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Message no. 1
From: The Vagabond <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Credsticks [was Re: SINless and the Law]
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:14:14 PST
>David Buehrer said on 6:50/ 3 Mar 98...
>
>> Where there's a lawyer, there's a way :)
>
>But how are you going to pay that lawyer if you're SINless? :) Can't
>transfer money from your cred account, because either you don't have
one
>or it's an illegale one; and i doubt a respectable lawyer (is there
such a
>thing? :) would want to receive money that needs to be laundered before
>being usable.

Am I the only person who's heard of a certified credstick?


-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com> <ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
"Fall seven times, stand up eight."
-Japanese Proverb


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Message no. 2
From: NEWSHADOW <NEWSHADOW@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Credsticks [was Re: SINless and the Law]
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:32:54 EST
In a message dated 98-03-03 16:19:29 EST, you write:

>Am I the only person who's heard of a certified credstick?

No you're not. Wouldn't a certified credstick be just as legal as one that
contains all your personal info like SIN and credit cards?

SHADOW
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arena/6852/index.html
Message no. 3
From: MgkellyMJ7 <MgkellyMJ7@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Credsticks [was Re: SINless and the Law]
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:33:12 EST
In a message dated 98-03-03 18:33:43 EST, you write:

<< No you're not. Wouldn't a certified credstick be just as legal as one that
contains all your personal info like SIN and credit cards? >>

IIRC, a certified credstick is the same as cash. no ID required.

Mgkelly
Message no. 4
From: Bruce Ford <shaman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Credsticks [was Re: SINless and the Law]
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:22:19 -0700
On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, The Vagabond wrote:

> Am I the only person who's heard of a certified credstick?

No, they are quite commonly used in every campaign I have ever played or
GM'd.


------
Bruce Ford aka Rendar, the educated Ork Street Samurai.

"The Shadows are your friend. Intelligence, your ally. Negotiation, your
companion. Violence, your lover...but frag, chaos is your wife!"
-Summary of the run's results to a Johnson.

E-mail: shaman@*******.com ICQ#: 4804267
Message no. 5
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Credsticks [was Re: SINless and the Law]
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 03:26:52 GMT
On Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:33:12 EST, MgkellyMJ7 wrote:

> In a message dated 98-03-03 18:33:43 EST, you write:
>
> << No you're not. Wouldn't a certified credstick be just as legal as one that
> contains all your personal info like SIN and credit cards? >>
>
> IIRC, a certified credstick is the same as cash. no ID required.

Yes, I believe a certified credstick is the same as a certified cheque,
postal money order, or just plain cash.

Coming back on to topic, however, I don't believe a government court would
issue a certified credstick to someone without a SIN. Certified credsticks
are meant to be used by legitimate citizens that possess normal credstick
accounts. It is simply a way of transferring funds when a credstick reader
isn't available.

For a court to issue a certified credstick to someone that would most
likely require the services of an illegal "credstick laundering operation"
to "cash" it wouldn't make much sense. Isn't it "illegal" (to a
certain
degree) to simply *be* SINless, especially if you actively attempting to
remain so? I doubt there would be any punishment, but if brought before a
court for whatever reasons, I am sure that they would "insist" that you
acquire a SIN ASAP.



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";
ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

Mano au mano, the "Professor"
would kick MacGyver's ass.
Message no. 6
From: The Vagabond <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Credsticks [was Re: SINless and the Law]
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:45:38 PST
>Yes, I believe a certified credstick is the same as a certified cheque,
>postal money order, or just plain cash.
>
>Coming back on to topic, however, I don't believe a government court
would
>issue a certified credstick to someone without a SIN.

Negative. If you are going to come back "on topic" come allll the
way back. Where Gurth was saying that you couldn't pay for an
attourney(I believe it was Gurth, anyway). And my point is, any
attourny would take a certified credstick.

>Certified credsticks
>are meant to be used by legitimate citizens that possess normal
credstick
>accounts. It is simply a way of transferring funds when a credstick
reader
>isn't available.

Doesn't matter what they were meant for. They are widely used by
Shadowrunners- whether "the Man" likes it or not.

>
>For a court to issue a certified credstick to someone that would most
>likely require the services of an illegal "credstick laundering
operation"
>to "cash" it wouldn't make much sense.

The court doesn't have to issue a certified credstick. Your
"employer" can simply hand you one. You think a Shadowrunner is worried
about the legal way to go about doing things? "Denile" just ain't a
river in Egypt, is it? :)

Isn't it "illegal" (to a certain
>degree) to simply *be* SINless, especially if you actively attempting
to
>remain so?

AFAIK, it's not. But it does get make you very suspicious, and could
probably cost you a night in jail for some heavy questioning. And
depending on how much incriminating evidence you've left at previous
crime scenes, you could be released.

I doubt there would be any punishment, but if brought before a
>court for whatever reasons, I am sure that they would "insist" that you
>acquire a SIN ASAP.

That's when you call the ACLU. :)


-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com> <ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
"Fall seven times, stand up eight."
-Japanese Proverb


______________________________________________________
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Message no. 7
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Credsticks [was Re: SINless and the Law]
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 05:45:33 GMT
On Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:45:38 PST, The Vagabond wrote:

> >Yes, I believe a certified credstick is the same as a certified cheque,
> >postal money order, or just plain cash.
> >
> >Coming back on to topic, however, I don't believe a government court
> >would issue a certified credstick to someone without a SIN.
>
> Negative. If you are going to come back "on topic" come allll the
> way back. Where Gurth was saying that you couldn't pay for an
> attourney(I believe it was Gurth, anyway). And my point is, any
> attourny would take a certified credstick.

Yes he would. I didn't say that an attourney would never accept a
certified credstick :)

> >Certified credsticks
> >are meant to be used by legitimate citizens that possess normal
> >credstick accounts. It is simply a way of transferring funds when a
> >credstick reader isn't available.
>
> Doesn't matter what they were meant for. They are widely used by
> Shadowrunners- whether "the Man" likes it or not.

This is also true, but outside of the discussion I was trying to make.

> >For a court to issue a certified credstick to someone that would most
> >likely require the services of an illegal "credstick laundering
> >operation" to "cash" it wouldn't make much sense.
>
> The court doesn't have to issue a certified credstick. Your
> "employer" can simply hand you one. You think a Shadowrunner is worried
> about the legal way to go about doing things? "Denile" just ain't a
> river in Egypt, is it? :)

Bing! We have now landed on the main issue of what I was trying to discuss
before this thread changed headers (well, sort of). Let's just keep the
illegal MO's of Shadowrunners out of the conversation for a sec...

It all stemmed from the comment that it would be difficult to represent a
SINless individual before, during, and after a civil court preceding in a
case where the individual was unjustly assaulted.

I felt that for a SINless individual to even appear in court, providing him
with a SIN would be the first thing the law/government/whatever would do.
I do not believe it is clearly stated anywhere in the Shadowrun sourcebooks
what happens when a SINless individual is arrested or forced to go through
any form of complicated bureaucracy. The mere act of booking the
individual would require a SIN, as might a valid statement taken from that
individual for use in court. "At what point does the world of Shadowrun
insist that you have a SIN?", I guess is my question.

And if a SINless individual does win such a civil case and is awarded a sum
of money (any amount), the idea I was trying to make revolved around how
the court would award payment. While a certified credstick may be
perfectly legal for a person with a SIN to possess and use, how exactly
does a SINless individual "cash" one? Or are certified credsticks treated
as electronic versions of a non-refilable bag of money (ie: you take out a
little at a time until it is all gone)?

> Isn't it "illegal" (to a certain
> >degree) to simply *be* SINless, especially if you actively attempting
> >to remain so?
>
> AFAIK, it's not. But it does get make you very suspicious, and could
> probably cost you a night in jail for some heavy questioning. And
> depending on how much incriminating evidence you've left at previous
> crime scenes, you could be released.

With or without a brand new SIN? Since getting a SIN isn't supposed to be
that "awkward", and is good in the eyes of the government, why wouldn't
they insist that the individual be assigned a SIN?





James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";
ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

Mano au mano, the "Professor"
would kick MacGyver's ass.
Message no. 8
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Credsticks [was Re: SINless and the Law]
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:37:26 +1000
James Lindsay writes:
>Coming back on to topic, however, I don't believe a government court would
>issue a certified credstick to someone without a SIN. Certified credsticks
>are meant to be used by legitimate citizens that possess normal credstick
>accounts. It is simply a way of transferring funds when a credstick reader
>isn't available.


Scenario:

I'm a paranoid slot who doesn't have a bank account (I keep it all in a
biscuit tin in my personal safe at home).

I take you to court for defamation, and win. Let's say you called me a
paranoid slot and I thought that was slanderous, and the court agrees. They
issue damages of $10,000.

You write a check. I say "no, I don't take cheques! How do I know you have
enough cash in the account to cover that? Anyway, I don't have a bank
account, so I wouldn't be able to cash it. Give me money!"

You are required to give me that $10,000 in money. If I want to be picky, I
could say "No small change, and no note over $100". Back before the guv'mint
started printing the notes, I could say "hard currency only, no bank notes,
thanks".

(By the same token, if you won, you could refuse cash and demand a cheque,
requiring me to go to the bank and arrange for one).

>For a court to issue a certified credstick to someone that would most
>likely require the services of an illegal "credstick laundering operation"
>to "cash" it wouldn't make much sense. Isn't it "illegal" (to a
certain
>degree) to simply *be* SINless, especially if you actively attempting to
>remain so? I doubt there would be any punishment, but if brought before a
>court for whatever reasons, I am sure that they would "insist" that you
>acquire a SIN ASAP.


A court would not issue a certified credstick. They would order party A to
pay party B. It is party B who would specify the method of payment.

(Yeah, a court would require you to get a SIN. But they could _not_ force
you to get a credstick, as credsticks are bank accounts.)

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 9
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Credsticks [was Re: SINless and the Law]
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:26:48 +0100
The Vagabond said on 13:14/ 3 Mar 98...

[paying lawyers]
> Am I the only person who's heard of a certified credstick?

No, you're not. There could still be all kinds of nasty (illegal) things
tied to the money on that certified credstick, though.

Hmm... would possession of a certified credstick be illegal if you're
SINless? You can't open a bank account because the bank won't give you
one, but probably nobody would care aout SINless people having certified
credsticks, I think.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Now I've got to go away.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 10
From: The Vagabond <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Credsticks [was Re: SINless and the Law]
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 05:55:05 PST
>A court would not issue a certified credstick. They would order party A
to
>pay party B. It is party B who would specify the method of payment.
>
>(Yeah, a court would require you to get a SIN. But they could _not_
force
>you to get a credstick, as credsticks are bank accounts.)

A court today would pay the winner, and the loser would pay the court.
That way, it keeps the two parties as seperated as much as possible, and
also allows whomever is paying the opprotunity to pay the court back in
small increments, if he can't afford it all at once.
I don't see why a court of the UCAS would be any different.
And if the court is writing a check, then the winning party better
take it- lest he get no money. I'm sure a court of the UCAS would just
hand out a certified credstick(the 205X equivilant of a check).


-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com> <ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
"Fall seven times, stand up eight."
-Japanese Proverb


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Message no. 11
From: Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Credsticks [was Re: SINless and the Law]
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:08:28 -0500
>>Coming back on to topic, however, I don't believe a government court would
>>issue a certified credstick to someone without a SIN.

> Negative. If you are going to come back "on topic" come allll the
>way back. Where Gurth was saying that you couldn't pay for an
>attourney(I believe it was Gurth, anyway). And my point is, any
>attourny would take a certified credstick.

He would, but the original point is correct. If you do not have a SIN,
there is no way you could get a certified credstick without doing something
illegal. No back will issue you one without a SIN. If you were paid for
some sort of service with them, at the very least you have committed
tax-evasion and probably some immigration labor laws. Doesn't prevent the
SINless from giving it to the lawyer, but my point is that it's not
neccesarily the easiest task to aquire one.

Wordman
Message no. 12
From: The Vagabond <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Credsticks [was Re: SINless and the Law]
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:48:52 PST
>He would, but the original point is correct. If you do not have a SIN,
>there is no way you could get a certified credstick without doing
something
>illegal.

Wonderful. Now, your source? I don't recall reading that anywhere.

> No back will issue you one without a SIN. If you were paid for
>some sort of service with them, at the very least you have committed
>tax-evasion and probably some immigration labor laws. Doesn't prevent
the
>SINless from giving it to the lawyer, but my point is that it's not
>neccesarily the easiest task to aquire one.

Certified credsticks, I believe, are the Shadowrun world equivlant of
cash money- it's not traceable, and can change hands easily.



-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com> <ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
"Fall seven times, stand up eight."
-Japanese Proverb


______________________________________________________
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Message no. 13
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Credsticks [was Re: SINless and the Law]
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:51:24 +0100
The Vagabond said on 11:48/ 5 Mar 98...

> >He would, but the original point is correct. If you do not have a SIN,
> >there is no way you could get a certified credstick without doing something
> >illegal.
>
> Wonderful. Now, your source? I don't recall reading that anywhere.

I find that statement a bit strange as well. Unless receiving a certified
credstick is a crime in itself, obtaining one without doing something
illegal is easy enough: someone can give you one (for services rendered,
or whatever).

> Certified credsticks, I believe, are the Shadowrun world equivlant of
> cash money- it's not traceable, and can change hands easily.

It's still somewhat traceable -- IIRC it's Corporate Shadowfiles that
talks about this. It's been a time since I read it, but it makes sense
that the money that gets put onto the credstick gets flagged somewhere,
and that same money is flagged when the credstick is "cashed in". It would
be just the middle bit, when the money is actually on the stick, that's
difficult to track.

BTW, in my game certified credsticks are for a fixed amount of money --
you can put anything you want onto them, but once they're made you can
only write off the whole amount at once, and you can't add to it. Sort of
like giving someone a $100 note: you can't pay $1 with it unless you get
change.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
I want to see the ground give way, I want to watch it all go down.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 14
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Credsticks [was Re: SINless and the Law]
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:28:55 -0500
On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 09:51:24PM +0100, Gurth wrote:
> The Vagabond said on 11:48/ 5 Mar 98...
>
<SNIP>
> It's still somewhat traceable -- IIRC it's Corporate Shadowfiles that
> talks about this. It's been a time since I read it, but it makes sense
> that the money that gets put onto the credstick gets flagged somewhere,
> and that same money is flagged when the credstick is "cashed in". It would
> be just the middle bit, when the money is actually on the stick, that's
> difficult to track.
>
> BTW, in my game certified credsticks are for a fixed amount of money --
> you can put anything you want onto them, but once they're made you can
> only write off the whole amount at once, and you can't add to it. Sort of
> like giving someone a $100 note: you can't pay $1 with it unless you get
> change.
>
This is the way it works in my game as well. Corp Shadowfiles mentions
that basically SINed person, can go to the bank and get a certified
credit stick. Whoever they give it to, can use it just like cash
and its untraceable to them. However it still shows up in the banks
computer as Corp Suit A, transfered 10K to a certified stick.
Which may mean nothing or may mean he's engaged in something
slightly illegal. This is why scrip and bonds etc are mentioned.
Just because its not traceable to the runner, doesn't mean the Suit
wants the powers that be, to know he just created a cert stick for 50k
For other good SIN stuff, check out the GraveYard on the SR archive.
Its got a couple of good articles. (That I'm impatiently waiting
for the next installement of). :)


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Uh-Oh Toto, it doesn't look like we're gods anymore."
Message no. 15
From: Ashlocke <woneal@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Credsticks [was Re: SINless and the Law]
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 18:08:51 -0005
On 4 Mar 98 at 5:45, James Lindsay wrote:

> On Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:45:38 PST, The Vagabond wrote:
>
> >
> > The court doesn't have to issue a certified credstick. Your
> > "employer" can simply hand you one. You think a Shadowrunner is
worried
> > about the legal way to go about doing things? "Denile" just ain't a
> > river in Egypt, is it? :)
>
> Bing! We have now landed on the main issue of what I was trying to
> discuss before this thread changed headers (well, sort of). Let's just
> keep the illegal MO's of Shadowrunners out of the conversation for a
> sec...
>
> It all stemmed from the comment that it would be difficult to represent a
> SINless individual before, during, and after a civil court preceding in a
> case where the individual was unjustly assaulted.
>
> I felt that for a SINless individual to even appear in court, providing
> him with a SIN would be the first thing the law/government/whatever would
> do. I do not believe it is clearly stated anywhere in the Shadowrun
> sourcebooks what happens when a SINless individual is arrested or forced
> to go through any form of complicated bureaucracy. The mere act of
> booking the individual would require a SIN, as might a valid statement
> taken from that individual for use in court. "At what point does the
> world of Shadowrun insist that you have a SIN?", I guess is my question.

According to the Neo-Anarchist Guide to North America (NAGNA) the 14th
Amendment ratified in 2036 requires that all citizen of UCAS register for
a SIN. SINless individuals are treated as probationary citizens with
"sharply limited civil rights" and cannot vote. So, at the point of
birth, the UCAS "insists" you have a SIN. In the case of a SINless
individual being arrested, they would be processed and given a SIN. I
don't recall the lack of a SIN being a punishable crime... they just run
you through the system when they catch you.

>
> And if a SINless individual does win such a civil case and is awarded a
> sum of money (any amount), the idea I was trying to make revolved around
> how the court would award payment. While a certified credstick may be
> perfectly legal for a person with a SIN to possess and use, how exactly
> does a SINless individual "cash" one? Or are certified credsticks
> treated as electronic versions of a non-refilable bag of money (ie: you
> take out a little at a time until it is all gone)?

Certified credsticks are not issued by courts, they are issued by banks
or other monitary institutes at an average fee of 2% - 5% of the
total / max amount on the stick. Certified sticks can be reused, funds
being transferred to and from them, up to the fiscal limit for that type
of stick. There is no law stating that a SINless individual can't have a
certified stick. Banks will issue them to anyone with the cred, no
SIN required, though some institutions might keep files of people not
presenting a SIN and might notify the authorities of such incidents. They
are like bearer bonds, possession is ownership. (cf. Sprawl Sites or The
Neo-Anarchist Guide to Real Life)
--
@>->,-`---
Ashelock
o=<======-

GM's Theme: "I am the eye in the sky, looking at you, I can see your lies.
I am the maker of rules, dealing in fools, I can cheat you blind."

Further Reading

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