly, enough. I
haven't used the bug spirits, yet. *egmg*

Zebulin
Message no. 10
From: reynardsurface@*****.com (Pace)
Subject: Creating a good challenge for the PCs
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 17:04:56 -0800
I always assume that anything a player will be willing to try, they will
succeed at. Therefore, I try to GM things so that success or failure
generally have little to do with dice, and a lot more to do with thinking
critically and paying attention. I avoid combat as much as possible,
especially with larger groups. Footsteps heard around a corner are generally
more exciting than a guard waving a gun in your face... and that ominous
shape in the shadows isn't always something you should be attacking.
Message no. 11
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Creating a good challenge for the PCs
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 11:19:37 +0100
According to Pace, on 23-2-06 02:04 the word on the street was...

> I always assume that anything a player will be willing to try, they will
> succeed at.

I'm not sure I agree with that reasoning -- you might as well throw all
game stats out the window and play a statless, diceless game in whatever
setting you like best. I can see some people liking this style of play,
but not me.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
In een nieuw seizoen gaan we alles anders doen.
-> Former NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UB+ P(+) L++ E W++(--) N o? K w-- O
M+ PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 12
From: reynardsurface@*****.com (Pace)
Subject: Creating a good challenge for the PCs
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 02:31:47 -0800
On 2/23/06, Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:I'm not sure I agree with that
reasoning -- you might as well throw all game stats out the window and play
a statless, diceless game in whatever setting you like best. I can see some
people liking this style of play, but not me.

That's a common response. My retort is generally that those stats define
what your character can do, and how well they do it. Those things are
important. When I say "anything a player will be willing to try", I mean
that a player's not likely to attempt something they're not very good at,
and over the spread of a team, there's liable to be someone with a "dice
solution" to most problems. The face characters not going to intim his way
through a social interaction if he's got a perfectly good (and much higher)
etiquette stat to schmooze with. The sheet and dice should guide the
roleplay and define skillsets, but a given situation shouldn't ever hinge on
a given dice roll.
Message no. 13
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Creating a good challenge for the PCs
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 07:17:57 -0800 (PST)
> That's a common response. My retort is generally that those stats
> define what your character can do, and how well they do it. Those
> things are important. When I say "anything a player will be willing
> to try", I mean that a player's not likely to attempt something
> they're not very good at, and over the spread of a team, there's
> liable to be someone with a "dice solution" to most problems. The
> face characters not going to intim his way through a social
> interaction if he's got a perfectly good (and much higher)
etiquette > stat to schmooze with. The sheet and dice should guide
the roleplay > and define skillsets, but a given situation shouldn't
ever hinge on > a given dice roll.

Warning: all game stat info is SR1/2/3-complient. SR4 complience not
available at this time.

I disagree with a number of points in this reponse.

1. Very often, the real rush in a gaming scenario is the situations
that PCs get into that are NOT their strength. The sammie, cut off
from his team, on the run, rounding a corner into the middle of an
impromptu gang meeting in an alley. Suddenly, the player is sweating
bullets, eyeing the Charisma of 2, and the realization that they are
going to have to default from Etiquette to their Intimidation of 3 to
talk their way out the situation. The beauty of the Shadowrun system
is that A: the player can actually try and talk their way out of the
situation, and B: the game hinges a wonderfully tense and challenging
scene in which combat is NOT the answer.

2. Have you ever committed a social blunder, despite your
communication skills? I consider myself very adept at verbal
interaction. But, sometimes the joke or anecdote that has always
broken the ice perfectly just happens to offend someone in the group.
Or they are having a bad day, and are just not in the mood. No
matter how good someone gets at something, there should always be
room for mistakes and bad luck. Hence, the dice. The face character
can still run afoul of foot-in-mouth disease, and there should be
some non-arbitrary way to simulate that. Random chance is a core,
and crucial IMO, element of gaming.

3. Do your combat monster always hit and kill when they shoot
something? Does your decker ever fail to sleeze by IC, or rob a
datastore blind without leaving a trace? Does the rigger ever find
themself in danger of crashing? If you run stats as mere guidelines
for roleplaying, and treat dice as somewhat anathema, then solving
challenges in your game becomes a matter of stacking your group with
the correct spead of specializations. Failure becomes either highly
improbable or completely arbitrary. That would make for some very
boring movies, and also some very boring games. Remember that the
PCs are opposed by numerous "specialists". Other runners, security
guards, etc... these NPCs also have stats to demonstrate a high
degree of proficiency in one or two areas. I doubt the players would
appreciate the cop spotting their carefully concealed weapons just
because he has a decent perception, high Police Procedural knowledge,
and the GM decided it was time for the police to mess with the PCs.

Succeeding against all odds, and failing in spite of the odds, are
part and parcel of a good game. Shadowrun is such a game. Running
it diceless (or even partially diceless) removes what I consider to
be a vital element of the experience. Your math obviously varies.

======Korishinzo
--sometimes it does all come down to a single ROLL... good
ROLEplayers will then react to the results of the ROLL accordingly

__________________________________________________
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Message no. 14
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Creating a good challenge for the PCs
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 16:36:05 +0100
According to Pace, on 23-2-06 11:31 the word on the street was...

> That's a common response.

I wonder why :)

> My retort is generally that those stats define
> what your character can do, and how well they do it.

Well, yes. That's the purpose of stats, after all -- except in a rare
few systems where you also get "negative" stats, which indicate things
you're bad at.

> Those things are
> important. When I say "anything a player will be willing to try", I mean
> that a player's not likely to attempt something they're not very good at,

You've obviously never played a game with me ;) I have a habit of trying
to push the limits of a game, at least if I'm not used to the system,
just to see how far I can go. I also have a habit of trying things my
character _should_ be good at, but isn't for some reason (either through
my own fault, for example by not actually having the requires skill, or
because of faulty rules that make me think my character should be good
at it).

> and over the spread of a team, there's liable to be someone with a "dice
> solution" to most problems.

This is why you want a mixed team. That's not something I would consider
a deficiency in game rules, though, as it's the same IRL: if you have to
outfit a house with all the door frames, plumbing, cabling, etc. you
don't bring five electricians and nobody else.

> The face characters not going to intim his way
> through a social interaction if he's got a perfectly good (and much higher)
> etiquette stat to schmooze with. The sheet and dice should guide the
> roleplay and define skillsets, but a given situation shouldn't ever hinge on
> a given dice roll.

I agree that dice rolls aren't everything, but I disagree that this
means you shouldn't use dice rolls at all. Like Kori says, things can go
wrong outside of what the character can actually influence. Just because
the character has Running at 6 doesn't mean he will never step on a
loose piece of pavement. Of course you can add this kind of color as the
GM without rolling dice for it, but then it becomes arbitrary: "Hmm ...
things are getting a bit dull. I know, Joe will twist his ankle with
this running he's doing."

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
In een nieuw seizoen gaan we alles anders doen.
-> Former NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UB+ P(+) L++ E W++(--) N o? K w-- O
M+ PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 15
From: reynardsurface@*****.com (Pace)
Subject: Creating a good challenge for the PCs
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 08:00:36 -0800
On 2/23/06, Ice Heart <korishinzo@*****.com> wrote:
>
> Succeeding against all odds, and failing in spite of the odds, are
> part and parcel of a good game. Shadowrun is such a game. Running
> it diceless (or even partially diceless) removes what I consider to
> be a vital element of the experience. Your math obviously varies.
>

Perhaps I'm just thinking of things from a different angle, as I don't come
from a traditional TT background. I agree with you here, and throughout your
mail, in most situations. I will say that after the fourth or fifth GM to
"challenge" me by throwing in, say, a mechanical lock and pointing at SOTA's
lockpicking skill to fluster my B&E character, It starts being gimmicky.
It's very easy to see what skills someone doesn't have, and fabricate a
challenge to bring it to light. But in general, I feel that the most
memorable shadowruns are the ones you barely squeak through, or the ones you
fail altogether (from a player standpoint). I do think that the random
element has a role to play, for sure. My initial statement was intended to
reflect that as a GM, when I'm prepping a scene/run/plot/arc, I tend to
assume that, one way or another, any dice-based challenges I place will be
overcome, or circumvented. If, in the course of play, the players fail at a
given test, then it's handled in game, but it doesn't preclude progression,
nor break the story. It just means their route has changed.

I'm rambling, and not saying much, really. I don't cut the random element
out of my games entirely, but at the same time, if it's just a game of
stats, then why bother with thematics at all (which is the shining
buddy-jesus-thumbsup-exellent part of SR)? I've had players walk into the
home ground of a phenomenally powerful toxic free spirit, carrying in their
pocket the means for subduing it instantly (an object of great value/meaning
to it), and without batting an eye break out their dice and attack. Now,
I've built some pretty high powered characters in my time, but there's not
many with which I would punch a 9/5 free spirit in the face, random chance
or no. So there are situations where the longshot is inappropriate, and will
never yield a benefit.
Message no. 16
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Creating a good challenge for the PCs
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 17:18:28 +0100
According to Pace, on 23-2-06 17:00 the word on the street was...

> It's very easy to see what skills someone doesn't have, and fabricate a
> challenge to bring it to light.

That's an example of not very good GMing, IMHO. What I tend to do is
make the situation more or less realistic, and then (if desirable) tweak
it so it won't be _too_ easy for the PCs. But if the PCs have a skill or
trick that they would, under normal circumstances, be able to use with
almost guaranteed success rate, let them. For example, my old group we
used to steal lots of cars, and had a rating 6 maglock passkey and
sequencer used mainly for this purpose. Pitted against the rating 2
typical car lock, it's an easy bet who usually won. Still, I, as a GM,
didn't see the need to increase the locks' ratings just to make stealing
a car tougher. Instead, if you want to challenge them, tweak the
situation: cops hot on their heels, see if they _then_ want to spend the
time to steal a car, or prefer to try and lose them on foot in dark alleys.

> I'm rambling, and not saying much, really. I don't cut the random element
> out of my games entirely, but at the same time, if it's just a game of
> stats, then why bother with thematics at all (which is the shining
> buddy-jesus-thumbsup-exellent part of SR)?

Ever played a truly archetypical dungeon bash? That's almost purely
stat-driven, and usually not much fun after the first few monsters.
Especially if you use a combat system with very few options, for example
AD&D's.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
In een nieuw seizoen gaan we alles anders doen.
-> Former NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UB+ P(+) L++ E W++(--) N o? K w-- O
M+ PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 17
From: reynardsurface@*****.com (Pace)
Subject: Creating a good challenge for the PCs
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 08:20:57 -0800
On 2/23/06, Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:

> Well, yes. That's the purpose of stats, after all -- except in a rare
> few systems where you also get "negative" stats, which indicate things
> you're bad at.


Exactly. They define your aptitude/ability metrics. there's more to a
/character/ than that... isn't there? surely your motivation for running the
shadows isn't "to raise assault rifles to 7"... right?

You've obviously never played a game with me ;) I have a habit of trying
> to push the limits of a game, at least if I'm not used to the system,
> just to see how far I can go. I also have a habit of trying things my
> character _should_ be good at, but isn't for some reason (either through
> my own fault, for example by not actually having the requires skill, or
> because of faulty rules that make me think my character should be good
> at it).


I'm actually the same way. I loved putting my charisma 1, +10TN to social
skill test cybernetic monstrosity of an ork into delicate social situations,
but on the one occassion in which he succeeded, I certainly wasn't expecting
it to happen.

This is why you want a mixed team. That's not something I would consider
> a deficiency in game rules, though, as it's the same IRL: if you have to
> outfit a house with all the door frames, plumbing, cabling, etc. you
> don't bring five electricians and nobody else.


Mixed teams are a good thing. I'm just saying if you have a fully staffed
team, someone generally is going to be able to handle a given situation
handily. This is not a bad thing. It's actually, as you say, the reason for
teams.

I agree that dice rolls aren't everything, but I disagree that this
> means you shouldn't use dice rolls at all. Like Kori says, things can go
> wrong outside of what the character can actually influence. Just because
> the character has Running at 6 doesn't mean he will never step on a
> loose piece of pavement. Of course you can add this kind of color as the
> GM without rolling dice for it, but then it becomes arbitrary: "Hmm ...
> things are getting a bit dull. I know, Joe will twist his ankle with
> this running he's doing."


No, I don't think the GM should ever arbitrarily impose penalties like
that. But I'd much rather have the GM tell my agoraphobic rigger/decker that
in order to get his team out, he's going to have to get out of the van, and
walk through the crowded plaza than hear him say, "All right. Roll
willpower"




--
> Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
> In een nieuw seizoen gaan we alles anders doen.
> -> Former NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
> -> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-
>
> GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UB+ P(+) L++ E W++(--) N o? K w-- O
> M+ PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D G+ e h! !r y?
> Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
>
Message no. 18
From: reynardsurface@*****.com (Pace)
Subject: Creating a good challenge for the PCs
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 08:23:03 -0800
On 2/23/06, Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:

> That's an example of not very good GMing, IMHO.

agreed

Ever played a truly archetypical dungeon bash? That's almost purely
> stat-driven, and usually not much fun after the first few monsters.
> Especially if you use a combat system with very few options, for example
> AD&D's.


I think you're now officially supporting my POV here.
Message no. 19
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Creating a good challenge for the PCs
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 08:45:19 -0800 (PST)
> No, I don't think the GM should ever arbitrarily impose penalties
> like
> that. But I'd much rather have the GM tell my agoraphobic
> rigger/decker that
> in order to get his team out, he's going to have to get out of the
> van, and
> walk through the crowded plaza than hear him say, "All right. Roll
> willpower"

Your GM should SAY, "Wheels realizes that he is going to have to
leave the comfortable confines of his van and cross the buslting
open-air courtyard."

That MEANS, "roll Willpower".

I think you are confusing in and out of character aspects of gaming.

You don't say to the guy playing a consumate Face, "roll
negotiations". You say, "he glances over at you, a speculative gleam
in his eye even as his face collapses into an anguished expression.
'5 grand?!' he exclaims. 'You will ruin me, and I still have to pay
your fuel and lodging expenses!'" And you hope that they reply with
something equally creative and roleplaying-oriented.

Never the less, you mean "roll negotiations". If you think they are
doing well on the roleplaying side, you adjust their TN down, or the
NPC's TN up (or alter dice pools if you are playing some *cough*
other version of the game). In the end, the dice represent the
randomness, and the roleplaying reflects the outcome of the dice. In
addition to often influencing the dice/TN one rolls to begin with.

Sure, I don't have a Face character roll etiquette every time they
talk to anyone on the street. Or a sammie roll for every shot she
takes while playing paintball with her local gang contacts. Or have
the decker roll to login and check their email. Not always.
Sometimes I do. Because it gets the player's attention. It is a
glorious red herring. "What? Roll Computers?! But, I am just
recording a new AV message on our blind data drop! Oh drek, enemy
deckers, IC, ghost in the machine... ahhhh! Oh, wait, I succeeded?
*pant pant*"

Dice are integral to the game. Lose them, and you will lose your
player's trust. Randomness cuts both ways, and maintains the
illusion that the GM is not controlling the game, only serving as its
referee.

======Korishinzo
--as always, IMO of course

__________________________________________________
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Message no. 20
From: graht1@*****.com (Graht)
Subject: Creating a good challenge for the PCs
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 09:57:15 -0700
On 2/23/06, Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
> According to Pace, on 23-2-06 17:00 the word on the street was...
>
> > It's very easy to see what skills someone doesn't have, and fabricate a
> > challenge to bring it to light.
>
> That's an example of not very good GMing, IMHO. What I tend to do is
> make the situation more or less realistic, and then (if desirable) tweak
> it so it won't be _too_ easy for the PCs. But if the PCs have a skill or
> trick that they would, under normal circumstances, be able to use with
> almost guaranteed success rate, let them. For example, my old group we
> used to steal lots of cars, and had a rating 6 maglock passkey and
> sequencer used mainly for this purpose. Pitted against the rating 2
> typical car lock, it's an easy bet who usually won. Still, I, as a GM,
> didn't see the need to increase the locks' ratings just to make stealing
> a car tougher. Instead, if you want to challenge them, tweak the
> situation: cops hot on their heels, see if they _then_ want to spend the
> time to steal a car, or prefer to try and lose them on foot in dark alleys.

Heh. And, the gang that had been happily and discreetly stealing cars
in that neighborhood are now pissed at the characters because they are
a) horning in on their business and b) over stealing and drawing to
much heat.

The PCs now have two consequences: the police and the gang. Oh yeah,
and the rich corporate VP that owned the classic car that was passed
down from his grandfather that the characters stole and sold to a chop
shop. He's really, really pissed and has managed to redirect one of
the corp's black ops teams.

Of course the gang, the police detective and his partner, and the
black ops team all find the PCs at the same time and all hell breaks
loose <egmg>.

--
-Graht
Message no. 21
From: graht1@*****.com (Graht)
Subject: Creating a good challenge for the PCs
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 10:12:12 -0700
Here's another way to make combat more challenging: add in other factors.

The PCs round the corner to find three security guards. Easy.

The PCs round the corner of the dark hallway to find three security
guards. Probably still easy but the perception modifier will make
things a little harder.

The PCs round the corner of the dark hallway and are seen by three
security guards at the distant intersection. One of the guards takes
off running towards the nearest panic button, and is now out of view
of the characters, while the other two duck into the side hallways and
start firing from cover. I rate this one as challenging because the
PCs have the perception mod and the cover mod to deal with and they
will probably have to close through gunfire in order to counter the
guards cover mod and catch up to the running guard.

The PCs are spotted while making their way across the auto factory
floor. A stray bullet from the guard activates production line. The
characters have to play a game of cat and mouse with the
reinforcements in an environment of moving robotic arms, heavy
machinery, conveyors, and changing lighting conditions. Toss in a
couple of punctured steam pipes or severed electrical cables during
the course of the combat to add environmental threats and increasing
perception mods. This one can be deadly because in addition to the
guards' bullets the PCs may have to avoid being hit/caught by
unfinished cars and car parts and the machines that are manhandling
them.

--
-Graht
Message no. 22
From: lrdslvrhnd@*****.com (Kevin McB)
Subject: Creating a good challenge for the PCs
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 12:49:14 -0500
On 2/23/06, Pace <reynardsurface@*****.com> wrote:
>
> On 2/23/06, Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
>
> > Well, yes. That's the purpose of stats, after all -- except in a rare
> > few systems where you also get "negative" stats, which indicate things
> > you're bad at.
>
>
> Exactly. They define your aptitude/ability metrics. there's more to a
> /character/ than that... isn't there? surely your motivation for running
> the
> shadows isn't "to raise assault rifles to 7"... right?
>
> You've obviously never played a game with me ;) I have a habit of trying
> > to push the limits of a game, at least if I'm not used to the system,
> > just to see how far I can go. I also have a habit of trying things my
> > character _should_ be good at, but isn't for some reason (either through
> > my own fault, for example by not actually having the requires skill, or
> > because of faulty rules that make me think my character should be good
> > at it).
>
>
> I'm actually the same way. I loved putting my charisma 1, +10TN to social
> skill test cybernetic monstrosity of an ork into delicate social
> situations,
> but on the one occassion in which he succeeded, I certainly wasn't
> expecting
> it to happen.
>
> This is why you want a mixed team. That's not something I would consider
> > a deficiency in game rules, though, as it's the same IRL: if you have to
> > outfit a house with all the door frames, plumbing, cabling, etc. you
> > don't bring five electricians and nobody else.
>
>
> Mixed teams are a good thing. I'm just saying if you have a fully staffed
> team, someone generally is going to be able to handle a given situation
> handily. This is not a bad thing. It's actually, as you say, the reason
> for
> teams.
>
> I agree that dice rolls aren't everything, but I disagree that this
> > means you shouldn't use dice rolls at all. Like Kori says, things can go
> > wrong outside of what the character can actually influence. Just because
> > the character has Running at 6 doesn't mean he will never step on a
> > loose piece of pavement. Of course you can add this kind of color as the
> > GM without rolling dice for it, but then it becomes arbitrary: "Hmm ...
> > things are getting a bit dull. I know, Joe will twist his ankle with
> > this running he's doing."
>
>
> No, I don't think the GM should ever arbitrarily impose penalties like
> that. But I'd much rather have the GM tell my agoraphobic rigger/decker
> that
> in order to get his team out, he's going to have to get out of the van,
> and
> walk through the crowded plaza than hear him say, "All right. Roll
> willpower"


Then how would you decide whether or not your character actually does that?
Just say he does?

I had this shaman, for all intents and purposes he was hydrophobic. One
mission involved going out into the Pacific and diving. When it came time
for my character to jump in... I rolled dice, then worded my actions
accordingly. Roll, success: "After a few deep breaths, I open my eyes,
keeping them raised above the horizon as I walk to the back of the boat."
Roll, success, barely: "I shakily make my way onto the dive platform."
Roll, failure: "Just as I step on it, I look down and freak out, collapsing
and grabbing onto the railing." Now, it would've been entirely in character
for this guy to work up the nerve, then simply charge the opening and jump
before he had a chance to think about it and change my mind. In fact, my GM
didn't call for any rolls at all and was willing to let me do just that...
*I* decided that this would be more dramatic and fun. Instead of overcoming
his phobia, however briefly... he panics and has to be thrown in by the
troll. He was "willing to try", had lots of dice to throw at the task,
however... he did not succeed at it.

In another game, I had a knife-fighting mage, whose spells were pretty much
purely defensive (barriers, etc) or enhancing (increased reflexes, increased
skill, etc) - no real offensive spells like Mana Bolt or such at all. In
melee combat, he was GOOD, had a couple of spells and skills that helped him
out in other ways... but no ranging whatsoever. He left that up to the guys
with guns and the shaman; he was all about getting right up close. Which
was fine and dandy, until he found himself in a situation where he couldn't
get to another 'runner, who was about to splatter a comrade with a rifle, in
time to stop him. Solution: Grab the pistol from a nearby dead security
guard, and lob a few bullets. Having never picked up a gun in his life, he
was certainly "attempting something he's not very good at." It sounds to me
like you'd just rule that a failure, other than possibly the gunfire getting
him to duck, or the comrade to duck (which, actually, was all I was
expecting out of it myself); in fact, through sheer luck of the roll I
managed to wing him rather nicely; surprised, he whirled around, slipped,
and his gun went flying over the railing and the guy ran off. Obviously,
the guard had been shot by him, but managed to heroically get a shot of his
own in before dying; then the other guy absconded with whatever it was we
were there to steal (and which he was there to steal as well) and the cops
had a nice blood sample and a ballistics-matching rifle to follow instead of
us. Simply because my character attempted something he wasn't very good at
in the slightest.

Yet another time, one of my characters was trying to climb a wall. He had
Athletics (Climbing) at 3 (5), and was climbing up a rope sent up w/ a
grappling hook. It wasn't a brick wall, great for traction, even at a bit
of an angle so it wasn't straight up. High skill, fairly easy task. Nearly
impossible to fail at, as only one success was required. Sounds to me like
you would've just had him do it. Instead... I manage to invoke the dreaded
Rule of One, my character falls and twists his ankle. Rest of the job, he's
hoping like hell nobody else screws up so he doesn't have to try running.

Anyhoo... rolling dice does not mean you're not roleplaying; roleplaying
doesn't mean you don't have to roll dice.

Kevin
Message no. 23
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Creating a good challenge for the PCs
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 19:16:35 +0100
According to Pace, on 23-2-06 17:23 the word on the street was...

> I think you're now officially supporting my POV here.

Yes and no. I support you about certain aspects of what you're saying,
but disagree with you on others :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
In een nieuw seizoen gaan we alles anders doen.
-> Former NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UB+ P(+) L++ E W++(--) N o? K w-- O
M+ PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 24
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Creating a good challenge for the PCs
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 19:22:28 +0100
According to Graht, on 23-2-06 17:57 the word on the street was...

> Heh. And, the gang that had been happily and discreetly stealing cars
> in that neighborhood are now pissed at the characters

A very good possibility, just not for this group because they stole cars
to use them, not to sell them -- that was mostly because the previous GM
tended to destroy whatever vehicle we were using in order to make our
lives more complicated (this was really a version of Pace's lock
example, BTW). So we soon decided not to risk our own vehicles anymore,
and just steal one when we needed to.

But yes, Graht's idea would work well under slightly different
circumstances :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
In een nieuw seizoen gaan we alles anders doen.
-> Former NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UB+ P(+) L++ E W++(--) N o? K w-- O
M+ PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 25
From: swiftone@********.org (Brett Sanger)
Subject: Creating a good challenge for the PCs
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 13:20:01 -0500
On Thu, Feb 23, 2006 at 12:49:14PM -0500, Kevin McB wrote:
> I had this shaman, for all intents and purposes he was hydrophobic. One

"Dude, aren't you forgetting something?"
"Like what?"
"Like your character's paralyzing fear of water, perhaps?"
"Oh, right...."
(Character) "Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh!"

*chuckles* I love that movie. Greatest Gamer Gift _ever_.

--
SwiftOne / Brett Sanger
swiftone@********.org
Message no. 26
From: jgilmour@*****.com (Jonathan and Jamie Gilmour)
Subject: Creating a good challenge for the PCs
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 10:19:16 -0500
What movie is that?

On 3/2/06, Brett Sanger <swiftone@********.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 23, 2006 at 12:49:14PM -0500, Kevin McB wrote:
> > I had this shaman, for all intents and purposes he was hydrophobic. One
>
> "Dude, aren't you forgetting something?"
> "Like what?"
> "Like your character's paralyzing fear of water, perhaps?"
> "Oh, right...."
> (Character) "Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh!"
>
> *chuckles* I love that movie. Greatest Gamer Gift _ever_.
>
> --
> SwiftOne / Brett Sanger
> swiftone@********.org
>
Message no. 27
From: swiftone@********.org (Brett Sanger)
Subject: Creating a good challenge for the PCs
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 14:09:05 -0500
On Sat, Mar 04, 2006 at 10:19:16AM -0500, Jonathan and Jamie Gilmour wrote:
> What movie is that?

Gamers. It's a nifty little tale of a D&D-like group, part in
character, part out of character. They poke fun at all-too-typical
situations and reactions in a very quotable fashion. I look forward to
their next movie coming out sometime this year.

Preview:
http://gamers.deadgentlemen.com/media/gamers480.mov

DVD:
http://store.deadgentlemen.com/customer/home.php

I don't recommend their other movies (Dead Camper Lake, etc) unless you
decide to be a hardcore fan, as they target a different sense of humor.

--
SwiftOne / Brett Sanger
swiftone@********.org

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