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Message no. 1
From: "Est sularas oth Mithas..." <9032754@**.IE>
Subject: Critter combat
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 92 13:54:00 GMT
The critter gets his reaction rating for his attacks.

This brings a question to mind

If a mage is using the shapechange spell but also has "increase reaction +3"
spell locked , what rating does he use for unarmed combat while in critter
form

The grimoire says that when shapechanged the reaction is the subjects INT
+ the critters normal reaction.
Does this mean that the mage gets
critters reaction+mages INT + any increase reaction spells locked

let me give you an example.

take a mage with an int of 9 ( base 6 , increase int +3 locked) , lets say he
has increase reaction +3 ( +3 initiative + 3D6 )
he shape changes into a critter with a normal reaction of 4

that gives him
initiative of 7+9 +4D6 (average 30 ,minimum 20 , maximum 40)

he will get on average 3 actions
now as a bear he has an unarmed attack with damage code of 9D2 ( may be wrong)

3 attacks at 9D2 kills anything


Please tell me this is not possible ( a mage in my party tries this )
I want to justify my not allowing it in the game

What I say is that all spell lockas are lost in the transformation.


sorry if this letter is unorganised

Wintermute
University of Limerick
Ireland

9032754@****.ul.ie
Message no. 2
From: Chris Siebenmann <cks@********.UTCS.TORONTO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Critter combat
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 92 17:32:23 -0400
I would say that a shapechanged mage must use any skill (or lack
thereof) in unarmed combat, but keeps boosted reactions, including
those from spells (although the mage may now have problems carrying
around those spell locks). To get the 'reaction as skill' for the
shapeshifted creature requires too much yielding of yourself to the
beast nature (and would of course loose the mage his int bonus); I
would like to see only shamens in the form of their totem go that far.
Hermetics are far too controlled to do it except under really bad
circumstances. :)

- cks
Message no. 3
From: Augustus shadowrun@********.net
Subject: Critter Combat
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 11:35:27 -0800
I have this query on critters... I've been trying to use them more and more
in campaigns as a viable threat option against PCs.

---(Quick Flashback to SR1 to Help the Explanation)---
This if for those that weren't back then and lends to my explanation of a
problem, if you are familiar with SR1 rules then skip on ahead...

Back in SR1, weapons had damage codes that were XDY, where:
X = Power Level
D = Damage Level
Y = Staging
So a weapon like an Uzi III was 4M3, an HK227 was 5M3... with the variable
staging, you had to roll a number of successes to stage up the weapon equal
to the staging, and same for staging a weapon down (ie: 3 successes staged a
4M3 weapon up to 4S3... 3 more would take it to 4D3)

Back in SR1, armour and 'dodge pool' counted as automatic successes against
staging the attack down. So if you had 5/3 armour on and allocated 2 dice
from the dodge pool to resist, that was 7 automatic successes to resist
damage (so a 4D3 attack would automatically stage down to 4M3, with 2 more
successes staging down the attack to an L wound)
---(End of SR1 Combat Rules Explanation)---

So the point was... back in the days of SR1, if you shot a critter like say
a hellhound with an Uzi III, it would roll its body to resist and was only
looking for 4s to stage the damage down.

Now we get to SR2/3... with the base 2 staging and increased power levels
(especially with burst fire)

Now, lets say in SR2/3 we shoot at the hellhound with an Uzi III... if its a
burst, the base damage code is 9S... the attacker with a smartlink is only
looking for 4s to stage the attack up (assuming close range and with just
the base recoil modifier of "Folding Stock:1")

To resist the damage, the Hellhound would roll its body looking for 9s...

To cut to the chase... with PCs firing usually 2 bursts and taking in to
account recoil, combat pool, smartlinks, etc... its most likely that they
will do a "one shot, one kill" to almost every critter in the book.

Why? Because most critters have no armour (and alot of the critters with a
10-20 body only have 1-3 points of armour)... and the power levels are so
high.

Now, unlike 'Sentient Humanoid' opponents, you can't really have critters
try to help themselves by saying "The attacking hellhound dodges behind the
Mr.Coffee machine, taking a +6 cover modifier"... they just don't attack
like that (maybe you can do it once in awhile, but generally your PCs might
get pretty ticked off if all your INT 1 or 2 critters are hiding)

I have a few solutions I use (detailed below) but was wondering if anybody
has any more thoughts/opinions on the subject that might help make critters
abit more 'fearsome' (lately a pack of 10 hellhounds attacking my PCs just
go down like bricks, so its kinda annoying)

Some solutions I have:
Firstly, I usually give critters some kind of 'natural cover' until they
close within melee attacking range... ie: if they are hell hounds let loose
in a corporate facility for the night, they are going to be below most
desk/cubicle walls and out of line of sight of the PCs until they are coming
around the corner and engaging them. This doesn't work too well for wide
open spaces (like empty parking garages, wide open warehouses, etc)

Secondly I have come up with 'Critter Armour'... ie: "The Leather Lined
Doggy Jacket" is something most of my hellhounds and guard dogs would wear
now... a basic 3/3 armour body piece (I justify the 3/3 armour rating
because its padded leather, lined with kevlar and a few rigid plates to
cover some vital areas, but not enough to inhibit movement).

I also do things like use some natural advantages (night vision, dual
natured vision, dual natured beings attacking spells in the astral, using
innate abilities at a distance where possible, etc) but would like any other
feedback/thoughts/opinions if there are any

Thanks,

Clint
Message no. 4
From: robert frazine shade@*****.edu
Subject: Critter Combat
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 15:07:51 -0500 (EST)
On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Augustus wrote:


> Now, lets say in SR2/3 we shoot at the hellhound with an Uzi III... if its a
> burst, the base damage code is 9S... the attacker with a smartlink is only
> looking for 4s to stage the attack up (assuming close range and with just
> the base recoil modifier of "Folding Stock:1")


Only if the shooter is standing still, and the lights are on in the
facility, and the hellhound is also standing still.

Now given that situation rarely happens, lets go over the cubicle
situation you discussed before.

Hell hound rounds corner of cubicle and attacks runner.

Roll surprise. I'm not sure what the reaction is for a hellhound, but
lets assume 6 (their pretty quick beasties)

Given your scenario of the runner not knowing the dog was there, runner
rolls for 4s, dog rolls for 2s.

scenario 1. the runner wins, he is looking for a base 4, doggie was
running +3, he was moving +1(I'll be nice and assume runner was being
careful), lets say +3 vision mods(oops halve that cuz it's melee combat)
+2, +2 for firing into melee, +3 for burst, -1 for stock(being really nice
here, as I'd say you can't use the stock in this situation, betting it's
more of a fire from the hip situation), -2 smartgunlink.
Total: runner is looking for an 11.

scenario 2: doggie wins surprise, lets see, base 4, target moving +1,
running +4(or with Marc's melee rules +2), nat. lowlight in melee +1
total: 10 or 8

All Combat situations are chancy.
Critters are worse then humans, especially if they have accident (oops did
your gun jam??) or reach.

My numbers might be off above, since I haven't played since August.
Damn Gridsec Marc not getting off his duff. <grin>
Message no. 5
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Critter Combat
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 15:39:40 -0500 (EST)
On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Augustus wrote:

> I have this query on critters... I've been trying to use them more and more
> in campaigns as a viable threat option against PCs.

Good idea.

> To cut to the chase... with PCs firing usually 2 bursts and taking in to
> account recoil, combat pool, smartlinks, etc... its most likely that they
> will do a "one shot, one kill" to almost every critter in the book.
> Why? Because most critters have no armour (and alot of the critters with a
> 10-20 body only have 1-3 points of armour)... and the power levels are so
> high.

Well, yeah. If you shoot a dog (which is esentially what a
Hellhound is) with two bursts from a submachine gun, it's probably going
to die. Just like if you shoot an unarmored human with two bursts from
the same SMG. Automatic weapons are nasty, make no mistake.
This is a problem why?

> Now, unlike 'Sentient Humanoid' opponents, you can't really have critters
> try to help themselves by saying "The attacking hellhound dodges behind the
> Mr.Coffee machine, taking a +6 cover modifier"... they just don't attack
> like that (maybe you can do it once in awhile, but generally your PCs might
> get pretty ticked off if all your INT 1 or 2 critters are hiding)

It is precisely this reason that I apply the "They're coming right
at us!" modifier - esentially the "target running" modifier to most shots
against critters. Why? Because Fluffy the Barghest isn't going to jander
on up to you and take a leisurely nip. He's going to come barreling at
you full force, full speed, slobbering and growling. He's going to hit
you hard, bite you grievously, and knock you down. Then his littermates
are going to help him tear you apart while you're down.
Even if an animal is coming straight towards you, they're tough to
target correctly. Most animals have a loping, bounding stride that has a
fair amount of vertical movement. It's tough to hit a bouncing target at
rapidly closing range.
Rob's post already goes through the pertinent modifiers, but it's
worth reinforcing. Yes, if you're shooting at a stationary Hellhound at
close range in a brightly lit room with a smartlinked weapon, you're going
to kill it. Do you feel like Rambo yet? The problem is that most animals
won't stand still when they want to kill you, and they oftentimes won't
come alone. Usually, by the time you know there's an animal there, it's
too late. Don't disregard the speed at which animals can move. Most
"doglike" critters have a running modifier of 4 or 5 and a high Quickness
to boot.
Also, don't underestimate the value of surprise or ambush. Sure,
many animals may not think that way or be intelligent enough to lay a trap
for unwary foes, but remember that that's how many animals hunt,
especially big cats. The first sign you have that there's a Puma in the
area it usually it's teeth in your neck. Also be aware that many other
animals that would normally be noisy (like dogs) can be trained not to be.
A well-trained *guard* dog will bark, because it's job is to scare people
away by raising a ruckus. A well-trained *attack* dog will not bark,
because it's job is to kill people, and people are more easily killed when
they don't know you're coming for them. And if the animal can't be
trained? There are other solutions, like surgically cutting the vocal
cords. Imagine a Cockatrice that came upon you with no warning.
Further, there are some critters that are just plain sneaky. Take
the Bandersnatch, for instance. Nearly invisible, stealthy, and foul
tempered. This kind of thing will play hell with a party if they're not
expecting it.
Basically, try to have it such that the Critters appear only when
they're close to the players. You'll be amazed at how much a surprise
test and a +2 "firing into melee" modifier will do for your Critters' life
expectancies.

Marc Renouf (ShadowRN GridSec - "Bad Cop" Division)

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Message no. 6
From: Walter Scheper ratlaw@*******.com
Subject: Critter Combat
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 20:29:00 -0500
On 16 Nov 2000, at 15:07, robert frazine wrote:

> On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Augustus wrote:
>
>
[snip]
> scenario 1. the runner wins, he is looking for a base 4, doggie was
> running +3, he was moving +1(I'll be nice and assume runner was being
> careful), lets say +3 vision mods(oops halve that cuz it's melee combat)
> +2, +2 for firing into melee, +3 for burst, -1 for stock(being really nice
> here, as I'd say you can't use the stock in this situation, betting it's
> more of a fire from the hip situation), -2 smartgunlink.
> Total: runner is looking for an 11.
>
Okay, quick question: you give +2 for firing into melee; I always figured this
modifier only applied for people outside of the melee trying to shoot a person
in melee. So why apply it when your shooting the person/critter engaged in
melee combat with you?

That is all
-Walter
Message no. 7
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Critter Combat
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 11:11:31 +0100
According to Augustus, on Thu, 16 Nov 2000 the word on the street was...

[snip SR1 Combat Rules Explanation]
> So the point was... back in the days of SR1, if you shot a critter like say
> a hellhound with an Uzi III, it would roll its body to resist and was only
> looking for 4s to stage the damage down.

IOW, critters didn't die every time a PC shot them.

> I have a few solutions I use (detailed below) but was wondering if anybody
> has any more thoughts/opinions on the subject that might help make critters
> abit more 'fearsome' (lately a pack of 10 hellhounds attacking my PCs just
> go down like bricks, so its kinda annoying)

Same experience here. I don't use critters a lot in SR adventures for the
simple reason that most don't last beyond the first action of the first
combat turn when a fight breaks out.

> Some solutions I have:
> Firstly, I usually give critters some kind of 'natural cover' until they
> close within melee attacking range... ie: if they are hell hounds let loose
> in a corporate facility for the night, they are going to be below most
> desk/cubicle walls and out of line of sight of the PCs until they are coming
> around the corner and engaging them. This doesn't work too well for wide
> open spaces (like empty parking garages, wide open warehouses, etc)

IMO it's a bit unrealistic to have free-roaming guard dogs in an office
building. Unless the cleaning crew comes in after the dogs are locked up,
but before the wageslaves come in to work, anyway :)

> Secondly I have come up with 'Critter Armour'... ie: "The Leather Lined
> Doggy Jacket" is something most of my hellhounds and guard dogs would wear
> now... a basic 3/3 armour body piece (I justify the 3/3 armour rating
> because its padded leather, lined with kevlar and a few rigid plates to
> cover some vital areas, but not enough to inhibit movement).

I've also got something similar in one of the Plastic Warriors books, but I
don't remember which one off-hand :) IMHO, this kind of armor could be made
with any armor ratings available for metahuman armor, though getting an
animal into the equivalent of security or military armor might be difficult.

> I also do things like use some natural advantages (night vision, dual
> natured vision, dual natured beings attacking spells in the astral, using
> innate abilities at a distance where possible, etc) but would like any other
> feedback/thoughts/opinions if there are any

At corporate facilities, critters could easily be equipped with life sign
monitors (like the ones Lone Star cops wear). If the critter goes down, an
alert goes off at security, who'll send some guards over to investigate.

The best way I've found that you can challenge PCs with critters, though,
is to disarm them first. Make it plausible, though, don't just forbid them
to take their weapons. You could, for example, send them on a run to a
foreign country so they can't take (m)any weapons with them, and then try
to get them stranded in the middle of nowhere after they've accomplished
the basic run and wasted most of their ammunition.

Once the guns have been removed from the PCs' hands, critters suddenly
become a lot more dangerous, because most PCs can't do as much damage as
quickly when unarmed as they can with a gun. Not much point in doing this
when you've got a physad with Distance Strike and Killing Hands, though --
you might as well let the PC have a gun...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Bartitis -- Kei-erg!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 8
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Critter Combat
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 11:29:55 +0100
According to Walter Scheper, on Fri, 17 Nov 2000 the word on the street was...

> Okay, quick question: you give +2 for firing into melee; I always figured this
> modifier only applied for people outside of the melee trying to shoot a person
> in melee. So why apply it when your shooting the person/critter engaged in
> melee combat with you?

Because the modifier reflects the difficulty of aiming a gun while someone
is trying to hit you (or to knock the gun away). SR3 p. 112 says: "If the
attacker is attempting to conduct a ranged attack while engaged in melee
combat with another opponent ..." Technically, this means the modifier
wouldn't apply when you're trying to shoot someone who's attacking you in
melee combat, but common sense says it would.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Bartitis -- Kei-erg!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

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