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Message no. 1
From: Daryl Williams <enwill@*****.COM>
Subject: Curious..
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 19:45:02 -0700
I was reading the SR Novel 'ShadowBoxer' and I ran across Delphia's
spiffy little gadget. That VPR-2. I am under the impression that that
thing is a 'auto fastdraw' peice of gear. But, needless to say I was
very impressed with that little doodad. Does anyone know where there
are rules and Stats on the VPR-2?

Daryl
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Message no. 2
From: Danyel N Woods <9604801@********.AC.NZ>
Subject: Re: Curious..
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 16:58:51 +1200
Quoth Daryl Williams (1445 05-8-98 NZT);

>I was reading the SR Novel 'ShadowBoxer' and I ran across Delphia's
>spiffy little gadget. That VPR-2. I am under the impression that that
>thing is a 'auto fastdraw' peice of gear. But, needless to say I was
>very impressed with that little doodad. Does anyone know where there
>are rules and Stats on the VPR-2?

Yeah, but they're not canon: a German player came up with what they
thought it would work like. Go to the Shadowrun Archive's Weapons
category and look for something under the title of InWeLoSys (or
something similar).

(In case you don't know, the Archive is at
www.interware.it/shadowrun/default.asp)

Danyel Woods - 9604801@********.ac.nz
'No, I'm Chaos and he's Mayhem. We're a double act.'
Message no. 3
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Curious..
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 07:41:02 EDT
In a message dated 8/4/98 10:16:44 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
enwill@*****.COM writes:

> I was reading the SR Novel 'ShadowBoxer' and I ran across Delphia's
> spiffy little gadget. That VPR-2. I am under the impression that that
> thing is a 'auto fastdraw' peice of gear. But, needless to say I was
> very impressed with that little doodad. Does anyone know where there
> are rules and Stats on the VPR-2?
>
There are none officially ... though I did come up with something on my own
... go to ...

http://members.aol.com/hhhad2/tech/newgear.htm

It's still not connected to Hacker House yet, but I did make up my version of
the Viper though ...

Let me know if you think that just using the articulated limb from
cybertechnology would have been easier to duplicate the effect.

-Herc
------- The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 4
From: Daryl Williams <enwill@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Curious..
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 18:29:53 -0700
---Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM> wrote:
> There are none officially ... though I did come up with something on
my own
> ... go to ...
>
> http://members.aol.com/hhhad2/tech/newgear.htm
>
> It's still not connected to Hacker House yet, but I did make up my
version of
> the Viper though ...
>
> Let me know if you think that just using the articulated limb from
> cybertechnology would have been easier to duplicate the effect.

Hey thanks.. I looked over your webpage at the Viper.. and
that is a pretty good job of coming up with a way to make it work..
but unfortunately that is not really what he had in the book. From the
description when they first introduce him with the Viper-2 and I quote:

'..extended both his hands... instantly from the belt holster at
his waist a ferruled cable snaked upward, a massive pistol attached to
the end of the metallic support.'

It seems not to be a articulate arm, but in fact just simply a
segmented metal cable.. and it is increbibly fast, kinda like having a
gun with Move by Wire 4 in it. Also, after that.. it slapped into his
right hand..automaticly fired..then the gun went to his
left..automaticly fired..then went back to his right again, again
firing. This thing is a seriously disgusting piece of hardware.. from
what it said that whole system was external. Cause the power supply
was on his belt as well. Though he I think he had to have had a
SmartLink II system to really use it.. but having a gun that could
automaticly fire on command like that, would be seriously helpful..
giving you the ability to draw and fire all in one simple
action..rather nasty.

I think that if you actually made the Viper-2, it the gun would
have to be modified as well, so each Viper would be specificly
designed for a singal individual gun.. and most likely the gun and the
system wouldn't be seperable easily.

Mr. Smith

-- The one on the edge --


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Message no. 5
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Curious..
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 07:25:14 EDT
In a message dated 8/5/98 8:49:07 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
enwill@*****.COM writes:

> ---Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM> wrote:
> > There are none officially ... though I did come up with something on
> my own
> > ... go to ...
> >
> > http://members.aol.com/hhhad2/tech/newgear.htm
> >
> > It's still not connected to Hacker House yet, but I did make up my
> version of
> > the Viper though ...
> >
> > Let me know if you think that just using the articulated limb from
> > cybertechnology would have been easier to duplicate the effect.
>
> Hey thanks.. I looked over your webpage at the Viper.. and
> that is a pretty good job of coming up with a way to make it work..
> but unfortunately that is not really what he had in the book. From the
> description when they first introduce him with the Viper-2 and I quote:
>
> '..extended both his hands... instantly from the belt holster at
> his waist a ferruled cable snaked upward, a massive pistol attached to
> the end of the metallic support.'
>
> It seems not to be a articulate arm, but in fact just simply a
> segmented metal cable.. and it is increbibly fast, kinda like having a
> gun with Move by Wire 4 in it. Also, after that.. it slapped into his
> right hand..automaticly fired..then the gun went to his
> left..automaticly fired..then went back to his right again, again
> firing. This thing is a seriously disgusting piece of hardware.. from
> what it said that whole system was external. Cause the power supply
> was on his belt as well. Though he I think he had to have had a
> SmartLink II system to really use it.. but having a gun that could
> automaticly fire on command like that, would be seriously helpful..
> giving you the ability to draw and fire all in one simple
> action..rather nasty.

I used the articulated limb as the basis for it ... it does not do it entirely
justice, but it serves the purpose as the base of the tech for the VIPER.

And as for having a gun which fires on it's own ... consider this ... set the
smartlink of the gun to fire as soon as someone not in the smartlink is in the
crosshairs ... -OR- ... even worse ... something which counteracts most
invisibility spells and tech ... set any rangefinder for a certain distance,
if something crosses through the rangefinder within the range it is set, the
gun automatically fires.

You could perhaps use the "wild fire" rules ... the name is not right, but the
rule is ... you roll the shooter's reaction to determine the success test of
the gun being shot.

> I think that if you actually made the Viper-2, it the gun would
> have to be modified as well, so each Viper would be specificly
> designed for a singal individual gun.. and most likely the gun and the
> system wouldn't be seperable easily.
>
> Mr. Smith

Hmmm ... perhaps ...

Hrey .. think of this ... a sentry gun system only weighs about 4 kgs, put it
into a backpack ... then combine that with the VIPER system ... and talk about
having an extra gun firing along with you, freeing up your hands for other
things ... and combine it with BTAC FDDM and IVIS this thing could become
scary ...

And yes, we have done this already, and that was 3 to 4 years ago ...

-Herc
------- The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 6
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: Curious..
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 09:25:28 -0400
Daryl Williams wrote:
> Hey thanks.. I looked over your webpage at the Viper.. and
>that is a pretty good job of coming up with a way to make it work..
>but unfortunately that is not really what he had in the book. From the
>description when they first introduce him with the Viper-2 and I quote:
[snip]
>This thing is a seriously disgusting piece of hardware.. from
>what it said that whole system was external. Cause the power supply
>was on his belt as well. Though he I think he had to have had a
>SmartLink II system to really use it.. but having a gun that could
>automaticly fire on command like that, would be seriously helpful..
>giving you the ability to draw and fire all in one simple
>action..rather nasty.

As opposed to drawing the pistol as a free action and firing it as a
simple action (assuming you make your reaction test)? First off, from
the quote it sounds like a really silly piece of cyberware (why bother
moving the gun from hand to hand?), and it doesn't really do anything
gamewise...

James Ojaste
Message no. 7
From: Daryl Williams <enwill@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Curious..
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 07:59:50 -0700
---Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM> wrote:

> I used the articulated limb as the basis for it ... it does not do
it entirely
> justice, but it serves the purpose as the base of the tech for the
VIPER.
>
> And as for having a gun which fires on it's own ... consider this
... set the
> smartlink of the gun to fire as soon as someone not in the smartlink
is in the
> crosshairs ... -OR- ... even worse ... something which counteracts
most
> invisibility spells and tech ... set any rangefinder for a certain
distance,
> if something crosses through the rangefinder within the range it is
set, the
> gun automatically fires.

*Nods* I agree, it does serve as a good basis for the Tech, kinda
like what they guy had on Alien:Resurrection. That would be a good
example of what you have posted on the web. Of course, what the guy
had in the book was a Viper-2 System, soo hehe, mods would have been
made over the previous Viper model (ie: Yours) Mmm. Well as for the
autofire..he only did it a few times..and it was only when he wanted
to, cause he did pull them and not fire instantly, just flashing it
around.
>
> You could perhaps use the "wild fire" rules ... the name is not
right, but the
> rule is ... you roll the shooter's reaction to determine the success
test of
> the gun being shot.

Thats not a bad idea, most likely that is what happened he did pull
the trigger, but it was just written that it went off automaticly,
just for the sake of the effect of quickness.

> Hmmm ... perhaps ...
>
> Hrey .. think of this ... a sentry gun system only weighs about 4
kgs, put it
> into a backpack ... then combine that with the VIPER system ... and
talk about
> having an extra gun firing along with you, freeing up your hands for
other
> things ... and combine it with BTAC FDDM and IVIS this thing could
become
> scary ...
>
> And yes, we have done this already, and that was 3 to 4 years ago ...
>

*Laughs then Runs!* Ohh.. that could be very disgusting
indeed.. kinda like what Burnout had..that MiniGun on a 3rd arm on his
back..eww. hehe.. actually it would be kinda funny you could just take
one of those manportable Grenade Launchers and modify it to take a
Belt Feed..then hook it up the same way. Now that would be nasty.. A
fully automatic GL firing, like that..talk about Infantry Support.

Mr. Smith
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Message no. 8
From: Daryl Williams <enwill@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Curious..
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 08:11:53 -0700
---"Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA> wrote:
>
> As opposed to drawing the pistol as a free action and firing it as a
> simple action (assuming you make your reaction test)? First off, from
> the quote it sounds like a really silly piece of cyberware (why bother
> moving the gun from hand to hand?), and it doesn't really do anything
> gamewise...
>
> James Ojaste

Well I suppose different hardware for different folks. If your PC
is one of those ppl that don't believe in polluting their bodies with
cyberjunk, that piece would be very valuable. That would kind of
important if your a Sammy like that..to beable to have your gun inhand
and ready before the other guy.. especially in a surprise maneauver
like that. Hell who is going to expect you to hold out your empty
hand, and have your gun go to it, instead of having to draw it
normally. As for switching hands..it may not do much for game
mechanics, but it was showing the versatility of the unit, showing
that it could actually switch from hand to hand with, but a thought..
that gives me the impression of a highly advanced weapon system.

Mr. Smith

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Message no. 9
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: Curious..
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:40:27 -0400
Daryl Williams wrote:
>> As opposed to drawing the pistol as a free action and firing it as a
>> simple action (assuming you make your reaction test)? First off, from
>> the quote it sounds like a really silly piece of cyberware (why bother
>> moving the gun from hand to hand?), and it doesn't really do anything
>> gamewise...
>
> Well I suppose different hardware for different folks. If your PC
>is one of those ppl that don't believe in polluting their bodies with
>cyberjunk, that piece would be very valuable. That would kind of

Huh? Drawing your pistol as a free action doesn't require *any* cyber.
It just requires a roll of your reaction dice looking for a 6. Even
"pure" sams will have a good chance of that.

>important if your a Sammy like that..to beable to have your gun inhand
>and ready before the other guy.. especially in a surprise maneauver
>like that. Hell who is going to expect you to hold out your empty

If you want to get into surprise tests, you'll need cyber to stay alive.
Reaction vs reaction when the other guy is cybered is a good way to
die...

>hand, and have your gun go to it, instead of having to draw it
>normally. As for switching hands..it may not do much for game

It's still a surprise test - reaction vs. reaction.

>mechanics, but it was showing the versatility of the unit, showing
>that it could actually switch from hand to hand with, but a thought..
>that gives me the impression of a highly advanced weapon system.

But doing something like that would decrease accuracy, serves no useful
function (game mechanics or otherwise), and requires more power. Why
bother?

James Ojaste
Message no. 10
From: Daryl Williams <enwill@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Curious..
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 08:48:23 -0700
---"Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA> wrote:
>
> Daryl Williams wrote:
> But doing something like that would decrease accuracy, serves no
useful
> function (game mechanics or otherwise), and requires more power. Why
> bother?
>
> James Ojaste
>
I'm sorry.. I suppose there is just two different ways to look at
it.. style and substance.. Roleplaying and Rollplaying. Me.. I prefer
Style and Roleplaying.. and being the underdog, doesn't mean your
going to get dead..it just means you have to be smarter, than the
other chiphead.

Mr. Smith


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Message no. 11
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: Curious..
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:57:23 -0400
Daryl Williams wrote:
>
>> But doing something like that would decrease accuracy, serves no
>useful
>> function (game mechanics or otherwise), and requires more power. Why
>> bother?
>
> I'm sorry.. I suppose there is just two different ways to look at
>it.. style and substance.. Roleplaying and Rollplaying. Me.. I prefer

You don't understand what I'm saying - let me repeat it: the device
serves no useful function - this has two parts:
1) it has no effect on game mechanics (your "rollplaying")
2) it has no benefit in the universe ("roleplaying" - why would a runner
spend good nuyen on something that doesn't actually give him an edge?)

In my opinion, even the style doesn't fit the universe. I just can't
imagine Hatchetman having this gun on a string slapping back and forth
between his hands...

>Style and Roleplaying.. and being the underdog, doesn't mean your
>going to get dead..it just means you have to be smarter, than the
>other chiphead.

Which usually means setting traps or sniping, not hoping to outdraw
the wired speed sam at twenty paces.

James Ojaste
Message no. 12
From: Daryl Williams <enwill@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Curious..
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:01:06 -0700
---"Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA> wrote:
> You don't understand what I'm saying - let me repeat it: the device
> serves no useful function - this has two parts:
> 1) it has no effect on game mechanics (your "rollplaying")
> 2) it has no benefit in the universe ("roleplaying" - why would a
runner
> spend good nuyen on something that doesn't actually give him an edge?)
>
> In my opinion, even the style doesn't fit the universe. I just can't
> imagine Hatchetman having this gun on a string slapping back and forth
> between his hands...
>
> >Style and Roleplaying.. and being the underdog, doesn't mean your
> >going to get dead..it just means you have to be smarter, than the
> >other chiphead.
>
> Which usually means setting traps or sniping, not hoping to outdraw
> the wired speed sam at twenty paces.
>
> James Ojaste
>

Well I am not going to get into an argument about it.. I think you
might want to sitdown and read 'ShadowBoxer' and see how the VPR-2 is
utilized effectivly. Then maybe you can have a better understanding of
just how it works..and what makes it effective, in the SR World.

Mr. Smith

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Message no. 13
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Curious..
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 13:03:45 -0600
Ojaste,James [NCR] wrote:
/
/ ...why would a runner
/ spend good nuyen on something that doesn't actually give him an edge?)

Because he's human? Why do all runners have to be 100% efficient?

Recently, don't know why, I was thinking that all of my old AD&D
characters had the same basic equipment list: high hard boots, cloak,
50' of silk rope, backpack, a couple of large bags, flint and steel, a
winter blanket, a small tent, etc. I was basically making clones.

I advocate making a character that doesn't fit neatly within the
lines. And it's not what you use, but how you use it.

If this guys character wants a funky toy that has no real value, so
what? That's between him and his character.

On the other hand if your *character* has an issue, than that's another
story that should be resolved through some active roleplaying :)

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 14
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: Curious..
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 15:20:30 -0400
David Buehrer wrote:
>/ ...why would a runner
>/ spend good nuyen on something that doesn't actually give him an edge?)
>
>Because he's human? Why do all runners have to be 100% efficient?

First off, who'd develop the thing in the first place? They'd have to
be confident of their ability to sell the product - I'm guessing this
would be one of those "as seen on TV" products. People don't have to
be 100% efficient, but since cyber is almost certainly required in this
case (how else would it know where your hands were? How would it know
when to give you the gun?), that detracts from its appeal when the
runner could spend it on more useful/interesting cyber.

>Recently, don't know why, I was thinking that all of my old AD&D
>characters had the same basic equipment list: high hard boots, cloak,
>50' of silk rope, backpack, a couple of large bags, flint and steel, a
>winter blanket, a small tent, etc. I was basically making clones.

So basically, you chose to take items that every traveller in their
right mind would consider necessities and blaming yourself for it?
Sorry, I don't get it.

>I advocate making a character that doesn't fit neatly within the
>lines. And it's not what you use, but how you use it.

Hah! I tend to build characters straddling the line (if they're totally
outside the lines, they run into far too many conflicts and don't last
more than a couple of sessions). I've only built a couple of "normal"
characters, and I played one of those for a one-off.

>If this guys character wants a funky toy that has no real value, so
>what? That's between him and his character.

Well... There have to be limits. If a character wants a pack of
self-lighting cigarettes (not mentionned in SR anywhere, AFAIK), no
problem. If they want a randomly-moving strap-on tail, throw some
money at it and you can have it. If a player asked me for an alien zap
gun to knock people out with, I'd smile, nod and write down "Taser" on
my copy of their character sheet.


This Viper-thing doesn't only have no real value - it's high-tech,
complicated to build, uncommon (all three of which make it expensive)
and provides no benefit - all of which make it unlikely to have been
invented in the first place, produced in the second and purchased in
the third.

Another big reason this thing offends me is that it would just look
silly and most runners go out of their way to appear big, tough and
dangerous.

James Ojaste
Message no. 15
From: Grahamdrew <mnemonic25@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Curious..
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 16:08:00 -0400
> Huh? Drawing your pistol as a free action doesn't require *any* cyber.
> It just requires a roll of your reaction dice looking for a 6. Even
> "pure" sams will have a good chance of that.

Base TN for quick draw is 4 IIRC, not 6. Almost anyone can make that.
Awakenings mentioned a "Quick Draw" power for phyads did same as this,
but you basicly didn't have to roll for it. Said is was unbalencing and
might not be used by some GMs. How can the thing be unbalancing if any
mundane pretty much can do it anyway? (in the basic rules no less)
Message no. 16
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Curious..
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 16:23:49 -0400
> First off, who'd develop the thing in the first place? They'd have to
> be confident of their ability to sell the product - I'm guessing this
> would be one of those "as seen on TV" products. People don't have to
> be 100% efficient, but since cyber is almost certainly required in
> this
> case (how else would it know where your hands were? How would it know
> when to give you the gun?), that detracts from its appeal when the
> runner could spend it on more useful/interesting cyber.
>
Dismissing this entire silly argument about a silly
piece of cyberware....

Do you think there would be "As seen on TV" type
cyberware? Could you order something from an infomercial?

I suppose you could get the parts and the docs and take
it to a surgeon to have it installed. This is scary stuff...
Message no. 17
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Curious..
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 16:56:47 EDT
In a message dated 8/6/98 9:57:40 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
enwill@*****.COM writes:

> ---Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM> wrote:
>
> > I used the articulated limb as the basis for it ... it does not do
> it entirely
> > justice, but it serves the purpose as the base of the tech for the
> VIPER.
> >
> > And as for having a gun which fires on it's own ... consider this
> ... set the
> > smartlink of the gun to fire as soon as someone not in the smartlink
> is in the
> > crosshairs ... -OR- ... even worse ... something which counteracts
> most
> > invisibility spells and tech ... set any rangefinder for a certain
> distance,
> > if something crosses through the rangefinder within the range it is
> set, the
> > gun automatically fires.
>
> *Nods* I agree, it does serve as a good basis for the Tech, kinda
> like what they guy had on Alien:Resurrection. That would be a good
> example of what you have posted on the web. Of course, what the guy
> had in the book was a Viper-2 System, soo hehe, mods would have been
> made over the previous Viper model (ie: Yours) Mmm. Well as for the
> autofire..he only did it a few times..and it was only when he wanted
> to, cause he did pull them and not fire instantly, just flashing it
> around.

What the one guy had in Alien : Resurrection was something that anyone can
come up with, and probably is used a lot also by runners ... we just don't
hear about any of this from the Lords-on-High.

> > You could perhaps use the "wild fire" rules ... the name is not
> right, but the
> > rule is ... you roll the shooter's reaction to determine the success
> test of
> > the gun being shot.
>
> Thats not a bad idea, most likely that is what happened he did pull
> the trigger, but it was just written that it went off automaticly,
> just for the sake of the effect of quickness.

Ahh .. but things get much worse farther down ... *hehe*

> > Hmmm ... perhaps ...
> >
> > Hrey .. think of this ... a sentry gun system only weighs about 4
> kgs, put it
> > into a backpack ... then combine that with the VIPER system ... and
> talk about
> > having an extra gun firing along with you, freeing up your hands for
> other
> > things ... and combine it with BTAC FDDM and IVIS this thing could
> become
> > scary ...
> >
> > And yes, we have done this already, and that was 3 to 4 years ago ...
> >
>
> *Laughs then Runs!* Ohh.. that could be very disgusting
> indeed.. kinda like what Burnout had..that MiniGun on a 3rd arm on his
> back..eww. hehe.. actually it would be kinda funny you could just take
> one of those manportable Grenade Launchers and modify it to take a
> Belt Feed..then hook it up the same way. Now that would be nasty.. A
> fully automatic GL firing, like that..talk about Infantry Support.

Let's see ... using just a standard Sentry Gun System, the system would have
an Intelligence of 7, and a Firearms Skill of 6 ... now, then, adding in the
BTAC FDDM and IVIS when used in conjunction with groups, the Intelligence and
Skill increase by one per individual / drone directly involved in the same
firefight ...

Then again, there was a cyberzombie once that had two of these things mounted
on either shoulder and both controlled an articulated arm which had a laser
gun (Mp-Laser III type) mounted on the arms. Yes, this was in the days when
we were definitely munchkinish and made the npcs on par to keep the pcs
interested and not just blow everthing away for fun ... and that was some 4 to
5 years ago (we still are nowadays ... we are just more aware of it and try to
keep it in check now ... makes for a better game in the end) ...

-Herc
------- The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 18
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Curious..
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 17:02:12 EDT
In a message dated 8/6/98 10:41:20 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA writes:

> >> As opposed to drawing the pistol as a free action and firing it as a
> >> simple action (assuming you make your reaction test)? First off, from
> >> the quote it sounds like a really silly piece of cyberware (why bother
> >> moving the gun from hand to hand?), and it doesn't really do anything
> >> gamewise...
> >
> > Well I suppose different hardware for different folks. If your PC
> >is one of those ppl that don't believe in polluting their bodies with
> >cyberjunk, that piece would be very valuable. That would kind of
>
> Huh? Drawing your pistol as a free action doesn't require *any* cyber.
> It just requires a roll of your reaction dice looking for a 6. Even
> "pure" sams will have a good chance of that.

Ah ... but the VIPER negates that possibly as the action has now been reduced
to nothing more than a thought and just having your havd in place ... an
automatic free action ...

> >important if your a Sammy like that..to beable to have your gun inhand
> >and ready before the other guy.. especially in a surprise maneauver
> >like that. Hell who is going to expect you to hold out your empty
>
> If you want to get into surprise tests, you'll need cyber to stay alive.
> Reaction vs reaction when the other guy is cybered is a good way to
> die...

Not really ... just make sure you have a decent range on the cybered chummer
and pop his head off with a headshot from a sniper rifle or other rifle type
...

> >hand, and have your gun go to it, instead of having to draw it
> >normally. As for switching hands..it may not do much for game

True, but it means it is not another simple action spent to do so ... it also
falls into the realm of an automatic/freebie free action ...

> It's still a surprise test - reaction vs. reaction.
>
> >mechanics, but it was showing the versatility of the unit, showing
> >that it could actually switch from hand to hand with, but a thought..
> >that gives me the impression of a highly advanced weapon system.
>
> But doing something like that would decrease accuracy, serves no useful
> function (game mechanics or otherwise), and requires more power. Why
> bother?

Why bother ... to have an edge over your opponent ... since this thing needs
only a free action to perform the action of getting the gun into your hand it
makes things easier on the character ... and what if the Reaction(6) test
fails ... then your pc is forced to use a Simple Action to pull out the gun
... which means either one less shot / BF against your opponent ... and heaven
forbid you should botch (Rule of Ones) the reaction test, then you have no
weapon against an opponent who has one already ...

-Herc
------- The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 19
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Curious..
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 17:07:03 EDT
In a message dated 8/6/98 10:58:04 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA writes:

> >> But doing something like that would decrease accuracy, serves no
> >useful
> >> function (game mechanics or otherwise), and requires more power. Why
> >> bother?
> >
> > I'm sorry.. I suppose there is just two different ways to look at
> >it.. style and substance.. Roleplaying and Rollplaying. Me.. I prefer
>
> You don't understand what I'm saying - let me repeat it: the device
> serves no useful function - this has two parts:
> 1) it has no effect on game mechanics (your "rollplaying")

Ah .. but it frees up your hands to possibly perform some other free action in
the meantime ... like a Missile Parry for a PAD while the gun is being raised
into position ...

> 2) it has no benefit in the universe ("roleplaying" - why would a runner
> spend good nuyen on something that doesn't actually give him an edge?)

Ahh ... but it looks cool ... and having some toys means you have resources
... and having resources means that you have been around a while ... and that
you mean serious business and just did not walk in off of the streets with a
gun in your pocket ("Not that gun, your other gun you idiot!"). All in all it
is something more experienced characters may want to have so as to free their
hands up to perform something else ...

> In my opinion, even the style doesn't fit the universe. I just can't
> imagine Hatchetman having this gun on a string slapping back and forth
> between his hands...

Nope, I can't either ... but for bodyguards it does (which is what the guy in
the book who had the VPR was), as just imagine the surprised look on an
assassins face when the bodyguard with no gun has a gun all of a sudden in
their hands and did not even have to flinch an inch to get it with their
hands.

> >Style and Roleplaying.. and being the underdog, doesn't mean your
> >going to get dead..it just means you have to be smarter, than the
> >other chiphead.
>
> Which usually means setting traps or sniping, not hoping to outdraw
> the wired speed sam at twenty paces.

True ... but sometimes we don't have that choice ...

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 20
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Curious..
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 15:09:24 -0600
Ojaste,James [NCR] wrote:
/
/ David Buehrer wrote:
/ >/ ...why would a runner
/ >/ spend good nuyen on something that doesn't actually give him an edge?)
/ >
/ >Because he's human? Why do all runners have to be 100% efficient?
/
/ First off, who'd develop the thing in the first place? They'd have to
/ be confident of their ability to sell the product - I'm guessing this
/ would be one of those "as seen on TV" products.

QVC2060

:)

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 21
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Curious..
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 17:04:40 -0400
First, it needs to be said (and I don't think it yet has) that
"ShadowBoxer" is a novel and is therefor not automatically considered
canon. Something like the Viper-2 has no basis in "real" Shadowrun and can
easily be considered nothing more than a product of artistic license.

At 03:20 PM 8/6/98 -0400, you wrote:

>First off, who'd develop the thing in the first place? They'd have to
>be confident of their ability to sell the product - I'm guessing this
>would be one of those "as seen on TV" products.

Actually, no, this is a rare piece of gunslinging gear. Nearly unique
actually. So it almost certainly wouldn't be mass produced, but would be
the product of prototyping and R&D.

>People don't have to
>be 100% efficient, but since cyber is almost certainly required in this
>case (how else would it know where your hands were? How would it know
>when to give you the gun?), that detracts from its appeal when the
>runner could spend it on more useful/interesting cyber.

As I recall, the primary purpose of the Viper-2 was to act as a quickdraw
aid. Essentially, the gun was launched, ready to fire, into your hands.
Perhaps, in game effects, it would do nothing more than grant automatic
quickdraw or even remove the need for the person to "draw" the gun since it
does it for him.

But really, there are so many oddities to the Viper-2 I seriously don't
recommend trying to implement it in game. It would seem to be above the
current state of tech since it seems to be partially a drone, partially
cyberware, partially a gun launcher, and all artistic license.

>>Recently, don't know why, I was thinking that all of my old AD&D
>>characters had the same basic equipment list: high hard boots, cloak,
>>50' of silk rope, backpack, a couple of large bags, flint and steel, a
>>winter blanket, a small tent, etc. I was basically making clones.
>
>So basically, you chose to take items that every traveller in their
>right mind would consider necessities and blaming yourself for it?
>Sorry, I don't get it.

Because *every* PC had that stuff. Possibly a poor example, but we all
know that in every game, there are just certain pieces of gear that are
inherently better than all the rest and end up in the hands of *every* PC
you run. It can be hard to break certain habits; nearly every cybereye I
put in has the common thermo/low-light/flare comp package. It's just so
effective that it's extremely rare I go with anything else.

>Well... There have to be limits. If a character wants a pack of
>self-lighting cigarettes (not mentionned in SR anywhere, AFAIK), no
>problem. If they want a randomly-moving strap-on tail, throw some
>money at it and you can have it. If a player asked me for an alien zap
>gun to knock people out with, I'd smile, nod and write down "Taser" on
>my copy of their character sheet.

Very true. I wouldn't allow the tail myself, but little toys like
self-lighting cigarettes and allowing magicians to cast "cantrips" to light
their cigars has no real game affect and allows an extra dimension to be
explored.

>This Viper-thing doesn't only have no real value - it's high-tech,
>complicated to build, uncommon (all three of which make it expensive)
>and provides no benefit - all of which make it unlikely to have been
>invented in the first place, produced in the second and purchased in
>the third.

Agreed. I fall upon the sword of artistic license on this matter, since
it's really the only explanation I can really find.

IF you want something like it in your game, I'm afraid you'll just have to
homebrew it, but keep in mind it is supposed to be very rare and very
expensive.

>Another big reason this thing offends me is that it would just look
>silly and most runners go out of their way to appear big, tough and
>dangerous.

According to the novel, it was not only supposed to be pretty stealthy and
unnoticable until activated, it was supposed to scare the hell out of folks
since it indicated the user was almost certainly a major pro (which reminds
me, I think it took some amount of skill to use the Viper-2 properly; would
have to factor that into the equation also).

While much of Shadowboxer was an excellent read, overall it was quite
dissappointing and it was obvious the author, while talented, didn't have
much more than a passing knowledge of Shadowrun the game, unlike someone
like Hume, Dowd or Kenson. And while he certainly thought the Viper-2 was
a cool concept, he clearly wasn't aware that it really wasn't appropriate
for Shadowrun.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 22
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Curious..
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 17:20:06 EDT
In a message dated 8/6/98 2:27:47 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA writes:

> >/ ...why would a runner
> >/ spend good nuyen on something that doesn't actually give him an edge?)
> >
> >Because he's human? Why do all runners have to be 100% efficient?
>
> First off, who'd develop the thing in the first place? They'd have to
> be confident of their ability to sell the product - I'm guessing this
> would be one of those "as seen on TV" products. People don't have to
> be 100% efficient, but since cyber is almost certainly required in this
> case (how else would it know where your hands were? How would it know
> when to give you the gun?), that detracts from its appeal when the
> runner could spend it on more useful/interesting cyber.

People involved in Executive Security ... people who want their security to
look intimidating ... and as for knowing when to give you the gun .. the free
action though thing ... which in turn triggers the pistol being brought up as
a free action ... which means the drawing of a gun with a VIPER is a 2 free
action movement ...

> >Recently, don't know why, I was thinking that all of my old AD&D
> >characters had the same basic equipment list: high hard boots, cloak,
> >50' of silk rope, backpack, a couple of large bags, flint and steel, a
> >winter blanket, a small tent, etc. I was basically making clones.
>
> So basically, you chose to take items that every traveller in their
> right mind would consider necessities and blaming yourself for it?
> Sorry, I don't get it.

I agree, I don't get it either ...

> >I advocate making a character that doesn't fit neatly within the
> >lines. And it's not what you use, but how you use it.
>
> Hah! I tend to build characters straddling the line (if they're totally
> outside the lines, they run into far too many conflicts and don't last
> more than a couple of sessions). I've only built a couple of "normal"
> characters, and I played one of those for a one-off.

Hmmm ... sounds like you make interesting pcs James .. would enjoy having you
here for a game or two or more ...

> >If this guys character wants a funky toy that has no real value, so
> >what? That's between him and his character.
>
> Well... There have to be limits. If a character wants a pack of
> self-lighting cigarettes (not mentionned in SR anywhere, AFAIK), no
> problem. If they want a randomly-moving strap-on tail, throw some
> money at it and you can have it. If a player asked me for an alien zap
> gun to knock people out with, I'd smile, nod and write down "Taser" on
> my copy of their character sheet.

Why do there have to be limits ... but it has to be viewed with an eye on
"believability."

> This Viper-thing doesn't only have no real value - it's high-tech,
> complicated to build, uncommon (all three of which make it expensive)
> and provides no benefit - all of which make it unlikely to have been
> invented in the first place, produced in the second and purchased in
> the third.

Nope, not very complicated ... an articulated limb, with a smartlink adaption
system for receiving the command of when to draw and not draw the gun ... as
for being invented or not ... it has already happened in one of the books, so
life goes on ... oh, and the VIPER is another use for an articulated limb ..
did anyone catch that from the book ... I doubt it as the VIPER was not a
piece of truly implanted cyberware ...

> Another big reason this thing offends me is that it would just look
> silly and most runners go out of their way to appear big, tough and
> dangerous.

A favor ... what happens if one of your pcs does not have this and needs to
open a door with a lockpick ... you would either set the gun somewhere where
you would still need to grab and pick it up again .. now then, having the
VIPER means not having to worry about that at all ... you let the gun sit at
the ready and once done picking the lock the gun is back in your hand much
faster than when you could have done it normally so (a split-second or so
faster in game mechanics) ...

It all depends on how you look at something James ... think this over a little
bit more, perhaps consider this ... a yoyo ... when not being played with, it
sits around doing nothing and to pick it up means actually having to do it
yourself ... now then ... you have the "ring" for the yoyo around your finger
and the yoyo is dangling on the floor ... to get the yoyo up to your hand
requires only a flick of the wrist (almost) and then the yoyo is in your hand
..

-Herc
------- The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 23
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Curious..
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 17:28:02 EDT
In a message dated 8/6/98 3:26:01 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
bryan.covington@****.COM writes:

> > case (how else would it know where your hands were? How would it know
> > when to give you the gun?), that detracts from its appeal when the
> > runner could spend it on more useful/interesting cyber.
> >
> Dismissing this entire silly argument about a silly
> piece of cyberware....

I don't know how to take that remark ...

> Do you think there would be "As seen on TV" type
> cyberware? Could you order something from an infomercial?

Sure, once the general public gets downwind of the VIPER ... don't you think
poeple would like to have this thing as a NERPS thing ... and imagine all of
the other variation ... it could hold your drink when you want to do other
things at a party (hey, look at my really big "gun") ... to being something
someone would have just to have and look trendyish (which is what NERPS is)
...

> I suppose you could get the parts and the docs and take
> it to a surgeon to have it installed. This is scary stuff...

Or you could just as easily take it to the local tech store and have it fixed
just as easily .. albeit for a legal version only ... oh, and the legal
version bought in stores would not be as fast as the one that the bodyguards
have or any runner would have for that matter ...

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 24
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Curious..
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 17:31:10 EDT
In a message dated 8/6/98 3:41:08 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
mnemonic25@*********.COM writes:

> > Huh? Drawing your pistol as a free action doesn't require *any* cyber.
> > It just requires a roll of your reaction dice looking for a 6. Even
> > "pure" sams will have a good chance of that.
>
> Base TN for quick draw is 4 IIRC, not 6. Almost anyone can make that.
> Awakenings mentioned a "Quick Draw" power for phyads did same as this,
> but you basicly didn't have to roll for it. Said is was unbalencing and
> might not be used by some GMs. How can the thing be unbalancing if any
> mundane pretty much can do it anyway? (in the basic rules no less)

Ah, but that requires a die roll .. the VIPER does not need one ... and ever
hear of the remote chance of roll of all ones ?

The question is this ... how important is it for something to be there when
you really need it the most? The VIPER is something most bodyguards would say
definitely takes away some uncertainty about dropping their gun while pulling
it out for certain.

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 25
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Curious..
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:02:31 +1000
> > 2) it has no benefit in the universe ("roleplaying" - why would a
runner
> > spend good nuyen on something that doesn't actually give him an edge?)
>
> Ahh ... but it looks cool ... and having some toys means you have resources

OK, IM(H)O, it doesn't look cool, it looks utterly poxy. Shadowrun is
really a game of guns and cyber (based on the sum total of material that
has been presented in sourcebooks), not funky little weird-ass gadgets.
While I appreciate that other people may choose to play their games with
a different flavour, you've got to realise that it's divergent in many
ways from the Shadowrun world 'feel'.

> ... and having resources means that you have been around a while ... and that
> you mean serious business and just did not walk in off of the streets with a

Alternatively, it means you have money and don't know what to spend it
on to get best value for money. Having money doesn't necessarily mean
you know what you're doing - having money and *holding on to it* does..
:)

> Nope, I can't either ... but for bodyguards it does (which is what the guy in
> the book who had the VPR was), as just imagine the surprised look on an
> assassins face when the bodyguard with no gun has a gun all of a sudden in
> their hands and did not even have to flinch an inch to get it with their
> hands.

Alternatively, the bodyguard could get cyber (rather common for
bodyguards, I'd imagine - sammies don't have the exclusive monopoly on
being cybered out the wazoo, and how many sammy characters are there out
in SR-land who are ex-bodyguards?) and then they could get the gun into
the assassin's face just as fast, but have a useful and multipurpose bit
of cyber (speed enhancements are always useful) instead of a silly box
attached to their belt.

Yes, I *know* there are going to be situations where the guy doesn't
want to get cyber - and then the employer is probably going to pick a
bodyguard whose ethics are more flexible and who can thus provide better
protection.


Lady Jestyr

- It's not pretty being easy -
| Elle Holmes | jestyr@**********.com | http://jestyr.home.ml.org |
| Shadowrun Webring Ringmaster | GeoCities Leader | RPGA Reviewer |
Message no. 26
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Curious..
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:12:00 +1000
> First, it needs to be said (and I don't think it yet has) that
> "ShadowBoxer" is a novel and is therefor not automatically considered
> canon. Something like the Viper-2 has no basis in "real" Shadowrun and can
> easily be considered nothing more than a product of artistic license.

Who actually wrote Shadowboxer? It's not one of the books I own. (I've
only got books 1-11, which I managed to pick up for $1 AUS each [about
60c. US] from a guy who didn't want them!)

> Because *every* PC had that stuff. Possibly a poor example, but we all
> know that in every game, there are just certain pieces of gear that are
> inherently better than all the rest and end up in the hands of *every* PC
> you run. It can be hard to break certain habits; nearly every cybereye I
> put in has the common thermo/low-light/flare comp package. It's just so
> effective that it's extremely rare I go with anything else.

Enhanced Articulation... every runner's friend.

> According to the novel, it was not only supposed to be pretty stealthy and
> unnoticable until activated, it was supposed to scare the hell out of folks
> since it indicated the user was almost certainly a major pro (which reminds
> me, I think it took some amount of skill to use the Viper-2 properly; would
> have to factor that into the equation also).

I must admit that if I were faced with a guy with one of these I
wouldn't consider the guy a 'major pro', I'd think he was silly for
spending his money on that instead of (say) some cyber that would help
with quickdrawing but also be useful in other situations.

Lady Jestyr

- It's not pretty being easy -
| Elle Holmes | jestyr@**********.com | http://jestyr.home.ml.org |
| Shadowrun Webring Ringmaster | GeoCities Leader | RPGA Reviewer |
Message no. 27
From: Matt Penn <steelclaw@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Curious..
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 22:57:51 -0400
>On Thu, 6 Aug 1998 17:04:40 -0400 Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM> writes:
>First, it needs to be said (and I don't think it yet has) that
>"ShadowBoxer" is a novel and is therefor not automatically considered
>canon. Something like the Viper-2 has no basis in "real" Shadowrun and
can
>easily be considered nothing more than a product of artistic license.

I was under the impression that the books' events happened, especially
after reading 'Never Trust an Elf' and the Tir Tairngire book, but if
that it was really freaky then you could sort of disregard its
exsistence. I say this only because I hope the Dragon Heart trilogy
happened, and we don't have to worry much about gearing up for the
Horrors. Gah.

>But really, there are so many oddities to the Viper-2 I seriously don't
>recommend trying to implement it in game. It would seem to be above the
>current state of tech since it seems to be partially a drone, partially
>cyberware, partially a gun launcher, and all artistic license.

I agree with parts of this, yet I can understand why someone would want
it, like my player tonight who failed his quickdraw roll. Stood there
for some moments trying to jerk his Browning out of its holster while
Humanis members laughed. Didn't the fellow in the book, Delphia I think,
also formerly hold some high-up bodyguard position in Japan? I'd think
if anyone could have such a piece of SOTA tech, it'd be them.

>Because *every* PC had that stuff. Possibly a poor example, but we all
>know that in every game, there are just certain pieces of gear that are
>inherently better than all the rest and end up in the hands of *every*
PC
>you run. It can be hard to break certain habits; nearly every cybereye
I
>put in has the common thermo/low-light/flare comp package. It's just so
>effective that it's extremely rare I go with anything else.

There's nothing wrong with common sense items, but it always help
defining a character if you thrown in personal touches. My troll street
sam likes to carry around comic books in a satchel, in case he ever gets
bored. Do they have much use besides kindling? Nope, but it helps with
the character.

>IF you want something like it in your game, I'm afraid you'll just have
to
>homebrew it, but keep in mind it is supposed to be very rare and very
>expensive.

In my view, it seems to be something original to throw at the characters
now and then, but to make it common makes it worthless, especially when
players find out it's not that great. I'd make it prone to malfunction,
which would launch the gun, all right, but go clear pass their hand. How
much damage does a flying gun do? <g>

>While much of Shadowboxer was an excellent read, overall it was quite
>dissappointing and it was obvious the author, while talented, didn't
have
>much more than a passing knowledge of Shadowrun the game, unlike someone
>like Hume, Dowd or Kenson. And while he certainly thought the Viper-2
was
>a cool concept, he clearly wasn't aware that it really wasn't
appropriate
>for Shadowrun.

Hmph. Maybe I don't know enough about Shadowrun then, 'cause I liked it
alot and it jived alright with my view of SR. There were some bits that
were out there, I'll admit, but I really liked the characterizations,
especially Thumbs. I do hafta admit that my favorite novels have been
Dowd's books, though. It's nice to hear trolls and orks use something
besides, "You ain't gotta worry 'bout dat, we's'll take o' it."

-Matt, Homo Sapiens Robusts
"Yeah, I are well-read real good."

_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 28
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Curious..
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 00:28:31 -0400
At 09:12 AM 8/7/98 +1000, you wrote:

>Who actually wrote Shadowboxer? It's not one of the books I own. (I've
>only got books 1-11, which I managed to pick up for $1 AUS each [about
>60c. US] from a guy who didn't want them!)

Came out within the last year I believe. Some guy who's written
prolifically in sci-fi/fantasy. Can't recall though.

>> According to the novel, it was not only supposed to be pretty stealthy and
>> unnoticable until activated, it was supposed to scare the hell out of folks
>> since it indicated the user was almost certainly a major pro (which reminds
>> me, I think it took some amount of skill to use the Viper-2 properly; would
>> have to factor that into the equation also).
>
>I must admit that if I were faced with a guy with one of these I
>wouldn't consider the guy a 'major pro', I'd think he was silly for
>spending his money on that instead of (say) some cyber that would help
>with quickdrawing but also be useful in other situations.

Well, considering our knowledge of SR, that would probably be so. But in
the author's particular version of SR, well, it was an imposing piece of gear.

I hated the ending of the book and one of the main character's gets offed
pretty early on, but some of the stuff is pretty good. I'd actually like
the author to do some hardcore SR reading and come back and do another
book, because I liked much of what he did. Aside from the Viper-2 anyway.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 29
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Curious..
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 00:07:31 -0600
At 22:57 8/6/98 -0400, you wrote:

>>canon. Something like the Viper-2 has no basis in "real" Shadowrun and
>can
>>easily be considered nothing more than a product of artistic license.
>
>I was under the impression that the books' events happened, especially
>after reading 'Never Trust an Elf' and the Tir Tairngire book, but if
>that it was really freaky then you could sort of disregard its
>exsistence. I say this only because I hope the Dragon Heart trilogy
>happened, and we don't have to worry much about gearing up for the
>Horrors. Gah.

The events in each of the novels are canon with the Shadowrun storyline,
but not necessarily with the rules. The novel authors are allowed to break
the rules a bit to make a good story.

However, until the piece of gear in question appears in a sourcebook, it's
in the realm of house rules only.

.. Which brings up a point I bring up every couple of months: Whatever you
think is Shadowrun is Shadowrun, so if it fits in your Shadowrun, use it :)

-Adam J

-
< http://www.interware.it/users/adamj / ICQ# 2350330 / fro@***.ab.ca >
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Message no. 30
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: Curious..
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 10:14:23 -0400
Mike Bobroff wrote:
>> >I advocate making a character that doesn't fit neatly within the
>> >lines. And it's not what you use, but how you use it.
>>
>> Hah! I tend to build characters straddling the line (if they're totally
>> outside the lines, they run into far too many conflicts and don't last
>> more than a couple of sessions). I've only built a couple of "normal"
>> characters, and I played one of those for a one-off.
>
>Hmmm ... sounds like you make interesting pcs James .. would enjoy having you
>here for a game or two or more ...

I tend to like epic tales where some little nobody ends up having an
impact on the world - most shadowrunners are too competent to qualify
as a "nobody"... Besides, playing an interesting character is more
fun than just killing things.

>> >If this guys character wants a funky toy that has no real value, so
>> >what? That's between him and his character.
>>
>> Well... There have to be limits. If a character wants a pack of
[snip]
>Why do there have to be limits ... but it has to be viewed with an eye on
>"believability."

Well, we've been presented with a universe. I choose to play within
that universe, therefore I should do all I can to ensure that the
universe is consistent. If the viper existed for real, there are wide
ranging impacts that the tech would have - why have employees at the
Stuffer Shack when you can just use a few articulated arms? Basically
when I think of the viper, I think of Paranoia (it would fit in
*beautifully* in Paranoia!). The "style" of tech is much more
appropriate in Alpha Complex than Seattle.

>> This Viper-thing doesn't only have no real value - it's high-tech,
>> complicated to build, uncommon (all three of which make it expensive)
>> and provides no benefit - all of which make it unlikely to have been
>> invented in the first place, produced in the second and purchased in
>> the third.
>
>Nope, not very complicated ... an articulated limb, with a smartlink adaption
>system for receiving the command of when to draw and not draw the gun ... as
>for being invented or not ... it has already happened in one of the books, so
>life goes on ... oh, and the VIPER is another use for an articulated limb ..
>did anyone catch that from the book ... I doubt it as the VIPER was not a
>piece of truly implanted cyberware ...

Well, with the flexibility it provides etc, I'd expect articulated arms
to pop up all over the place if they existed... It's a very difficult
tech to actually build (in terms of delivered power etc).

>> Another big reason this thing offends me is that it would just look
>> silly and most runners go out of their way to appear big, tough and
>> dangerous.
>
>A favor ... what happens if one of your pcs does not have this and needs to
>open a door with a lockpick ... you would either set the gun somewhere where
>you would still need to grab and pick it up again .. now then, having the
>VIPER means not having to worry about that at all ... you let the gun sit at
>the ready and once done picking the lock the gun is back in your hand much
>faster than when you could have done it normally so (a split-second or so
>faster in game mechanics) ...

That's what a holster is for. When you put the gun down, you put it in
your holster.

>It all depends on how you look at something James ... think this over a
>little
>bit more, perhaps consider this ... a yoyo ... when not being played with, it
>sits around doing nothing and to pick it up means actually having to do it
>yourself ... now then ... you have the "ring" for the yoyo around your
finger
>and the yoyo is dangling on the floor ... to get the yoyo up to your hand
>requires only a flick of the wrist (almost) and then the yoyo is in your hand

Well, yeah, but then the string is all dangly and not nicely wrapped
up - the yoyo is in no condition to actually *use*. Picking it up and
wrapping by hand is pointless - it's much faster to just place your
foot on top of the yoyo and pull up. The yoyo will roll up your foot
and coil neatly. I like to do a couple of throws after that to adjust
the string tension, but that's a matter of taste. :-)

James Ojaste
Message no. 31
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Curious..
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 11:48:11 EDT
In a message dated 8/7/98 9:15:31 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA writes:

> Mike Bobroff wrote:
> >> >I advocate making a character that doesn't fit neatly within the
> >> >lines. And it's not what you use, but how you use it.
> >>
> >> Hah! I tend to build characters straddling the line (if they're
totally
> >> outside the lines, they run into far too many conflicts and don't last
> >> more than a couple of sessions). I've only built a couple of
"normal"
> >> characters, and I played one of those for a one-off.
> >
> >Hmmm ... sounds like you make interesting pcs James .. would enjoy having
> you
> >here for a game or two or more ...
>
> I tend to like epic tales where some little nobody ends up having an
> impact on the world - most shadowrunners are too competent to qualify
> as a "nobody"... Besides, playing an interesting character is more
> fun than just killing things.

James, you would fit in nicely up here then ... seeing as it to K (actually
me) some 10 to 12 years to end a story line which started in an AD&D crossover
game with SR ...

-Herc
------- The Best Mechanic you can ever have.

P.S. Where do you live ?!? Just so I know ...
Message no. 32
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Curious..
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 13:03:43 -0400
At 10:57 PM 8/6/98 -0400, you wrote:

>I was under the impression that the books' events happened, especially
>after reading 'Never Trust an Elf' and the Tir Tairngire book, but if
>that it was really freaky then you could sort of disregard its
>exsistence. I say this only because I hope the Dragon Heart trilogy
>happened, and we don't have to worry much about gearing up for the
>Horrors. Gah.

The *events* described in novels (at least the big ones) can be considered
to be canon. FASA tends to use novels to develop storylines and events in
the game, and in the case of "Burning Bright" they dropped the entire Bug
City bomb (pun intended) not with a sourcebook, but with a novel.

The way things work in novels, such as spells or decking, are not to be
considered truely illustrative of how the game works.

Items from novels, such as the Viper-2, are not considered "real" until
they appear in a sourcebook with stats. Unless of course you brew up your
own house rule version, but it's really only valid then in your game (but
that's all that matters, right?).

>Humanis members laughed. Didn't the fellow in the book, Delphia I think,
>also formerly hold some high-up bodyguard position in Japan? I'd think
>if anyone could have such a piece of SOTA tech, it'd be them.

I believe so.

>In my view, it seems to be something original to throw at the characters
>now and then, but to make it common makes it worthless, especially when
>players find out it's not that great. I'd make it prone to malfunction,
>which would launch the gun, all right, but go clear pass their hand. How
>much damage does a flying gun do? <g>

It could have some applications, and I'd say you'd have to have some solid
training with the device to prevent guns flying about willy-nilly.

>Hmph. Maybe I don't know enough about Shadowrun then, 'cause I liked it
>alot and it jived alright with my view of SR. There were some bits that
>were out there, I'll admit, but I really liked the characterizations,
>especially Thumbs.

Oh, don't get me wrong, some of it was great. I think it could be argued
that it was more accurate in it's descriptions of the "streets" and the
shadows than any other SR book. And the author is actually pretty good.
But I hated the ending and there were some other things that just bugged
me, like the Viper-2, which prevents me from giving a big thumbs up to the
book.

>I do hafta admit that my favorite novels have been
>Dowd's books, though. It's nice to hear trolls and orks use something
>besides, "You ain't gotta worry 'bout dat, we's'll take o' it."

Heh. You'd like one of the PCs in the game I GM (playing again tomorrow
and I haven't more than a *very* rough outline of what I want to do). An
employee of All Star Games actually, a big fellow, almost orkish in
dimesions. Plays a troll detective. That's right, a low cyber troll that
is smarter than half the rest of the group. Imagine Bogart from "the
Maltese Falcon" or something, only nine feet tall with horns and warts.

He's actually, strangely enough, the sort of leader for the group also.
Who'd have ever thought that a troll would be the brains and the leadership
of a shadowrunning team? And yet it works out great. Seriously, I am very
blessed with the players and PCs that I have in my game right now.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 33
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Curious..
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 09:52:23 EDT
In a message dated 8/7/98 11:02:48 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA writes:

> >James, you would fit in nicely up here then ... seeing as it to K (actually
> >me) some 10 to 12 years to end a story line which started in an AD&D
> >crossover
> >game with SR ...
>
> AD&D crossover with SR? Do I want to hear this? ;-)

At that point in time K was heavily into AD&D and after having been introduced
to SR, he began to convert his AD&D game into the SR world ... by bringing
some of the plotlines across, but not all of the AD&D pcs though ...

Besides, K and I figured out how to convert AD&D pcs into SR pcs anyway about
4 years ago ... have never ever needed to do the conversions ever since ...

> >P.S. Where do you live ?!? Just so I know ...
>
> Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. :-)

Just wondering,

Thanks

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 34
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Steve Collins)
Subject: Curious
Date: Tue Oct 16 12:50:01 2001
I just got done reading American Gods (which is an awesome book by the
way) by Neil Gaiman and that got me to wondering if anyone out there
has ever done any Sandman/Shadowrun crossovers?

It really fits pretty well the Gods would be free spirits of ungodly
high forces (pun definately intended :-) ), The endless probably would
as well but would be even more powerful. You could say that worship
from which the Gods draw their power is just the manifestation of
millions of people transfering small ammounts of Karma to them. The
other immortal beings would be the immortal Elves although they
wouldn't be restricted to just elves.

If I ever manage to get another Shadowrun game going I think it will
definately be a high magic campaign based around this idea, I can just
see the look on the runners face when they realize that piano player
who seems to know too much at the nightclub they hang out at is really
a retired Lucifer. <EGMG>


For those of you who don't have any clue what I am talking about go
find the 10 Sandman Graphic Novels and read them, they are one of the
greatest works of mythic fiction ever produced and well worth the
read.


Steve

Further Reading

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