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Message no. 1
From: Dale Talbert <LuvsAmanda@***.COM>
Subject: Cultured Bioware?
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 16:46:44 -0400
I have a question that I am kind of confused about. Does cultured bioware
reduce the essence of a mage just as regular bioware does?
-Dale
Message no. 2
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Cultured Bioware?
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 13:45:18 -0700
| I have a question that I am kind of confused about. Does cultured
bioware
| reduce the essence of a mage just as regular bioware does?

Yes it does, but our group plays with the rule that the bioware lowers the
magic attribute, but not the essence of the character. I believe that is
the way it was originally supposed to work, didn't they fix it in some
errata or another?


-Caric


Word to the wise... Never anger a dragon, for you are crunchy, and would
be good with brie!!!

-Karl Teranssen av Drakkar
Message no. 3
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Cultured Bioware?
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 16:56:05 -0400
Dale asks:
>I have a question that I am kind of confused about. Does cultured bioware
>reduce the essence of a mage just as regular bioware does?


No. Bioware affects a magickally enhanced person's Magic Rating just
like cyberware [no matter what the grade], but his Essence stays the
SAME, jus like the magickally challenged among us :-].
Message no. 4
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Cultured Bioware?
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 22:01:21 +0100
|
|I have a question that I am kind of confused about. Does cultured bioware
|reduce the essence of a mage just as regular bioware does?

Why shouldn't it?
It's still an invasion to the aura....

(I don't have whatever book that's in though)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 5
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Cultured Bioware?
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 22:02:44 +0100
|
|Dale asks:
|>I have a question that I am kind of confused about. Does cultured bioware
|>reduce the essence of a mage just as regular bioware does?
|
|No. Bioware affects a magickally enhanced person's Magic Rating just
|like cyberware [no matter what the grade], but his Essence stays the
|SAME, jus like the magickally challenged among us :-].

Nope. Unless there IS an errata (which I haven't seen) it uses ESSENSE.
Look it up in shadowtech.
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 6
From: Dale Talbert <LuvsAmanda@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Cultured Bioware?
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 17:23:10 -0400
In a message dated 97-05-14 17:10:54 EDT, u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK (Spike)
writes:

<< Why shouldn't it?
It's still an invasion to the aura....
>>
Not really, not if it is 100% cloned from your own DNA.
-Dale
Message no. 7
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Cultured Bioware?
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 22:31:12 +0100
|
|In a message dated 97-05-14 17:10:54 EDT, u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK (Spike)
|writes:
|
|<< Why shouldn't it?
| It's still an invasion to the aura....
| >>
|Not really, not if it is 100% cloned from your own DNA.

It can't be 100% cloned "from your own DNA". If it was, you wouldn't GAIN
anything from it.

The human body doesn't HAVE a suprathyroid gland. If it did, you wouldn't
need to surgically implant one made by bioware.

All bioware implants are cloned, maybe even from your own tissue, but they
still have to be genetically engineered to alter their properties....

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 8
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Cultured Bioware?
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:58:45 -0700
| << Why shouldn't it?
| It's still an invasion to the aura....
| >>
| Not really, not if it is 100% cloned from your own DNA.

If it's 100% clonal it's not Bioware it's just an exact replacement with no
special properties.

-Caric


Word to the wise... Never anger a dragon, for you are crunchy, and would
be good with brie!!!

-Karl Teranssen av Drakkar
Message no. 9
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cultured Bioware?
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 18:42:51 -0400
At 04:46 PM 5/14/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I have a question that I am kind of confused about. Does cultured bioware
>reduce the essence of a mage just as regular bioware does?
>-Dale
>

Yes. Whatever the piece of bio is having it be cultured only reduces the
essence cost for the mage in question.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Ah at last! The TRANSFORMATION is complete!
For YEARS they mocked me! They took the name EMMANUEL LEWIS in vain!
But tonight RETRIBUTION will be mine!
For I am REBORN as --WEBSTER--, The adorable scamp of DOOM!
Ma'am's and Georges beware Webster walks the earth and he's got a
HANKERIN' for some SPANKERIN'!

Man did I nail this mad doctor routine or WHAT?
"Deadpool #4"

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 10
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Cultured Bioware?
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 21:11:05 EDT
On Wed, 14 May 1997 17:23:10 -0400 Dale Talbert <LuvsAmanda@***.COM>
writes:
>In a message dated 97-05-14 17:10:54 EDT, u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK
>(Spike)
>writes:
>
><< Why shouldn't it?
> It's still an invasion to the aura....
> >>
>Not really, not if it is 100% cloned from your own DNA.

But, it isn't _100%_ identical. What happens with cultured bioware is
that the docs use your genetic code as a _base_ for clonal body needed to
grow the part. The docs take your DNA, alter it to produce the special
organ, then grow the organ. It matches more closely with your DNA and
won't bother overly sensitve immune systems (it's got the right antigens
and all). But it's still _not_ your own DNA, just a very close copy. BTW,
how likely is it that a regenerate (like a vampire or a were) could use
bioware? Or cultured bioware?

Here's another idea: Genetic alteration doesn't cost you on your Magic
Attribute (implying some ability to actually _alter_ one's aura). Could
you use a method in which the person's DNA was changed to reflect the
new, enhanced organs (this wouldn't give them the boost, I don't think,
since the person doens't yet _have_ the organs) and then have organs
implanted to avoid Magic loss? And before you dismiss it as a munchy
idea, remember the amount of nuyen that would have to be sunk into a
person to do this. (hint: GMs will get more use out of this idea than
anyone else:)


--
-Canthros
And ye shall know the truth, and lobo1@****.com
the truth shall set you free. canthros1@***.com
--John 8:32, KJV
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 11
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Cultured Bioware?
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:04:27 +0100
Fisher, Victor said on 16:56/14 May 97...

> No. Bioware affects a magickally enhanced person's Magic Rating just
> like cyberware [no matter what the grade], but his Essence stays the
> SAME, jus like the magickally challenged among us :-].

For the record, the above is a house rule; Shadowtech explicitly states
that bioware costs Essence equal to its Body Cost when implanted into a
magician (see the last paragraph on page 5). It is a common house rule to
do things the way Victor describes, though.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Everybody's tired of something.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 12
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Cultured Bioware?
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 20:14:23 +1000
> |
> |Dale asks:
> |>I have a question that I am kind of confused about. Does cultured bioware
> |>reduce the essence of a mage just as regular bioware does?
> |
> |No. Bioware affects a magickally enhanced person's Magic Rating just
> |like cyberware [no matter what the grade], but his Essence stays the
> |SAME, jus like the magickally challenged among us :-].
>
> Nope. Unless there IS an errata (which I haven't seen) it uses ESSENSE.
> Look it up in shadowtech.

Yeah, well it only really matters if you actually play that it directly
affects essence.... don't know too many people that use that rule.

Marty
Message no. 13
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Cultured Bioware?
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:04:27 +0100
Dale Talbert said on 16:46/14 May 97...

> I have a question that I am kind of confused about. Does cultured bioware
> reduce the essence of a mage just as regular bioware does?

It most definitely does. Cultured bioware is indentical to normal bioware,
except for the 25% reduction in Body cost, which means it also costs 25%
less Essence to a magician, but it still costs Essence under the standard
rules from Shadowtech.

However, many people use a house rule that says bioware doesn't cost
Essence, but does lower the Magic Attribute _as_if_ it costs Essence.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Everybody's tired of something.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 14
From: Shane Courtrille <hardware@*******.DATANET.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Cultured Bioware?
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 00:00:07 +0000
> Yes it does, but our group plays with the rule that the bioware lowers the
> magic attribute, but not the essence of the character. I believe that is
> the way it was originally supposed to work, didn't they fix it in some
> errata or another?

Uhhh.. Bioware increases your body index.. thats all it does... all
it ever has done...

side note- in my game I've taken the stand that Bioware dosen't lower
a magic attribute... course Bioware is very hard to get in my game...

*wave*

Shane Courtrille - hardware@*******.ab.ca
Message no. 15
From: Dust <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
Subject: Re: Cultured Bioware?
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 08:51:29 -0400
On Wed, 14 May 1997, Dale Talbert wrote:

> I have a question that I am kind of confused about. Does cultured bioware
> reduce the essence of a mage just as regular bioware does?
> -Dale
>
Yup. If it doesn't reduce essence then I'm certainly not going to
allow it in my campaigns. There's too much potential for munchkinism.
A combat mage in my campaign wanted cultured bioware because he thought it
wouldn't cost essence but I told him otherwise. CAN YOU IMAGINE A COMBAT
MAGE WITH A BODY OF 5 WITH CULTURED BIOWARE THAT DOESN'T TAKE AWAY FROM
HIS MAGIC RATING? Very scary thought, thank you.

Dust
Message no. 16
From: woneal@*******.NET
Subject: Re: Cultured Bioware?
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:50:23 -0005
On 14 May 97 at 16:46, Dale Talbert wrote:

> I have a question that I am kind of confused about. Does cultured
> bioware reduce the essence of a mage just as regular bioware does? -Dale

Neither form of bioware reduces the essence of anyone. Bioware creates a
Body Index. The index is then subtracted from a magically active
character's Magic Rating to determine what their reduced Magic Rating is.
On my own character sheets I keep track of the total cost in Essence of
all cyberware, plus the total body index of all bioware, to make it easy
to keep track of reductions to Magic Rating as well as other game
mechanics.
--

Ashlocke
(woneal@*******.net)

"We shall never be able to remove suspicion and fear
as potential causes of war until communication is
permitted to flow, free and open, across international
boundries." -- Harry S. Truman
Message no. 17
From: woneal@*******.NET
Subject: Re: Cultured Bioware?
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:50:23 -0005
On 14 May 97 at 17:23, Dale Talbert wrote:

> In a message dated 97-05-14 17:10:54 EDT, u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK
> (Spike) writes:
>
> << Why shouldn't it?
> It's still an invasion to the aura....
> >>
> Not really, not if it is 100% cloned from your own DNA.
> -Dale

Even in this case the resultant bioware is still not an exact clone of
your own tissue. It's been genetically altered, which creates a
differance that in turn affects the physical and astral "templates". Or,
simply put, it throws your astral body slightly out of sync with your meat
body and that hampers your ability to pump mana.

--

Ashlocke
(woneal@*******.net)

"We shall never be able to remove suspicion and fear
as potential causes of war until communication is
permitted to flow, free and open, across international
boundries." -- Harry S. Truman
Message no. 18
From: woneal@*******.NET
Subject: Re: Cultured Bioware?
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:50:23 -0005
On 14 May 97 at 21:11, L Canthros wrote:

>
> Here's another idea: Genetic alteration doesn't cost you on your Magic
> Attribute (implying some ability to actually _alter_ one's aura). Could
> you use a method in which the person's DNA was changed to reflect the
> new, enhanced organs (this wouldn't give them the boost, I don't think,
> since the person doens't yet _have_ the organs) and then have organs
> implanted to avoid Magic loss? And before you dismiss it as a munchy
> idea, remember the amount of nuyen that would have to be sunk into a
> person to do this. (hint: GMs will get more use out of this idea than
> anyone else:)
>
In a word, nope. The reason being, or at least my understanding of it is
this: a magically active character is able to draw raw mana in through
their astral body, transfer that through and then release it out through
their physical body. To do this, the astral "template" and physical
"template" have to be in sync. Everytime you alter the physical body, you
alter that physical template, but the astral remains the same. The result
is you start knocking the two out of sync, which makes it increasingly
harder to draw the mana through to the physical (hence the lower magic
rating and increased risk of physical damage with high force spells). In
your example, some sort of "universal genetic recoding" of the whole body
would likely strip a magically active character of all magical ability, or
at least drastically reduce it.
--

Ashlocke
(woneal@*******.net)

"We shall never be able to remove suspicion and fear
as potential causes of war until communication is
permitted to flow, free and open, across international
boundries." -- Harry S. Truman
Message no. 19
From: Lars Fucking Olsen <larsols@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Cultured Bioware?
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 22:05:29 +0200
On Thu, 15 May 1997, Gurth wrote:

> Fisher, Victor said on 16:56/14 May 97...
>
> > No. Bioware affects a magickally enhanced person's Magic Rating just
> > like cyberware [no matter what the grade], but his Essence stays the
> > SAME, jus like the magickally challenged among us :-].
>
> For the record, the above is a house rule; Shadowtech explicitly states
> that bioware costs Essence equal to its Body Cost when implanted into a
> magician (see the last paragraph on page 5). It is a common house rule to

Yes we have always done it like he says. But I thought it was in a book
somewhere. We have something called a Body Index, where you cannot press
in more BW than you have in natural body.


-lars
Message no. 20
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Cultured Bioware?
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:08:20 -0700
| > For the record, the above is a house rule; Shadowtech explicitly states
| > that bioware costs Essence equal to its Body Cost when implanted into a
| > magician (see the last paragraph on page 5). It is a common house rule
to
|
| Yes we have always done it like he says. But I thought it was in a book
| somewhere. We have something called a Body Index, where you cannot press
| in more BW than you have in natural body.


That's correct Lars, but it also says for Magicians that Bioware subtracts
from essence as well...thereby lowering the mages magic attribute.

-Caric

Who still believes that some errata corrected the bioware - essence thing,
but can't find it.

Word to the wise... Never anger a dragon, for you are crunchy, and would
be good with brie!!!

-Karl Teranssen av Drakkar
Message no. 21
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Cultured Bioware?
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 21:37:57 +0100
|
|On 14 May 97 at 16:46, Dale Talbert wrote:
|
|> I have a question that I am kind of confused about. Does cultured
|> bioware reduce the essence of a mage just as regular bioware does? -Dale
|
| Neither form of bioware reduces the essence of anyone.

Stop quoting house rules as cannon.....
Bioware costs essense. It's in black and white in shadowtech.
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 22
From: Denzil Kruse <dkruse@***.AZ05.BULL.COM>
Subject: Re: Cultured Bioware?
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:21:00 MST
>
> << Why shouldn't it?
> It's still an invasion to the aura....
> >>
> Not really, not if it is 100% cloned from your own DNA.
> -Dale

> Even in this case the resultant bioware is still not an exact clone
of
>your own tissue. It's been genetically altered, which creates a
>differance that in turn affects the physical and astral "templates". Or,
>simply put, it throws your astral body slightly out of sync with your meat
>body and that hampers your ability to pump mana.
>
>Ashlocke

I don't think bioware disturbs your aura because it not a genetic match, but
because it is quite clearly not what you were born with - it changes the
body and does something your body wasn't designed for. Even though bioware
is organic, it is still engineered and artificial. It works better with the
physical body than cyberware, but has the same effect on the magic attribute
as cyberware because it is not natural.

But, I think that a cloned body part, even if not a 100% match, will only
temporarily hurt an aura and mage's magical attribute. I don't think auras
are set in stone, or permanent templates. They are a reflection of a living
being, which changes, grows, and reacts to things like damage. So, I think
the aura will "heal" around a cloned arm, thus not affecting the magic
attribute because it is natural.

Denzil Kruse
d.kruse@****.com
Message no. 23
From: Lars Fucking Olsen <larsols@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Cultured Bioware?
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 23:06:05 +0200
On Thu, 15 May 1997, Dust wrote:

> On Wed, 14 May 1997, Dale Talbert wrote:
>
> > I have a question that I am kind of confused about. Does cultured bioware
> > reduce the essence of a mage just as regular bioware does?
> > -Dale
> >
> Yup. If it doesn't reduce essence then I'm certainly not going to
> allow it in my campaigns. There's too much potential for munchkinism.
> A combat mage in my campaign wanted cultured bioware because he thought it
> wouldn't cost essence but I told him otherwise. CAN YOU IMAGINE A COMBAT
> MAGE WITH A BODY OF 5 WITH CULTURED BIOWARE THAT DOESN'T TAKE AWAY FROM
> HIS MAGIC RATING? Very scary thought, thank you.

It is wrong (imho anyways) to reduce essence by getting bodyware. Use the
bodyindex rule instead, and still take down their magic rating for every
1 they pass on their bodyindex (the bodyindex cannot go past their
natural body rating, else they collaps, or the sky falls on their heads
or something equally nasty)

-lars
Message no. 24
From: Dale Talbert <LuvsAmanda@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Cultured Bioware?
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 02:29:35 -0400
In a message dated 97-05-15 16:25:51 EDT, caric@********.COM (Caric) writes:

<< For the record, the above is a house rule; Shadowtech explicitly states
| > that bioware costs Essence equal to its Body Cost when implanted into a
| > magician (see the last paragraph on page 5). It is a common house rule
to
|
| Yes we have always done it like he says. But I thought it was in a book
| somewhere. We have something called a Body Index, where you cannot press
| in more BW than you have in natural body.


That's correct Lars, but it also says for Magicians that Bioware subtracts
from essence as well...thereby lowering the mages magic attribute. >>

Okay, thanks for all the comments and all, but would it be reasonable to make
a house rule where the mage uses a body index and doesn't lose his essence
yet still loses magic ratings as if it were cyberware being implanted??
-Dale
Message no. 25
From: Dale Talbert <LuvsAmanda@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Cultured Bioware?
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 02:35:56 -0400
In a message dated 97-05-15 17:03:42 EDT, woneal@*******.NET writes:

<< Neither form of bioware reduces the essence of anyone. Bioware creates a
Body Index. The index is then subtracted from a magically active
character's Magic Rating to determine what their reduced Magic Rating is.
On my own character sheets I keep track of the total cost in Essence of
all cyberware, plus the total body index of all bioware, to make it easy
to keep track of reductions to Magic Rating as well as other game
mechanics. >>

Thats the kind of answer I was looking for but I do believe that the
ShadowTech book specifically states that the mage loses Essence.
Thanx,
-Dale
Message no. 26
From: Technomancer <arvanit@***.UCH.GR>
Subject: Re: Cultured Bioware?
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:40:49 +0300
On Fri, 16 May 1997, Dale Talbert wrote:
>
> Okay, thanks for all the comments and all, but would it be reasonable to make
> a house rule where the mage uses a body index and doesn't lose his essence
> yet still loses magic ratings as if it were cyberware being implanted??
>

I think this is the most reasonable thing to do, and what the rules meant.
(When I get to use bioware in my campaign I shall follow it.)
*********************************************************************
* Technomancer * Modesty is one of my countless virtues *
* arvanit@***.uch.gr *
* http://www.csd.uch.gr/~arvanit/ *
*********************************************************************
Message no. 27
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Cultured Bioware?
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 11:11:27 +0100
|Okay, thanks for all the comments and all, but would it be reasonable to make
|a house rule where the mage uses a body index and doesn't lose his essence
|yet still loses magic ratings as if it were cyberware being implanted??

That's the house rule that one hell of a lot of people here DO use.
(I don't).

The point was that people were stating their house rules as if they were the
REAL ones....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 28
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Cultured Bioware?
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 11:24:13 GMT
Dale Talbert writes
>
>
> That's correct Lars, but it also says for Magicians that Bioware subtracts
> from essence as well...thereby lowering the mages magic attribute. >>
>
Refer to p5 of shadowtech, correct.

> Okay, thanks for all the comments and all, but would it be reasonable to make
> a house rule where the mage uses a body index and doesn't lose his essence
> yet still loses magic ratings as if it were cyberware being implanted??

Well you would be joining the majority at least here, this is a very
common house rule.
It is critical for game balance that the magic rating is reduced but
essence just does not make sense.

Mark
Message no. 29
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Cultured Bioware?
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 07:50:20 -0600
Spike wrote:
|
| |Okay, thanks for all the comments and all, but would it be reasonable to make
| |a house rule where the mage uses a body index and doesn't lose his essence
| |yet still loses magic ratings as if it were cyberware being implanted??
|
| That's the house rule that one hell of a lot of people here DO use.
| (I don't).
|
| The point was that people were stating their house rules as if they were the
| REAL ones....

It should be pointed out to the new people that this is one of those
endless debates that comes up from time to time because the idea of
bioware costing essence for mages only doesn't make a lot of sense to
most people (nothing against the people who agree with it). And,
IIRC, another problem arises because one sentance in the rules states
that bioware costs mages essence, then another sentance on, or near,
the same page could be interpreted to contradict that statement. And
then the flames start flying :)

As long as the body index of bioware is subtracted from a mage's magic
rating your okay. Its up to you whether or not the body index is also
subtracted from a mage's essence.

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 30
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Cultured Bioware?
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 16:09:07 +0000
Dale wrote:
> Okay, thanks for all the comments and all, but would it be reasonable to make
> a house rule where the mage uses a body index and doesn't lose his essence
> yet still loses magic ratings as if it were cyberware being implanted??
> -Dale

It wouldn't be entirely unreasonable...

The arguments why to use essence loss for mages' bioware is:
It's the rule in the shadowtech book.

Essence is a 'set' limit - you do not get more essence
from initiating; thus mages, who are supposed to remain as 'pure' as
possible, get a deadly limit on how much they put in themselves.

Essence is used for calculating TN's for some spells and for
critter powers. (They're paranormals and loose essence too).
Balance wise, it makes bioware no more useful than cyberware for
critters and mages.

The arguments against bioware costing mages' essence is:
A mage's unique attribute is the magic rating and not the essence
rating. When noone else looses essence, it does not make sense for
mages to do so.



Is the arguments for this house rule better than those against? Your
choice, chummer. Feel free to add your two cents on either side of
the scale.



RF
--


"But the dread of something after death,
The undiscovered country, from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have,
Than fly to others that we no not of."
Message no. 31
From: woneal@*******.NET
Subject: Re: Cultured Bioware?
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 13:33:07 -0005
On 16 May 97 at 2:35, Dale Talbert wrote:

> In a message dated 97-05-15 17:03:42 EDT, woneal@*******.NET writes:
>
> << Neither form of bioware reduces the essence of anyone. Bioware
> creates a
> Body Index. The index is then subtracted from a magically active
> character's Magic Rating to determine what their reduced Magic Rating
> is. On my own character sheets I keep track of the total cost in Essence
> of all cyberware, plus the total body index of all bioware, to make it
> easy to keep track of reductions to Magic Rating as well as other game
> mechanics. >>
>
> Thats the kind of answer I was looking for but I do believe that the
> ShadowTech book specifically states that the mage loses Essence. Thanx,
> -Dale

It does, I didn't double check my answer unfortunately until after I'd
posted. However, like Caric I was fairly certain there had been some
errata changing what was said. I can't say that for certain because I've
been unable to locate such an errata sheet, either in my own files or on
the web. So officially the Shadowtech rule stands.
In my own opinion, I think my explanation makes more sense. In either
case the end result is the same however, the Magic Rating gets reduced.
--

Ashlocke
(woneal@*******.net)

"We shall never be able to remove suspicion and fear
as potential causes of war until communication is
permitted to flow, free and open, across international
boundries." -- Harry S. Truman
Message no. 32
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Cultured Bioware?
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:03:15 +0100
Dale Talbert said on 2:29/16 May 97...

> Okay, thanks for all the comments and all, but would it be reasonable to make
> a house rule where the mage uses a body index and doesn't lose his essence
> yet still loses magic ratings as if it were cyberware being implanted??

Half the people on this list probably use that as a house rule. It doesn't
change much of the actual game effects of implanting bioware into a
magician, except for one thing: healing spells are slightly easier to
cast with this house rule than without it.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
In another place, in another time, I'd be driving trucks
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
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Message no. 33
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Cultured Bioware?
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:03:15 +0100
Lars Fucking Olsen said on 22:05/15 May 97...

> > For the record, the above is a house rule; Shadowtech explicitly states
> > that bioware costs Essence equal to its Body Cost when implanted into a
> > magician (see the last paragraph on page 5). It is a common house rule to
>
> Yes we have always done it like he says. But I thought it was in a book
> somewhere. We have something called a Body Index, where you cannot press
> in more BW than you have in natural body.

*sigh* Yes, bioware has a Body Cost, which adds to your Body Index when
you buy it. However, as Shadowtech specifically states, a magician
character must ALSO pay Essence equal to the Body Cost of the bioware.
Other characters (not magically active) get only the Body Index, which may
not exceed the character's Body unless you want to risk system shock (+1
to all Body tests for every point by which your Body Index exceeds your
Body rating).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
In another place, in another time, I'd be driving trucks
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
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Message no. 34
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Cultured Bioware?
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 16:04:07 EDT
On Thu, 15 May 1997 08:51:29 -0400 Dust <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
writes:
>On Wed, 14 May 1997, Dale Talbert wrote:
<snip Dale's question>
<<Yup. If it doesn't reduce essence then I'm certainly not going to
allow it in my campaigns. There's too much potential for munchkinism. A
combat mage in my campaign wanted cultured bioware because he thought it
wouldn't cost essence but I told him otherwise. CAN YOU IMAGINE A COMBAT
MAGE WITH A BODY OF 5 WITH CULTURED BIOWARE THAT DOESN'T TAKE AWAY FROM
HIS MAGIC RATING? Very scary thought, thank you.>>

The house rule where Bioware doesn't cost Essence, still costs the person
Magic Rating. Basically Magic Rating becomes Essence, minus Body Index,
rounded down. IOW, the character still loses on Magic, but they don't
lose twice on Magic AND Essence.

--
-Canthros
And ye shall know the truth, and lobo1@****.com
the truth shall set you free. canthros1@***.com
--John 8:32, KJV
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 35
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Cultured Bioware?
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 16:04:07 EDT
On Thu, 15 May 1997 14:50:23 -0005 woneal@*******.NET writes:
On 14 May 97 at 21:11, L Canthros wrote:

>>
>> Here's another idea: Genetic alteration doesn't cost you on your Magic
>> Attribute (implying some ability to actually _alter_ one's aura).
Could
>> you use a method in which the person's DNA was changed to reflect the
>> new, enhanced organs (this wouldn't give them the boost, I don't
think,
>> since the person doens't yet _have_ the organs) and then have organs
>> implanted to avoid Magic loss? And before you dismiss it as a munchy
>> idea, remember the amount of nuyen that would have to be sunk into a
>> person to do this. (hint: GMs will get more use out of this idea than
>> anyone else:)
>>
>In a word, nope. The reason being, or at least my understanding of it
is
>this: a magically active character is able to draw raw mana in through
>their astral body, transfer that through and then release it out through
>their physical body. To do this, the astral "template" and physical
>"template" have to be in sync. Everytime you alter the physical body,
you
>alter that physical template, but the astral remains the same. The
result
>is you start knocking the two out of sync, which makes it increasingly
>harder to draw the mana through to the physical (hence the lower magic
>rating and increased risk of physical damage with high force spells).
In
>your example, some sort of "universal genetic recoding" of the whole
body
>would likely strip a magically active character of all magical ability,
or
>at least drastically reduce it.

But, If you look at Shadowtech, you'll see that genetic alteration
(including genetic cleansing, correction and full spectrum immunization)
doesn't cost Body Index, doesn't cost Essence, doesn't cost Magic. It's
almost like the astral template (an explanation for Essence Loss I agree
with, btw) is based not off of the person's original physical form, but
off of their genetic code. Altering the genetic code changes the astral
template, as well as the physical one. If nothing else, I'd like to hear
everyone's ideas on this, because I don't see any reason why it couldn't
work, so long as the magician's 'magus factor' (if that's even actually
encoded in the DNA) isn't overwritten or altered in the process of
re-structuring the DNA to accomodate the enhanced organs.

--
-Canthros
And ye shall know the truth, and lobo1@****.com
the truth shall set you free. canthros1@***.com
--John 8:32, KJV
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 36
From: woneal@*******.NET
Subject: Re: Cultured Bioware?
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 17:47:11 -0005
On 16 May 97 at 16:04, L Canthros wrote:

>> >In a word, nope. The reason being, or at least my understanding of it
> is
> >this: a magically active character is able to draw raw mana in through
> >their astral body, transfer that through and then release it out through
> >their physical body. To do this, the astral "template" and physical
> >"template" have to be in sync. Everytime you alter the physical body,
> you
> >alter that physical template, but the astral remains the same. The
> result
> >is you start knocking the two out of sync, which makes it increasingly
> >harder to draw the mana through to the physical (hence the lower magic
> >rating and increased risk of physical damage with high force spells).
> In
> >your example, some sort of "universal genetic recoding" of the whole
> body
> >would likely strip a magically active character of all magical ability,
> or
> >at least drastically reduce it.
>
> But, If you look at Shadowtech, you'll see that genetic alteration
> (including genetic cleansing, correction and full spectrum immunization)
> doesn't cost Body Index, doesn't cost Essence, doesn't cost Magic. It's
> almost like the astral template (an explanation for Essence Loss I agree
> with, btw) is based not off of the person's original physical form, but
> off of their genetic code. Altering the genetic code changes the astral
> template, as well as the physical one. If nothing else, I'd like to hear
> everyone's ideas on this, because I don't see any reason why it couldn't
> work, so long as the magician's 'magus factor' (if that's even actually
> encoded in the DNA) isn't overwritten or altered in the process of
> re-structuring the DNA to accomodate the enhanced organs.

Okay, several points here.
a) genetic cleansing, correction and the like all work to return the body
to it's "natural" healthy state. In most cases they serve more to bring
the body back in line with the astral than the other way around. Note
that things like leonization *does* have a body index and would cost
essence/magic rating (depending on who's rules you use).

b) what the astral template is based off of isn't clearly defined. We can
make some deductions and educated guesses but FASA has never stated facts
here. However, not long ago there was a debate about whether magic used
to make someone immortal would show up in their genetics. IIRC, Mike
stated that in fact it would not. So that seems to establish a
seperation between the genetic code and the astral template (on the
assumption that the magic is mana, mana is astral energy, astral energy
affects the aura). At least that's the way it seems to my mind, but like
I said, we have few facts here so use your best judgement.

c) There's been banter for years about the "magus factor", a genetic code
for magicians. I tend to think it's more a myth than actual fact. If it
were possible I would think some corporation would have either isolated it
or at least gotten *much* closer. As it stands, no one seems any closer
than we were 8 years ago. I may be wrong but personally I think it's a
wild goose chase. My own opinion is that the "magus factor" rests in some
unique harmony between the astral template and the physical template. But
that's just my own speculation.
--

Ashlocke
(woneal@*******.net)

"We shall never be able to remove suspicion and fear
as potential causes of war until communication is
permitted to flow, free and open, across international
boundries." -- Harry S. Truman
Message no. 37
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Cultured Bioware?
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 19:26:12 EDT
On Fri, 16 May 1997 17:47:11 -0005 woneal@*******.NET writes:
>On 16 May 97 at 16:04, L Canthros wrote:
<snip>
<< Okay, several points here.
a) genetic cleansing, correction and the like all work to return the body
to it's "natural" healthy state. In most cases they serve more to bring
the body back in line with the astral than the other way around. Note
that things like leonization *does* have a body index and would cost
essence/magic rating (depending on who's rules you use).>

Actually, Leonization costs _Essence_, according to the listing at the
bottom of the page, but the paragraph above it (the one describing it)
states that "No gross genomic change occurs, neither is Body Index or
Essence affected in any way." If there is an errata for Shadowtech,
someone please point me toward it, this is another thing that I'd like t
look into. The above sentence does, however, support my position that
genetic alteration does not affect body's physical and astral integrity
(Essence or Body Index would be affected if it did). Mind you, I had to
go check (btw, it's on Shadowtech, pg 76, if you want to check). I'd say
that this requires a decision by the GM.


<<b) what the astral template is based off of isn't clearly defined. We
can make some deductions and educated guesses but FASA has never stated
facts here. However, not long ago there was a debate about whether magic
used to make someone immortal would show up in their genetics. IIRC,
Mike stated that in fact it would not. So that seems to establish a
seperation between the genetic code and the astral template (on the
assumption that the magic is mana, mana is astral energy, astral energy
affects the aura). At least that's the way it seems to my mind, but like
I said, we have few facts here so use your best judgement.>>

The question however does not quite apply when you consider that
immortality as was being discussed did not necessarily involve a change
in the physical form, it just required a change in the astral one.
Second, I'm inclined not to agree with Mike on that point, as the astral
form and the physical form almost always parallel each other. To suggest
that the two are different denies the phenomenon described as aura
reflection, I think, but it's the same thing that you have with
projecting magicians and they're physical bodies. Changes in the aura
create changes in the physical form. The Manipulation spell Armor does
exactly that. Conversely, changes in the physical form may or may not
create changes in the aura, that has never been exactly determined,
though wounds on the physical body don't necessarily cause damage to the
astral form.


<<c) There's been banter for years about the "magus factor", a genetic
code for magicians. I tend to think it's more a myth than actual fact.
If it were possible I would think some corporation would have either
isolated it or at least gotten *much* closer. As it stands, no one seems
any closer than we were 8 years ago. I may be wrong but personally I
think it's a wild goose chase. My own opinion is that the "magus factor"
rests in some unique harmony between the astral template and the physical
template. But that's just my own speculation.>>

I don't really know for sure about the magus factor, though I'm inclined
to believe that the factor may be a portion of the DNA which can,
dependent upon what nucleotide pairs take up residence in that section of
the DNA strand. However, the abilities for which these genes create the
potential for cannot be fully accessed without a strong will and mind to
use them. A totem selects a shaman on the basis of their ability as well
as on the basis of their mental condition. For better or worse, even
toxics are chosen. Mages could be considered the leftovers after the
various shamanic traditions have culled the magicians they want. The
hermetics are those whose personalities, mental condition, capability or
whatever don't match up to the totems' standards. "Many are called, few
are chosen," as was said by a man named Paul, though he was talking about
something a bit different. Second, the magus factor would be linked in
some way to the meta-trigger, which, I believe, is capable of being
triggered at more than one mana level, ie, the meta-trigger code varies
with the level of mana required to trigger it. Higher level meta-triggers
may trigger the expression of more powerful magicks, less human forms of
metahumanity/Awakened critter, etc, etc. As for finding the Magus Factor
code, I don't know. I don't see any reason why it is that they couldn't
just compare various magicians' DNA fingerprints with each other and pick
out the genetic markers which appear with the greatest frequency within
the greatest number of samples. It may be that, as hypothesized, shamen
may not need the Magus Factor for magical ability, since they receive the
power from the totem.

Who really knows?


--
-Canthros-the-shapeshifter-mage
And ye shall know the truth, and lobo1@****.com
the truth shall set you free. canthros1@***.com
--John 8:32, KJV
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 38
From: Walker of Shadows <OABBrother@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Cultured Bioware?
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 17:33:04 -0400
In a message dated 97-05-16 16:08:27 EDT, you write:

<< >>
>> Here's another idea: Genetic alteration doesn't cost you on your Magic
>> Attribute (implying some ability to actually _alter_ one's aura).
Could
>> you use a method in which the person's DNA was changed to reflect the
>> new, enhanced organs (this wouldn't give them the boost, I don't
think,
>> since the person doens't yet _have_ the organs) and then have organs
>> implanted to avoid Magic loss? And before you dismiss it as a munchy
>> idea, remember the amount of nuyen that would have to be sunk into a
>> person to do this. (hint: GMs will get more use out of this idea than
>> anyone else:)
>>
>In a word, nope. The reason being, or at least my understanding of it
is
>this: a magically active character is able to draw raw mana in through
>their astral body, transfer that through and then release it out through
>their physical body. To do this, the astral "template" and physical
>"template" have to be in sync. Everytime you alter the physical body,
you
>alter that physical template, but the astral remains the same. The
result
>is you start knocking the two out of sync, which makes it increasingly
>harder to draw the mana through to the physical (hence the lower magic
>rating and increased risk of physical damage with high force spells).
In
>your example, some sort of "universal genetic recoding" of the whole
body
>would likely strip a magically active character of all magical ability,
or
>at least drastically reduce it.

But, If you look at Shadowtech, you'll see that genetic alteration
(including genetic cleansing, correction and full spectrum immunization)
doesn't cost Body Index, doesn't cost Essence, doesn't cost Magic. It's
almost like the astral template (an explanation for Essence Loss I agree
with, btw) is based not off of the person's original physical form, but
off of their genetic code. Altering the genetic code changes the astral
template, as well as the physical one. If nothing else, I'd like to hear
everyone's ideas on this, because I don't see any reason why it couldn't
work, so long as the magician's 'magus factor' (if that's even actually
encoded in the DNA) isn't overwritten or altered in the process of
re-structuring the DNA to accomodate the enhanced organs.
>>


Actually, Both arguments have merrit. I think that If you were able to alter
the genetic building blocks, it would, say, be changing the entire structure.
So, as long as it doesn't cost body index, or essence, I say go for it.
But, if you want, as a GM have the surgeon "slip up" and have the person
loose a little bit of essence.

Walker of Shadows
Message no. 39
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cultured Bioware?
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:04:07 -0400
> But, If you look at Shadowtech, you'll see that genetic alteration
> (including genetic cleansing, correction and full spectrum immunization)
> doesn't cost Body Index, doesn't cost Essence, doesn't cost Magic. It's
> almost like the astral template (an explanation for Essence Loss I agree
> with, btw) is based not off of the person's original physical form, but
> off of their genetic code. Altering the genetic code changes the astral
> template, as well as the physical one. If nothing else, I'd like to hear
> everyone's ideas on this, because I don't see any reason why it couldn't
> work, so long as the magician's 'magus factor' (if that's even actually
> encoded in the DNA) isn't overwritten or altered in the process of
> re-structuring the DNA to accomodate the enhanced organs.

Cleansing and Correction don't involve changing the genetic code....it's
actually "de-changing" it. I can't come up with a good argument for the
Full-Spec.....

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 40
From: "Boyd Stephen Smith, Jr." <gilmeth@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Cultured Bioware?
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 11:47:56 -0500
This isn't really regarding anyone specific post but, the message is, as =
the Subject says, about bioware.

These would be house rules, yes. So, they aren't cannon and you should =
treat them as such.

Regarding Magic Rating: Magic rating will now be calculated by the =
following formula (Essence-Body Index)+Initiation Grade. The addition of =
bioware in the equation is to enforce the rule that the bioware is NOT =
actually the mage's DNA (even if cultured) and therefore impedes his/her =
ability to cast magic. (All magicians, not just mages, sorry)

Spells with Essence in the Target Number: Any where Essence is found It =
should be replaced by (Essence + 1/2 Body Index). This is to reflect =
that the spell doesn't "expect" bioware to be there because a "normal"
=
person doesn't have any. You use 1/2 because it is much more natural to =
the body that cyberware.

VERY Optional Rule: Healing Magic loss via Bioware. Since bioware is =
much more natural to the body then cyberware (and mainly because someone =
on the thread mentioned it) Magic loss via bioware can be recovered. =
This can occur two different ways. The first is a very natural process =
but, is very slow. The rules for this and some other stuff I will post =
later (as soon as I can get the SSC back). The second is along the lines =
during initiation. Normally, when Initiated a mage a choose to "throw =
off" any geasa that may be effecting his casting. This, I assume, is =
because he becomes more "in tune" with his astral side and no longer has =
to go through the "rituals" to be in "good" contact with it. Along the
=
same lines, since bioware is semi-natural and can possess an aura =
(unlike cyberware) a mage can make the same test (I believe it was a =
test) to regain up to .5 points of magic rating lost via bioware as his =
astral side become more "in tune" with it. This test CANNOT be taken =
during the same initiation that a mage attempts to throw of a geasa.

I like the first two rules. They work very good for me. Adjust specifics =
as you see fit. The last one would be VERY iffy for me. I just don't =
know about that one. It was included for those that like that kind of =
thing.


Twinkie
gilmeth@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/3759/
ICQ UIN: 514984
Sitebuilder Number: 531896

Do NOT use this or any other of my e-mail addresses in a for-profit =
e-mail database. The usage of such an address is bound by the terms =
listed at http://www.rahul.net/starowl/email.html

PS... How do you like my rules?

Further Reading

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