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Message no. 1
From: Iridios <iridios@*********.COM>
Subject: Crop Circles (was Re: Ancient Civilization)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 21:04:12 -0400
Erik Jameson wrote:

> Grrr. You've heard of crop circles, right? Supposedly they are so complex
> and strange that is is impossible for a mere mortal to create them, they
> must be made by aliens.
>
> Turns out a bunch of odd sods, often British university geeks, DO make crop
> circles, it's a sort of ultra-geek sport. A couple of twonks with some
> rope and a few boards can make incredibly complex crop circles in a few hours.

Yes there are people who use rope and boards to make crop circles, but
when they do they always break the stalks of the crops that they lay
down. But some of the crop circles are found with the stalks bent
down *without* any damage. Something that the investigators and the
twonk circle makers haven't figured out how to accomplish yet.

<snip>

> Erik J.



--"Any science, sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from
magic."
--Arthur C. Clarke

Iridios
iridios@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9489
http://members.theglobe.com/Iridios

-------Begin Geek Code Block------
GS d-(++) s+: a- C++ U?@>++ P L E?
W++ N o-- K- w(---) O? M-- V? PS+@
PE Y+ !PGP>++ t++@ 5+ X++@ R++@ tv
b+ DI++ !D G e+@>++++ h--- r+++ y+++
-------End Geek Code Block--------
Message no. 2
From: William Ashe <wmashe@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Crop Circles (was Re: Ancient Civilization)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:26:15 -0700
>Yes there are people who use rope and boards to make crop circles, but
>when they do they always break the stalks of the crops that they lay
>down. But some of the crop circles are found with the stalks bent
>down *without* any damage. Something that the investigators and the
>twonk circle makers haven't figured out how to accomplish yet.
>
><snip>
>
>> Erik J.


Yeah and I got some primo oceanfront property in Arizona that I'll let you
have cheap ... homestaeding laws and all. Oh yeah and I got the secret to
Cold Fusion too.

Bright-Light
Message no. 3
From: Michael Broadwater <neon@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Crop Circles (was Re: Ancient Civilization)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:42:22 -0500
At 10:26 PM 8/26/98 -0700, William Ashe wrote:
>>Yes there are people who use rope and boards to make crop circles, but
>>when they do they always break the stalks of the crops that they lay
>>down. But some of the crop circles are found with the stalks bent
>>down *without* any damage. Something that the investigators and the
>>twonk circle makers haven't figured out how to accomplish yet.
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>> Erik J.
>
>
>Yeah and I got some primo oceanfront property in Arizona that I'll let you
>have cheap ... homestaeding laws and all. Oh yeah and I got the secret to
>Cold Fusion too.
>
>Bright-Light

Hmm...that's what we call the "pseudo-reasoning". Attempting to disprove
Erik's statement by mocking it. Childish and simplistic, at best. You
have information that can in some way contradict Erik's, correct?
Something you're willing to point to? Some info at all? I'm sure your
feeble comments were leading up to something.


Mike Broadwater
Member of the Blackhand, White Wolf's Official Demo Team
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon/
Message no. 4
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Crop Circles (was Re: Ancient Civilization)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:49:44 -0500
>>Yeah and I got some primo oceanfront property in Arizona that I'll let you
>>have cheap ... homestaeding laws and all. Oh yeah and I got the secret to
>>Cold Fusion too.
>
>Hmm...that's what we call the "pseudo-reasoning". Attempting to disprove
>Erik's statement by mocking it.

Actually, Michael, I believe William was attempting to disprove Iridios's
statement in response to somethng that Erik said.

>Childish and simplistic, at best.

This much is right, though.

On the crop circle argument...having been one of the "odd sods" with rope
and boards who made one of these things once, and having fooled a number of
people with it for some weeks, I feel fairly certain that it can be faked.
(Of course, I thought that the man-made crop circle from a few years ago,
in the shape of Mickey Mouse, that passed certification was kind of a dead
giveaway, but maybe that's just me.)

I believe we've drifted considerably off-topic. Before GridSec comes and
slaps us, I propose that we drop it and adjourn.

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 5
From: Michael Broadwater <neon@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Crop Circles (was Re: Ancient Civilization)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:56:41 -0500
At 10:49 PM 8/26/98 -0500, Patrick Goodman wrote:
>Actually, Michael, I believe William was attempting to disprove Iridios's
>statement in response to somethng that Erik said.

No, his comment was preceded only by Erik's comments on crop circles,
nothing else. If it was directed at anything other than what Erik said, he
was very unclear.

>On the crop circle argument...having been one of the "odd sods" with rope
>and boards who made one of these things once, and having fooled a number of
>people with it for some weeks, I feel fairly certain that it can be faked.

I don't deny that they can be believably faked. My issue is with denial of
a statement by ridiculing it with no evidence to support yourself.

And yes, this is very off topic. It what the list does best.


Mike Broadwater
Member of the Blackhand, White Wolf's Official Demo Team
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon/
Message no. 6
From: XaOs <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Crop Circles (was Re: Ancient Civilization)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 00:33:44 -0500
> At 10:26 PM 8/26/98 -0700, William Ashe wrote:
> >>Yes there are people who use rope and boards to make crop circles, but
> >>when they do they always break the stalks of the crops that they lay
> >>down. But some of the crop circles are found with the stalks bent
> >>down *without* any damage. Something that the investigators and the
> >>twonk circle makers haven't figured out how to accomplish yet.
> >>
> >><snip>

<me snip too>
Note that there are no 'facts' with references in the statement above.
You'll need to remember that later.

> >Yeah and I got some primo oceanfront property in Arizona that
> I'll let you
> >have cheap ... homestaeding laws and all. Oh yeah and I got the
> secret to
> >Cold Fusion too.

Again, no facts presented in this humorous refutation.

> Hmm...that's what we call the "pseudo-reasoning". Attempting to disprove
> Erik's statement by mocking it.

Here's the part where you remember what I said. Erik's statement presented
no facts (references to specific studies/articles, etc). It appears from
your arguements that you believe that what he said was fact.

> Childish and simplistic, at best. You
> have information that can in some way contradict Erik's, correct?
> Something you're willing to point to? Some info at all? I'm sure your
> feeble comments were leading up to something.

They were no more feeble than the unsubstantiated comments that you wish him
to defend himself against.

(Nothing personal really). I'm not saying I have facts either way. I just
don't think it's necessary for him to reply to unsubstantiated 'facts' with
substantiated facts.

-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
Message no. 7
From: Michael Broadwater <neon@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Crop Circles (was Re: Ancient Civilization)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 00:59:29 -0500
At 12:33 AM 8/27/98 -0500, XaOs wrote:

>> Hmm...that's what we call the "pseudo-reasoning". Attempting to
disprove
>> Erik's statement by mocking it.
>
>Here's the part where you remember what I said. Erik's statement presented
>no facts (references to specific studies/articles, etc). It appears from
>your arguements that you believe that what he said was fact.

Actually, as I found out, it wasn't Erik, but that's immaterial. The point
is, whether or not the statement contained any "facts", it was a statement,
if unsupported. I never said that it what was stated was true or not, what
I disagreed with was the method that was used to disagree with the
arguement. Rather than contradicting what was said, it was ridiculed, in
an effort to make the list believe that it's a silly idea, and couldn't
possibly be true. The burden of proof (or disproof in this case) wasn't on
the original statement, but on the commentator.

>> Childish and simplistic, at best. You
>> have information that can in some way contradict Erik's, correct?
>> Something you're willing to point to? Some info at all? I'm sure your
>> feeble comments were leading up to something.
>
>They were no more feeble than the unsubstantiated comments that you wish him
>to defend himself against.

Actually, it's a bad arguing technique that's used far too often, and is
worse than an unsubstantiated claim. "If I make fun of you, no matter how
believable you are, people won't believe. I win."

>(Nothing personal really). I'm not saying I have facts either way. I just
>don't think it's necessary for him to reply to unsubstantiated 'facts' with
>substantiated facts.

Actually, you're wrong. If you're going to say that something is wrong for
whatever reason, you need to be able to support it. Otherwise, you're
guilty of faulty reasoning. A perfect example would be if I had just said
"no, you're wrong" in this e-mail, and not explained why. Most of what
people say on this list is unsubstantiated, but it's used because it comes
from a reliable source in our opinions. I'm willing to believe any
statement made by a member of this list that seems reasonable. I will not,
however, disregard an arguement simply because some makes fun of it without
supporting it.

My final example before I dismiss class for the night <g>. Let's say we
were having some discussion about submarines and torpedoes. Let's pretend
Paul Adam makes some statement about speeds and sonar signatures and how it
relates to Sr, and I come back with the statement "Sure, next you'll tell
me that whales have signature X." Are you going to ignore what Paul said
because I made fun of it? No. In fact, given that Paul is a pretty
reliable source (or was, I don't know if he's still on RN), people will
probably think "That Broadwater guy is being an idiot again." (it wouldn't
be the first time.)

Before this becomes anymore useless to the list, I'm stopping. I'm guilty
of too much OT'ness as it is. You can e-mail me privately about this, but
I have a feeling we'll just go around and around in circles.

So let's stay civil :)



Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon/
"Unarmed fighting is what I do between clips."
-- Sifu George Vance
Message no. 8
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Crop Circles (was Re: Ancient Civilization)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 09:21:50 -0400
Michael Broadwater wrote:
>
> Before this becomes anymore useless to the list, I'm stopping. I'm guilty
> of too much OT'ness as it is. You can e-mail me privately about this, but
> I have a feeling we'll just go around and around in circles.

Well, yes, but will we have any stalks broken? Or will all just stomp on
each other with rope and boards? >8->

(Personally, I'm amused because I've yet to hear any thoughtful theories
as to *why*, if aliens were going to contact us, they'd do it solely
through the medium of wheat...)


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 9
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Crop Circles (was Re: Ancient Civilization)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 12:46:05 -0400
At 09:04 PM 8/26/98 -0400, you wrote:

>Yes there are people who use rope and boards to make crop circles, but
>when they do they always break the stalks of the crops that they lay
>down. But some of the crop circles are found with the stalks bent
>down *without* any damage. Something that the investigators and the
>twonk circle makers haven't figured out how to accomplish yet.

Incorrect.

My reference and knowledge is based upon a fairly in-depth television
program that aired on TLC or Discovery some time back this summer. Went
into the history of it, had interviews with the "believers" and the "twonk
circle makers."

What was most convincing however was they videotaped, I believe there were
three individuals, a very complex crop circle being made.

Complex geometry, complex "twisting" patterns to how the wheat was
flattened, even *bent* but not damaged stalks.

All caught on videotape, revealing that all those things that are
supposedly impossible to be done by mere humans were done by a couple of
oddballs with what essentially amounts to some sticks and some rope.

I came into this show nearly tabula rasa, having heard of the circles,
thinking they were odd, but having no idea how they were made. This show
displayed in fine detail that they are nothing but human creations.

Which all gets back to my original point; humans, mere mortals, are capable
of surprising and amazing things sometimes. We don't need aliens, we don't
need Immortal Elves to get ourselves into messes and we don't need them to
get ourselves out of them.

Erik J.

Further Reading

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