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Message no. 1
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Critical Hits
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 13:55:42 -0600
Or maybe another way to deal with bleeding and broken bones and
critical hits would be to make a weighted table for each wound level
based on the total of 2d6 or 3d6 (or whatever you want the range to
be) (if you want to get into this, that is :)

With a light wound you'd place basic wounds (ow, it hurts) near the
center of the curve (6,7,8) and the more drastic wounds (ow, the
bullet has lodged against your spine, you're fine for now but...) at
the edge of the curve (2,12).

If you want to get really nitpicky make up a table for each wound
level based on how the wound was caused (bullet, sword, blunt,
electrical, explosion, falling, etc).

You could make the tables as general (2d6 range) or as detailed (Xd6)
as you want.

I'm not going to make the tables, I'll leave that for someone else :)

-David
--
"Hold a true friend with both hands."
- Nigerian Proverb
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 2
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Critical Hits
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 16:28:29 -0500
On 9 Apr 98 at 13:55, David Buehrer wrote:

> I'm not going to make the tables, I'll leave that for someone else
> :)

Oh sure. Thanks. :)

Actually, I may look into doing this, and put the results on my
webpage, or give them to Adam for TSS. I would like some helpful
suggestions, though.

First of all; David, could you please send me a complilation of your
bleeding/knockdown rules? I have saved all the messages, but it would
be nice to have them all together. If you can, add examples. (I like
your examples). :)

Secondly, I would like suggestions from the rest of you, and feedback
if I create something. I won't have the capability to playtest this
stuff myself.

Thirdly, and most importantly, is this worth pursuing? How many of
you would use such a system? Just wondering if I'm spinning my
wheels.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
- DREKHEAD - |"Let's face it. Sometimes your a
- drekhead@***.net - | pigeon, and sometimes your the
*-ShadowRN - GridSec Division-* | statue."
"To Protect and To Serve" |-Unknown
=================================================================
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/6990/index.html
Message no. 3
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Critical Hits
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 08:25:16 -0600
Drekhead wrote:
/
/ On 9 Apr 98 at 13:55, David Buehrer wrote:
/
/ > I'm not going to make the tables, I'll leave that for someone else
/ > :)
/
/ Oh sure. Thanks. :)

:) see below

/ Secondly, I would like suggestions from the rest of you, and feedback
/ if I create something. I won't have the capability to playtest this
/ stuff myself.

This is something I worked up from an article on the application of
the Red Cross wound classification rules to penetrating missile
injuries (bullets and fragments) during the Gulf War.

There are three basic types of wounds: Soft Tissue, Fracture, and
Vital. The wounds are assigned grades (1,2, or 3) based on their
severity.

The severity of a wound is graded by how large the Entry and/or eXit
wounds are (E+X<10cm or E+X>orcm), if the wound cavity will admit
2 fingers (significant damage to surrounding tissue), if there is a
fracture (and if the fracture is significant), and if a vital
structure is damaged (breach of dura, pleura or peritoneum, or major
vessel damage).

The wounds, in order of severity, are:

1 ST: E+X<10cm
2 ST: E+X<10cm, Cavity
1 F: E+X<10cm, Fracture
3 ST: E+X>cm, Cavity
2 F: E+X<10cm, Significant Fracture
1 V: E+X<10cm, Vital
3 F: E+X>cm, Significant Fracture
2 V: E+X<10cm, Vital, Cavity
1 VF: E+X<10cm, Significant Fracture, Vital
3 V: E+X>cm, Vital, Cavity
2 VF: E+X<10cm, Significant Fracture, Vital
3 VF: E+X>cm, Significant Fracture, Vital

This can be translated as:

Ow
Ow, it really hurts
Ow, I think I broke something
God this hurts
Wow, bones really are white
Great, I'm bleeding like a stuck pig
Anybody seen my knee?
What's that sucking noise?
Forget about my knee and help me stop the bleeding
Help me put my intestines back in
Hey, I think a rib plugged the whole in my lungs
Does my heart look okay to you? Cuz something doesn't feel right

Simple 2d6 tables could look like:

Light Wound
2 1V
3 2F
4 3ST
5 1F
6 2ST
7 1ST
8 2ST
9 2F
10 3ST
11 2F
12 1V

Moderate Wound
2 2V
3 3F
4 1V
5 2F
6 3ST
7 1F
8 3ST
9 2F
10 1V
11 3F
12 2V

Serious Wound
2 3V
3 1VF
4 2V
5 3F
6 1V
7 2F
8 1V
9 3F
10 2V
11 1VF
12 3V

Deadly Wound
2 3VF
3 2VF
4 3V
5 1VF
6 2V
7 3F
8 2V
9 1VF
10 3V
11 2VF
12 3VF

Combine them with a hit location table, fill in the details, and viola!

:)

-David
--
"Hold a true friend with both hands."
- Nigerian Proverb
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 4
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Critical Hits
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 10:53:26 -0500
On 10 Apr 98 at 8:25, David Buehrer wrote:

> Combine them with a hit location table, fill in the details, and
> viola!

Thats great David, thanks. Actually, though, I wasn't going to
incorporate hit location. I wanted to maintain the abstractness of
the Shadowrun system. The location of the wound should be roleplayed
based on the situation, and left open to the GM, IMHO. I think
the critical hit could work without it, and still have the same
feel. What do you think?

--

-----------------------------------------------------------------
- DREKHEAD - |"Let's face it. Sometimes your a
- drekhead@***.net - | pigeon, and sometimes your the
*-ShadowRN - GridSec Division-* | statue."
"To Protect and To Serve" |-Unknown
=================================================================
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/6990/index.html
Message no. 5
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Critical Hits
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:01:05 -0600
Drekhead wrote:
/
/ On 10 Apr 98 at 8:25, David Buehrer wrote:
/
/ > Combine them with a hit location table, fill in the details, and
/ > viola!
/
/ Thats great David, thanks. Actually, though, I wasn't going to
/ incorporate hit location. I wanted to maintain the abstractness of
/ the Shadowrun system. The location of the wound should be roleplayed
/ based on the situation, and left open to the GM, IMHO. I think
/ the critical hit could work without it, and still have the same
/ feel. What do you think?

With SR's system hit location tables are tricky because of the way
armor works (protecting the person overall instead of specific
locations). I think using GM judgement would work fine. Or, you
could let the players decide were their hit (like letting the child
pick their punishment) <EGMG>.

-David
--
"Hold a true friend with both hands."
- Nigerian Proverb
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 6
From: Wafflemeisters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Critical Hits
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 05:01:44 -0500
> (David Buehrer , Fri 9:25)

> This is something I worked up from an article on the application of
> the Red Cross wound classification rules to penetrating missile
> injuries (bullets and fragments) during the Gulf War.

Is there a way I couldget this-is it a net / web resource, or something
I can find in the library? I'm doing some related stuff, and hard info
would be nice.

>
> There are three basic types of wounds: Soft Tissue, Fracture, and
> Vital. The wounds are assigned grades (1,2, or 3) based on their
> severity.
>
> The severity of a wound is graded by how large the Entry and/or eXit
> wounds are (E+X<10cm or E+X>orcm), if the wound cavity will admit
> 2 fingers (significant damage to surrounding tissue), if there is a
> fracture (and if the fracture is significant), and if a vital
> structure is damaged (breach of dura, pleura or peritoneum, or major
> vessel damage).
>

How's that "cavity" bit? Wouln't ANY E=X>10cm admit 2 fingers? Is that
diameter?

<snip listing of numbers>

> This can be translated as:
>
> Ow
> Ow, it really hurts
> Ow, I think I broke something
> God this hurts
> Wow, bones really are white
> Great, I'm bleeding like a stuck pig
> Anybody seen my knee?
> What's that sucking noise?
> Forget about my knee and help me stop the bleeding
> Help me put my intestines back in
> Hey, I think a rib plugged the whole in my lungs
> Does my heart look okay to you? Cuz something doesn't feel right
>

ROTFLOL! (ok, maybe I DO have a sick sense of humor)

> Simple 2d6 tables could look like:
>
> Light Wound
> 2 1V
> 3 2F
> 4 3ST
> 5 1F
> 6 2ST
> 7 1ST
> 8 2ST
> 9 2F
> 10 3ST
> 11 2F
> 12 1V

I was under the impression these all would be nastier than a light wound
(even a 2.5 cm entry and exit in a non vital are with no bone damage or
"finger poking" cavity sounds pretty nasty- like a knife through your
sholder! Am I misunderstanding the descriptions?)

Also, it would be more fun to replace the codes with your "equivalent
translations".

<snip remaining tablesand guidelines>

Its nice to know that a moderate wound it a biggesh hole with likely
tissue or blood vessle damage, but I don't see a need for anything like
a table, if you can just wing a description that fits the
circumstances. Genral rates of bleeding, and possible tissue loss,
might be nice to know for forensics / ritual puposes, though.

-Mongoose

> ShadowRN GridSec
> email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
> http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 7
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Critical Hits
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 15:19:42 -0600
Wafflemeisters wrote:
/
/ > (David Buehrer , Fri 9:25)
/
/ > This is something I worked up from an article on the application of
/ > the Red Cross wound classification rules to penetrating missile
/ > injuries (bullets and fragments) during the Gulf War.
/
/ Is there a way I couldget this-is it a net / web resource, or something
/ I can find in the library? I'm doing some related stuff, and hard info
/ would be nice.

The name of the article I worked from is "Gulf war wounds:
application of the Red Cross wound classification" from Injury:
International Journal of the Care of the Injured (1993) Vol. 24/No.
9.

In the reference section it mentions the TRISS method, Triage Index,
Trauma Score, and the Hostile Action Casualty System (HACS).

A good web resource for finding articles is UnCover. I can't
remember the URL but there's a link from www.carl.org.

/ > There are three basic types of wounds: Soft Tissue, Fracture, and
/ > Vital. The wounds are assigned grades (1,2, or 3) based on their
/ > severity.
/ >
/ > The severity of a wound is graded by how large the Entry and/or eXit
/ > wounds are (E+X<10cm or E+X>orcm), if the wound cavity will admit
/ > 2 fingers (significant damage to surrounding tissue), if there is a
/ > fracture (and if the fracture is significant), and if a vital
/ > structure is damaged (breach of dura, pleura or peritoneum, or major
/ > vessel damage).
/
/ How's that "cavity" bit? Wouln't ANY E=X>10cm admit 2 fingers? Is that
/ diameter?

I'm not sure. I figured it was the difference between a clean wound
that has a measurable diameter on the surface but the surrounding
tissue is still solid. For example, I've heard stories where after
stabbing someone with a knife the surrounding tissue tightened up in
response to the wound (to prevent bleeding) and the knife couldn't be
pulled back out. Also, I've seen gunshot wounds to deer (a friend's
father was a hunter) where the tissue surrounding the bullet hole was
pulped from the energy transfer. The bullet hole itself was small
but the damage it caused was significant enough that the surrounding
tissue was turned to jello.

/ > This can be translated as:
/ >
[snip: translations]
/
/ ROTFLOL! (ok, maybe I DO have a sick sense of humor)

:) Good. I'm not alone.

/ > Simple 2d6 tables could look like:
/ >
/ > Light Wound
/ > 2 1V
/ > 3 2F
/ > 4 3ST
/ > 5 1F
/ > 6 2ST
/ > 7 1ST
/ > 8 2ST
/ > 9 1F
/ > 10 3ST
/ > 11 2F
/ > 12 1V
/
/ I was under the impression these all would be nastier than a light wound
/ (even a 2.5 cm entry and exit in a non vital are with no bone damage or
/ "finger poking" cavity sounds pretty nasty- like a knife through your
/ sholder! Am I misunderstanding the descriptions?)

<checks BBB> You're right. Light wounds have a base time to heal of 24
hours. I'm gonna have to rethink this. Basically there shouldn't be
a critical hit table for a light wound. Got that Drek?

/ Also, it would be more fun to replace the codes with your "equivalent
/ translations".

Okay :)

/ <snip remaining tablesand guidelines>
/
/ Its nice to know that a moderate wound it a biggesh hole with likely
/ tissue or blood vessle damage, but I don't see a need for anything like
/ a table, if you can just wing a description that fits the
/ circumstances. Genral rates of bleeding, and possible tissue loss,
/ might be nice to know for forensics / ritual puposes, though.

I agree. I want to come up with something that will give GMs and
Players a basic idea of what type of wound their character might
possibly have and use that information for roleplaying.

-David
--
"Hold a true friend with both hands."
- Nigerian Proverb
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 8
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Critical Hits
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 17:17:54 -0500
On 11 Apr 98 at 15:19, David Buehrer wrote:

> <checks BBB> You're right. Light wounds have a base time to heal
> of 24 hours. I'm gonna have to rethink this. Basically there
> shouldn't be a critical hit table for a light wound. Got that Drek?

Yea, I'm trying to take all this in.

> I agree. I want to come up with something that will give GMs and
> Players a basic idea of what type of wound their character might
> possibly have and use that information for roleplaying.

I guess enthusiasm for the critical hit table has waned. :) I'm still
going to look into it, though. Just may not persue it as hard as I
initially intended. Thanks for all the input, everyone.

--

-----------------------------------------------------------------
- DREKHEAD - |"Let's face it. Sometimes you're
- drekhead@***.net - | the pigeon, and sometimes
*-ShadowRN - GridSec Division-* | you're the statue."
"To Protect and To Serve" | -Unknown
=================================================================
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/6990/index.html

Further Reading

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Thwap!