Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	"J.W.Thomas" <cm5323@***.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Credsticks
Date:	Wed, 8 Feb 1995 14:09:44 +0000

Message no. 1 Forwarded message:
From n9475426 Wed Feb 8 13:23:21 1995
Message-Id: <m0rcCMa-0003tqC@****.wlv.ac.uk>
From: n9475426 (J.S.Webster)
Subject: Re: Credsticks
To: cm5323@****.wlv.ac.uk (J.W.Thomas)
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 13:23:18 +0000 (GMT)
In-Reply-To: <m0rc8U0-0003tiC@****.wlv.ac.uk> from "J.W.Thomas" at Feb 8,
95 09:14:44 am
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On Tue, 7 Feb 1995 00:47:46 +0930 Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Was replying to my bankjob post
>
> > <CHOPPER> You use it to autherise your transactions, yes?
> > So it holds all your BAnk PIN numbers and stuff, as well as your
> No... it holds _part_ of a key to a database that holds that information.
> The other part of the key you have to provide, in the form of some sort of
> verification performed by the credstick reader you are using. This can be a
> short code (ie, a PIN), to anything up to a genetic analysis. For more
> information, check out NAGRL. The complexity of the test is dependent on
> the size of the transaction.

GrIfTeR StEpS iN

Which IS ON THE STICK. the stick holds enough data to tell
someone where you live, what you look like etc. Some peaple put
there keycodes on them. All locked away by the
code/fingerprint/retinal scan it takes to activate the stick...

BUT if you record the stick from a shop terminal it has just
given you all the details it takes to acsess the bank account.

>
> > And when you authorise a transaction by terminal, the chip gives
> > the shop/whatever your bank ID and authorisation for a sum of
> > money to be transfered
>
> Yeah... right. And the bank computer then yells back asking for
> verification. And guess what? That database where all that personal, hard
> to forge info is where? At the bank. :)
So? if your working from a shop term, the fool stickowner has
just given the nessasary authorisation to clear a 'payment'. you
just record this verification (code/finger/retina) as its sent
out to the bank and the sticks security is lost.
> > >
> > > Certified credsticks just have a chip with the value of the things on it.
> > > They're transported blank, so stealing them is a bit useless. Also,
> > > changing the data on them most be damn near impossible, or such
> > > counterfeiting would be rampant.
> > <CHOPPER>as rampant as credit fraud today?
> > You don't change it, you PROGRAM IT, as the chip is BLANK
> But they don't HAVE all the programs you need. And credsticks are a far
> more secure scheme than credit cards.
They're still open to abuse. Creditcard fraud is something like
3 billion/year NOW. even if credsticks cut this by 50% its still
over a billion dollars. And anything you can invent, someone
else can invent the countermeasure to.
>
> *sigh* look, if you couldn't change the amount on them, they wouldn't be
> any more usefull than coins and notes, and a damn sight more inconvienent.
So you CAN alter the amount on a certified credstick
so whats to stop you hacking one and adding an extra few zeros?
each credstick type has a maximum value it can hold, but no
restrictions on who can use it or how many times it works
...so you just keep running the
1,000 =Y= stick to the limit then paying it into bank accounts
> You can't have it both ways, Chopper. Either the chips are useless to you,
> and therefore lightly guarded if at all, or they are very valuable to you,
> and to the corps, and so they are heavily guarded. Moral of the story:
> If it's easy to do, then there probably isn't much point in doing it.
NO NO NO... what Chopper was saying is that the CHIPS are like
banknote paper.hard to get, but useless unless you know what to
do with it, so its not as secure as a CASH shipment.

> > This DOES happen now, with crooked shops taking your credit
> > card, copying the signiture and details and using them to buy
> > stuff.
>
> Any secure system will have a time-dependent algorithim as a key, with at
> least part of the algorithim stored in a place where you can't get it.
like where? anywhere someone can get to on a regular basis to
authorise a transaction can't have heavy security.
You see, you have to balance security and ease-of-use.
Imagine you had a Timelocked Vault door on your bathroom...
Very secure, yes?
Completely useless, as you can't get in without hours waiting.

And how can you use a time dependant algorithm anyway? does the
stick owner memorise it? <NO> does it get stored on the stick
<easy to crack it and copy it> or is it in the bank? <useless>
>
<Fron the Cornflake killer>
> I like the idea though.
> But all serious loads of money are seldom transported by road.
> Because the things you described are likely to happen then.
> The usual mode of transportation is by air, in case of huge amount of
> credit.
ThE GrIfTeR SpEaKs
what your after isn't the CASH, as thats just numbers in a
program. what your after is the blank chips they use to make the
'sticks, as then you can forge sticks
(assuming they use special chips, like banknote paper)
>
GRIFTER
Ancestor of the Mountain Bike

From:	Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Credsticks
Date:	Thu, 9 Feb 1995 00:50:27 +0930

Message no. 2 >
> GrIfTeR StEpS iN
>
> Which IS ON THE STICK. the stick holds enough data to tell
> someone where you live, what you look like etc. Some peaple put
> there keycodes on them. All locked away by the
> code/fingerprint/retinal scan it takes to activate the stick...
>
> BUT if you record the stick from a shop terminal it has just
> given you all the details it takes to acsess the bank account.
>
No... You don't understand the system. It goes like this:

The credstick has on it part of a time-dependant algorithim, keyed by a
random number. What this means is that each time it gets activated, the
code it sends to the database to prove that it is YOUR credstick changes.

Without the credstick, you can't do diddly to a person's account without
hacking the bank. If you get the credstick, THEN you can try things like
you mentioned. But, at the minimum, there is a code which can be changed.

Actually, I've no idea if this is how it is done. But this is how it COULD
be done. And it's totally secure, even if the details of the algorithim are
known. Like I said before, the US military uses this kind of tech for ultra
secure real time communications.

> So? if your working from a shop term, the fool stickowner has
> just given the nessasary authorisation to clear a 'payment'. you
> just record this verification (code/finger/retina) as its sent
> out to the bank and the sticks security is lost.

You still need the stick. If the sarariaman who loses the stick doesn't
change the code, then he/she is a fool.

> They're still open to abuse. Creditcard fraud is something like
> 3 billion/year NOW. even if credsticks cut this by 50% its still
> over a billion dollars. And anything you can invent, someone
> else can invent the countermeasure to.

Why??

> >
> > *sigh* look, if you couldn't change the amount on them, they wouldn't be
> > any more usefull than coins and notes, and a damn sight more inconvienent.
> So you CAN alter the amount on a certified credstick
> so whats to stop you hacking one and adding an extra few zeros?
> each credstick type has a maximum value it can hold, but no
> restrictions on who can use it or how many times it works
> ...so you just keep running the
> 1,000 =Y= stick to the limit then paying it into bank accounts

Possible... except that a bank is going to notice it if you keep doing this
kind of thing. Also, if you give certified credsticks serial numbers (quite
feasible), then a check through the logs will turn up rampant abuse of
things like this.

> > You can't have it both ways, Chopper. Either the chips are useless to you,
> > and therefore lightly guarded if at all, or they are very valuable to you,
> > and to the corps, and so they are heavily guarded. Moral of the story:
> > If it's easy to do, then there probably isn't much point in doing it.
> NO NO NO... what Chopper was saying is that the CHIPS are like
> banknote paper.hard to get, but useless unless you know what to
> do with it, so its not as secure as a CASH shipment.
>
I don't know how you Americans do it, but here in Australia, our bank notes
are extruded from the plastic at the mint... And for the two remaining
paper notes, the paper is held just as close to the chest as the cash is.
(But we won't have those for long, anyway)

> > > This DOES happen now, with crooked shops taking your credit
> > > card, copying the signiture and details and using them to buy
> > > stuff.
> >
> > Any secure system will have a time-dependent algorithim as a key, with at
> > least part of the algorithim stored in a place where you can't get it.
> like where? anywhere someone can get to on a regular basis to
> authorise a transaction can't have heavy security.
> You see, you have to balance security and ease-of-use.
> Imagine you had a Timelocked Vault door on your bathroom...
> Very secure, yes?
> Completely useless, as you can't get in without hours waiting.
>
> And how can you use a time dependant algorithm anyway? does the
> stick owner memorise it? <NO> does it get stored on the stick
> <easy to crack it and copy it> or is it in the bank? <useless>

That's not what time-dependant algorithims are... A time dependant
algorithim is a simple algorithim that takes the time as an input, and
returns a result dependant on this time. It's not like a time-lock, you can
always use it, you just get different results. Furthermore, it can have a
random input, which is unique to each card. Follow so far?

Now, both the bank and the credstick probably store a copy of the
algorithim. At the very least, the bank needs a copy. The credstick could
store only the random part, and download the algorithim, or anything in
between. When the credstick sends in its answer, it's compared to the
result the bank gets for the same time. Simple, no?

Now... you could crack open the stick to get it. But to do so, you'll need
the stick. Now, if you've got the stick, the owner doesn't. So the owner is
going to change the code, and get a new stick, making yours useless, and
probably sending out alerts if you try to use it.

> >
> <Fron the Cornflake killer>
> > I like the idea though.
> > But all serious loads of money are seldom transported by road.
> > Because the things you described are likely to happen then.
> > The usual mode of transportation is by air, in case of huge amount of
> > credit.
> ThE GrIfTeR SpEaKs
> what your after isn't the CASH, as thats just numbers in a
> program. what your after is the blank chips they use to make the
> 'sticks, as then you can forge sticks

You still need to hack the bank, though, to set up that side of things.
This isn't a one-way op.

To use creditcard fraud as an example, you can't just send in a random
number and a signature, you have to have an account at the cred firm.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.

From:	Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Credsticks
Date:	Wed, 8 Feb 1995 10:26:19 -0500

Message no. 3 On Wed, 8 Feb 1995, J.W.Thomas wrote:

> > > <CHOPPER> You use it to autherise your transactions, yes?
> > > So it holds all your BAnk PIN numbers and stuff, as well as your

> > No... it holds _part_ of a key to a database that holds that information.
> > The other part of the key you have to provide, in the form of some sort of
> > verification performed by the credstick reader you are using. This can be a
> > short code (ie, a PIN), to anything up to a genetic analysis. For more
> > information, check out NAGRL. The complexity of the test is dependent on
> > the size of the transaction.

> Which IS ON THE STICK

No, it's not. Your PIN is not recorded anywhere on your ATM
card. It's buried in the secure data that the bank keeps to itself. All
the number is is a way to access the account information. But the point
is that it's nowhere near the stick, as that would be a hopelessly
pointless kind of security.

> the stick holds enough data to tell someone where you live, what
> you look like etc. Some peaple put there keycodes on them.

That would be stupid. It would be directly analogous to writing
your PIN on the back of your ATM card. Not too secure.

> BUT if you record the stick from a shop terminal it has just
> given you all the details it takes to acsess the bank account.

No, probably not. It will record a record of the transaction,
but I would think that the manufacturers of stick-readers would have
given in to public pressure and *not* designed them to record the
security measures. That would make fraud *way* too easy.

> So? if your working from a shop term, the fool stickowner has
> just given the nessasary authorisation to clear a 'payment'. you
> just record this verification (code/finger/retina) as its sent
> out to the bank and the sticks security is lost.

No, no, no. The only time this would work is for if the
shopkeeper had somehow modified the stick-reader to record that code,
which is probably illegal (not that that's ever stopped us). But the
point remains that this would only work for the smallest transactions
(those requiring only a personal ID number). It's all well and fine to
have a guy's thumb print/retina print/DNA scan on file, but how can you
use them? Some can be used, sure (retinal modification), but these
measures are expensive and far from foolproof. And even if you
know somebody's DNA scan, how are you gonna fake it when the Rolls Royce
dealer asks you for a blood sample to verify the transaction? You're not.

> They're still open to abuse. Creditcard fraud is something like
> 3 billion/year NOW. even if credsticks cut this by 50% its still
> over a billion dollars. And anything you can invent, someone
> else can invent the countermeasure to.

True, but you reach a point of diminishing returns, where it's so
damn expensive to commit the fraud that you're actually losing money at
it. Lack of profitability is a surprisingly effective deterrant.

> > > This DOES happen now, with crooked shops taking your credit
> > > card, copying the signiture and details and using them to buy
> > > stuff.

See above. I think this would only work for the smallest types
of transactions. It would also be easy to catch the culprits as all of
the victims would have purchases at this particular store in common.

> > Any secure system will have a time-dependent algorithim as a key, with at
> > least part of the algorithim stored in a place where you can't get it.
> like where? anywhere someone can get to on a regular basis to
> authorise a transaction can't have heavy security.
> You see, you have to balance security and ease-of-use.
> Imagine you had a Timelocked Vault door on your bathroom...
> Very secure, yes?
> Completely useless, as you can't get in without hours waiting.

Like at the friggin' bank. Think of your passcodes as the
passwords to an Access IC. Access IX is pretty fragging secure, and it
will be extremely difficult for a decker to get into those accounts.
It's not like a time-vault bathroom at all. It's more like a 1024 bit
PGP key. Plenty secure and not too much of a pain-in-the-ass.

Marc

From:	"Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject:	Credsticks
Date:	Tue, 2 Jan 1996 16:38:32 +0100

Message no. 4 Zaeki@***.com said on 1 Jan 96...

> I don't have many other books, outside of the main SRII rule book (I have
> Grimoire, FOF, Cybertech). I haven't been able to find much on Credsticks
> (ie., prices, or lack thereof). If anyone has any info on these, please
> reply. I've had to improvise on most credstick rules.

Buy the Neo-Anarchists' Guide To Real Life (NAGRL) next time you get an SR
book. It's got a lot of useful stuff about the SR world, including an
entire chapter talking about credsticks, and game rules for forging them
and detecting forgeries.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Let's get nautical, ladies!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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From:	SCROSE <scrose@****.COM>
Subject:	Credsticks
Date:	Fri, 6 Mar 1998 15:06:34 -0600

Message no. 5 Gurth wrote:
>
>
> BTW, in my game certified credsticks are for a fixed amount of money --
> you can put anything you want onto them, but once they're made you can
> only write off the whole amount at once, and you can't add to it. Sort of
> like giving someone a $100 note: you can't pay $1 with it unless you get
> change.

I like this idea it works well with one of my personal rules your SIN a
piece of plastic sort of like the so called smart cards.

From:	Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Credsticks
Date:	Fri, 6 Mar 1998 16:25:44 -0500

Message no. 6 On Fri, Mar 06, 1998 at 03:06:34PM -0600, SCROSE wrote:
> Gurth wrote:
> >
> >
> > BTW, in my game certified credsticks are for a fixed amount of money --
> > you can put anything you want onto them, but once they're made you can
> > only write off the whole amount at once, and you can't add to it. Sort of
> > like giving someone a $100 note: you can't pay $1 with it unless you get
> > change.
>
> I like this idea it works well with one of my personal rules your SIN a
> piece of plastic sort of like the so called smart cards.

That is scary, considering FSU uses those (*&) things. :)
I think smartcards is kinda an oxymoronic term. Hope the tech (or
the burecrats) has improved a bunch by 2050.
I see the SIN (as well as other stuff) being encoded in your personal
cred stick. The cred stick also carries your medical history, licenses
etc. (I think I got alot of this stuff from Shadowfiles and LS, however
all most all place books mention something about travel visas, SINs, etc)
The cred stick is usually the size of a pen or large marker.
So when your paying a decker to create the sin, what he's actually
doing is inserting fake info into various databases, and then encoding
a certain about of info onto a blank stick. Depending on the rating
of the stick, is how "authenticate" it is, and how hard someone will
have to search to realize its fake.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Uh-Oh Toto, it doesn't look like we're gods anymore."

From:	NEWSHADOW <NEWSHADOW@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Credsticks
Date:	Fri, 6 Mar 1998 16:38:59 EST

Message no. 7 In a message dated 98-03-06 16:25:44 EST, you write:

> > BTW, in my game certified credsticks are for a fixed amount of money --
> > you can put anything you want onto them, but once they're made you can
> > only write off the whole amount at once, and you can't add to it. Sort of
> > like giving someone a $100 note: you can't pay $1 with it unless you get
> > change.

IMC a credstick is used like a portable ATM card. You plug it into another
credstick and you set how much of the balance on the stick is transferred onto
the recieving stick. This way a credstick with $100 can pay as little as they
want.

SHADOW
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arena/6852/

From:	James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject:	Re: Credsticks
Date:	Sat, 7 Mar 1998 02:45:32 GMT

Message no. 8 On Fri, 6 Mar 1998 16:38:59 EST, NEWSHADOW wrote:

> In a message dated 98-03-06 16:25:44 EST, you write:
>
> > > BTW, in my game certified credsticks are for a fixed amount of money --
> > > you can put anything you want onto them, but once they're made you can
> > > only write off the whole amount at once, and you can't add to it. Sort of
> > > like giving someone a $100 note: you can't pay $1 with it unless you get
> > > change.
>
> IMC a credstick is used like a portable ATM card. You plug it into another
> credstick and you set how much of the balance on the stick is transferred onto
> the recieving stick. This way a credstick with $100 can pay as little as they
> want.

Are you talking about credsticks, or "certified credsticks"? If it is the
former, you are quoting Shadowrun canon. But if not...

IMHO, a certified credstick should work like a certified cheque-- a lump
sum that can either be deposited into a bank account or signed over to
someone else like any other cheque. This method wouldn't inconvenience
people with valid SINs, while preventing abuse by those that don't (ie:
SINless, underground black markets, shadowrunners, etc.). Additionally, if
you were allowed to siphon off small amounts of cash from it, the credstick
would no longer be "certified".

If you could treat a /certified/ credstick as a portable ATM (ie: you could
add or subtract from the funds), no one would need valid credsticks. This
would encourage even more "illegal" money transactions. The government
wants their taxes, and banks are heavily influenced by the government.

I know that these opinions make it harder to be SINless in shadowrun, but I
honestly believe the government would want it this way. If it is less of
an inconvenience to have a SIN (they would be freely acquired, IMC), the
government can be assured of keeping track of its citizens and collecting
necessary taxes. Just MHO.

James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";
ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

Mano au mano, the "Professor"
would kick MacGyver's ass.

From:	NEWSHADOW <NEWSHADOW@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Credsticks
Date:	Sat, 7 Mar 1998 02:27:28 EST

Message no. 9 In a message dated 98-03-06 21:45:50 EST, you write:

>If you could treat a /certified/ credstick as a portable ATM (ie: you could
>add or subtract from the funds), no one would need valid credsticks.

The only real benefit for having a valid credstick is that it basically
contains your entire life record on it such as drivers license, credit cards
and pass port. The certified 'stick is for the shadowy types because most the
time they don't have this nice background.

SHADOW

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Credsticks
Date:	Sat, 7 Mar 1998 12:36:47 +0100

Message no. 10 NEWSHADOW said on 16:38/ 6 Mar 98...

> IMC a credstick is used like a portable ATM card. You plug it into another
> credstick

Which neatly brings us into one of the haziest areas of all when it comes
to SR: how the hell are credsticks actually used to transfer money from
one person to the next? Sure, if you're at a store they'll have a nice
credstick reader into which you insert the stick and type your PIN (or
whatever), after which the money gets transferred to the store's account.

But what if you go out and buy some groceries for your roommate? The
roommate somehow will want/need/have to pay you for them, so do you go to
an ATM, insert both credsticks, and type in how much must be transferred
from stick A to stick B? Just plugging two credsticks into one another
doesn't sound very plausible, because it would be much too sensitive too
fraud, IMO -- you could plug a computer into your credstick and tell the
stick it just received X nuyen from a certified credstick. Your money
problems would be gone forever...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
I want to see the ground give way, I want to watch it all go down.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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From:	Jason Hyatt <jhyatt@******.NET>
Subject:	Re: Credsticks
Date:	Sat, 7 Mar 1998 08:51:03 -0500

Message no. 11 > IMC a credstick is used like a portable ATM card. You plug it into
another
> credstick

Well according to NAGRL (83) you can only connect any credstick
together for direct transfer, but only certified credsticks will
transfer the money directly. Standard versions copy the passcodes and
info then wait till you get to an access system to initiate transfer.

Think of it this way a standard credstick is your drivers license,
health card, birth certificate, social sec. number, and ATM card all
rolled into one plus some. A certified stick is the same as the phone
cards that come with $XX you can use and everytime you make a call the
phone writes to the card and tells it you have $xx-.25 dollars left.

From:	NEWSHADOW <NEWSHADOW@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Credsticks
Date:	Sat, 7 Mar 1998 10:50:42 EST

Message no. 12 In a message dated 98-03-07 08:47:39 EST, you write:

>Think of it this way a standard credstick is your drivers license,
>health card, birth certificate, social sec. number, and ATM card all
>rolled into one plus some. A certified stick is the same as the phone
>cards that come with $XX you can use and everytime you make a call the
>phone writes to the card and tells it you have $xx-.25 dollars left.

I would have to agree with you. That is how I usually play it. All of my
players are SINless when they begin, so the certified is what they use when
they get paid by Johnsons and it is what they use to pay their Fixers and
various other contacts. The way I have pictured a certified credstick looking
like is penlike with a point at one end and an opening at the other end. This
would be how they connect.

A valid credstick would probably have higher security on it. That's one of
the things that makes it much more desirable to have.

SHADOW
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arena/6852/

From:	Jason Hyatt <jhyatt@******.NET>
Subject:	Re: Credsticks
Date:	Sat, 7 Mar 1998 11:22:54 -0500

Message no. 13 >A valid credstick would probably have higher security on it. That's
one of
>the things that makes it much more desirable to have.

Part of it is that the certified stick is no different then modern
day cash. If it is stolen or lost then you who ever has it has full
access. But the standard credstick requires differing levels of
security based on the rating of the stick.

Didn't they try something like this in Europe and I think they
were going to try it here in Canada too. They called it Norton it was
a so called smartcard that was run by the ATM companies and the phone
company, The card it self was suppose to carry the cash in an
electronic form when you paid for something the money would be removed
from your card along with an ID tag that would tell which card it came
from, you could put the card into the slot in the phone call a number
and transfer from your bank account into the card or vice versa. and
you could do the same at the ATMs. they also said that the card came
with the ability to lock the cash with a code number. unlocked cards
would work like certified credsticks and locked cards would work like
a standard version. the also sold a calculator sized unit that you
could place two cards into and transfer money.

From:	Stefan <casanova@******.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject:	Re: Credsticks
Date:	Sat, 7 Mar 1998 17:33:58 +0000

Message no. 14 > Didn't they try something like this in Europe and I think they
> were going to try it here in Canada too. They called it Norton it was
> a so called smartcard that was run by the ATM companies and the phone
> company, The card it self was suppose to carry the cash in an
> electronic form when you paid for something the money would be removed
> from your card along with an ID tag that would tell which card it came
> from, you could put the card into the slot in the phone call a number
> and transfer from your bank account into the card or vice versa. and
> you could do the same at the ATMs. they also said that the card came
> with the ability to lock the cash with a code number. unlocked cards
> would work like certified credsticks and locked cards would work like
> a standard version. the also sold a calculator sized unit that you
> could place two cards into and transfer money.

Well am not sure that it is this that you mean but in parts of Sweden
they are trying something called Cash cards at the moment ... It is a
plastic card with a chip that you can "load" with money at certain
loading stations and in banks, and it is supposed to be used for
buying smaller (cheaper) things ... You can't as far as I know
transfer money from one card to the next or anything like that, but
you can use a scanning device to read how much money the card
contains, the limit is 1500 SEK (£150) but I guess that is more like
a security feature cause if you loose it ... your money are gone ..

I personally don't have one since I carry cash with me anyway so for
me it is just no point in it.

The security of it I can't say much about cause I don't know anybody
that has made a public analysis of it and the banks aren't likely to
tell you. But the security as it appears to be is the limit in cash
on the card and that you have a pin code you enter to allow the
transfer from your card to the stores machine.

/Stefan
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Frag you and the datastream you came on!" - Sinjin the decker
------------------------------------------------------------------------
... E-Mail .............................. casanova@***.passagen.se ...
... HomePage .............................. http://hsl.home.ml.org ...
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Credsticks
Date:	Sat, 7 Mar 1998 12:46:09 -0500

Message no. 15 >>> BTW, in my game certified credsticks are for a fixed amount of money --

> IMC a credstick is used like a portable ATM card. You plug it into another

Quite some time ago (like 1992), I wrote up a kind of technical spec for
credsticks. It's on Paolo's site (although the e-mail address on it is
woefully out of date. The URL:

http://www.interware.it/users/paolo/sr2/society/credstik.html

This artcile is also in the NAGEE.

Pages 81-83 of the Guide to Real Life also discuss credsticks at length. I
can't remember if I wrote my article before or after this came out.

Wordman

From:	SCROSE <scrose@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Credsticks
Date:	Sat, 7 Mar 1998 12:53:19 -0600

Message no. 16 Lehlan Decker wrote:
>
> On Fri, Mar 06, 1998 at 03:06:34PM -0600, SCROSE wrote:
> > Gurth wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > BTW, in my game certified credsticks are for a fixed amount of money --
> > > you can put anything you want onto them, but once they're made you can
> > > only write off the whole amount at once, and you can't add to it. Sort of
> > > like giving someone a $100 note: you can't pay $1 with it unless you get
> > > change.
> >
> > I like this idea it works well with one of my personal rules your SIN a
> > piece of plastic sort of like the so called smart cards.
>
> That is scary, considering FSU uses those (*&) things. :)
> I think smartcards is kinda an oxymoronic term. Hope the tech (or
> the burecrats) has improved a bunch by 2050.

A credstick is just more like a 21st century debit card. Your SIN is
separate the way I did. In the same way a credit/debit card is a form of
ID it is not your only ID. Most of the time the info in the SIN is on a
credstick, OTOH I created non monetary SINS they look the same but have
no credit/banking information on them as such. Along the lines of the
"Not a license to drive" state issued ID in current use. It's a SIN it
proves who you are and that's all. Looks like a credstick but doesn't do
anything at all other than carry your SIN info. These are the ones
swatters and other homeless get for medical treatment and other social
services.
Just my twist on the credstick/SIN things.

From:	SCROSE <scrose@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Credsticks
Date:	Sat, 7 Mar 1998 12:59:33 -0600

Message no. 17 NEWSHADOW wrote:
>
> In a message dated 98-03-06 16:25:44 EST, you write:
>
> > > BTW, in my game certified credsticks are for a fixed amount of money --
> > > you can put anything you want onto them, but once they're made you can
> > > only write off the whole amount at once, and you can't add to it. Sort of
> > > like giving someone a $100 note: you can't pay $1 with it unless you get
> > > change.
>
> IMC a credstick is used like a portable ATM card. You plug it into another
> credstick and you set how much of the balance on the stick is transferred onto
> the recieving stick. This way a credstick with $100 can pay as little as they
> want.

That's a normal credstick not a certified one. If I understand how Gurth
intends them to used and it's an idea I like. It's like a certified
check a set amount that has to be deposited into another account to be
used. Have you ever tried to cash a certified check and/or money order
at somewhere other than a bank good luck. The funds are there but many
places will not accept them.

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Credsticks
Date:	Sun, 8 Mar 1998 12:16:23 +0100

Message no. 18 Jason Hyatt said on 11:22/ 7 Mar 98...

> Didn't they try something like this in Europe
[snip]
> The card it self was suppose to carry the cash in an electronic form
> when you paid for something the money would be removed from your card
> along with an ID tag that would tell which card it came from, you could
> put the card into the slot in the phone call a number and transfer from
> your bank account into the card or vice versa.

They didn't just try it in Europe, in this country we have the fun of
having two different systems that aren't compatible (mainly because we
have two groups of banks, each with its own system). Both are similar,
though, in that they're chip cards that you "charge" with money and can
the pay with without the need for typing in codes. I've got one, but I
haven't used it (mainly because I can't remember the code I need to charge
the thing :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
I want to see the ground give way, I want to watch it all go down.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Credsticks
Date:	Sun, 8 Mar 1998 12:16:23 +0100

Message no. 19 SCROSE said on 12:59/ 7 Mar 98...

> That's a normal credstick not a certified one. If I understand how Gurth
> intends them to used and it's an idea I like. It's like a certified
> check a set amount that has to be deposited into another account to be
> used.

Either that, or you give it to someone else to whom you want to pay the
amount that happens to be on the credstick. (The recipient could also give
you change, of course, either as cash, by transferring it to your own
credstick, or by giving you one or more certified credsticks in return.)

I think the easiest way to view certified credsticks in my campaign is to
see them as bank notes -- you can't tear one in half and pay with that,
you always have to give up the whole note to pay for something.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
I want to see the ground give way, I want to watch it all go down.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

From:	James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject:	Re: Credsticks
Date:	Mon, 9 Mar 1998 02:37:49 GMT

Message no. 20 On Sat, 7 Mar 1998 02:27:28 EST, NEWSHADOW wrote:

> In a message dated 98-03-06 21:45:50 EST, you write:
>
> >If you could treat a /certified/ credstick as a portable ATM (ie: you could
> >add or subtract from the funds), no one would need valid credsticks.
>
> The only real benefit for having a valid credstick is that it basically
> contains your entire life record on it such as drivers license, credit cards
> and pass port. The certified 'stick is for the shadowy types because most the
> time they don't have this nice background.

Unless you are disagreeing with my previous post (quoted above), you seem
to be saying that /certified/ credsticks *can* add and subtract funds from
them. If this were true, FASA's use of the term "certified credstick" is
*very* inappropriate. Apples and oranges.

This idea tends to unravel since the term "certified" is used today by
banks to signify a cheque whose value is confirmed as genuine. If you
could add or subtract funds to its "certified" value, it would no longer be
"certified" (kinda like altering the written amount on a certified cheque--
even if it was OK with the issuer).

And I see no reason why banks would make "certified credsticks" as you
describe such an easy end-run around using a true credstick. In essence,
the banks would be indirectly supporting SINless, bogus, or illegal
lifestyles. If you have a SIN and are partaking in legal activities, you
could simply deposit the entire amount of the certified credstick into the
account on your normal credstick. There would be no disadvantages and the
UCAS government gets to keep track of monies floating around for taxation
purposes.

James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";
ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

Mano au mano, the "Professor"
would kick MacGyver's ass.

From:	Jason Hyatt <jhyatt@******.NET>
Subject:	Re: Credsticks
Date:	Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:05:34 -0500

Message no. 21 >And I see no reason why banks would make "certified credsticks" as
you
>describe such an easy end-run around using a true credstick. In
essence,
>the banks would be indirectly supporting SINless, bogus, or illegal
>lifestyles. If you have a SIN and are partaking in legal activities,
you
>could simply deposit the entire amount of the certified credstick
into the
>account on your normal credstick. There would be no disadvantages
and the
>UCAS government gets to keep track of monies floating around for
taxation
>purposes.

They would still need certified credsticks for transactions on
small scale. You could pay the paper boy or anything like that with
your standard credstick, You would find him carrying the 12,000¥
(NAGRL 103) unit around with to each house for payment. Also it is
said in NAGRL that all sticks now come with both functions (83 shadow
comment).

There is no way you can get away from having the anonymity of cash
so the banks would have to adapt the credstick concept to this,
creating the certified credstick. Which is nothing better then you
smartcard for the payphone it stores the amount that you transferred
into it. Like going to the bank and getting a $20 from the ATM in its
own way its "certified" the value is guaranteed and the availability
is guaranteed.

From:	James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject:	Re: Credsticks
Date:	Mon, 9 Mar 1998 07:05:42 GMT

Message no. 22 On Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:05:34 -0500, Jason Hyatt wrote:

> >And I see no reason why banks would make "certified credsticks" as
> >you describe such an easy end-run around using a true credstick. In
> >essence, the banks would be indirectly supporting SINless, bogus, or
> >illegal lifestyles. If you have a SIN and are partaking in legal
> >activities, you could simply deposit the entire amount of the
> >certified credstick into the account on your normal credstick. There
> >would be no disadvantages and the UCAS government gets to keep track
> >of monies floating around for taxation purposes.
>
> They would still need certified credsticks for transactions on
> small scale. You could pay the paper boy or anything like that with
> your standard credstick, You would find him carrying the 12,000¥
> (NAGRL 103) unit around with to each house for payment. Also it is
> said in NAGRL that all sticks now come with both functions (83 shadow
> comment).

Said paperboy wouldn't collect door-to-door, just like our newspaper
carrier doesn't today in modern Vancouver. It's all done with VISA or
Mastercard, or by sending a cheque directly to the newspaper accounting
office. Burger King has accepted credit cards for years here (and most
fast food places use debit cards as well). Even some telephones today
accept credit cards. We are slowly moving away from cash. The only thing
*I* use cash for now is the occasional trip to 7-Eleven or perhaps a cafe
mocha at the local Starbuck's.

> There is no way you can get away from having the anonymity of cash
> so the banks would have to adapt the credstick concept to this,
> creating the certified credstick. Which is nothing better then you
> smartcard for the payphone it stores the amount that you transferred
> into it. Like going to the bank and getting a $20 from the ATM in its
> own way its "certified" the value is guaranteed and the availability
> is guaranteed.

I guess we are just in disagreement then with regards to how certified
credsticks function. I agree with Gurth 100%, in that certified credsticks
function exactly like certified cheques (ie: all or nothing). At the very
least, I could also view them as the equivalent as modern Phone Cards (ie:
get them "certified as to containing a certain amount of funds, and be able
to withdraw from that amount bit-by-bit).

But when you say that you can both easily subtract *and* add funds to a
certified credstick just like a regular credstick, I must draw the line.
If this were the case, there would be no real difference between a
certified credstick and a normal credstick. Granted, the latter also
contains your SIN and other personal info, but this information is also
duplicated in many databases around the world.

On one hand you have a legal citizen with a SIN and a standard credstick.
He possesses a portable ATM in the form of a credstick, which he can easily
and legally add or subtract from. Possessing a SIN, he also pays his fair
share of taxes.

On the other hand you have a SINless individual with your version of a
certified credstick. He too possesses a portable ATM in the form of a
credstick, which he can easily and legally add or subtract from. But this
individual is unknown in the eyes of the government, and therefore pays no
taxes.

Do you see the abuse of the system? Personally, I don't believe a
government would allow a bank to develop certified credstick technology
that allowed this kind of abuse so easily. After all, using a normal
credstick isn't any more inconvenient for legal citizens, so why create
this loophole that promotes tax evasion (or other such crimes related to
concealing money transactions from the government)?

James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";
ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

Mano au mano, the "Professor"
would kick MacGyver's ass.

From:	Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject:	Re: Credsticks
Date:	Mon, 9 Mar 1998 07:57:29 -0500

Message no. 23 > From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
> Date: Monday, March 09, 1998 2:05 AM

> On Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:05:34 -0500, Jason Hyatt wrote:

<Big ol' Snip>

> Do you see the abuse of the system? Personally, I don't believe a
> government would allow a bank to develop certified credstick technology
> that allowed this kind of abuse so easily. After all, using a normal
> credstick isn't any more inconvenient for legal citizens, so why create
> this loophole that promotes tax evasion (or other such crimes related to
> concealing money transactions from the government)?

I think there is a misinterpretation here. Think if credsticks as money
holders. A credstick with electronic NY on it is basically the equivalent
of cash on a stick. If I withdraw 20 dollars from my bank and put it in my
pocket, it's the same as withdrawing money from my bank account and putting
it on a certified credstick. They serve the same purpose.

If certified cred were a loophole in the system, then so is allowing
someone to withdraw cash from a bank today. This perception is inaccurate.
People still have to report their money. If a business takes in money, it
must still report it, regardless of the venue (cash, credit, check, etc.).
Sure, there's always room for dishonesty here....but that's no different
from today.

Credsticks are very simple in SR. I like it that way. I can easily relate
them to current-day transactions with cash, because they serve the same
purpose. The only real difference is that the money is electrons, not
paper.

> James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia

Justin

From:	SCROSE <scrose@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Credsticks
Date:	Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:48:31 -0600

Message no. 24 James Lindsay wrote:

<snip>
> Said paperboy wouldn't collect door-to-door, just like our newspaper
> carrier doesn't today in modern Vancouver. It's all done with VISA or
> Mastercard, or by sending a cheque directly to the newspaper accounting
> office. Burger King has accepted credit cards for years here (and most
> fast food places use debit cards as well). Even some telephones today
> accept credit cards. We are slowly moving away from cash. The only thing
> *I* use cash for now is the occasional trip to 7-Eleven or perhaps a cafe
> mocha at the local Starbuck's.

I personally don't even use cash at 7-Eleven I use a Credit/debit Card
with too. :)
As you stated in the states things are moving away from cash.

> > There is no way you can get away from having the anonymity of cash
> > so the banks would have to adapt the credstick concept to this,
> > creating the certified credstick. Which is nothing better then you
> > smartcard for the payphone it stores the amount that you transferred
> > into it. Like going to the bank and getting a $20 from the ATM in its
> > own way its "certified" the value is guaranteed and the availability
> > is guaranteed.

I've just introduced certified credsticks for as small as 10¥ and as
high as you want to go.

<snip>

> Do you see the abuse of the system? Personally, I don't believe a
> government would allow a bank to develop certified credstick technology
> that allowed this kind of abuse so easily. After all, using a normal
> credstick isn't any more inconvenient for legal citizens, so why create
> this loophole that promotes tax evasion (or other such crimes related to
> concealing money transactions from the government)?

This I agree with 100%

From:	James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject:	Re: Credsticks
Date:	Tue, 10 Mar 1998 08:34:49 GMT

Message no. 25 On Mon, 9 Mar 1998 07:57:29 -0500, Justin Pinnow wrote:

> > From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
> > Date: Monday, March 09, 1998 2:05 AM
>
> > On Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:05:34 -0500, Jason Hyatt wrote:
>
> <Big ol' Snip>
>
> > Do you see the abuse of the system? Personally, I don't believe a
> > government would allow a bank to develop certified credstick technology
> > that allowed this kind of abuse so easily. After all, using a normal
> > credstick isn't any more inconvenient for legal citizens, so why create
> > this loophole that promotes tax evasion (or other such crimes related to
> > concealing money transactions from the government)?
>
> I think there is a misinterpretation here.

Maybe, but I'd still like to here your's (and others') answer to the
situation quoted above :)

> Think if credsticks as money holders.

Ok.

> A credstick with electronic NY on it is basically the equivalent
> of cash on a stick.

Ok.

> If I withdraw 20 dollars from my bank and put it in my
> pocket, it's the same as withdrawing money from my bank account and putting
> it on a certified credstick. They serve the same purpose.

Gotcha.

> If certified cred were a loophole in the system, then so is allowing
> someone to withdraw cash from a bank today. This perception is inaccurate.

Oops! This only makes sense if the person using the certified credstick in
your example above *also* has a normal credstick (complete with a *bank
account*). A SINless individual does not fall into this category-- hence
the loophole.

> People still have to report their money. If a business takes in money, it
> must still report it, regardless of the venue (cash, credit, check, etc.).
> Sure, there's always room for dishonesty here....but that's no different
> from today.

So how does a SINless individual-- that can use a certified credstick
*exactly* the same as a normal credstick-- pay his taxes? Answer: he
doesn't, for he is SINless. Boy, sounds like a *real* easy way of
performing tax evasion.

James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";
ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

Mano au mano, the "Professor"
would kick MacGyver's ass.

From:	Technomancer <arvanit@***.UCH.GR>
Subject:	Re: Credsticks
Date:	Tue, 10 Mar 1998 12:42:54 +0200

Message no. 26 On Tue, 10 Mar 1998, James Lindsay wrote:

> On Mon, 9 Mar 1998 07:57:29 -0500, Justin Pinnow wrote:
>
> > > From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
> > > Date: Monday, March 09, 1998 2:05 AM
>
> > If I withdraw 20 dollars from my bank and put it in my
> > pocket, it's the same as withdrawing money from my bank account and putting
> > it on a certified credstick. They serve the same purpose.
>
> Gotcha.
What is wrong with his statement? Where is the error? I also believe
that certified credsticks are the equivalent of a check that anyone can
cash (what are they called?).

> > If certified cred were a loophole in the system, then so is allowing
> > someone to withdraw cash from a bank today. This perception is inaccurate.
>
> Oops! This only makes sense if the person using the certified credstick in
> your example above *also* has a normal credstick (complete with a *bank
> account*). A SINless individual does not fall into this category-- hence
> the loophole.
>
If you give cash to someone or someone robs you they can't trace the
cash back to you unless he says so (or they have the serial numbers, but
you get my meaning). So a certified credstick should not be in the hands
of a SINless person anyway, much as a guy in Greece could not have the
cash YOU withdraw unless you gave it to him.

> > People still have to report their money. If a business takes in money, it
> > must still report it, regardless of the venue (cash, credit, check, etc.).
> > Sure, there's always room for dishonesty here....but that's no different
> > from today.
>
> So how does a SINless individual-- that can use a certified credstick
> *exactly* the same as a normal credstick-- pay his taxes? Answer: he
> doesn't, for he is SINless. Boy, sounds like a *real* easy way of
> performing tax evasion.
>

Well you can be SINless, never buy a car or get treated in a hospital
(unless you go to UB hospitals!), never buy anything of real value, like
real estate or a new sim-sense home entertainment system, but hey, you
won't pay those stinking taxes (for the things you can't buy or own
anyway).

So, what I say is the since SINless people don't exist for all intents
and perposes (they don't pay taxes, have drive licenses or own
anything), money that get given to them are lost down the drain, until
they show up again in a SINful person's account. THEN they get taxed.

PS: Can anyone understand me, I think I have a way too long time to
express myself in English...

*********************************************************************
* Technomancer * Modesty is one of my countless virtues *
* arvanit@***.uch.gr *
* http://www.csd.uch.gr/~arvanit/ *
*********************************************************************

From:	Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject:	Re: Credsticks
Date:	Tue, 10 Mar 1998 07:57:30 -0500

Message no. 27 > From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
> Date: Tuesday, March 10, 1998 3:34 AM

<Snippity>

> So how does a SINless individual-- that can use a certified credstick
> *exactly* the same as a normal credstick-- pay his taxes? Answer: he
> doesn't, for he is SINless. Boy, sounds like a *real* easy way of
> performing tax evasion.

No, not really. There's a HUGE drawback to being SINless. No medical
treatment, no legal job, no legal apartment or utilities, etc. So, if you
don't mind all those negativities (and many more), then you can avoid
paying taxes by not having a SIN, sure. However, most sane people just
don't consider it worth the price.

Not to mention, I don't see a lot of corporate types suddenly giving up
their day jobs to learn a whole new set of skills to learn how to survive
living on the streets. People don't like change much...especially when it
requires giving up their company car. ;)

> James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia

Justin

From:	Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Credsticks
Date:	Tue, 10 Mar 1998 14:07:06 EST

Message no. 28 In a message dated 98-03-10 08:00:08 EST, vanyel@*******.NET writes:

> Not to mention, I don't see a lot of corporate types suddenly giving up
> their day jobs to learn a whole new set of skills to learn how to survive
> living on the streets. People don't like change much...especially when it
> requires giving up their company car. ;)
>
.....OR their particular world view eh Justin???

-K

From:	Wafflemiesters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Credsticks
Date:	Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:44:11 -0600

Message no. 29 <Big ol' Snip>

> Do you see the abuse of the system? Personally, I don't believe a
> government would allow a bank to develop certified credstick technology
> that allowed this kind of abuse so easily. After all, using a normal
> credstick isn't any more inconvenient for legal citizens, so why create
> this loophole that promotes tax evasion (or other such crimes related to
> concealing money transactions from the government)?

I think there is a misinterpretation here. Think if credsticks as money
holders. A credstick with electronic NY on it is basically the
equivalent
of cash on a stick. If I withdraw 20 dollars from my bank and put it in
my
pocket, it's the same as withdrawing money from my bank account and
putting
it on a certified credstick. They serve the same purpose.

+++===+++===+++===+++===+++

Thats the best view I've seen yet. Also, the fact is, "The Governement"
does not control the banking industry in SR- its
extra-f**king-territorial. NuYen is not even a UCAS currency- its a
completely electronic one from JAPAN, supported by many extraterritorial
corporations. Other currencies DO have various restrictions on them-
wittness Aztlan and Tir Taingre.

Not to say that since a certified stick is "Just Cash" it's OK. Today,
in the US, in large part because of our Govts <irony> rightous and
succesful efforts </irony> to limit drug taffic, you can and will be
arrested just for carrying a big wad of cash with no clearly provable
source. Its de-facto evidence of drug trafficing. Ever heard of being
arrested for "no visible means of support"? Its not used to enforce the
law of gravity.

Mongoose

From:	James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject:	Re: Credsticks
Date:	Wed, 11 Mar 1998 01:39:13 GMT

Message no. 30 On Tue, 10 Mar 1998 07:57:30 -0500, Justin Pinnow wrote:

> > From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
> > Date: Tuesday, March 10, 1998 3:34 AM
>
> <Snippity>
>
> > So how does a SINless individual-- that can use a certified credstick
> > *exactly* the same as a normal credstick-- pay his taxes? Answer: he
> > doesn't, for he is SINless. Boy, sounds like a *real* easy way of
> > performing tax evasion.
>
> No, not really. There's a HUGE drawback to being SINless. No medical
> treatment, no legal job, no legal apartment or utilities, etc. So, if you
> don't mind all those negativities (and many more), then you can avoid
> paying taxes by not having a SIN, sure.

And there's a HUGE advantage to being SINless-- not having to pay out
roughly 50% of your earnings as taxes.

> However, most sane people just don't consider it worth the price.

Since a person must make 60,000Y a year just to *maintain* a Middle
Lifestyle, that's roughly 30,000Y a year that isn't going into the local
government's coffers. You can get by being SINless quite easily with that
extra 30,000Y under your mattress (or on your idea of a certified
credstick).

> Not to mention, I don't see a lot of corporate types suddenly giving up
> their day jobs to learn a whole new set of skills to learn how to survive
> living on the streets. People don't like change much...especially when it
> requires giving up their company car. ;)

Erasing a SIN is very difficult, and beyond the scope of what I was talking
about anyways. To put it bluntly, doing away with certified credsticks
would not inconvenience SINful individuals very much at all, but would make
being SINless v-e-r-y difficult. This would entice the SINless to maybe go
out and apply for a SIN, so that they could be better assured of their
rights as UCAS citizens. Once they begin to pay their taxes (even a little
bit, if they cannot get a decent job) the government will be happy.

James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";
ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

Mano au mano, the "Professor"
would kick MacGyver's ass.

From:	James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject:	Re: Credsticks
Date:	Wed, 11 Mar 1998 01:39:10 GMT

Message no. 31 On Tue, 10 Mar 1998 12:42:54 +0200, Technomancer wrote:

> On Tue, 10 Mar 1998, James Lindsay wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 9 Mar 1998 07:57:29 -0500, Justin Pinnow wrote:
> >
> > > > From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
> > > > Date: Monday, March 09, 1998 2:05 AM
> >
> > > If I withdraw 20 dollars from my bank and put it in my
> > > pocket, it's the same as withdrawing money from my bank account and putting
> > > it on a certified credstick. They serve the same purpose.
> >
> > Gotcha.
> What is wrong with his statement? Where is the error?

I never disagreed with his statement here. It's later on...

> > > People still have to report their money. If a business takes in money, it
> > > must still report it, regardless of the venue (cash, credit, check, etc.).
> > > Sure, there's always room for dishonesty here....but that's no different
> > > from today.
> >
> > So how does a SINless individual-- that can use a certified credstick
> > *exactly* the same as a normal credstick-- pay his taxes? Answer: he
> > doesn't, for he is SINless. Boy, sounds like a *real* easy way of
> > performing tax evasion.
>
> Well you can be SINless, never buy a car or get treated in a hospital
> (unless you go to UB hospitals!), never buy anything of real value, like
> real estate or a new sim-sense home entertainment system, but hey, you
> won't pay those stinking taxes (for the things you can't buy or own
> anyway).

Unfortunately, the Shadowrun rules aren't very clear on this. If a SINful
person pays 5,000Y (!?!) a month for a Middle Lifestyle (assuming that
nearly half of that is put towards paying taxes, car insurance, cell phone
bills, and any other monthly service you require a SIN for), a SINless
person should pay *far* less. But they don't. True, there is that whole
"street index" thing, but since the average citizen pays around 50% of his
earnings in taxes, that's a huge amount of money that could be used to
circumvent most problems of being SINless. The difference isn't nearly as
large as you might think.

> So, what I say is the since SINless people don't exist for all intents
> and perposes (they don't pay taxes, have drive licenses or own
> anything), money that get given to them are lost down the drain, until
> they show up again in a SINful person's account. THEN they get taxed.

*They* don't get taxed... the owner of the bank account does. And
governments don't tax bank deposits, only your bank balance at the end of
the year.

> PS: Can anyone understand me, I think I have a way too long time to
> express myself in English...

No problem! I (we) can understand you fine :)

James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";
ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

Mano au mano, the "Professor"
would kick MacGyver's ass.

From:	James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject:	Re: Credsticks
Date:	Wed, 11 Mar 1998 01:39:15 GMT

Message no. 32 On Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:44:11 -0600, Wafflemiesters wrote:

> <Big ol' Snip>
>
> > Do you see the abuse of the system? Personally, I don't believe a
> > government would allow a bank to develop certified credstick technology
> > that allowed this kind of abuse so easily. After all, using a normal
> > credstick isn't any more inconvenient for legal citizens, so why create
> > this loophole that promotes tax evasion (or other such crimes related to
> > concealing money transactions from the government)?
>
> I think there is a misinterpretation here. Think if credsticks as money
> holders. A credstick with electronic NY on it is basically the
> equivalent
> of cash on a stick. If I withdraw 20 dollars from my bank and put it in
> my
> pocket, it's the same as withdrawing money from my bank account and
> putting
> it on a certified credstick. They serve the same purpose.
>
> +++===+++===+++===+++===+++
>
> Thats the best view I've seen yet. Also, the fact is, "The Governement"
> does not control the banking industry in SR- its
> extra-f**king-territorial.

If a bank wants to interact with local businesses and citizens, it is going
to have to abide by the rules of the local government.

> NuYen is not even a UCAS currency- its a
> completely electronic one from JAPAN, supported by many extraterritorial
> corporations. Other currencies DO have various restrictions on them-
> wittness Aztlan and Tir Taingre.

Once such a bank begins spreading itself out over areas beyond its own
"boarders", it is no longer "extra-f**king-territorial" (whatever that
means). If this were the case, all UCAS would have to do would be to
configure every ATM and credstick exchange machine in UCAS territory to
refuse to acknowledge nuyen as a legal form of currency.

> Not to say that since a certified stick is "Just Cash" it's OK. Today,
> in the US, in large part because of our Govts <irony> rightous and
> succesful efforts </irony> to limit drug taffic, you can and will be
> arrested just for carrying a big wad of cash with no clearly provable
> source. Its de-facto evidence of drug trafficing. Ever heard of being
> arrested for "no visible means of support"? Its not used to enforce the
> law of gravity.

Since Shadowrun is supposed to be *at least* as dark as our own world (if
not much darker) this kind of circumstantial thinking will be one of the
major obstacles for the SINless of 2059.

James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";
ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

Mano au mano, the "Professor"
would kick MacGyver's ass.

From:	Nexx <Nexx@********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Credsticks
Date:	Tue, 10 Mar 1998 20:31:41 -0600

Message no. 33 > And there's a HUGE advantage to being SINless-- not having to pay out
> roughly 50% of your earnings as taxes.
I believe the number is closer to 1/3, but I can't recall my reference (it
might be NAGNA)

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
ICQ 8108186
************
I often think I would put this belief in magic from me if I could, for I have
come to see or to imagine, in men and women, in houses, in handicrafts, in
nearly all sights and sounds, a certain evil, a certain ugliness, that comes
from the slow perishing through centuries of a quality of mind that made this
belief and its evidences common over the world.
-William Butler Yeats "Magic"
***********
Am Moireach Mor!

From:	"Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject:	Re: Credsticks
Date:	Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:32:32 +0000

Message no. 34 |On 11 Mar 98, James Lindsay disseminated foul capitalist propaganda
by writing:

[...]
> > Well you can be SINless, never buy a car or get treated in a hospital
> > (unless you go to UB hospitals!), never buy anything of real value, like
> > real estate or a new sim-sense home entertainment system, but hey, you
> > won't pay those stinking taxes (for the things you can't buy or own
> > anyway).
>
> Unfortunately, the Shadowrun rules aren't very clear on this. If a
> SINful person pays 5,000Y (!?!) a month for a Middle Lifestyle
> (assuming that nearly half of that is put towards paying taxes, car
> insurance, cell phone bills, and any other monthly service you
> require a SIN for), a SINless person should pay *far* less. But
> they don't. True, there is that whole "street index" thing, but
> since the average citizen pays around 50% of his earnings in taxes,
> that's a huge amount of money that could be used to circumvent most
> problems of being SINless. The difference isn't nearly as large as
> you might think.

Well, the 50% you don't pay in taxes, you pay in bribes to get a car,
have assured access to hospital, etc. etc.... (perhaps ;))

Of course, IMC lifestyle includes a false SIN, with rating dependant
on the lifestyle, so I can just say that what is normally taxes, you
have to pay to keep the SIN valid. ;>

[...]
> *They* don't get taxed... the owner of the bank account does. And
> governments don't tax bank deposits, only your bank balance at the
> end of the year.

Heh. Hard to escape, these damn tax critters. ;>

(BTW: 50%? That's damn high... OK, so it's lower than the ones in
Poland after including social security and such... ;>)

> > PS: Can anyone understand me, I think I have a way too long time to
> > express myself in English...
>
> No problem! I (we) can understand you fine :)

(>) Ahhh. I see. So, we are royalty, Mr Lindsay?
(>) Deep Blue

;PP

Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike;
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
Geek Code v3.1 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O@ M- PS+(+++) PE Y+
PGP- !t--- 5+(-) X- R*+++>$ tv-- b++++ D+ G-- e h--*! !r-- !y-*
Fight for the right to pretend to work.

From:	Wafflemiesters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Credsticks
Date:	Wed, 11 Mar 1998 18:20:59 -0600

Message no. 35 <snip "credstics just cash" assesment>
/> Thats the best view I've seen yet. Also, the fact is, "The
Governement"
/> does not control the banking industry in SR- its
/> extra-f**king-territorial.

/If a bank wants to interact with local businesses and citizens, it is
going
/to have to abide by the rules of the local government.

Aztechnology sells goods and sevices in the UCAS. The don't have to
abide by many UCAS laws.
I see your point, but I think SR has enough legal gray areas, and the
corps weild enough power, that something like Certified Credsticks could
easilly happen.

/> NuYen is not even a UCAS currency- its a
/> completely electronic one from JAPAN, supported by many
extraterritorial
/> corporations. Other currencies DO have various restrictions on them-
/> wittness Aztlan and Tir Taingre.

/Once such a bank begins spreading itself out over areas beyond its own
/"boarders", it is no longer "extra-f**king-territorial" (whatever
that
/means). If this were the case, all UCAS would have to do would be to
/configure every ATM and credstick exchange machine in UCAS territory to
/refuse to acknowledge nuyen as a legal form of currency.

Thats why the NAGRL has exchange rates and you can only change money at
certain locations. In fact, you CAN't spend Nuyen in most UCAS stores,
just like you can't spend Yen in one today. There are, in fact, some
legal hoops you must jump through today to purchase foriegn currency in
amounts of any importance.

Of course, this just dodges the question of why UCAS dollars are
available as certified cred. The simple answer is "it does". The
socail coventions that aculture institutes as monetary policy are not
alaways based on sense, logic, or convieniece, either of the govt or the
people.

Perhaps E-cash remains legal becuase real cash does. There are UCAS
"greenbacks"- they are not real common or useful, but AFAIK, even
"change" is still around. Not allowing the SINless to buy foreign
currency would put a certain damper on things, although it might be
considered aviolation of humanrights(which they still have). Remebr,
"laissez faire" istheorder of the day. Still, I can't see may govts
allowing unrestrained trade in thier certified electronic currency- the
possibilites make the nannosecond buy out look like a garage sale
swindle.

/> Not to say that since a certified stick is "Just Cash" it's OK.
Today,
/> in the US, in large part because of our Govts <irony> rightous and
/> succesful efforts </irony> to limit drug taffic, you can and will be
/> arrested just for carrying a big wad of cash with no clearly provable
/source. Its de-facto evidence of drug trafficing. Ever heard of being
/> arrested for "no visible means of support"? Its not used to enforce
the
/> law of gravity.

/Since Shadowrun is supposed to be *at least* as dark as our own world
(if
/not much darker) this kind of circumstantial thinking will be one of
the
/major obstacles for the SINless of 2059.

Did I say it wasn't? Thats exactly why I mentioned it.
I don't think the world of SR is really much "darker" than our own- its
more polarized and violent, yes. Its definately much GRAYER, with more
room for quasilegal shenanigins, at least as written by FASA.

/James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia

The only thing against SR's certified credit seems to boil down to "the
Government wouldn't like it." Well, government liked loosing half its
land, or allowing corporations ther own arms and territory, but it is
part of th SR world.
If it bugs you, look at Cyberpunk 2020 and GURPS Cyberpunk. They have
alternative banking systems that could easily be used in SR that adress
the issues of tax evasion, tracability,and such in much greater detail.

Mongoose

From:	greg basa <demipop@**********.COM>
Subject:	Credsticks
Date:	Sat, 16 Jan 1999 14:43:33 -0500

Message no. 36 Thanks for the suggestions regarding the physad sniper, but I'm having
a bit of trouble finding range-sense. In what book can I find that?
(Our group is playing a straight vanilla campaign).

OK, here's a question I've been torturing myself over for the past few
days:

Credsticks. When a character buys a fake SIN (and thus, a false
credstick), how much does it cost to put nuyen into the credstick, or
is it already filled up?

FASA Archetypes. I tried reverse-engineering these, and...they don't
work. The Sammy's spent at least 900,000 on resources, while the
Weapons Specialist was shorted on clips. Has anyone tried to modify
these? One of my players used the Street Sam right out of the book,
and I couldn't believe that you could get that much for a 1,000,000
nuyen. Guess what? You can't.

Lastly, what is the exact nature of Ballistics? Will this help in any
firearms test?

-----
Stand tall and shake the heavens.

Angelkiller 404

http://www.mindspring.com/~demipop/

ICQ: 2157053

From:	Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Credsticks
Date:	Sat, 16 Jan 1999 16:54:10 -0500

Message no. 37 At 02:43 PM 1/16/99 -0500, greg basa wrote:
>
>Credsticks. When a character buys a fake SIN (and thus, a false
>credstick), how much does it cost to put nuyen into the credstick, or
>is it already filled up?

No, it's an ID credstick with assorted records and security tags and such
on it that prove that you're the person on the stick. It can also carry a
credit balance, but you have to transfer that to the stick separately. The
cost is, of course, 1 nuyen per nuyen. :)

>Lastly, what is the exact nature of Ballistics? Will this help in any
>firearms test?

Ballistics is the scientific study of firearms, with a specific eye toward
forensic work. For instance, every gun leaves unique markings on the
bullets it fires due to the grooves in the barrel that produce rifling.
(Rifling is spinning the bullet so that it flies straighter and farther
upon exiting the barrel.) By matching a bullet recovered as evidence (in
reasonably good shape) to a bullet known to be fired from a given weapon,
you can tell if that weapon fired the suspect bullet. This technique is as
reliable as fingerprinting. Ballistics would probably also be considered
to cover the analysis of a crime-scene where gunplay was involved. For
example, by measuring the depth and angle of a bullet-hole in a given
surface, and knowing what caliber of gun fired the bullet, you can estimate
from where the gun was fired with a reasonable degree of accuracy. Bullet
wounds can also give this kind of information, but that'd be covered more
by forensic medicine.

In physics, ballistics refers to calculating the particulars of projectiles
flying in a parabolic trajectory. Technically speaking, any projectile
launched at less than orbital velocity is going to follow some sort of
ballistic trajectory.

No, this will not help you in a firearms test in any way. Any firearms
skill can be assumed to already include all the practical aspects that any
sort of theoretical or mathematical calculation that you could do.

--
Starjammer - starjammer@**********.com - Marietta, GA

"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death
that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it
to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn
the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be
nothing. Only I will remain."
-- Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear, Frank Herbert, Dune

From:	"XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject:	Re: Credsticks
Date:	Sat, 16 Jan 1999 16:03:16 -0600

Message no. 38 > Credsticks. When a character buys a fake SIN (and thus, a false
> credstick), how much does it cost to put nuyen into the credstick, or
> is it already filled up?

Neither. Basically, you are paying for a very detailed spoof that makes most
credit-checking systems find money that doesn't actually exist. (For all I
know, all fake SINs are really just very elaborate embezzlement systems.
You'd have to ask your local evil GM to find out how he wants to run it).
The potential for abuse here would be if the character starts using his fake
SIN to buy a bunch of untraceable certified credsticks....

> Lastly, what is the exact nature of Ballistics? Will this help in any
> firearms test?

As a secondary skill, perhaps, depending on the situation. It also depends
on how you use it. Ballistics could be useful for a sniper, or a forensics
expert, or a physicist, or whatever... (Knowledge skill? B/R? Active?)

-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Credsticks
Date:	Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:41:33 +0100

Message no. 39 According to greg basa, at 14:43 on 16 Jan 99, the word on
the street was...

> Credsticks. When a character buys a fake SIN (and thus, a false
> credstick), how much does it cost to put nuyen into the credstick, or
> is it already filled up?

IMHO you can use it just like any other credstick, EXCEPT that you have to
roll a test (described in the Sprawl Sites, the NAGRL, and SR3) every time
you use the thing -- to pay with it as well as to put money on it. Failing
the test means people get suspicious and may call the cops.

> FASA Archetypes. I tried reverse-engineering these, and...they don't
> work. The Sammy's spent at least 900,000 on resources, while the
> Weapons Specialist was shorted on clips. Has anyone tried to modify
> these? One of my players used the Street Sam right out of the book,
> and I couldn't believe that you could get that much for a 1,000,000
> nuyen. Guess what? You can't.

Let's get straight that you're talking about SR3 here and not SRII, right?
Many of the SRII archetypes never added up, but I wasn't aware of the same
problem with SR3.

Hmm, let's check.

Cybereyes with lots of options: 27,000
Dampener: 7,000
Datajack: 4,000
Dermal Plating: 12,000
Hearing Amp: 7,000
Two cyberarms with extras: 475,500
Reaction Enhancer: 60,000
Wired Reflexes: 330,000
Total: 922,500 nuyen

That leaves equipment that, although I haven't looked up its prices,
appears to cost less than the 77,500 nuyen left over here. Still, a gold
DoCwagon contract plus two middle lifestyles for three months plus a level
1 contact is 60,000 already...

> Lastly, what is the exact nature of Ballistics? Will this help in any
> firearms test?

It's useful for tuning your guns and it might help with sniping as well
IRL, though the ways in which you could incorporate it into SR would make
it either have no effect at all, or be much too powerful. There isn't
really a middle road, I think, unless you want to alter the complimentary
skill rules (because IMO half the successes of a Ballistics test adding to
your Rifles test is WAY too much).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And that's as far as the conversation went.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Elindor Quinn <rjakins@****.MURDOCH.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Credsticks
Date:	Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:39:19 +0800

Message no. 40 XaOs [David Goth] indicated Re: Credsticks

> > Lastly, what is the exact nature of Ballistics? Will this help in any
> > firearms test?
>
> As a secondary skill, perhaps, depending on the situation. It also depends
> on how you use it. Ballistics could be useful for a sniper, or a forensics
> expert, or a physicist, or whatever... (Knowledge skill? B/R? Active?)

In order to use ballistics as a complimentary skill, you would need
to be able to calculate the tragectories in real time. Which means
Encephalon 4, SPU Math 4 and range finder at least.

Elindor Quinn
The Devil's Advocate

From:	greg basa <demipop@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Credsticks
Date:	Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:47:34 -0500

Message no. 41 > As a secondary skill, perhaps, depending on the situation. It also
depends
> on how you use it. Ballistics could be useful for a sniper, or a
forensics
> expert, or a physicist, or whatever... (Knowledge skill? B/R?
Active?)

In order to use ballistics as a complimentary skill, you would need
to be able to calculate the tragectories in real time. Which means
Encephalon 4, SPU Math 4 and range finder at least.

Unless, of course, you took the time to case the area out first,
either by using a GPS or by doing yourself. Nobody said ballistics
was going to be one of those skills you can use in a heartbeat.

-----
Stand tall and shake the heavens.

Angelkiller 404

http://www.mindspring.com/~demipop/

ICQ: 2157053

From:	Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
Subject:	Re: Credsticks
Date:	Wed, 20 Jan 1999 01:55:33 +0100

Message no. 42 And so it came to happen that greg basa wrote in reply to ???:

<snip>
> In order to use ballistics as a complimentary skill, you would need
> to be able to calculate the tragectories in real time. Which means
> Encephalon 4, SPU Math 4 and range finder at least.
>
> Unless, of course, you took the time to case the area out first,
> either by using a GPS or by doing yourself. Nobody said ballistics
> was going to be one of those skills you can use in a heartbeat.

Right, and as sombody pointed out mucho earlier on this list, a SPU and
a Encephalon would be the starting point to actually _allow_ the
calculations beeing made. The actuall calculations _should_ be an
complex action. And as we all know, after using a complex action the
Target most likely is not in place anymore...
Ah, lurve it than I steal ideas...
;o)
--
---> Steadfast...Selfproclaimed Protector of Gerber BABY's
Surfin' through the 'trix is
not like dustin crops boy!
Uh, 089 of 200 it states in Gerber BABY...

From:	abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject:	Credsticks
Date:	Sat, 7 Aug 1999 00:05:35 -0400

Message no. 43 Who the heck would take payment in credsticks anyway? Bearer bonds are a
much better option, although if you can swing it, appropriate corps' stock
is a good option if you can manage verification.

IMHO.

From:	Angelkiller 404 angelkiller404@**********.com
Subject:	Credsticks
Date:	Sat, 7 Aug 1999 03:31:15 -0400

Message no. 44 -----Original Message-----
From: abortion_engine <abortion_engine@*******.com>
To: Shadowrun Newslist <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: Saturday, August 07, 1999 12:08 AM
Subject: Credsticks

>Who the heck would take payment in credsticks anyway? Bearer bonds
are a
>much better option, although if you can swing it, appropriate corps'
stock
>is a good option if you can manage verification.

Who'd take payment in credsticks, you say? I dunno, I may be
relatively green at this, but do I *really* want to get my hands on
that wiz Force 6 power foci that my combat mage has been eyeing ever
since our campaign began, or do I want to get some stock in Fuchi...?
Stock is good for the short run, but for me, it's credsticks all the
way. Can't buy real fruit from your local grocer with bearer bonds,
you know.

It's sorta like getting paid with a paycheck, mutual funds, or stock
shares. Sure, the other two are great in the long run, but what is it
we need every other week?

-----
AK404

http://mindspring.com/~angelkiller404/
http://gibbed.com/parasiteve/
ICQ: 2157053

"There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that
cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just
comes in to work every day and has a job to do."

From:	Richard Tomasso rtomasso@*******.com
Subject:	Credsticks
Date:	Tue, 17 Aug 1999 14:47:40 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 45 abortion_engine wrote:
> Who the heck would take payment in credsticks anyway? Bearer bonds are a
> much better option, although if you can swing it, appropriate corps' stock
> is a good option if you can manage verification.

Except bearer bonds don't pay out all at once and you have to go to the
issuer or an affiliated financial institution to collect your monthly,
quarterly, or yearly dividends. Plus, they can be stolen and cashed in
by anybody. Similar for a credstick, but at least with a stick you can
add in some verification info.

Stock is great, if you have a SIN or an account to hold them in. If you
get actual certificates (likely a rarity in 2060) you have a bit more
flexibility, but need to go to a broker or the corp to convert them to
cash or scrip.

From:	Angelkiller 404 angelkiller404@**********.com
Subject:	Credsticks
Date:	Tue, 17 Aug 1999 21:49:22 -0400

Message no. 46 >> Who the heck would take payment in credsticks anyway? Bearer bonds
are a
>> much better option, although if you can swing it, appropriate
corps' stock
>> is a good option if you can manage verification.
>
>Except bearer bonds don't pay out all at once and you have to go to
the
>issuer or an affiliated financial institution to collect your
monthly,
>quarterly, or yearly dividends. Plus, they can be stolen and cashed
in
>by anybody. Similar for a credstick, but at least with a stick you
can
>add in some verification info.
>
>Stock is great, if you have a SIN or an account to hold them in. If
you
>get actual certificates (likely a rarity in 2060) you have a bit more
>flexibility, but need to go to a broker or the corp to convert them
to
>cash or scrip.
>
This is going to sound SO insane, but has anyone ever considered
taking a corporate SIN (under an assumed identity, of course!) as
payment? I mean, not just any corp, but a corp that they actually get
along well with, a so-called "long-term SR"or a near-"long-term" SR?
I figure they already know something about you; you might even be on
friendly, "lookit me, I'm a human too!" terms with a regular Johnson.
Then you can go for stocks, bearer bonds, and those nice little
things...

..of course, I'm not completely paranoid, now am I?

-----
AK404

http://freespeech.org/ak404/
http://gibbed.com/parasiteve/
ICQ: 2157053

"You fool, pain is my friend! Allow me to introduce you to him!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!"

From:	Mockingbird mockingbird@*********.com
Subject:	Credsticks
Date:	Wed, 18 Aug 1999 09:19:31 -0500

Message no. 47 ----- Original Message -----
From: Angelkiller 404 <angelkiller404@**********.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 8:49 PM
Subject: Re: Credsticks

> >
> This is going to sound SO insane, but has anyone ever considered
> taking a corporate SIN (under an assumed identity, of course!) as
> payment? I mean, not just any corp, but a corp that they actually get
> along well with, a so-called "long-term SR"or a near-"long-term"
SR?
> I figure they already know something about you; you might even be on
> friendly, "lookit me, I'm a human too!" terms with a regular Johnson.
> Then you can go for stocks, bearer bonds, and those nice little
> things...
>
> ..of course, I'm not completely paranoid, now am I?

Hi,
Actually, I have given my players both permenant SIN's and temporary
SIN's as part (or all) of the payment. Temp SIN's are great. "Here is
10000 nuyen worth of Ares scrip and an Ares corp SIN that will be good
for the next two weeks." The players take less money for the job since
they don't have to deal with Street Prices on their purchases and it
makes it look like whatever corp the ID is for hired them even if it
isn't. Haven't had a player turn it down yet.

Mockingbird

From:	Darrell L. Bowman darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Subject:	Credsticks
Date:	Tue, 24 Aug 1999 08:33:18 -0400

Message no. 48 On 18 Aug 99, at 9:19, Mockingbird wrote:

> > This is going to sound SO insane, but has anyone ever considered
> > taking a corporate SIN (under an assumed identity, of course!) as
> > payment? I mean, not just any corp, but a corp that they actually get
> > along well with, a so-called "long-term SR"or a
near-"long-term" SR? I
> > figure they already know something about you; you might even be on
> > friendly, "lookit me, I'm a human too!" terms with a regular Johnson.
> > Then you can go for stocks, bearer bonds, and those nice little
> > things...
> >
> > ..of course, I'm not completely paranoid, now am I?
>
> Hi,
> Actually, I have given my players both permenant SIN's and temporary
> SIN's as part (or all) of the payment. Temp SIN's are great. "Here is
> 10000 nuyen worth of Ares scrip and an Ares corp SIN that will be good for
> the next two weeks." The players take less money for the job since they
> don't have to deal with Street Prices on their purchases and it makes it
> look like whatever corp the ID is for hired them even if it isn't.
> Haven't had a player turn it down yet.

Mockingbird, I hate to rain on yer parade, but why do corps
hire runners? Deniability. So, you think they're gonna' pay out
in something that ID's the runners with the corp?

---
<<!BANG!>>
They always forget to count the one in the pipe...
-- Smilin' Jack.

Nightshade, Human Racoon Shaman
or
Raven, Elven Irish Rigger with an attitude.

Darrell Bowman
darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us

From:	Quindrael d.n.m.vannederveen@********.warande.uu.nl
Subject:	Credsticks
Date:	Tue, 24 Aug 1999 15:03:19 +0200

Message no. 49 >Mockingbird, I hate to rain on yer parade, but why do corps
>hire runners? Deniability. So, you think they're gonna' pay out
>in something that ID's the runners with the corp?

Most of the times, not. But they can exterminate the SIN as soon as it is
needed, and suddenly, there is no link anymore.

And BTW, Mr. Johnson: "For this SIN to be usable in this way, we need some
samples and details of you..."

VrGr David

"We're but fools of our fate, on this earth I shall wait by the roots of my
soul."
(Fields of the Nephilim - "Sumerland (what dreams may come)")

From:	Mockingbird mockingbird@*********.com
Subject:	Credsticks
Date:	Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:54:25 -0500

Message no. 50 ----- Original Message -----
From: Darrell L. Bowman <darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us>
To: <shadowrn@*********.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 1999 7:33 AM
Subject: Re: Credsticks

> Mockingbird, I hate to rain on yer parade, but why do corps
> hire runners? Deniability. So, you think they're gonna' pay out
> in something that ID's the runners with the corp?
>
>

"I've got you now Lex, every part in that robot can be traced back to
Lexcorp."
--Superman to Lex Luthor
"Why yes, it seems all of those parts were stolen by a disgruntle
ex-employee. I have the police investigation right here."
--Lex Luthor's reply
"Superman the Animated Adventures" (from memory)

Same concept.
Mockingbird

Message no. 51 A couple of my players brought up some interested questions last
session. In the books it says that your credstick works like your keys,
opening your house, starting your car, etc. So how do you go through
drive thru if you use your credstick as a key? How do you handle valet
parking?

Bai Shen

Message no. 52 From: "Bai Shen" <baishen@**********.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 1:31 PM

> A couple of my players brought up some interested questions last
> session. In the books it says that your credstick works like your keys,
> opening your house, starting your car, etc. So how do you go through
> drive thru if you use your credstick as a key? How do you handle valet
> parking?
>
> Bai Shen
>

I've always thought of this as having multiple credsticks. One "personal"
credstick with an emergency stash of nuyen on it and all the identity stuff,
and then maybe another one with the regular spending money on it, and then
maybe a certified one, just in case.

Kinda like having all your keys and ID on one stick, and then having a
second stick as your creditcard type of dealie. :)

Ever lovable and always scrappy,
kawaii

Message no. 53 > A couple of my players brought up some interested questions last
session. In the books it says that your credstick works like your
keys, opening your house, starting your car, etc. So how do you go
through drive thru if you use your credstick as a key? How do you
handle valet parking?

Well, the car my friend and I used to get around Oz kept running if
you took the key out of the ignition... don't know if I'd call that a
feature so much as a defect, though :)
In SR, I'd assume you could get keys made. Frankly I've always
thought using your credstick as a house-key and car key was a stupid
idea: if it gets ripped off it has your address and registration on
it! Lose your credstick, get robbed (this doesn't take the various
scans required into account, but it's still an issue, I think). So
I'd say that, upon request, you could have independent keys made.
And better cars probably come with a valet key, just like cars do nowadays.

====-Boondocker

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Message no. 54 Von Bai Shen :

>A couple of my players brought up some interested questions last
>session. In the books it says that your credstick works like your keys,
>opening your house, starting your car, etc. So how do you go through
>drive thru if you use your credstick as a key? How do you handle valet
>parking?

IMO, most people own a credstick and a checkstick for small bills. I guess
paying by credstick will always involve some kind of fee by the bank, while
a checkstick is a lot like cash money. You simply get your money faster,
with less amount of "paperwork" and lower costs for the transaction.

Arclight

Message no. 55 > Frankly I've always
> thought using your credstick as a house-key and car key was a stupid
> idea: if it gets ripped off it has your address and registration on
> it!

Probably not. To open a lock, it is not required that the key know where the
lock is, so this type of information (address, etc) is probably not coded
into the stick. The stick would need the unique ID of the lock, but it would
probably not be possible to track this ID down. For example, your Ethernet
card has a unique number on it, but it is unlikely that anyone on the planet
knows this number, including you (anyone with access to your computer can
find out, though). It is possible that the manufacturer of your computer
kept track that the Ethernet ID was installed into your machine, but I doubt
it. Plus, even if they did, it is unlikely they could find that computer if
they wanted to, especially if you didn't buy it from them directly.

> Lose your credstick, get robbed (this doesn't take the various
> scans required into account, but it's still an issue, I think).

Encryption makes it very difficult to pull use out of a stolen credstick.
Usually, you will be more successful with a rubber-hose attack than trying
to crack the encryption.

As far as car keys go, chances are that when you buy the car, you are given
two credsticks that contain nothing but the keys to the car. You can
probably copy these keys to your own credstick, if you wish.

For more on how credsticks might work, see my article on them:

http://bhopal.flashpt.com/internet/nagee.nsf/docs/credsticks

Wordman

Message no. 56 <html><DIV>
<P><BR><BR></P></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>From: Bai Shen <BAISHEN@**********.COM>
<DIV></DIV>>Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.com
<DIV></DIV>>To: shadowrn@*********.com
<DIV></DIV>>Subject: Credsticks
<DIV></DIV>>Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:31:27 -0500
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>A couple of my players brought up some interested questions
last
<DIV></DIV>>session. In the books it says that your credstick works
like your keys,
<DIV></DIV>>opening your house, starting your car, etc. So how do you
go through
<DIV></DIV>>drive thru if you use your credstick as a key? How do you
handle valet
<DIV></DIV>>parking?
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>Bai Shen
<DIV></DIV>
<P>> </P>
<P>I think that credsticks can do all you said, but dont forget there is still
paper-money. So it should be the same for keys. Iron keys are still available.</P>
<DIV></DIV><br clear=all><hr>Get your FREE download of MSN
Explorer at <a
href="http://explorer.msn.com">http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></p></html>;

Message no. 57 > Probably not. To open a lock, it is not required that the key know
where the lock is, so this type of information (address, etc) is
probably not coded into the stick. The stick would need the unique ID
of the lock, but it would probably not be possible to track this ID
down.

I was under the impression your credstick contained all your ID
(driver's license, Medi-whatever card, etc). It would follow it had
your address. Regardless, I guess you're right, it would take a
decker with the right equipment to crack the stick and get any info
out of it. All this before the owner reported it stolen and
deactivated its access to various things :)
I still don't like the idea of putting all your eggs in one basket
though. Maybe that's unjustified, given the amount of work a crook
would have to go through to use the credstick for anything nefarious.

====-Boondocker

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Message no. 58 > I still don't like the idea of putting all your eggs in one basket
>though. Maybe that's unjustified, given the amount of work a crook
>would have to go through to use the credstick for anything nefarious.

Wasn't there a book released with some info in it about Credsticks (NA Guide
to Real life, I think)
which split credsticks into two types. Certified and standard.
If memory serves well, a standard stick carried your bank details, id and
all other important stuff, i.e.: SIN. And the certified ones were hard
cash - a replacement for paper money. They were also, supposedly,
untraceable.
I would assume you could set your Standard credstick to open your locks,
etc, and that a certified one won't.
According to memory, they also had coloured bands around them denoting the
amount of currency on them.

How correct am I? If I am at all.

Shane

Message no. 59 >Wasn't there a book released with some info in it about Credsticks (NA
Guide to Real life, I think)
>which split credsticks into two types. Certified and standard.

AHA! Sprawl Sites AND the Neo-Anarchist's Guide to Real Life had the info.

Shane

Message no. 60 > Wasn't there a book released with some info in it about Credsticks
(NA Guide to Real life, I think) which split credsticks into two
types. Certified and standard.

Believe SR3 goes into this too. And yes, the discussion we were
having takes into account those separations.

> According to memory, they also had coloured bands around them
denoting the amount of currency on them.

Yeah, but not the currency on them, the transaction amounts they
can handle without further (presumably your bank's) authorization.

====-Boondocker

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Message no. 61 "Bai Shen" <baishen@**********.com> wrote,

> A couple of my players brought up some interested questions last
> session. In the books it says that your credstick works like your keys,
> opening your house, starting your car, etc. So how do you go through
> drive thru if you use your credstick as a key? How do you handle valet
> parking?

This has been superseded by Rigger 3. Basically, ignition systems
activate through maglocks activated by passcodes, passcards, or
biometric prints.

-- Jon

Message no. 62 Scott W writes:

> I was under the impression your credstick contained all your ID
> (driver's license, Medi-whatever card, etc). It would follow it had
> your address.

Alternatively, a credstick might just contain references to secure databases
that contain the actual information. When a credstick reader checks the
reference ID stored on the stick, it is able to look up the information in a
database. Likely, the information will only be released if the appropriate
PIN/Thumbprint/Retinal Scan/DNA Test/etc that accompanies the credsstick's
use passes. Also, perhaps only certified credstick verifiers have access to
particular portions of the data (say the local cyber clinic may have
authority to check medical records, but the Stuffer Shack probably won't).
Thus even if someone were able to decrypt your stick, all they'd get is your
reference ID(s) in various databases. They'd then have to go and deck the
databases to obtain anything really useful.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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D G+ e++>++++$ h(*) r++ y-(--)
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Message no. 63 > > A couple of my players brought up some interested questions last
> > session. In the books it says that your credstick works like your keys,
> > opening your house, starting your car, etc. So how do you go through
> > drive thru if you use your credstick as a key? How do you handle valet
> > parking?
> This has been superseded by Rigger 3. Basically, ignition systems
> activate through maglocks activated by passcodes, passcards, or
> biometric prints.

Okay, that answeres the drive thru question. But how do you handle
valet parking? :)

Bai Shen

Message no. 64 >> > A couple of my players brought up some
interested questions last
>> > session. In the books it says that your
credstick works like your keys,
>> > opening your house, starting your car, etc.
So how do you go through
>> > drive thru if you use your credstick as a
key? How do you handle valet
>> > parking?
>> This has been superseded by Rigger 3.
Basically, ignition systems
>> activate through maglocks activated by
passcodes, passcards, or
>> biometric prints.

>Okay, that answeres the drive thru question.
>But how do you handle valet parking? :)

Bai Shen

You don't. Cars can park themselves. Level 1
autonav can follow a pre-set route through
traffic etc. and can handle minor tasks (like
"park"). Level 2 can make up optimum routes to a
destination. Level 3 can handle offroad and level
4 can make optimum offroad routes and slice
french fries in seven different ways.

Alternately you just leave the car running. I
doubt very much whether you'd have to
continuously re-enter a passcode, re-swipe a
passcard or hold your palm to a biometric print
while the car is going.

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Message no. 65 --- James Zealey <incubus@*********.zzn.com> wrote:
> You don't. Cars can park themselves. Level 1
> autonav can follow a pre-set route through
> traffic etc. and can handle minor tasks (like
> "park"). Level 2 can make up optimum routes to a
> destination. Level 3 can handle offroad and level
> 4 can make optimum offroad routes and slice
> french fries in seven different ways.
>
> Alternately you just leave the car running. I
> doubt very much whether you'd have to
> continuously re-enter a passcode, re-swipe a
> passcard or hold your palm to a biometric print
> while the car is going.
>

So then how do you shut it off? I doubt that's
programed for when you stop, as it would make traffic
jams, streetlights, and stop signs that much more
difficult (not to mention nerve wracking!) I can see
leaving the car running for the valet... oh, wait. an
"off" switch. Gee, I'm getting too wrapped up in the
moment.

- Dr.Vyk

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Message no. 66 Curtis Askren wrote:

> --- James Zealey <incubus@*********.zzn.com> wrote:
> > You don't. Cars can park themselves. <snip>
> > Alternately you just leave the car running.

For the entire time you are in the restaurant? I'm sure
car thieves would love that...

> So then how do you shut it off? <snip> oh, wait. an
> "off" switch. Gee, I'm getting too wrapped up in the
> moment.

So then how do they get it back on to drive it back
to you? Even an autopilot isn't going to be able to
bring the car back when you need it unless you can
call it via some means which likely isn't built into
a credstick (radio key chain, cell phone, etc.).

You're much better of with biometrics and/or keys...
you could even grant temporary biometric access for
valet or loan use...

"Autopilot recognize Jimmy as temporary driver for
this evening..."

"Uh hi..."

"Voice print acquired."

You gotta remember how annoying talking cars are even
without a brain :)

Regards

Charlie
--
"What emotions did I feel when I got into space? I'll
tell you after an 8 and half minute ride on a big
rocket you feel really relieved to be in outer space!"

--ISS commander William Shepherd to
a Chicago 7th grader via Ham radio

Message no. 67 > For the entire time you are in the restaurant? I'm sure
> car thieves would love that...
>
> > So then how do you shut it off? <snip> oh, wait. an
> > "off" switch. Gee, I'm getting too wrapped up in the
> > moment.
>
> So then how do they get it back on to drive it back
> to you? Even an autopilot isn't going to be able to
> bring the car back when you need it unless you can
> call it via some means which likely isn't built into
> a credstick (radio key chain, cell phone, etc.).
>
> You're much better of with biometrics and/or keys...
> you could even grant temporary biometric access for
> valet or loan use...
>
> "Autopilot recognize Jimmy as temporary driver for
> this evening..."
>
> "Uh hi..."
>
> "Voice print acquired."
>
> You gotta remember how annoying talking cars are even
> without a brain :)
>
> Regards
>
> Charlie

Personally I usually play riggers with cranial remote decks, saves me
from wondering too much about this crap. When they want their car they
just close their eyes and say "come here". Also it really impresses a
date when you exit the resturant and the car is already waiting and warm.

Czar Eggbert

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Message no. 68 On Thu, 15 Feb 2001 16:26:48 +0000 Mike D Fontaine
<dartheggbert@****.com> writes:
<SNIP>
> Personally I usually play riggers with cranial remote decks, saves
> me
> from wondering too much about this crap. When they want their car
> they
> just close their eyes and say "come here". Also it really impresses
> a
> date when you exit the resturant and the car is already waiting and
> warm.

I have a rigger with a cyberarm deck to the same effect but cheaper
(IIRC)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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Message no. 69 Damion Milliken wrote:

>Alternatively, a credstick might just contain references to secure >
>databases that contain the actual information. When a credstick >
>reader checks the reference ID stored on the stick, it is able to >
>look up the information in a database. Likely, the information will > only
>be released if the appropriate PIN/Thumbprint/Retinal Scan/DNA > Test/etc
>that accompanies the credsstick's use passes. Also, perhaps > only
>certified credstick verifiers have access to particular portions > of the
>data (say the local cyber clinic may have authority to check > medical
>records, but the Stuffer Shack probably won't). Thus even if > someone were
>able to decrypt your stick, all they'd get is your > reference ID(s)
>in various databases. They'd then have to go and > deck the databases
>to obtain anything really useful.

This seems really familiar- I can remember reading something very like this
in that a SIN was just a an index of sorts, a bunch of directions to the
different databases. IIRC it was from a bit in one of the books about making
fake SIN's or deleting your old ID. IIRC is said that it was easy enough to
delete the SIN, it was deleting the info spread over all the different
databases that made them so expensive.
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