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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Wally the Intrepid)
Subject: Critter powers...
Date: Sat Dec 1 14:35:01 2001
My group and I are unclear as to how Critter powers operate,
specifically Spirit powers. Do powers like Accident and Confusion (et al)
work automatically, and the target is afflicted with it? Or, does the target
have some chance to avoid or offset the effect, like an Open or Opposed Test
of some kind? Thanks for your time,

--Wally
http://home.earthlink.net/~stormknight/
Contact me on ICQ at UIN# 163454
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (M.S. "Herc" Bobroff)
Subject: Critter powers...
Date: Sat Dec 1 23:45:02 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wally the Intrepid" <stormknight@*********.net>


> My group and I are unclear as to how Critter powers operate,
> specifically Spirit powers. Do powers like Accident and Confusion
(et al)
> work automatically, and the target is afflicted with it? Or, does
the target
> have some chance to avoid or offset the effect, like an Open or
Opposed Test
> of some kind? Thanks for your time,

Wally,

All powers that can potentially harm a character has a success test
for the critter and a resistance test for the character.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Michael "Herc" Bobroff
Hoosier Hacker House
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Wally the Intrepid)
Subject: Critter powers...
Date: Sun Dec 2 01:55:01 2001
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Wally the Intrepid" <stormknight@*********.net>
>
>
> > My group and I are unclear as to how Critter powers operate,
> > specifically Spirit powers. Do powers like Accident and Confusion
> (et al)
> > work automatically, and the target is afflicted with it? Or, does
> the target
> > have some chance to avoid or offset the effect, like an Open or
> Opposed Test
> > of some kind? Thanks for your time,
>
> Wally,
>
> All powers that can potentially harm a character has a success test
> for the critter and a resistance test for the character.
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> Michael "Herc" Bobroff

Uh, OK, but how does that work? For example, a Force 4 Hearth Spirit
using Accident on a Troll guard. Do you roll the Force dice vs. the guard's
Willpower, and see who has more successes? Or does it work some other way?
Thanks for the feedback,

--Wally
http://home.earthlink.net/~stormknight/
Contact me on ICQ at UIN# 163454
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Wally the Intrepid)
Subject: Critter powers...
Date: Sun Dec 2 02:55:01 2001
> > > My group and I are unclear as to how Critter powers operate,
> > > specifically Spirit powers. Do powers like Accident and Confusion
> > (et al)
> > > work automatically, and the target is afflicted with it? Or, does
> > the target
> > > have some chance to avoid or offset the effect, like an Open or
> > Opposed Test
> > > of some kind? Thanks for your time,
> >
> > Wally,
> >
> > All powers that can potentially harm a character has a success test
> > for the critter and a resistance test for the character.
> >
> > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> > Michael "Herc" Bobroff
>
> Uh, OK, but how does that work? For example, a Force 4 Hearth Spirit
> using Accident on a Troll guard. Do you roll the Force dice vs. the
guard's
> Willpower, and see who has more successes? Or does it work some other way?
> Thanks for the feedback,
>
> --Wally

I had meant to say Confusion, but also for Accident, what would that be
applied against?

--Wally
http://home.earthlink.net/~stormknight/
Contact me on ICQ at UIN# 163454
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Sven)
Subject: Critter powers...
Date: Sun Dec 2 05:45:00 2001
Wally the Intrepid wrote:

> Uh, OK, but how does that work? For example, a Force 4
> Hearth Spirit
> using Accident on a Troll guard. Do you roll the Force dice
> vs. the guard's
> Willpower, and see who has more successes? Or does it work
> some other way?
> Thanks for the feedback,

Most of the powers use the spirit's essence rating as target number for any
resistance tests.

fi. Accident power may be resisted by the target using
Quickness/Intelligence, with a target number equal to the Essence of the
being using the power.
Same goes with confusion, in order to make any decission you have to make a
Willpower test against the critter's Essence.

Just my thoughts,

-sven ;)
--
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Critter powers...
Date: Sun Dec 2 05:45:04 2001
According to Wally the Intrepid, on Sat, 01 Dec 2001 the word on the street was...

> My group and I are unclear as to how Critter powers operate,
> specifically Spirit powers. Do powers like Accident and Confusion (et al)
> work automatically, and the target is afflicted with it? Or, does the
> target have some chance to avoid or offset the effect, like an Open or
> Opposed Test of some kind? Thanks for your time,

These sorts of things are explained in each power's description. For example, in
that of Accident on page 262 of SR3, it says "make a test using Quickness or
Intelligence (...), with a target number equal to the Essence of the being using
the power." All the powers (or just about, anyway :) have lines similar to that
one, telling you what tests to roll, if any, when they affect a character.

All powers affect their target from the moment the critter starts using them,
while durations, ranges, etc. are also mentioned in the power description, using
a stat bar similar to that of spells.

What it all comes down to is that you need to RTFM :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"I know you're expecting me to take that as good news," Randy says.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Critter powers...
Date: Sun Dec 2 11:00:02 2001
Wally the Intrepid writes:

> My group and I are unclear as to how Critter powers operate,
> specifically Spirit powers. Do powers like Accident and Confusion (et al)
> work automatically, and the target is afflicted with it? Or, does the target
> have some chance to avoid or offset the effect, like an Open or Opposed Test
> of some kind? Thanks for your time,

As people have pointed out, Accident has specific rules regarding
resistance. So does Confusion, but if you read them, it might as well not.
The affected persons get a Willpower Test to actually get their brains
together enough to make a decision. But, regardless of whether they succeed
or not, they _still_ suffer a +Force TN modifier to all tests. This is a
very powerful Power. ;-)

As a query, do people allow Noxious Breath to be staged up? By my reading of
the description, the Power just does (Essence)S Stun, but the critter cannot
stage this up. What do you think?

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GE d- s++:-- a25 C++ US++>+++ P+ L+>++ E- W+ N++ o@ K- w+(--) O-@ M--
V- PS+ PE- Y+ PGP-@>++ t+ 5 X+>+++ R++ !tv(--) b+ DI+++@ D G+
e++>++++$ h- r++>+++ y->+++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Critter powers...
Date: Sun Dec 2 13:20:01 2001
According to Damion Milliken, on Sun, 02 Dec 2001 the word on the street was...

> As people have pointed out, Accident has specific rules regarding
> resistance. So does Confusion, but if you read them, it might as well
> not. The affected persons get a Willpower Test to actually get their
> brains together enough to make a decision. But, regardless of whether
> they succeed or not, they _still_ suffer a +Force TN modifier to all
> tests. This is a very powerful Power. ;-)

That makes up for the stupidly weak Accident power, I guess. There's no way
your typical spirit is going to cause an accident with that, at least not
against shadowrunner types. You need a Force 5 or so spirit to have a decent
chance of causing an accident to an average person...

> As a query, do people allow Noxious Breath to be staged up? By my reading
> of the description, the Power just does (Essence)S Stun, but the critter
> cannot stage this up. What do you think?

I agree with your reading; it doesn't say that the spirit needs to make a test
or anything, so it simply inflicts the base damage with no dice behind it to
stage it up.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"I know you're expecting me to take that as good news," Randy says.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Dave Post)
Subject: Critter powers...
Date: Sun Dec 2 14:10:02 2001
At 03:02 AM 12/3/2001 +1100, Damion wrote:

>As people have pointed out, Accident has specific rules regarding
>resistance. So does Confusion, but if you read them, it might as well not.
>The affected persons get a Willpower Test to actually get their brains
>together enough to make a decision. But, regardless of whether they succeed
>or not, they _still_ suffer a +Force TN modifier to all tests. This is a
>very powerful Power. ;-)

One thing about that, however, that we (and I bet lots of other groups)
have been doing wrong for a good long time:

The spirit/elemental/loa powers that are a form of attack, in that they
affect an unwilling target, such as confusion, accident, etc... can only
affect one person at a time. I always thought that spirits could affect
their force in number of targets with their powers; this is how
concealment and guard work. However, for the attack powers, they can only
affect one target at a time. I finally realized this when I read the
description of great form spirits/elementals, the ones summoned with the
initiate power of invoking, in which it specifically states that their
attack powers can be used against multiple targets because they are great
form spirits.

While this still makes confusion a powerful ability, it did cut it down a
good bit for our group.

Dave
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Wally the Intrepid)
Subject: Critter powers...
Date: Sun Dec 2 14:25:01 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gurth" <Gurth@******.nl>

According to Wally the Intrepid, on Sat, 01 Dec 2001 the word on the street
was...

>> My group and I are unclear as to how Critter powers operate,
>> specifically Spirit powers. Do powers like Accident and Confusion (et al)
>> work automatically, and the target is afflicted with it? Or, does the
>> target have some chance to avoid or offset the effect, like an Open or
>> Opposed Test of some kind? Thanks for your time,

>These sorts of things are explained in each power's description. For
example, in
>that of Accident on page 262 of SR3, it says "make a test using Quickness
or
>Intelligence (...), with a target number equal to the Essence of the being
using
>the power." All the powers (or just about, anyway :) have lines similar to
that
>one, telling you what tests to roll, if any, when they affect a character.

>All powers affect their target from the moment the critter starts using
them,
>while durations, ranges, etc. are also mentioned in the power description,
using
>a stat bar similar to that of spells.

Yeah, this is what we were unclear about. So the targets don't get to
resist the power before it starts affecting them? Yeah, that is nasty!
That's why we were unsure of it

>What it all comes down to is that you need to RTFM :)

Yeah, we did, all of us, but it still didn't answer that particular
question. But you guys did, so thanks!

BTW: Gurth, why the heck does your text not quote like everyone else's??
I had to manually add quote marks to your text (and extra to mine).

--Wally
http://home.earthlink.net/~stormknight/
Contact me on ICQ at UIN# 163454
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Critter powers...
Date: Mon Dec 3 05:35:02 2001
Gurth writes:

> > As a query, do people allow Noxious Breath to be staged up? By my reading
> > of the description, the Power just does (Essence)S Stun, but the critter
> > cannot stage this up. What do you think?
>
> I agree with your reading; it doesn't say that the spirit needs to make a
> test or anything, so it simply inflicts the base damage with no dice behind
> it to stage it up.

Which makes it a rather nice Power in many respects. It doesn't matter what
modifiers the poor critter has (Serious Physical, Serious Stun, Force 10
Confusion Spell, Force 10 Confusion Power from a spirit, Flash Paks, Heavy
Thermal Smoke, Neuro Stun 7, etc, etc), it can always automatically dish out
(Essence)S Stun to anyone it so chooses to.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GE d- s++:-- a25 C++ US++>+++ P+ L+>++ E- W+ N++ o@ K- w+(--) O-@ M--
V- PS+ PE- Y+ PGP-@>++ t+ 5 X+>+++ R++ !tv(--) b+ DI+++@ D G+
e++>++++$ h- r++>+++ y->+++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Critter powers...
Date: Mon Dec 3 05:45:01 2001
According to Wally the Intrepid, on Sun, 02 Dec 2001 the word on the street was...

> >a stat bar similar to that of spells.
>
> Yeah, this is what we were unclear about.

Ah, OK. No offense, but IMHO your post read as if you'd never really looked at
the power descriptions :)

> So the targets don't get to
> resist the power before it starts affecting them? Yeah, that is nasty!
> That's why we were unsure of it

Only powers that specifically state there's a resistance test, get a resistance
test. This makes some of them very powerful, yes.

> BTW: Gurth, why the heck does your text not quote like everyone
> else's?? I had to manually add quote marks to your text (and extra to
> mine).

I have no idea; some people have that problem, and the only connection I've been
able to see is that all of them used some version of Outlook as their mailer
*checks* and indeed, so do you. I don't think it's really got much to do with my
mailer, as this problem also existed back when I used a different mailer (under a
different OS, even).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"I know you're expecting me to take that as good news," Randy says.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Kesh)
Subject: Critter powers...
Date: Mon Dec 3 12:00:01 2001
On Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:30:19 +0100, Gurth wrote:

>> BTW: Gurth, why the heck does your text not quote like everyone
>> else's?? I had to manually add quote marks to your text (and extra to
>> mine).
>
>I have no idea; some people have that problem, and the only connection
>I've been
>able to see is that all of them used some version of Outlook as their mailer
>*checks* and indeed, so do you. I don't think it's really got much to do
>with my
>mailer, as this problem also existed back when I used a different mailer
>(under a
>different OS, even).

Might be something to do with your text encoding. I notice you have a .nl
address... are you using something other than Western ISO-8859-1?

It also may be that your mailer seems to be putting in hard returns
instead of soft-wrapping, if the way it looks above is any indication.
Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Critter powers...
Date: Mon Dec 3 13:25:01 2001
According to Damion Milliken, on Mon, 03 Dec 2001 the word on the street was...

> Which makes it a rather nice Power in many respects. It doesn't matter
> what modifiers the poor critter has (Serious Physical, Serious Stun,
> Force 10 Confusion Spell, Force 10 Confusion Power from a spirit, Flash
> Paks, Heavy Thermal Smoke, Neuro Stun 7, etc, etc), it can always
> automatically dish out (Essence)S Stun to anyone it so chooses to.

Not quite; Noxious Breath has Touch range, so to hit an unwilling opponent,
the spirit will need to make a test after all. Of course, a smart spirit could
easily blindside most opponents, preventing them from reacting to it until
it's too late...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"I know you're expecting me to take that as good news," Randy says.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Critter powers...
Date: Mon Dec 3 13:25:03 2001
According to Kesh, on Mon, 03 Dec 2001 the word on the street was...

> Might be something to do with your text encoding. I notice you have a .nl
> address... are you using something other than Western ISO-8859-1?

Not AFAIK, but I can't find any setting to change this in my mailer's
options (kmail 1.1.61). Dutch doesn't use any characters not present in
ISO-8859-1 (Latin-1) character sets, so I have no need to set it to
anything else, either in my mailer or system-wide.

> It also may be that your mailer seems to be putting in hard returns
> instead of soft-wrapping, if the way it looks above is any indication.

You are saying that as if you expect mailers to _not_ word-wrap outgoing
messages...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"I know you're expecting me to take that as good news," Randy says.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (BD)
Subject: Critter powers...
Date: Mon Dec 3 15:30:01 2001
>> BTW: Gurth, why the heck does your text not quote like everyone
else's?? I had to manually add quote marks to your text (and extra to
mine).
>>

> Might be something to do with your text encoding. I notice you have a .nl
address... are you using something other than Western ISO-8859-1? It also
may be that your mailer seems to be putting in hard returns instead of
soft-wrapping, if the way it looks above is any indication.
>

Just do what the rest of us do, bud. Never reply to Gurth at all... ;)

====-Boondocker

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping.
http://shopping.yahoo.com
Message no. 17
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Kesh)
Subject: Critter powers...
Date: Mon Dec 3 17:55:01 2001
On Mon, 3 Dec 2001 19:08:36 +0100, Gurth wrote:

>> It also may be that your mailer seems to be putting in hard returns
>> instead of soft-wrapping, if the way it looks above is any indication.
>
>You are saying that as if you expect mailers to _not_ word-wrap outgoing
>messages...

It's been so long since I messed with these kind of settings... :)

I remember that a long time ago, most did wrap at 72 chars per line, but
IIRC most modern ones only force that wrapping for when the text actually
hits your mail reader, not in sending. When it forcibly wraps in sending,
it can cause weird line breaks since the quoting characters add to each line.

But, it's completely off-topic, and I don't remember for sure, so I'll be
quiet now. :)
Message no. 18
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Critter powers...
Date: Tue Dec 4 01:35:00 2001
Gurth writes:

> Not quite; Noxious Breath has Touch range, so to hit an unwilling
> opponent, the spirit will need to make a test after all. Of course, a smart
> spirit could easily blindside most opponents, preventing them from reacting
> to it until it's too late...

Now *that* I didn't realise! For some reason (earlier editions, perhaps?), I
have always given Noxious Breath a range of twice Essence in meters (like
many other Powers are, or at least _used_ to be ;-)). Now I really do think
that Noxious Breath, like Accident, sucks. Since I toned down the waaay
overpowered Confusion Power, I might have to tone up Accident and Noxious
Breath a little. Otherwise spirits will totally blow dogs in my games...

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GE d- s++:-- a25 C++ US++>+++ P+ L+>++ E- W+ N++ o@ K- w+(--) O-@ M--
V- PS+ PE- Y+ PGP-@>++ t+ 5 X+>+++ R++ !tv(--) b+ DI+++@ D G+
e++>++++$ h- r++>+++ y->+++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 19
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Critter powers...
Date: Tue Dec 4 05:40:01 2001
According to Kesh, on Mon, 03 Dec 2001 the word on the street was...

> It's been so long since I messed with these kind of settings... :)
>
> I remember that a long time ago, most did wrap at 72 chars per line,

72 or 76, depending on the mailer in question, AFAIK.

> but
> IIRC most modern ones only force that wrapping for when the text actually
> hits your mail reader, not in sending. When it forcibly wraps in sending,
> it can cause weird line breaks since the quoting characters add to each
> line.

No weirder than you get when it hits the end of the window, and at any rate
it's mainly caused by excessive quoting (which is what the 72/76 characters
is for: so that on an 80-column screen, you have space for a few quote
marks before each line). At any rate, your messages have hard line endings
in them, so it seems CTM PowerMail 3.0.9 carbon word-wraps outgoing
messages, too :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"I know you're expecting me to take that as good news," Randy says.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 20
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Critter powers...
Date: Tue Dec 4 05:40:04 2001
According to Damion Milliken, on Tue, 04 Dec 2001 the word on the street was...

> > Not quite; Noxious Breath has Touch range
>
> Now *that* I didn't realise! For some reason (earlier editions,
> perhaps?), I have always given Noxious Breath a range of twice Essence in
> meters (like many other Powers are, or at least _used_ to be ;-)).

SR3 doesn't mention any range, so I guess it's only the critter's Reach (if
any) that comes into play here. The most detailed power descriptions are in
the PAoE, but (unfortunately?) they got simplified for SR3. Maybe that's the
rule you remember?

> Now I really do think that Noxious Breath, like Accident, sucks. Since I
> toned down the waaay overpowered Confusion Power, I might have to tone up
> Accident and Noxious Breath a little. Otherwise spirits will totally blow
> dogs in my games...

NB isn't any different from melee attacks now, except maybe that it doesn't
stage the damage up on a successful hit. That, arguably, makes it a bit weaker
than being able to hit someone for (Strength)S Stun with an unarmed attack,
but OTOH most critters with this power will probably have a lower damage code
than that for unarmed combat.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"I know you're expecting me to take that as good news," Randy says.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 21
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Wally the Intrepid)
Subject: Critter powers...
Date: Fri Dec 7 14:15:01 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gurth" <Gurth@******.nl>
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 11:16 AM

According to Damion Milliken, on Sun, 02 Dec 2001 the word on the street
was...

> As people have pointed out, Accident has specific rules regarding
> resistance. So does Confusion, but if you read them, it might as well
> not. The affected persons get a Willpower Test to actually get their
> brains together enough to make a decision. But, regardless of whether
> they succeed or not, they _still_ suffer a +Force TN modifier to all
> tests. This is a very powerful Power. ;-)

That makes up for the stupidly weak Accident power, I guess. There's no way
your typical spirit is going to cause an accident with that, at least not
against shadowrunner types. You need a Force 5 or so spirit to have a decent
chance of causing an accident to an average person...

<<<<<<<<<<< The above was Gurth's, & Damion's, text
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

OK, so now my question is what kind of Test does the target make? Does
s/he need only one (1) success against the spirit's Essence/Force in an Open
Test? Or is it an Opposed Test with whomsoever gets the most successes being
the victor, like most spell-casting? I assume this latter way would have the
spirit rolling its Essence/Force and the target rolling the appropriate
attribute. Yes?
BTW: Don't all spirits have the same Essense as Force? Why do the
authors muddy things like that?
Thanks again for all the great feedback and discussion,

--Wally
http://home.earthlink.net/~stormknight/
Contact me on ICQ at UIN# 163454
Message no. 22
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Critter powers...
Date: Sat Dec 8 07:35:01 2001
According to Wally the Intrepid, on Fri, 07 Dec 2001 the word on the street was...

> OK, so now my question is what kind of Test does the target make?
> Does s/he need only one (1) success against the spirit's Essence/Force in
> an Open Test? Or is it an Opposed Test with whomsoever gets the most
> successes being the victor, like most spell-casting? I assume this latter
> way would have the spirit rolling its Essence/Force and the target
> rolling the appropriate attribute. Yes?

I get the distinct impression you'renot actually reading the power descriptions,
because this is explained in them :) For Confusion, the victim gets the TN
modifier at all times, and whenever he or she wants (or needs) to make a
decision, must roll a Willpower (Essence) test. This suggests that this test is
not subject to the Confusion modifier, else the test would usually be _very_
difficult to succeed at.

> BTW: Don't all spirits have the same Essense as Force? Why do the
> authors muddy things like that?

They do, but the powers aren't necessarily for spirits only, so it's better to
say Essence is used for the test -- for example, there's this giant turtle (I
can't remember the name right now) that has Engulf power, but because it's a
spirit it obviously doesn't have a Force.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"I know you're expecting me to take that as good news," Randy says.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 23
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Critter powers...
Date: Sat Dec 8 08:55:04 2001
From: "Wally the Intrepid" <stormknight@*********.net>
<Snip power question>
> Yeah, this is what we were unclear about. So the targets don't get to
> resist the power before it starts affecting them? Yeah, that is nasty!

You can't say it so categorically.

If a dragon uses it's Innate Ability (Flamethrower) you do get to resist it
befor it affects you, the same with powers like Magical Skill

Some powers affect you before you get to resist them, others don't, it in the
description.

Lars
--
Lars Wagner Hansen, Jagtvej 11, 4180 Sorø
l-hansen@*****.tele.dk http://home4.inet.tele.dk/l-hansen
--
SRGC v0.22 SR1 SR2++ SR3+++ h+ b+++ B--- UB++ IE+ RN LST W++ dk sa++ ma+
sh++ ad++++ ri mc rk-- m- (e-- o t-- d-) gm+ M- P-
--
Main Rule of Usenet: Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to
their level, then beat you with experience.
Message no. 24
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Wally the Intrepid)
Subject: Critter powers...
Date: Sat Dec 8 10:00:01 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gurth" <Gurth@******.nl>
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2001 4:27 AM

According to Wally the Intrepid, on Fri, 07 Dec 2001 the word on the street
was...

> OK, so now my question is what kind of Test does the target make?
> Does s/he need only one (1) success against the spirit's Essence/Force in
> an Open Test? Or is it an Opposed Test with whomsoever gets the most
> successes being the victor, like most spell-casting? I assume this latter
> way would have the spirit rolling its Essence/Force and the target
> rolling the appropriate attribute. Yes?

I get the distinct impression you'renot actually reading the power
descriptions,
because this is explained in them :) For Confusion, the victim gets the TN
modifier at all times, and whenever he or she wants (or needs) to make a
decision, must roll a Willpower (Essence) test. This suggests that this test
is
not subject to the Confusion modifier, else the test would usually be _very_
difficult to succeed at.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ That was Gurth's text. This is mine. vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

No really, I've read as much info as I can, and in as many books as I
can find with relevant information. Its just that powers like that Confusion
are so nasty, it seems like there should be some way for the target to
resist the Force - 4 Spirit suddenly bequeathing the equivalent of a
Moderate Stun & Physical Wound.

<<<<<< Back to Gurth again >>>>>>>>

> BTW: Don't all spirits have the same Essense as Force? Why do the
> authors muddy things like that?

They do, but the powers aren't necessarily for spirits only, so it's better
to
say Essence is used for the test -- for example, there's this giant turtle
(I
can't remember the name right now) that has Engulf power, but because it's a
spirit it obviously doesn't have a Force.

>>>>>>>>>> Me now
<<<<<<<<<<<

I assume you meant that the turtle is NOT a spirit, yes? If so, I
understand now. So creatures like that turtle use their Essence whereas an
Elemental would use its Force, to Engulf.

<><><><><><><><>< Lars also said
><><><><><><><><><><>

If a dragon uses it's Innate Ability (Flamethrower) you do get to resist it
befor it affects you, the same with powers like Magical Skill

Some powers affect you before you get to resist them, others don't, it in
the
description

>>>>>>>>>>>> Me again (jeez, this is tiring)
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

OK, OK, I understand that from powers that are clear-cut in their
descriptions.. Its just that many descriptions aren't, and given the
overwhelming power of an unopposed Power's use, we all (our group) wanted to
be sure that's what the game designers intended.
Now this question just occurred to me: If the magician commanding a
spirit wants to have his spirit Confuse an opponent, does that take effect
when the magician goes, and gives the command, or when the spirit itself
goes? What if the spirit has a higher Initiative than its conjurer? Can the
magician pre-order a spirit he conjures to Confuse any opponent the group
encounters?

Alright, I'm going back to bed now... oy.

--Wally
http://home.earthlink.net/~stormknight/
Contact me on ICQ at UIN# 163454
Message no. 25
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Critter powers...
Date: Sat Dec 8 13:20:01 2001
According to Wally the Intrepid, on Sat, 08 Dec 2001 the word on the street was...

> No really, I've read as much info as I can, and in as many books as I
> can find with relevant information. Its just that powers like that
> Confusion are so nasty, it seems like there should be some way for the
> target to resist the Force - 4 Spirit suddenly bequeathing the equivalent
> of a Moderate Stun & Physical Wound.

Be glad they removed Alienation, is all I can say :) Yes, it is powerful. On the
other hand, it is also very limited (at least when used by nature spirits)
because as soon as the victim leaves the spirit's domain, the power stops
working. So all you need to do is get one good enough roll (and Willpower vs. TN
4 isn't very hard) to step out of the building, or into the park, or whatever,
and you can think clearly again.

> > They do, but the powers aren't necessarily for spirits only, so it's better to
> > say Essence is used for the test -- for example, there's this giant turtle (I
> > can't remember the name right now) that has Engulf power, but because
> > it's a spirit it obviously doesn't have a Force.
>
> I assume you meant that the turtle is NOT a spirit, yes?

Yes, I did -- that was a small but important omission there :)

> If so, I
> understand now. So creatures like that turtle use their Essence whereas
> an Elemental would use its Force, to Engulf.

Yeeesss... however, since an elemental's Essence equals its Force, this means
that it basically still uses its Essence. It is less confusing to say that _all_
critters use their Essence for these things, rather than that paranormal critters
use their Essence while spirits use their Force -- especially because then you'll
get people asking "But isn't a spirit's Essence equal to its Force, so wouldn't
that be the same thing anyway?"

> Now this question just occurred to me: If the magician commanding a
> spirit wants to have his spirit Confuse an opponent, does that take
> effect when the magician goes, and gives the command, or when the spirit
> itself goes? What if the spirit has a higher Initiative than its
> conjurer? Can the magician pre-order a spirit he conjures to Confuse any
> opponent the group encounters?

Spirits with higher initiative than their conjurer always delay until they are
given an order. This means they will normally act as soon as an order has been
given, unless they are out of actions for the turn (which is unlikely, but
possible).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"I know you're expecting me to take that as good news," Randy says.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 26
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Wally the Intrepid)
Subject: Critter powers...
Date: Sat Dec 8 16:10:01 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gurth" <Gurth@******.nl>
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2001 11:20 AM

According to Wally the Intrepid, on Sat, 08 Dec 2001 the word on the street
was...

> No really, I've read as much info as I can, and in as many books as I
> can find with relevant information. Its just that powers like that
> Confusion are so nasty, it seems like there should be some way for the
> target to resist the Force - 4 Spirit suddenly bequeathing the equivalent
> of a Moderate Stun & Physical Wound.

Be glad they removed Alienation, is all I can say :) Yes, it is powerful. On
the
other hand, it is also very limited (at least when used by nature spirits)
because as soon as the victim leaves the spirit's domain, the power stops
working. So all you need to do is get one good enough roll (and Willpower
vs. TN
4 isn't very hard) to step out of the building, or into the park, or
whatever,
and you can think clearly again.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::: My turn
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Jeez, I checked SR2, and they left out a LOT of critter powers from SR3.
Yeah, Alienation is nasty! Reminds me of that "djinni" episode of the
X-Files, where the guy wishes he was invisible, and he was ... even after
the truck ran him over, leaving an invisible corpse... heh.
Thanks for the info about the domain, we didn't know that ... hmm, wait,
well, I guess we did, with regard to Concealment actually. We've only ever
used Confusion in combat, and none have crossed a domain yet. So it just
hasn't come up, as such.

About Essence vs. Force, thanks, got it.

::::::::::::::::::::::: Back to you, chief! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

> Now this question just occurred to me: If the magician commanding a
> spirit wants to have his spirit Confuse an opponent, does that take
> effect when the magician goes, and gives the command, or when the spirit
> itself goes? What if the spirit has a higher Initiative than its
> conjurer? Can the magician pre-order a spirit he conjures to Confuse any
> opponent the group encounters?

Spirits with higher initiative than their conjurer always delay until they
are
given an order. This means they will normally act as soon as an order has
been
given, unless they are out of actions for the turn (which is unlikely, but
possible).

OK, good, good. But can the magician conjure a spirit, order it to,
"Confuse any opponents", and then when combat comes, the spirit is good to
go and the magician doesn't have to waste a simple action ordering it?
Much abliged, once more, for the excellent brain pickin's,

--Wally
http://home.earthlink.net/~stormknight/
Contact me on ICQ at UIN# 163454
Message no. 27
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Critter powers...
Date: Sun Dec 9 05:50:01 2001
According to Wally the Intrepid, on Sat, 08 Dec 2001 the word on the street was...

> > Be glad they removed Alienation, is all I can say :) Yes, it is powerful.

Note: "It" here refers to Confusion, not Alienation. Again me not being very
clear :(

> Jeez, I checked SR2, and they left out a LOT of critter powers from
> SR3. Yeah, Alienation is nasty! Reminds me of that "djinni" episode of
> the X-Files, where the guy wishes he was invisible, and he was ... even
> after the truck ran him over, leaving an invisible corpse... heh.

I think that's one of the few fairly recent X-Files episodes I saw, and it was
pretty good, yeah. It's also a decent example of Alienation, except that it
didn't leave him feeling all alone in the world (which Alienation would have).

> Thanks for the info about the domain, we didn't know that ... hmm,
> wait, well, I guess we did, with regard to Concealment actually. We've
> only ever used Confusion in combat, and none have crossed a domain yet.
> So it just hasn't come up, as such.

It's a very important consideration with spirit powers, and one which any
magician in the opposition (as well as anyone else with experience with spirits)
should know. Even if the players don't realize it, they should be able to easily
discover this little restriction.

> > Spirits with higher initiative than their conjurer always delay until they are
> > given an order.
>
> OK, good, good. But can the magician conjure a spirit, order it to,
> "Confuse any opponents", and then when combat comes, the spirit is good
> to go and the magician doesn't have to waste a simple action ordering it?

I don't see why that wouldn't be possible. The main drawback I see is, again,
that domain thing: as soon as the magician leaves the spirit's domain, the spirit
is released. Another problem might be with low-Force spirits, which might not be
intelligent enough to understand who to confuse (as there are no opponents at the
moment the order is given). I doubt Force 5 or 6 spirits would have that problem,
though.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"I know you're expecting me to take that as good news," Randy says.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 28
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Critter powers...
Date: Mon Dec 10 06:30:01 2001
Wally the Intrepid writes:

> OK, so now my question is what kind of Test does the target make? Does
> s/he need only one (1) success against the spirit's Essence/Force in an
> Open Test? Or is it an Opposed Test with whomsoever gets the most successes
> being the victor, like most spell-casting? I assume this latter way would
> have the spirit rolling its Essence/Force and the target rolling the
> appropriate attribute. Yes?

I suggest that you might want to read the rules. They specifically say.
Accident, if I recall correctly, requires the affected target to make either
a Quickness or Intelligence Test with a TN of the spirits Force. A single
success prevents the accident. Confusion doesn't get a Resistance Test; the
target just gets +Force to all of their TNs. In order to make any decision
at all, they have to make a Willpower Test with a TN of the spirits Force. A
single successes allows them to make a decision.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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V- PS+ PE- Y+ PGP-@>++ t+ 5 X+>+++ R++ !tv(--) b+ DI+++@ D G+
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------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

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