Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	B. Blackbarin BillT@*********.com
Subject:	Cyberdecks and PC's
Date:	Sun, 25 Apr 1999 12:18:28 -0700

Message no. 1 In VR2 it clearly states that a personal computer, NOT a cyberdeck, needs
to be used for all programming tasks. Yet a cyberdeck is described in SR3
p206 as a "powerful microcomputer cranking out enough processing power to
implement the ASSIST interface."

Wouldn't this "powerful microcomputer" be able to handle the same tasks
as a personal computer? Why would you need both?

------------------
.sig on .vacation

From:	The Rev W Spaced Lee spaced@******.org
Subject:	Cyberdecks and PC's
Date:	Sun, 25 Apr 1999 15:37:09 -0700 (PDT)

Message no. 2 >>>>> B Blackbarin didst say unto the aether thusly:

# In VR2 it clearly states that a personal computer, NOT a cyberdeck, needs
# to be used for all programming tasks. Yet a cyberdeck is described in SR3
# p206 as a "powerful microcomputer cranking out enough processing power to
# implement the ASSIST interface."

# Wouldn't this "powerful microcomputer" be able to handle the same tasks
# as a personal computer? Why would you need both?

Actually, I would think the on-the-fly programming rules would
more of a damnation. As I see it, cyberdecks are the ASIST version of
somewhat beefy Xterminals. Most of its processing power is used up
generating the virtual reality of the Grid, and executing the
precompiled proggies it has in memory. I suppose on-the-fly
programming could be represented by a scripting language like Perl or
Python.
I guess the key is specialisation. In order to keep
prices/components from being utterly prohibitive, cyberdecks have
evolved to be totally focused on the ASIST experience, leaving little
in DeckOS for other tasks. Sort of like a router, or those thin
servers people like Cobalt sell.
This leads to the idea of "dual-boot" cyberdecks, tho'. I can
just see it "Man, that black IC stomped my face in. Better boot into
FastJackix and check my code" ;)

--
The Rev W Spaced Lee |I want to drink it up and swim in it
spaced@******.org |until I drown, My moral standing is
Check out the Bill Page! |lying down - Nine Inch Nails
http://www.spaced.org/bill.html
KI lWlmOp EL+ m3 CPEIW B11 Ol Lbs ScMC Tx A5 H6o b3 D0

From:	Ereskanti@*.com Ereskanti@*.com
Subject:	Cyberdecks and PC's
Date:	Sun, 25 Apr 1999 19:10:16 EDT

Message no. 3 In a message dated 4/25/1999 2:18:05 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
BillT@*********.com writes:

> In VR2 it clearly states that a personal computer, NOT a cyberdeck, needs
> to be used for all programming tasks. Yet a cyberdeck is described in SR3
> p206 as a "powerful microcomputer cranking out enough processing power to
> implement the ASSIST interface."
>
> Wouldn't this "powerful microcomputer" be able to handle the same tasks
> as a personal computer? Why would you need both?

You are correct, you could do the programming on your cyberdeck as long as
the cyberdeck's memory requirements matched the necessities required for the
programming task.

-K

From:	Ulrich Haupt sandman@****.uni-oldenburg.de
Subject:	Cyberdecks and PC's
Date:	Mon, 26 Apr 1999 09:51:34 +0200

Message no. 4 Ereskanti@***.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 4/25/1999 2:18:05 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
> BillT@*********.com writes:
>
> > In VR2 it clearly states that a personal computer, NOT a cyberdeck, needs
> > to be used for all programming tasks. Yet a cyberdeck is described in SR3
> > p206 as a "powerful microcomputer cranking out enough processing power to
> > implement the ASSIST interface."
> >
> > Wouldn't this "powerful microcomputer" be able to handle the same
tasks
> > as a personal computer? Why would you need both?
>
> You are correct, you could do the programming on your cyberdeck as long as
> the cyberdeck's memory requirements matched the necessities required for the
> programming task.

I have the same opinion as K.
I think it is assumed that characters don't want to take
their have ready level 8 attack programm with them on
dangerous runs. So they need - at least - a second place to
store the program code. It would be to time expansive to
loose halve a year of programming time. IMHO the computer is
only mentioned to say that ONLY a personal computer(PC) is
needed and not a second cyberdeck is necessary. Of course
(when I am the GM) you can do it all on your cyberdeck, take
it with you on the run and "trash" it full of programming
code. I'm sure you did some programming sometime in RL and
then you know that you have at least three versions of your
programm at different stages. That would take much of your
valuable storage memory of your cyberdeck. *egmg* How
painful it must be to decide to keep the written code and to
leave the 100.000 Nuyen data where it is just because you
have a to small memory for both.

All just my humble opinion!

Sandman

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Cyberdecks and PC's
Date:	Mon, 26 Apr 1999 11:15:51 +0200

Message no. 5 According to B. Blackbarin, at 12:18 on 25 Apr 99, the word on
the street was...

> In VR2 it clearly states that a personal computer, NOT a cyberdeck, needs
> to be used for all programming tasks. Yet a cyberdeck is described in SR3
> p206 as a "powerful microcomputer cranking out enough processing power to
> implement the ASSIST interface."
>
> Wouldn't this "powerful microcomputer" be able to handle the same tasks
> as a personal computer? Why would you need both?

Simple answer: because, like whoever wrote the movie I watched last night,
FASA knows *&%%#*#-all about computers. This can be seen first of all from
the entire set of Matrix rules :)

If a cyberdeck is a very powerful computer, it should be useable as such,
IMHO, including using it for mundane tasks like programming Matrix
utilities or even word processing. Of course, you'd still need a normal
computer (or another cyberdeck) to write the code needed for deck
components, like the MPCP.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Throwing fire at the sun
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Starrngr@*.com Starrngr@*.com
Subject:	Cyberdecks and PC's
Date:	Mon, 26 Apr 1999 09:08:10 EDT

Message no. 6 In a message dated 4/26/99 2:16:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time, gurth@******.nl
writes:

> Simple answer: because, like whoever wrote the movie I watched last night,
> FASA knows *&%%#*#-all about computers. This can be seen first of all from
> the entire set of Matrix rules :)
>

Indeed, as also showin in Shadowbeat, which, in defiance of the fact that a
binary chip must use a binary addressing system, says that Optical chips
(remember *THAT* argument??)
Come in 10mp increments up to 100mp, then 100mp up to 1 GP (1,000 MP).

This clearly shows an addiction to the base 10 decimal system and no knowlege
of the nature of the Binary system that would actually be used, regardless of
what handwaving you want to claim.

From:	Slipspeed atreloar@*********.com
Subject:	Cyberdecks and PC's
Date:	Mon, 26 Apr 1999 23:41:16 +1000

Message no. 7 > > FASA knows *&%%#*#-all about computers. This can be seen first of all
from
> > the entire set of Matrix rules :)
>
> Indeed, as also showin in Shadowbeat, which, in defiance of the fact that
a
> binary chip must use a binary addressing system, says that Optical chips
> (remember *THAT* argument??)
> Come in 10mp increments up to 100mp, then 100mp up to 1 GP (1,000 MP).
>
> This clearly shows an addiction to the base 10 decimal system and no
knowlege
> of the nature of the Binary system that would actually be used, regardless
of
> what handwaving you want to claim.

IMO, it shows an addiction for simplicity in the rules. That is a good
thing in my opinion. While we, the computer literate, know that base 2
means the closest we get to a nice, even number is 1024, the vast majority
don't know, and more importantly, don't care. So, instead of wasting lots
of valuable space explaining why such wierd numbers are used today and
possibly in the future, they simplified things. Just as things are being
simplified even today. I bought a 13Gb hard drive a few months back. Is it
actually 13Gb? No. It's 13000000000 bytes. (roughly) That means it's
less than 13 Gb, but for the vast majority of the population, the number
doesn't HAVe to be exact. It gives them a scale in size, something tangible
that they can look at and say "Ok, it's about double my currrent 6.4Gb hard
disk"

If they went into the nitty gritty of things like this, then people would
expect the same attention to detail in their weapons and damage codes, their
cyberware, their magic, their politics and demographics in the game and
more. There comes a point when enough detail is enough, the rest is mere
trivia for those who want to know, and FASA is there to make money from a
fun passtime they call a role playing game, not a future-set trivial
pursuit.

Slipspeed

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts
can be counted" - Albert Einstein
Adam Treloar aka Guardian, Slipspeed
atreloar@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	Richard Tomasso richard@****.com
Subject:	Cyberdecks and PC's
Date:	Mon, 26 Apr 1999 10:35:17 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 8 B. Blackbarin wrote:
> In VR2 it clearly states that a personal computer, NOT a cyberdeck, needs
> to be used for all programming tasks. Yet a cyberdeck is described in SR3
> p206 as a "powerful microcomputer cranking out enough processing power to
> implement the ASSIST interface."
>
> Wouldn't this "powerful microcomputer" be able to handle the same tasks
> as a personal computer? Why would you need both?

Yes it could. Plenty of reasons...

You probably don't keep a compiler and associated utlities on your cyberdeck.
Cyberdecks seem optimized for ASIST and the whole VR experience. They may not
have all the necessary software on board which takes up a lot of valuable
memory and storage space.

The time to edit, compile and test the program requires a second machine just
to get it done on time (running a regression test suite while on a run, etc).

It may be faster to do it on a PC since it isn't dedicating so many cycles
to the ASIST and Matrix interface.

Not putting all your eggs in one basket.

From:	Covington, Bryan bryan.covington@****.com
Subject:	Cyberdecks and PC's
Date:	Mon, 26 Apr 1999 11:47:17 -0400

Message no. 9 First Union Capital Markets Corp.

> IMO, it shows an addiction for simplicity in the rules. That is a good
<snip>
> possibly in the future, they simplified things. Just as things are being
> simplified even today. I bought a 13Gb hard drive a few months back. Is
> it
> actually 13Gb? No. It's 13000000000 bytes. (roughly) That means it's
> less than 13 Gb, but for the vast majority of the population, the number
> doesn't HAVe to be exact. It gives them a scale in size, something
> tangible
> that they can look at and say "Ok, it's about double my currrent 6.4Gb
> hard
> disk"
>
I agree here. A 13gb drive is actually 13,312,000,000 bytes.
But no one cares about the change, even programmers. If it helps you grasp
it better say a 1MP is 1024p. Does that help? Does it matter? Does anyone
really care? I would much rather see Fasa put a book out on time than worry
that their binary number simulation in the matrix rules is off a few digits.

On the other topic here, PC vs. Deck, I suggest this. The
deck has the ASIST built into it. It makes sense to use all that. I would
theorize a loading system with either very few or no visual surroundings
other than the programs in question.
I'll use an example, though some might not like it, from the
movie The Matrix (no flames please). The load construct that Morpheous uses,
with the TV and the two chairs. Something like this for your basic
programming needs. Individual decks would have rooms built by the deck's
owner that fit that persons sense of style and made them comfortable.

From:	Protokol13 Protokol13@********.com
Subject:	Cyberdecks and PC's
Date:	Mon, 26 Apr 1999 13:18:03 -0400

Message no. 10 Gurth wrote:

> Simple answer: because, like whoever wrote the movie I watched last night,
> FASA knows *&%%#*#-all about computers. This can be seen first of all from
> the entire set of Matrix rules :)

>>>>>[I agree that the Matrix rules did not seem to follow the logistics in
today's computing world. And in many cases it STILL doesn't seem to fit into
the logical constraints provided by the binary system. But there is one thing
that is forgotten here. As far as the computer revolution has gone, most of
it's theory has gone unchanged for many years. We are still using "logic
gating", and old tricks for doing arithmetic on our PC's today.

In my opinion, it could be quite possible for someone to come up with a system
that would completely knock down the binary system as the only logical system
for computers to work on. I know that right now, it's almost impossible to
foresee such a thing. But the only reason we use binary on PC's, is mainly
because it's the easiest and most logical way to operate something electronic.
It's easier to make tiny things that switch on and off, rather than make things
with a large range of values... And how would that work anyway?

But with arrival of sciences bordering on the limits of computer circuitry; and
because there is fundamental limit in that electrons would no longer be able to
move through dense magnetic fields... It is quite probable that a system might
arise, such as Quantum Computing, that could lead to a larger range of
"switches", and thus a much more complex logic scheme would be needed.

Even with the great power that computers have today, I see no way of them
reaching the level of ASSIST technology, unless a system comes about that
allows parallel processing at rates unheard of today... And this technology
would have to fit in a something the size of a keyboard!

I think we can reach this technology with a system that is more efficient than
the binary system. Although I doubt FASA got as philosophical as this, I think
it's important for people to accept that all the technology they know today
might change tomorrow.
As far as history seems to say, this will probably not be the case. And thus
2030+ may come around and bring nothing near the power of ASSIST technology.
But since this is just a game anyway I'm going to just accept the system as it
is, and not confuse my thoughts about it.

BTW... It also quite possible that a revolution in hardware might accelerate
the binary system to new levels. But I currently know of nothing that can do
this. ]<<<<<

--ProtoKol (1:16:34/4-26-99)

From:	Richard Tomasso richard@****.com
Subject:	Cyberdecks and PC's
Date:	Mon, 26 Apr 1999 13:30:01 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 11 Protokol13 wrote:
> In my opinion, it could be quite possible for someone to come up with a system
> that would completely knock down the binary system as the only logical system
> for computers to work on. I know that right now, it's almost impossible to
> foresee such a thing. But the only reason we use binary on PC's, is mainly
> because it's the easiest and most logical way to operate something electronic.
> It's easier to make tiny things that switch on and off, rather than make
> things with a large range of values... And how would that work anyway?

The Soviets did some work with trinary computers (base-3). Had some interesting
results, but it was hard to get consistent quality with 3.3v or 5v circuits.
The middle value always seemed too close to 0 or the high end, which is a
main reason we still use binary, it's a cleaner signal check.

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Cyberdecks and PC's
Date:	Mon, 26 Apr 1999 19:38:26 +0200

Message no. 12 According to Starrngr@***.com, at 9:08 on 26 Apr 99, the word on
the street was...

> Indeed, as also showin in Shadowbeat, which, in defiance of the fact that a
> binary chip must use a binary addressing system, says that Optical chips
> (remember *THAT* argument??)
> Come in 10mp increments up to 100mp, then 100mp up to 1 GP (1,000 MP).
>
> This clearly shows an addiction to the base 10 decimal system and no knowlege
> of the nature of the Binary system that would actually be used, regardless of
> what handwaving you want to claim.

In defense of FASA, Shadowbeat came out before Shadowtech made claims that
SR's optical chips are binary. BTW, by explaining exactly how these
optical chips work, Shadowtech inadvertently also opened up the whole
computer memory problem that FASA tried to avoid by using pulses instead
of bits and bytes -- since the optical chips have two states, just like
today's silicon ones, a 1,500 Mp cyberdeck thus has almost 1.5 GB of
storage space...

However, I don't want to go to far in this else I'll probably get reminded
of the fan-explanation debate we were having while watching Star Trek:
Voyager last night :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Throwing fire at the sun
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	runnerpaul@***.com runnerpaul@***.com
Subject:	Cyberdecks and PC's
Date:	Mon, 26 Apr 1999 13:37:50 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 13 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:47 AM 4/26/1999 -0400, Covington, Bryan wrote:
>>I bought a 13Gb hard drive a few months back. Is it
>>actually 13Gb? No. It's 13000000000 bytes. (roughly) That means
it's
>>less than 13 Gb, but for the vast majority of the population, the
number
>>doesn't HAVe to be exact.
<<Snip>>
> I agree here. A 13gb drive is actually 13,312,000,000
bytes.
>But no one cares about the change, even programmers.

Actually, I get the impression that he was saying that his drive is
actually right around 13,000,000,000 bytes, not 13,312,000,000 bytes.
Either number falls short though, if one sticks with strict binary:
1024 bytes in a kilobyte X 1024 kilobytes in a megabyte X 1024
megabytes in a gigabyte X 13 = 13,958,643,712 bytes. However, they get
away with selling these 4%-9% short of binary ideal because they put
disclaimers in their ads and tech specs that when they refer to a gb,
they mean 1,000,000,000 bytes.

This is a growing trend in the industry right now, a push to base ten.
In fact, the push is so strong that there's now a backlash movement,
just a fringe group at the moment, proposing new prefixes for binary
multiples: kibi- for 1024, mebi- for 1,048,576, gibi- for
1,073,741,824, tebi- for 1,099,511,627,776, exobi- for
1,125,899,906,842,624 and so on.

Right now, most people think these new binary prefixes are Rather
Silly, but who knows, they might have caught on by SR time, returning
kilo-, mega-, giga-, tera-, exo- and the rest to their original base
10 meanings.

If you're really concerned with the fact that optical chips should
have to use binary addressing, then give your players a price break of
oh, 5%-10% if they buy their memory in a capacity that's easily binary
addressable. This way, players can still get memory in round numbers
like 900, but they don't get any price breaks, because that sort of
chip would have to use an addressing scheme that is wasteful and has
unused addresses.

> On the other topic here, PC vs. Deck, I suggest this.
The
>deck has the ASIST built into it. It makes sense to use all that. I
would
>theorize a loading system with either very few or no visual
surroundings
>other than the programs in question.
> I'll use an example, though some might not like it,
from the
>movie The Matrix (no flames please). The load construct that
Morpheous uses,
>with the TV and the two chairs. Something like this for your basic
>programming needs. Individual decks would have rooms built by the
deck's
>owner that fit that persons sense of style and made them comfortable.

I would also suggest that it would be easy for a cyberdeck to overlay
ASIST generated imagery over the decker's real senses. Just run the
deck without the usual sensory cutout. If the deck is set to send an
ASIST visual track that's blank except for a floating image of a
computer screen, then that screen will appear overlaid over what the
decker is seeing with his own eyes. This way, a cyberdeck could be
used as a computer, without the decker being fully jacked in and
oblivious to the real world.

And if the GM is of the opinion that a cyberdeck is nothing more than
a terminal, with all it's processing power dedicated solely to
generating the ASIST imagery of the Matrix, there is still hope. Get
yourself a personal computer either pocket-sized or wrist-sized if
space is a consideration, take it out of it's casing, and wire the
guts into spare space on your cyberdeck, tying it in to the deck's
inputs and outputs.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

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From:	Oliver McDonald oliver@*********.com
Subject:	Cyberdecks and PC's
Date:	Mon, 26 Apr 1999 11:10:27 -0700 (PDT)

Message no. 14 On Mon, 26 Apr 1999 11:47:17 -0400, Covington, Bryan wrote:

>> actually 13Gb? No. It's 13000000000 bytes. (roughly) That means it's
>> less than 13 Gb, but for the vast majority of the population, the number
>> doesn't HAVe to be exact. It gives them a scale in size, something
>> tangible
>> that they can look at and say "Ok, it's about double my currrent 6.4Gb
>> hard
>> disk"
>>
> I agree here. A 13gb drive is actually 13,312,000,000 bytes.
>But no one cares about the change, even programmers. If it helps you grasp
>it better say a 1MP is 1024p. Does that help? Does it matter? Does anyone
>really care? I would much rather see Fasa put a book out on time than worry
>that their binary number simulation in the matrix rules is off a few digits.

Just to further spam the list with more crap on this, 13 Gb is actually 13,958,643,712
bytes, or just shy of 14 billion bytes.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Oliver McDonald - oliver@*********.com
http://web2.spydernet.com/oliver/
-----------------------------------------------------------
Space. The Final Frontier. Let's not close it down.
Brought to you via CyberSpace, the recursive frontier.

"that is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may
die."
-H.P. Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu."

From:	Starrngr@*.com Starrngr@*.com
Subject:	Cyberdecks and PC's
Date:	Mon, 26 Apr 1999 13:33:37 EDT

Message no. 15 In a message dated 4/26/99 10:15:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
Protokol13@********.com writes:

> But with arrival of sciences bordering on the limits of computer circuitry;
> and
> because there is fundamental limit in that electrons would no longer be
able
> to
> move through dense magnetic fields... It is quite probable that a system
> might
> arise, such as Quantum Computing, that could lead to a larger range of
> "switches", and thus a much more complex logic scheme would be needed.
>

Except if you actually read what they talk about in VR two, and how Optical
storage chips work, its still totaly plain that for the most part the number
crunching is performed by a binary system. Red is a 1 and green is a 0. Or
maybe its the other way around. Net result, still, is that the bulk of the
processing can be considered to be effectvily digital, since thats what the
storage medium is like.

In fact, If you read between the lines, and there are a few outright quotes
in Shadowbeat, the main data movers is digital fibre optics. NO fancy multi
state things there. And, as you noted, the fact that all of this fits in a
package about the size of present day computer keyboards screams to me that
its just an evolution of what we see now. They couldnt have come up with
radical new computing methods for decks and have them down small enough to be
the size of the keyboard in such a short period of time IMO.

From:	Ereskanti@*.com Ereskanti@*.com
Subject:	Cyberdecks and PC's
Date:	Mon, 26 Apr 1999 18:02:21 EDT

Message no. 16 In a message dated 4/26/1999 4:16:06 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
gurth@******.nl writes:

>
> Simple answer: because, like whoever wrote the movie I watched last night,
> FASA knows *&%%#*#-all about computers. This can be seen first of all from
> the entire set of Matrix rules :)

Oh, and what movie was this one???

> If a cyberdeck is a very powerful computer, it should be useable as such,
> IMHO, including using it for mundane tasks like programming Matrix
> utilities or even word processing. Of course, you'd still need a normal
> computer (or another cyberdeck) to write the code needed for deck
> components, like the MPCP.

Theoretically, the "Read/Write" Utility *IS* a Word Processing program,
probably with some spreadsheet abilities and a few neato graphic image
modifiers all tossed in (just to make the finished report paper look
goshen!!! ;).

However, there *is* something that we have considered here. There are *some*
limits to the potential rating(s) any particular program can have. I keep
thinking the restriction is the programmer's skill rating. We have
considered something parallel to this. The "Programming Suite" setup could
be given a "rating", in much the same way that a Hermetic Library or Shamanic
Lodge has a "rating" for tasks used to design and/or implement a given
action. The Suite itself could also have an MP value (probably a bit high,
on par with say the MPCP of a cyberdeck) that would have to have memory
considerations as well. Then, at this point, the *optional* rules for
libraries/lodges could be considered as well (where if the rating of the
library (in this case the Programming Suite) were higher than the spells
(programs) end rating, the Suite's "tools" would give a few extra dice to
design the end program with).

Just yet a few more thoughts.

-K

From:	Ereskanti@*.com Ereskanti@*.com
Subject:	Cyberdecks and PC's
Date:	Mon, 26 Apr 1999 18:14:50 EDT

Message no. 17 In a message dated 4/26/1999 12:15:22 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Protokol13@********.com writes:

> >>>>>[I agree that the Matrix rules did not seem to follow the
logistics in
<snip!>
> this. ]<<<<<
>
> --ProtoKol (1:16:34/4-26-99)

Now guy, I realize I am not a "GridSec" type (especially since I don't get
wear...probably couldn't anyway...those nifty black leather/vinyl
boots)...but there is a comment about posting in "SR Form" in the FAQ.

-K (....as in, you don't do it...)

PS:::this coming from the guy who get smacked/thwapped for doing this when he
first joined two years ago too:::

From:	Protokol13 Protokol13@********.com
Subject:	Cyberdecks and PC's
Date:	Mon, 26 Apr 1999 22:34:20 -0400

Message no. 18 Ereskanti@***.com wrote:

> Now guy, I realize I am not a "GridSec" type (especially since I don't get
> wear...probably couldn't anyway...those nifty black leather/vinyl
> boots)...but there is a comment about posting in "SR Form" in the FAQ.

I didn't read that. I usually just follow the simple rule: Don't be rude on a
listserv.

As for the complaint... I usually don't post in the "SR style", and I just did
so
to add a little effect to the whole topic. (which revolved around computing)

And why is it so bad to post that way anyway?! People must have the wierdest pet
peaves out there..... But I guess I can see where it can get kind of annoying.

Protokol13

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Cyberdecks and PC's
Date:	Tue, 27 Apr 1999 10:48:10 +0200

Message no. 19 According to Starrngr@***.com, at 13:33 on 26 Apr 99, the word on
the street was...

> In fact, If you read between the lines, and there are a few outright quotes
> in Shadowbeat, the main data movers is digital fibre optics. NO fancy multi
> state things there. And, as you noted, the fact that all of this fits in a
> package about the size of present day computer keyboards screams to me that
> its just an evolution of what we see now. They couldnt have come up with
> radical new computing methods for decks and have them down small enough to be
> the size of the keyboard in such a short period of time IMO.

How about a RL analogy?

Microchips were invented around when? Late 1960s/early '70s, IIRC. That's
roughly 25 to 30 years between their invention and computers becoming the
size of keyboards (okay, laptops -- which I'm thinking of now -- are a bit
bigger than just the keyboard, but they'll do for this example).

Assuming SR's optical chips were made practical in the early decades of
the century, I don't see why by 2050, keyboard-sized computers wouldn't be
practical.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Throwing fire at the sun
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Cyberdecks and PC's
Date:	Tue, 27 Apr 1999 10:48:10 +0200

Message no. 20 According to Ereskanti@***.com, at 18:02 on 26 Apr 99, the word on
the street was...

> > Simple answer: because, like whoever wrote the movie I watched last night,
> > FASA knows *&%%#*#-all about computers. This can be seen first of all from
> > the entire set of Matrix rules :)
>
> Oh, and what movie was this one???

Hackers. I got the distinct impression that the writers had heard (or
looked up) a bunch of computer terminology, and invented what it meant as
they went along writing the script.

> > If a cyberdeck is a very powerful computer, it should be useable as such,
> > IMHO, including using it for mundane tasks like programming Matrix
> > utilities or even word processing. Of course, you'd still need a normal
> > computer (or another cyberdeck) to write the code needed for deck
> > components, like the MPCP.
>
> Theoretically, the "Read/Write" Utility *IS* a Word Processing program,
> probably with some spreadsheet abilities and a few neato graphic image
> modifiers all tossed in (just to make the finished report paper look
> goshen!!! ;).

Yep, and at low ratings (1, and maybe 2) the price even makes sense. Above
those levels, though, I doubt anyone would pay 14,400 nuyen or more for a
fancy word processor :)

> However, there *is* something that we have considered here. There are *some*
> limits to the potential rating(s) any particular program can have. I keep
> thinking the restriction is the programmer's skill rating.

That is true -- VR 2.0 page 101: "The ratings of all other programs [than
the MPCP software and frame cores] may not exceed the [programmer's] skill
rating".

> We have considered something parallel to this. The "Programming Suite"
> setup could be given a "rating", in much the same way that a Hermetic
> Library or Shamanic Lodge has a "rating" for tasks used to design
> and/or implement a given action.

In essence, it already has: the task bonus provided by the different types
of programming tools varies. A "programming kit" gives a +1 bonus, a shop
a +2, and a suite +5, which could be interpreted as there being three
different levels of programming tools. Of course, you could add more
ratings, from 1 to infinity like for things such as magical libraries. All
you'd need to do is extrapolte costs, IMHO.

> The Suite itself could also have an MP value (probably a bit high, on
> par with say the MPCP of a cyberdeck) that would have to have memory
> considerations as well.

That's one major omission in the VR 2.0 rules, yes.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Throwing fire at the sun
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	David Buehrer dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject:	Cyberdecks and PC's
Date:	Tue, 27 Apr 1999 07:10:49 -0600 (MDT)

Message no. 21 Gurth wrote:
/
/ According to Starrngr@***.com, at 13:33 on 26 Apr 99, the word on
/ the street was...
/
/ Microchips were invented around when? Late 1960s/early '70s, IIRC. That's
/ roughly 25 to 30 years between their invention and computers becoming the
/ size of keyboards (okay, laptops -- which I'm thinking of now -- are a bit
/ bigger than just the keyboard, but they'll do for this example).

FWIW, you can get a keyboard computer. The fastest chip available is a
slow PII because they can't fit a large fan in the keyboard, but it's
been done (you still need to plug it into a monitor). I forget who the
manufacturer is.

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
ShadowRN GridSec
The ShadowRN FAQ: http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair/
Geek Code: GCS d-( ) s++:->+ a@ C++>$ US P L >++ E? W++>+++ !N o-- K-
w+ o? M- VMS? PS+(++) PE+(++) Y+ !PGP t+(++) 5+(++) X++(+++) R+>$ tv+
b++ DI++++ D+(++) G e+>+++ h--->---- r+++ y+++

From:	David Buehrer dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject:	Cyberdecks and PC's
Date:	Tue, 27 Apr 1999 07:28:30 -0600 (MDT)

Message no. 22 Protokol13 wrote:
/
/ Ereskanti@***.com wrote:
/
/ > Now guy, I realize I am not a "GridSec" type (especially since I don't
get
/ > wear...probably couldn't anyway...those nifty black leather/vinyl
/ > boots)...but there is a comment about posting in "SR Form" in the FAQ.
/
/ I didn't read that. I usually just follow the simple rule: Don't be rude on a
/ listserv.

And a very good rule it is :)

/ And why is it so bad to post that way anyway?! People must have the
/ wierdest pet peaves out there..... But I guess I can see where it can
/ get kind of annoying.

It's been in the FAQ since I joined in '96. AFAIK that format is
reserved for ShadowTK. And I believe posting in "SR Matrix Form" is
seen along the same lines as posting in character. And trust me when I
say that posting in character can cause quite a mess :)

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
ShadowRN GridSec
The ShadowRN FAQ: http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair/
Geek Code: GCS d-( ) s++:->+ a@ C++>$ US P L >++ E? W++>+++ !N o-- K-
w+ o? M- VMS? PS+(++) PE+(++) Y+ !PGP t+(++) 5+(++) X++(+++) R+>$ tv+
b++ DI++++ D+(++) G e+>+++ h--->---- r+++ y+++

From:	Mockingbird mockingbird@*********.com
Subject:	Cyberdecks and PC's
Date:	Tue, 27 Apr 1999 09:38:32 -0500

Message no. 23 ----- Original Message -----
From: Gurth <gurth@******.nl>
To: <shadowrn@*********.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 1999 3:48 AM
Subject: Re: Cyberdecks and PC's

> How about a RL analogy?
>
> Microchips were invented around when? Late 1960s/early '70s, IIRC.
That's
> roughly 25 to 30 years between their invention and computers becoming
the
> size of keyboards (okay, laptops -- which I'm thinking of now -- are a
bit
> bigger than just the keyboard, but they'll do for this example).
>
> Assuming SR's optical chips were made practical in the early decades
of
> the century, I don't see why by 2050, keyboard-sized computers
wouldn't be
> practical.
>

Actually, there is a company in the United States (can't remember what
the name is) that makes what they call a Zero Footprint Keyboard, where
they take laptop components and build it into a keyboard. It doesn't
have a monitor (has a svga output) but then again, neither do most
decks.

Mockingbird

From:	Snake Eyes snake.eyes@********.att.net
Subject:	Cyberdecks and PC's
Date:	Tue, 27 Apr 1999 10:48:22 -0700

Message no. 24 At 07:10 AM 4/27/99 -0600, David Buehrer wrote:
>
>FWIW, you can get a keyboard computer. The fastest chip available is a
>slow PII because they can't fit a large fan in the keyboard, but it's
>been done (you still need to plug it into a monitor). I forget who the
>manufacturer is.

The Zero-Footprint PC is made by Cybernet Manufacturing, Inc.

http://www.cybernetman.com

It's basically a low-end Pentium-class notebook computer crammed into a
modified standard 101/102 key keyboard case. I admit that the first time I
saw one of these babies I instantly thought of a cyberdeck, but in reality
they kind of suck even by today's standards.

Someday.

~ Snake Eyes

From:	Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject:	Cyberdecks and PC's
Date:	Tue, 27 Apr 1999 11:49:55 -0500

Message no. 25 > The Suite itself could also have an MP value (probably a bit high, on
> par with say the MPCP of a cyberdeck) that would have to have memory
> considerations as well.

That's one major omission in the VR 2.0 rules, yes.
++++++++++++++++++

As I recall, a programming suite is designed to run on a host.
programming on a host already provides a nice bonus (well, DUH), and the
suite just bumps it a bit. My impression is that most "programming" takes
some intensive processing power (maybe like rendering, to generate the
assist imagery, or building some sort of data table or cracking reference
files), so obviously working on a host confers a big advantage. This also
explains why Otaku get such a nice task bonus when making complex forms.
Anyhow, I agree that you could do utility / build task programming in a
cyberdeck, using the cyberdecks active memory as computer memory, and even
install a programming shop (20mp, or something, iirc). Having a lot of
offline storage (for saving the stuff when you need to use the deck) would
be handy, in that case.

Mongoose

From:	Number Ten Ox number_10_ox@**********.com
Subject:	Cyberdecks and PC's
Date:	Tue, 27 Apr 1999 09:55:58 -0700 (PDT)

Message no. 26 ---Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
> Simple answer: because, like whoever wrote the movie I watched last
night,
> FASA knows *&%%#*#-all about computers. This can be seen first of all
from
> the entire set of Matrix rules :)
>
> If a cyberdeck is a very powerful computer, it should be useable as such,
> IMHO, including using it for mundane tasks like programming Matrix
> utilities or even word processing. Of course, you'd still need a normal
> computer (or another cyberdeck) to write the code needed for deck
> components, like the MPCP.

<advocate mode="devil's">
I agree with you that FASA knows f***-all about computers. But
shirley we Shadowrun players can come up with a better rationale than
that? :)

How about:
All a cyberdeck is is an ASIST interface that's built onto a CPU. The
CPU in question is extremely specialized and streamlined for rapidly running
specialized clandestine and intrusion programs. As in, designed (via
pipelining, various caching schemes, etcetera) to be faster tham greased
lightning in doing just that.
Which means that your performance will take a nosedive if you try
something on the cyberdeck that the cyberdeck was not designed to do.
Like, say, a compile.

Besides, if you're writing your code only with the ASIST interface
you're automatically screwed. The ASIST interface will need to translate
your code down to the machine level, which means at least one and possibly
more translator/optimizer passes, which (despite the name) will introduce
inefficiencies into your code. Okay, so they're minor inefficiencies -- a
loop run an extra time here, a variable needlessly set there -- which will
cost you microseconds, if that.

But when your brain's on the line against Black IC, chummer,
microseconds may be all you've *got*. The best deckers code in Assembler
on the bare metal.
</advocate>
<advocate mode="silly">
Actually, the best deckers just bang two rocks together to get a '1'....
</advocate>

--Number 10, who wants an optimizer with DINAB-12. :)

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Cyberdecks and PC's
Date:	Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:00:54 +0200

Message no. 27 According to Number Ten Ox, at 9:55 on 27 Apr 99, the word on
the street was...

> <advocate mode="devil's">
> I agree with you that FASA knows f***-all about computers. But
> shirley we Shadowrun players can come up with a better rationale than
> that? :)

My name isn't Shirley :)

> How about:
[snip long explanation]
> </advocate>

You did precisely what I prefer to avoid. I call it the "Trekkie syndrome"
as it seems to manifest itself quite a lot among ST fans.

Which isn't to say that I don't, from time to time, come up with some
bullshit explanation for an illogical or silly thing in SR. It's just that
I prefer not to have to :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Throwing fire at the sun
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Ereskanti@*.com Ereskanti@*.com
Subject:	Cyberdecks and PC's
Date:	Thu, 29 Apr 1999 17:32:42 EDT

Message no. 28 In a message dated 4/29/1999 8:11:08 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
gurth@******.nl writes:

> > <advocate mode="devil's">
> > I agree with you that FASA knows f***-all about computers. But
> > shirley we Shadowrun players can come up with a better rationale than
> > that? :)
>
> My name isn't Shirley :)

Actually, I was going to make some remark originally about people not needing
to pick on my mother...I do that often enough (that's her name).

> > How about:
> [snip long explanation]
> > </advocate>
>
> You did precisely what I prefer to avoid. I call it the "Trekkie syndrome"

> as it seems to manifest itself quite a lot among ST fans.

Nah, you need plausible deniability...it's a common thing these days....don't
worry about...

-K

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