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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Steven Hadfield)
Subject: Credstick forgery
Date: Thu May 23 04:30:00 2002
> And all Jack 'Runner has to do is pay a decker to
> change the password etc
> and Joe Citizen gets lost in the system. Jack
> 'Runner gets an identity that
> will pass muster virtually anywhere (although he has
> to think about
> resigning from the job he's been doing at Shiawase
> for the past 20 years)
> Joe Citizen looses everything.
> I'd post my credstick rules if I could find them.
>
Quoting from what I remember of the Neo-Anarchist's
guide to real life, there are very few deckers who are
capable of messing with peoples SIN. It's a very
involved process, requiring hacking a large number of
VERY secure systems. The prices given for buying fake
SIN's assume that the SIN's are produced by a major
decker community, such as the Denver data haven.
Chucking 2k Nuyen at a local wannabe decker should
either get a fake SIN that not worth having, or a
brainfried wannabe decker ;)

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Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Daniel Powell)
Subject: Credstick forgery
Date: Thu May 23 08:40:01 2002
> > And all Jack 'Runner has to do is pay a decker to
> > change the password etc
> > and Joe Citizen gets lost in the system. Jack
> > 'Runner gets an identity that
> > will pass muster virtually anywhere (although he has
> > to think about
> > resigning from the job he's been doing at Shiawase
> > for the past 20 years)
> > Joe Citizen looses everything.
> > I'd post my credstick rules if I could find them.

Man, that's the most illogical progression of humanity I could imagine. An
entire system that just shrugs and says "oh, you lost the keys to your
house... well, I guess who ever finds them gets your house then...". That
is not a realistic way to run credsticks.

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Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Credstick forgery
Date: Thu May 23 11:10:01 2002
>From: "Daniel Powell" <l0_jak@*******.com>
>Man, that's the most illogical progression of humanity I could imagine. An
>entire system that just shrugs and says "oh, you lost the keys to your
>house... well, I guess who ever finds them gets your house then...". That
>is not a realistic way to run credsticks.

But that's half the point IMHO, the SIN system is so wrapped up in red tape
that that is the way things work! otherwise the only people who didn't have
SINs would be those who'd made a careful effort to delete themselves.
It's a paradox, everything becomes more centralised so that fewer things
slip through the net, fewer illegal immigrants manage to live their lives
out without being noticed, fewer people cheat on their taxes, fewer people
commit benefit fraud...etc but they've become so heavily centralised that
individuals get lost, the SIN system is for society's benefit; what does
"society" care that in a city of (what is it? 1.7 million SINers?) one
forgets his security details? "It's his own fault, I remember mine."
Without a SIN you can't use banks, you can't have a job, you can't (legally)
own a vehicle, or property. Clever 'runners, who've had to learn to think in
certain ways, use methods similar to those used by organised crime
syndicates to launder money in order to do these things, either that or they
go to individuals who deal across the boundary.
Normally if a SINer loses his credstick there will be back-up systems in
place, he can report it stolen or lost and have a new one sent out to him.
But how does the system identify him? By his SIN? how many people on the
list use phone banking? how many of you can remember all of the details you
have to put in? I'm not thinking about the security stuff, just the account
number, sort code etc. and just because you know your account number doesn't
give you access. If someone hacked the phone banking system and changed your
passcode you wouldn't be able to access your account. In the same way as you
wouldn't be able to get into your house. Now if someone stole your bank
details (or your house keys) you wouldn't be able to access your money and
they would (or they'd be able to get into your house) Now add the final
stage, if they're willing to pretend to be you who (that matters) is going
to know the difference? Joe Citizen is still happily in the system and the
person who still thinks of himself as Joe Citizen (although the System
doesn't recognise him) is seen as Johnny Mad, one of those poor SINless
slobs who's obviously high on something.
As to progression Shadowrun tends to be based on a progression of Corporate
"society" look at the "Personnel" department, Personnel suggests that
it
deals with People yes? What does Human Resources suggest? that's in maybe 10
years, what will it be in 60 more?

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Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: Credstick forgery
Date: Thu May 23 12:50:02 2002
ra002585@***.unicamp.br

> >From: "Daniel Powell" <l0_jak@*******.com>
> >Man, that's the most illogical progression of humanity I could imagine. An
> >entire system that just shrugs and says "oh, you lost the keys to your
> >house... well, I guess who ever finds them gets your house then...". That
> >is not a realistic way to run credsticks.
>
> But that's half the point IMHO, the SIN system is so wrapped up in red tape
> that that is the way things work! otherwise the only people who didn't have
> SINs would be those who'd made a careful effort to delete themselves.

Most of the people who don't have SINs ate those poor souls who never got
to register when they were born. "Normal" society would be only barely
aware of their existance. The rest are those who had themselves carefully
deleted.

Now, if someone has had a SIN and operated in normal society for several
decades, he's bound to know quite a lot of trusted citizens who can vouch
for him in case his ID gets lost.
> Normally if a SINer loses his credstick there will be back-up systems in
> place, he can report it stolen or lost and have a new one sent out to him.
> But how does the system identify him? By his SIN? how many people on the
> list use phone banking? how many of you can remember all of the details you
> have to put in?

I'm sure they at least have some provisions for that. Since a SIN is so
important (it's not only your bank account, it's _everything_), Joe
Citizen will do his damned best to remember the code. It helps that he has
only two numbers to remember (his SIN and his password).

Also, even if Joe Citizen only has a standard credstick, his biometric
data and DNA are still stored in the government's database. He carries his
main means of identification with him at all times. All he has to do is
get to the bank before the thief can tamper with the credstick (which
takes a reasonably long time).

--
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http://www.shadowland.com.br
-- Redator da RPG em Revista
http://www.rpgemrevista.f2s.com
ICQ # 4055455
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Credstick forgery
Date: Fri May 24 04:05:03 2002
>From: Bira <ra002585@**.unicamp.br>
>Now, if someone has had a SIN and operated in normal society for several
>decades, he's bound to know quite a lot of trusted citizens who can vouch
>for him in case his ID gets lost.

But they're people, and no matter how trusted they are (unless they're
President or DDI of the CIA or something) the system doesn't care about
them. People don't matter, no matter how many you have. Again it's a
paradox, the "worlds greatest democracy" without democracy.

>Also, even if Joe Citizen only has a standard credstick, his biometric
>data and DNA are still stored in the government's database. He carries his
>main means of identification with him at all times. All he has to do is
>get to the bank before the thief can tamper with the credstick (which
>takes a reasonably long time).

Yeah, but how many banks are going to be able to do a full DNA sequencing in
time? how many days? maybe even weeks is it going to take to get the wheels
of beurocracy turning? They wouldn't turn for all of the people in Redmond
after the crash why would they turn any quicker for one unimportant Joe
Citizen?

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Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Credstick forgery
Date: Fri May 24 05:30:01 2002
According to Bira, on Thu, 23 May 2002 the word on the street was...

> Most of the people who don't have SINs ate those poor souls who never got
> to register when they were born.

LOL! Yeah, I suppose a lot of that does go on in the Barrens ;)

--
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Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Credstick forgery
Date: Fri May 24 05:30:04 2002
According to Lone Eagle, on Fri, 24 May 2002 the word on the street was...

> Yeah, but how many banks are going to be able to do a full DNA sequencing
> in time? how many days? maybe even weeks is it going to take to get the
> wheels of beurocracy turning?

You're overestimating this by a large margin, because, if you look at page
239 of SR3, you'll see that a cellular scan is one of the methods of IDing
the bearer of an ebony credstick. I don't think it would take a couple of
days for the test to come back if people pay with these sticks regularly.
I'm not saying that you need to have a DNA scan made every time you pay for
a packet of bubble gum with an ebody credstick, but if you have one, I
assume it's because you need to spend the amounts of money it can hold
every so often.

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Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Credstick forgery
Date: Fri May 24 06:15:01 2002
>From: Gurth <Gurth@******.nl>
>You're overestimating this by a large margin, because, if you look at >page
>239 of SR3, you'll see that a cellular scan is one of the methods of >IDing
>the bearer of an ebony credstick. I don't think it would take a couple >of
>days for the test to come back if people pay with these sticks >regularly.
>I'm not saying that you need to have a DNA scan made every time you >pay
>for
>a packet of bubble gum with an ebody credstick, but if you have one, I
>assume it's because you need to spend the amounts of money it can hold
>every so often.

The DNA scan (which I'm assuming wouldn't be a full sequencing, just a
search for certain combinations of base pairs) won't take long, although
it's probably still going to be an hour or so (but then if you were to go
into a Mercedes dealership they'd supply you with coffee and such while you
wait for the credit check).
The thing that will take the time is when a person with a standard rating
has to request one, several questionaires, each interspersed with
computerised checks, interogation of the FBI, IRS, CIA, NSA etc d'bases. I
don't think a couple of days is unreasonable. Beurocracy is slow to move.

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Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: Credstick forgery
Date: Fri May 24 11:55:00 2002
On Fri, 24 May 2002 08:03:57 +0000
"Lone Eagle" <loneeagle2061@*******.com> wrote:

> >From: Bira <ra002585@**.unicamp.br>
> >Now, if someone has had a SIN and operated in normal society for several
> >decades, he's bound to know quite a lot of trusted citizens who can vouch
> >for him in case his ID gets lost.
>
> But they're people, and no matter how trusted they are (unless they're
> President or DDI of the CIA or something) the system doesn't care about
> them. People don't matter, no matter how many you have. Again it's a
> paradox, the "worlds greatest democracy" without democracy.

A "trusted citizen", in this case, is someone whose identity can be
proven beyond any doubt, and who'll be known by a reasonable amount of
people. Positive identification by this method would probably take long
to produce results, since it would involve a lot of signed documents and
statements. However, I suspect the SIN in question is going to be
"suspended" while investigation takes place - after all, anyone could
use the stolen SIN to get himself into flight school and ram a plane
into the World Trade Center...

> >Also, even if Joe Citizen only has a standard credstick, his biometric
> >data and DNA are still stored in the government's database. He carries his
> >main means of identification with him at all times. All he has to do is
> >get to the bank before the thief can tamper with the credstick (which
> >takes a reasonably long time).
>
> Yeah, but how many banks are going to be able to do a full DNA sequencing in
> time? how many days?

In 2060? Any bank can probably do it in about five minutes, on site. And
before Joe Citizen needs to do a DNA test, he has the option of testing
his fingerprints, voice or retina, which are nearly instantaneous.



--
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http://www.shadowlandbr.hpg.com.br
Redator de Shadowrun da RPG em Revista
http://www.rpgemrevista.f2s.com
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: Credstick forgery
Date: Fri May 24 11:55:12 2002
On Fri, 24 May 2002 11:20:21 +0200
Gurth <Gurth@******.nl> wrote:

> According to Bira, on Thu, 23 May 2002 the word on the street was...
>
> > Most of the people who don't have SINs ate those poor souls who never got
> > to register when they were born.
>
> LOL! Yeah, I suppose a lot of that does go on in the Barrens ;)

Oops, typo :).

--
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http://www.shadowlandbr.hpg.com.br
Redator de Shadowrun da RPG em Revista
http://www.rpgemrevista.f2s.com
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: Credstick forgery
Date: Fri May 24 11:55:34 2002
On Fri, 24 May 2002 10:13:31 +0000
"Lone Eagle" <loneeagle2061@*******.com> wrote:

>
> The DNA scan (which I'm assuming wouldn't be a full sequencing, just a
> search for certain combinations of base pairs) won't take long, although
> it's probably still going to be an hour or so (but then if you were to go
> into a Mercedes dealership they'd supply you with coffee and such while you
> wait for the credit check).
> The thing that will take the time is when a person with a standard rating
> has to request one, several questionaires, each interspersed with
> computerised checks, interogation of the FBI, IRS, CIA, NSA etc d'bases. I
> don't think a couple of days is unreasonable. Beurocracy is slow to move.

I don't think it takes any more time for a regular person to complete
the scan, because they technically only need to do it in emergency
situations (such as when their credstick is stolen).

Even if you go with the view of a monolithic System that does not care
about the individual, you still have to consider that the people who did
the stealing are criminals who are certainly up to no good, and they
better be stopped before they can go on with their evil schemes.

--
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http://www.shadowlandbr.hpg.com.br
Redator de Shadowrun da RPG em Revista
http://www.rpgemrevista.f2s.com
Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Da Twink Daddy)
Subject: Credstick forgery
Date: Fri May 24 17:35:01 2002
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gurth" <Gurth@******.nl>


According to Lone Eagle, on Fri, 24 May 2002 the word on the street was...

>> Yeah, but how many banks are going to be able to do a full DNA
sequencing
>> in time?

>You're overestimating this by a large margin, because, if you look at page
>239 of SR3, you'll see that a cellular scan is one of the methods of IDing
>the bearer of an ebony credstick.

Well, in SR3 there are poratable simsence players, capable of changing
digital signature in freakin' emotions. Even if DNA testing takes weeks
now, that time is going to be significantly shortened. IMO, Full gene
sequencing isn't done each time, probably only the most "volitile" genes in
the populous. Since we are >90% genetically indistinguishable from apes,
that cuts down the work that needs to be done by quite a bit, probably
enough that it would only take 5-10 mins. to go though the whole system
(Blood -> Data -> Verifcation -> Back). If a full gene sequencing is done,
multiply that time by 10-100, about 1-16 hours.

And heck, unless you've told you bank you WANT to have to go though higher
levels of ID EVERY time you make a purchase, they only require the passcode
for stuff you could've done with a plastic stick, fingerprint for stuff you
could do with a silver stick, etc.

Da Twink Daddy
datwinkdaddy@*******.com
ICQ# 514984

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