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Message no. 1
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Critter armor and spells
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 20:22:40 -0700
You'll have to forgive me, I'm at work and just thought of this. My
books aren't with me, so I can't give any page numbers or such, but
here's what I was thinking:

I know when resisting physical (Body) spells, a character with dermal
armor is able to add the dice for the augmentation to his resistance
test. Essence was paid for the cyberware and thus is recognized as
part of the target's aura or body.

Would the same go for critter armor? It is a natural part of their
body. I know it's also stated that dual-planer creatures get their
armor on both the physical and astral planes. The thing is, critter
armor doesn't actually add to the body rating as dermal armor does. I
also can't think of a specific critter that is stated as having dermal
armor; though I know for some, their armor would make more sense as
dermal.

I myself haven't been adding armor dice when resisting spells with a
critters body. The thought just came to me and I thought I'd bounce it
around the list.

Anyways, since all the other critter armor threads were going on, I
thought I'd bring this up and start my own. :o)

===
@>--,--'--- Loki

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- A. C. Clarke

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/


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Message no. 2
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Critter armor and spells
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 14:00:49 -0600
Loki wrote:
|
| You'll have to forgive me, I'm at work and just thought of this. My
| books aren't with me, so I can't give any page numbers or such, but
| here's what I was thinking:
|
| I know when resisting physical (Body) spells, a character with dermal
| armor is able to add the dice for the augmentation to his resistance
| test. Essence was paid for the cyberware and thus is recognized as
| part of the target's aura or body.
|
| Would the same go for critter armor? It is a natural part of their
| body. I know it's also stated that dual-planer creatures get their
| armor on both the physical and astral planes. The thing is, critter
| armor doesn't actually add to the body rating as dermal armor does. I
| also can't think of a specific critter that is stated as having dermal
| armor; though I know for some, their armor would make more sense as
| dermal.

But, dermal plating doesn't count as armor per say. It just adds to
Body. Critter armor on the other hand is just that, armor. It
doesn't add to the critter's body. I can justify a critter getting
it's full armor rating vs physical combat spell though.

/If/ you use a house rule whereby critters get to add their armor to
their body when resisting damage, then that's another story.

Question: since a critter's armor is natural, would a critter with
hardened armor get the same level of defense agains physical combat
spells as he would against any other physical attack? I.e., if a
juggernaut with it's 8 armor is hit by a force 6 power bolt would the
bolt bounce right off?

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 3
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Critter armor and spells
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 13:14:58 -0700
| Question: since a critter's armor is natural, would a critter with
| hardened armor get the same level of defense agains physical combat
| spells as he would against any other physical attack? I.e., if a
| juggernaut with it's 8 armor is hit by a force 6 power bolt would the
| bolt bounce right off?

I would say no because powerbolt doesn't give it's target any armor to
stage down, the spell just grounds out through the aura. If the spell was
acid stream however then the armor would apply.

If you are counting armor in with the body then the creature would get more
dice, but the hardened armor wouldn't stop a combat spell IMHO.

-Caric


Word to the wise... Never anger a dragon, for you are crunchy, and would
be good with brie!!!

-Karl Teranssen av Drakkar
Message no. 4
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Critter armor and spells
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 17:13:58 -0700
---Caric wrote:
>
> I would say no because powerbolt doesn't give it's target any armor
to
> stage down, the spell just grounds out through the aura. If the
spell was
> acid stream however then the armor would apply.

However, if you powerbolt a Street Sammy with dermal armor, that
dermal armor is added to his body (your T#) and he gets those dice to
roll in his resistance test. That was my point.

My original question was from that fact that IMHO some critter armor
would seem to me to be more akin to dermal plating than wearing an
armor jacket. <shrug>

===
@>--,--'--- Loki

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- A. C. Clarke

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
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Message no. 5
From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Critter armor and spells
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 22:39:29 EDT
On Thu, 8 May 1997 14:00:49 -0600 David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
writes:

>Question: since a critter's armor is natural, would a critter with
>hardened armor get the same level of defense agains physical combat
>spells as he would against any other physical attack? I.e., if a
>juggernaut with it's 8 armor is hit by a force 6 power bolt would the
>bolt bounce right off?

Would you allow someone with Orthoskin (at a sufficient level to grant
the bonus to impact and ballistic) use that against combat spells, by
reducing the force? I'd guess your answer would be "no"... because it's
ARMOR, and not BODY. Same goes for the critter. Also remember the
descriptions of how physical spells burn from the inside/aura OUT (which
is why they bypass armor).

Sum of my opinions:
*Armor can be used versus physical combat spells? NO.

*Armor used vs. manipulation spells? Yes (but probably only at 1/2,
just like normal).. could
even apply the Hardened Armor rule if force is less than
adjusted armor value.

*Armor used on Astral Plane? (yeah, we didn't discuss this, but the
Grimmy does)..YES if
dual natured... read Grimmy...poses interesting philosophical
questions about #1, but I'll
ignore them for the sake of sanity. Besides... does something
with a body of 15 need
MORE armor versus spells?

*Do Critters get to add 1/2 armor to their body rolls? Only if you
think they should be
tougher in your game.


~Tim
Message no. 6
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Critter armor and spells
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 21:24:56 -0700
===
@>--,--'--- Loki

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- A. C. Clarke

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/


---Tim P Cooper wrote:
>
> I'd guess your answer would be "no"... because it's
> ARMOR, and not BODY. Same goes for the critter. Also remember the
> descriptions of how physical spells burn from the inside/aura OUT
(which
> is why they bypass armor).

I'll keep playing devil's advocate. If this is true, why does someone
get to add the dermal plating dice to his damage resistance test for
physical spells. I can't remember book/page#, but I know it's stated
that sense essence was paid for the cyberware it's recognized as part
of the aura/body. The dermal plating is on the outter layer of their
body as well, isn't it? :o)

Also, I must admit your example of comparing orthoskin to critter
armor makes some sense.

@>--,--'--- Loki

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- A. C. Clarke

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
Message no. 7
From: "Boyd Stephen Smith, Jr." <gilmeth@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Critter armor and spells
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 08:06:51 -0500
From: Loki [SMTP:daddyjim@**********.COM]
Subject: Re: Critter armor and spells

| of the aura/body. The dermal plating is on the outter layer of their
| body as well, isn't it? :o)

IIRC, dermal plating is placed below the skin and possibly
even the first layer of muscles. It isn't blatantly visible. My
ruling on this would be that if the critter armor is described
as even tough hide, count as dermal plating (add to body
for all test except healing). If the armor is described as an
exoskeleton or external plate etc. then, use it as armor as
normal. Don't any to body, use to decrease power of attack,
apply hardening rules normally for that. I don't think that I
would ever consider "toughened hide" as hardened, so you
don't get into the street sams trying to get hardened dermal
plating.

| Also, I must admit your example of comparing orthoskin to critter
| armor makes some sense.

That makes some sense, I don't know too much about
orthoskin though so I have to add that I thought it works
pretty much like tougher dermal plating (add to body for all
test except heal). Anyway, that's my 2¥


Twinkie
gilmeth@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/3759/
ICQ UIN: 514984
Sitebuilder Number: 531896

Do NOT use this or any other of my e-mail addresses in a for-profit =
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listed at http://www.rahul.net/starowl/email.html
Message no. 8
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Critter armor and spells
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 10:52:51 -0400
IIRC, dermal plating is placed below the skin and possibly
even the first layer of muscles. It isn't blatantly visible.

You must've missed the first edition SR blue book.
There's a great pic in there showing what dermal plating looks like.
It's VERY obvious.
Large bulky plates that distort the body quite a bit.

Of course this isn't to say that in your world there may be several types
of DP, and that some might be more discrete.

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"Heads I tell the truth and Tails I lie ..."
Message no. 9
From: "Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Subject: Re: Critter armor and spells
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 18:12:14 +0100
> I know when resisting physical (Body) spells, a character with dermal
> armor is able to add the dice for the augmentation to his resistance
> test. Essence was paid for the cyberware and thus is recognized as
> part of the target's aura or body.

IMHO, thats the point: Dermal Plating does not count as a 'natural'
augmentation the way bioware or magic do...
So no way I'll add dermal plating as defensive dice against physical
combat spells. Maybe against their elemental effects, but thats
something else entirely.
The grimoire states somewhere that combat spells (physical
and mana) manifest from the victims interior, so no armor can help...

Just rethink what dermal plating actually is..nothing but additinal
bulk that may stop bullets or blades- how could this protect you from
magic?

ss
Message no. 10
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Critter armor and spells
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 15:38:00 +0000
On 7 May 97 at 20:22, Loki wrote:
[snip]
> I know when resisting physical (Body) spells, a character with dermal
> armor is able to add the dice for the augmentation to his resistance
> test. Essence was paid for the cyberware and thus is recognized as
> part of the target's aura or body.
> Would the same go for critter armor? It is a natural part of their
> body. I know it's also stated that dual-planer creatures get their
> armor on both the physical and astral planes. The thing is, critter
> armor doesn't actually add to the body rating as dermal armor does. I
> also can't think of a specific critter that is stated as having dermal
> armor; though I know for some, their armor would make more sense as
> dermal.
We have two kinds of armor in SR: a) Armor like armored jackets,
Orthoskin, or critter armor, that reduces the power of attacks, and
b) armor like dermal armor (or dermal sheathing) that adds dice to your
body to help you resist damage.

Type a) armor helps against physical manipulations only, that act much
like a bullet (something physical races toward the victim). SRII,
p. 129: "If the cast spell was a damaging manipulation spell, then
this test is actually a Damage Resistance Test, as in Ranged
Combat."

Type b) armor doesn't reduce the power of an attack, but helps reucing
it by 'reinforcing the body'. Although I don't know a quote that states
it, I suppose extra body dice can be used to reduce any kind of spell's
damage.

Critter armor is type a: it reduces the power of an attack. It does not
offer extra body dice. Not against bullets, not against spells. It just
reduces the power of dam.manips.

Hope that makes sens... (It's 6:20 am :-( )
Sascha
--
+---___---------+------------------------------------+------------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |Things that try to look |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@ | like things often do |
| \___ __/ | Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.de | look more like things |
|==== \_/ ======|*Wearing hats is just a way of life*| than things. Well known|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | fact. - E.Weatherwax |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary ----(T.Pratchett)+
Message no. 11
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Critter armor and spells
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 09:22:09 -0600
Sascha Pabst wrote:
|
| Type a) armor helps against physical manipulations only, that act much
| like a bullet (something physical races toward the victim). SRII,
| p. 129: "If the cast spell was a damaging manipulation spell, then
| this test is actually a Damage Resistance Test, as in Ranged
| Combat."
|
| Type b) armor doesn't reduce the power of an attack, but helps reucing
| it by 'reinforcing the body'. Although I don't know a quote that states
| it, I suppose extra body dice can be used to reduce any kind of spell's
| damage.
|
| Critter armor is type a: it reduces the power of an attack. It does not
| offer extra body dice. Not against bullets, not against spells. It just
| reduces the power of dam.manips.

But, vs physical combat spells a critter with hardened armor rolls
dice "equal to its Body, plus one-half any (critter) armor" (from the BB,
page 109)

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 12
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Critter armor and spells
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 22:50:56 +0000
On 11 May 97 at 9:22, David Buehrer wrote:
[snip my explanation on different effects of armor]
> But, vs physical combat spells a critter with hardened armor rolls
> dice "equal to its Body, plus one-half any (critter) armor" (from the BB,
> page 109)
Hm, I stand corrected. Hadn't seen that. OTOH, when casting a physicl
combat spell against a critter, you don't have a TN of 8, but the
critter's body dice. Plus, the reference refers to hardened (vehicle)
armor, not "any" kind of armor.

Hm, yeah, maybe I'd allow half the hardened_ armor to the Spell
Resistance Check, as the hardened armor of a critter does offer (uh-
how do elaborate speakers say?) enhanced structural integrity (?) to
the poor critter's body.

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | Hate is a force of |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de|attraction. Hate is|
| \___ __/ | | just love with its |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | back turned. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | - T.Pratchett, |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary ------Masquerade-+
Message no. 13
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Critter armor and spells
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 05:06:50 -0700
Loki Spouted:

| I'll keep playing devil's advocate. If this is true, why does someone
| get to add the dermal plating dice to his damage resistance test for
| physical spells. I can't remember book/page#, but I know it's stated
| that sense essence was paid for the cyberware it's recognized as part
| of the aura/body. The dermal plating is on the outter layer of their
| body as well, isn't it? :o)

So because critter armor is on the outside you get to add it? When is the
last time you got to subtract your dermal plating rating from the power of
an attack? Apples and oranges my friend, apples and oranges. :)

-Caric


Word to the wise... Never anger a dragon, for you are crunchy, and would
be good with brie!!!

-Karl Teranssen av Drakkar
Message no. 14
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Critter armor and spells
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 05:03:05 -0700
| However, if you powerbolt a Street Sammy with dermal armor, that
| dermal armor is added to his body (your T#) and he gets those dice to
| roll in his resistance test. That was my point.

True, but dermal armor adds directly to your body, it does not add any
armor value like say orthoskin does.

| My original question was from that fact that IMHO some critter armor
| would seem to me to be more akin to dermal plating than wearing an
| armor jacket. <shrug>

Nah. It's like dermal plating in that it is rigid and implanted, but
vehicle armor isn't factored into spell resistance just because it's
hardened.

-Caric


Word to the wise... Never anger a dragon, for you are crunchy, and would
be good with brie!!!

-Karl Teranssen av Drakkar
Message no. 15
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Critter armor and spells
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 07:18:16 -0600
Caric wrote:
|
| Loki Spouted:
|
| | I'll keep playing devil's advocate. If this is true, why does someone
| | get to add the dermal plating dice to his damage resistance test for
| | physical spells. I can't remember book/page#, but I know it's stated
| | that sense essence was paid for the cyberware it's recognized as part
| | of the aura/body. The dermal plating is on the outter layer of their
| | body as well, isn't it? :o)
|
| So because critter armor is on the outside you get to add it? When is the
| last time you got to subtract your dermal plating rating from the power of
| an attack? Apples and oranges my friend, apples and oranges. :)

I think Loki's key point was that character's get their dermal
plating when resisting physical spells because they paid the essence
for it (they role their body plus their bonus from the dermal
plating). So, since a critter's armor is part of it, do critters
subtract their armor from the power of a physical combat spell? I'm
inclined to say yes.

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 16
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Critter armor and spells
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 07:25:53 -0600
Caric wrote:
|
| | My original question was from that fact that IMHO some critter armor
| | would seem to me to be more akin to dermal plating than wearing an
| | armor jacket. <shrug>
|
| Nah. It's like dermal plating in that it is rigid and implanted, but
| vehicle armor isn't factored into spell resistance just because it's
| hardened.

Okay, I'll bite. Then why is vehicle armor factored into spell
resistance (see page 109 BB)?

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 17
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Critter armor and spells
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 07:23:46 -0600
Sascha Pabst wrote:
|
| On 11 May 97 at 9:22, David Buehrer wrote:
| [snip my explanation on different effects of armor]
| > But, vs physical combat spells a critter with hardened armor rolls
| > dice "equal to its Body, plus one-half any (critter) armor" (from the BB,
| > page 109)
| Hm, I stand corrected. Hadn't seen that. OTOH, when casting a physicl
| combat spell against a critter, you don't have a TN of 8, but the
| critter's body dice. Plus, the reference refers to hardened (vehicle)
| armor, not "any" kind of armor.
|
| Hm, yeah, maybe I'd allow half the hardened_ armor to the Spell
| Resistance Check, as the hardened armor of a critter does offer (uh-
| how do elaborate speakers say?) enhanced structural integrity (?) to
| the poor critter's body.

I'm going to start using the following house rule: critter armor (hardened
or otherwise) is subtracted from the power of physical combat spells when
resisting damage. The way I see it is that the armor of the critter is
living and has a counterpart in the critters astral form, which adds to
it's defense vs combat spells.

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 18
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Critter armor and spells
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 16:28:22 GMT
David Buehrer writes
>
> I'm going to start using the following house rule: critter armor (hardened
> or otherwise) is subtracted from the power of physical combat spells when
> resisting damage. The way I see it is that the armor of the critter is
> living and has a counterpart in the critters astral form, which adds to
> it's defense vs combat spells.
>
I don't like that at all. Nothing, absolutely nothing but wards
subtracts from the force of combat spells because they ground into
the aura from inside the target so affecting all of it equally. Wards
are noted as providing hard armour vs all spell types. I could
understand some cases where for very magical creatures you might feel
include to reduce the spell resistence by 1 or 2, i have used things
as nasty as 'resistence TN = 1/2 force' to simulate 'Mystic armour'
[ED concept] but considering the likely force of spells this is
nothing like taking the armour rating off (Ed critters can get armour
ratings of 30+ equivalent)
I could see a point for adding all the armour score not 1/2 to the
body roll maybe, but critters already have an 'i'm immune to magic!'
power, its called 'Magical resitance' which adds ther essence to
thier defences as if they had their essence in shielding dice, yes
Willpower 10, Essence 12 with magical resistance critters are a REAL
pain to hurt! Its body is pretty similar.

Mark
Message no. 19
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Critter armor and spells
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 16:34:02 GMT
David Buehrer writes
> |
> | Nah. It's like dermal plating in that it is rigid and implanted, but
> | vehicle armor isn't factored into spell resistance just because it's
> | hardened.
>
> Okay, I'll bite. Then why is vehicle armor factored into spell
> resistance (see page 109 BB)?
>
As i recall the rules vehicles get.
dice = body + 1/2 armour same as against bullets.
TN : combat spells : force
Damaging manipulations : force - armour
and i use full not 1/2 vehicle armour for true vehicle targets
(as opposed to critters or PC's in milspec armour) Yes this does make
throwing damaging manipulations at Juggernauts or banshee LAV's a
total waste of time :)

The armour affects dice to resist because it increases the vehicles
structural integrity, hence its ability to withstand punishment. Also
looking at the likely body dice of vehicles it gives the poor things
a chance, even seen powerbolt vs ford americar? really funny, so you
need 8's to hit, it doesn't have enough dice to really affect the
outcome! at low force ratings cars can be more susceptible that
pedestrians in some cases! (appart form a bit of TN)

Mark
Message no. 20
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Critter armor and spells
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 09:58:43 -0600
Mark Steedman wrote:
|
| David Buehrer writes
| >
| > I'm going to start using the following house rule: critter armor (hardened
| > or otherwise) is subtracted from the power of physical combat spells when
| > resisting damage. The way I see it is that the armor of the critter is
| > living and has a counterpart in the critters astral form, which adds to
| > it's defense vs combat spells.
| >
| I don't like that at all. Nothing, absolutely nothing but wards
| subtracts from the force of combat spells because they ground into
| the aura from inside the target so affecting all of it equally. Wards
| are noted as providing hard armour vs all spell types. I could
| understand some cases where for very magical creatures you might feel
| include to reduce the spell resistence by 1 or 2, i have used things
| as nasty as 'resistence TN = 1/2 force' to simulate 'Mystic armour'
| [ED concept] but considering the likely force of spells this is
| nothing like taking the armour rating off (Ed critters can get armour
| ratings of 30+ equivalent)

I meant to write "I'm thinking of using the following house rule" and
then ask for feedback. But it turned out fine anyway.

Good point about the wards. I posted this when I wasn't quite awake
yet and hadn't thought it through. Upon reflection the rules are
fine as is (concerning critter armor :). I no longer see it "that
natural armor should be applied", but as "it is the nature of combat
spells to bypass armor" with hardened armor boosting resistance to
damage but not affecting the spell per se. I guess that's the crux
of the arguement, that armor doesn't slow down combat spells at all,
but like Sascha said hardened armor adds to the structural integrity
of the target.

| I could see a point for adding all the armour score not 1/2 to the
| body roll maybe, but critters already have an 'i'm immune to magic!'
| power, its called 'Magical resitance' which adds ther essence to
| thier defences as if they had their essence in shielding dice, yes
| Willpower 10, Essence 12 with magical resistance critters are a REAL
| pain to hurt! Its body is pretty similar.

Again, good point. Now imagine your mutant juggernaut with Magical
Resistance :):):):)

Thanks,
-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 21
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Critter armor and spells
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 11:13:37 -0700
| IIRC, dermal plating is placed below the skin and possibly
| even the first layer of muscles. It isn't blatantly visible. My
| ruling on this would be that if the critter armor is described
| as even tough hide, count as dermal plating (add to body
| for all test except healing). If the armor is described as an
| exoskeleton or external plate etc. then, use it as armor as
| normal. Don't any to body, use to decrease power of attack,
| apply hardening rules normally for that. I don't think that I
| would ever consider "toughened hide" as hardened, so you
| don't get into the street sams trying to get hardened dermal
| plating.

I believe that dermal plating is extremely visible. I recall seing some
illustrations which clearly show the plates "sown," for lack of a better
term, into the outer layer of someones skin. The higher the rating the
more obvious it is. Also the only attacks that dermal armor reduces the
power of are flechette type attacks, otherwise it's just bulking up the
body of the person/creature.

| | Also, I must admit your example of comparing orthoskin to critter
| | armor makes some sense.
|
| That makes some sense, I don't know too much about
| orthoskin though so I have to add that I thought it works
| pretty much like tougher dermal plating (add to body for all
| test except heal).

Orthoskin just adds impact armor, or a little ballistic at high levels. It
won't add anything to your body, but it is cumulitive with other armor
worn.

-Caric


Word to the wise... Never anger a dragon, for you are crunchy, and would
be good with brie!!!

-Karl Teranssen av Drakkar
Message no. 22
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Critter armor and spells
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 11:17:01 -0700
| Of course this isn't to say that in your world there may be several types
| of DP, and that some might be more discrete.

Certainly there is nothing discrete in your world Steve...and the johnson
is always on the up and up, right?

Caric
"I came all the way, from Taipai today..."
Message no. 23
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Critter armor and spells
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 15:14:23 -0700
David said:

| I think Loki's key point was that character's get their dermal
| plating when resisting physical spells because they paid the essence
| for it (they role their body plus their bonus from the dermal
| plating). So, since a critter's armor is part of it, do critters
| subtract their armor from the power of a physical combat spell? I'm
| inclined to say yes.


It's true that they do, but by your logic does that mean that if said
critter was hit with manabolt that they would use their armor because it
does physical damage? Or death touch?

-Caric


Word to the wise... Never anger a dragon, for you are crunchy, and would
be good with brie!!!

-Karl Teranssen av Drakkar
Message no. 24
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Critter armor and spells
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 07:28:10 -0600
Caric wrote:
|
| David said:
|
| | I think Loki's key point was that character's get their dermal
| | plating when resisting physical spells because they paid the essence
| | for it (they role their body plus their bonus from the dermal
| | plating). So, since a critter's armor is part of it, do critters
| | subtract their armor from the power of a physical combat spell? I'm
| | inclined to say yes.
|
| It's true that they do, but by your logic does that mean that if said
| critter was hit with manabolt that they would use their armor because it
| does physical damage? Or death touch?

My mind has since been changed. In my game the only time critter
armor affects spells is the added resistance dice from hardened armor
vs combat spells and applied vs manipulation spells, per the rules.

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~

Further Reading

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Thwap!