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Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Neal A Porter <nap@*****.PHYSICS.SWIN.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: 'cyber'ing cops/infantry
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1993 14:42:33 +1100
Regarding the cost of 'cyber cops' that Ivy quoted on a recent
post.
Say each cop is equiped as Ivy mentioned, with 263knY worth of
cyber. Now that makes them pretty effective individually. Others
have raised the point about cops operating as a group rather than as
individuals so I wont go down this path, even though I agree with
it. I will instead tackle the problem from a cost perspective.

Lets say that in Seattle that there are about 5000 active cops,
with more cops in the non action divisions, such as communications.
These 5000 are just street officers. If each of them cost 263knY to
kit out with cyber you get a grand cost for cyber enhancement of
1.315bnY, yes 1.315 BILLION nY. And this is just for one city.
Multiple this over the UCAS and you have a huge cost bill. If all
nations on the planet {assume 2B people left} has an average of one
cop per 2000 citizens you are left with 1M cops. Each of which
costs 263knY.
Total cost for world police security
26300000000nY, or 283 billion nY. A bit overpriced I think,
and these number are assumeing a very low percentage of cops, in
first world nations the police percentage runs at about 1/200, or a
staggering 2830 billion nY. There is NO way that any police force in
the world would be willing to 263K on ANY officer, its just not
worth it.

Now lets look at the estimate for an infantry solder 243K per
wo/man. A single line company (130 bodies) would cost 31.59 million.
Compare this with an line company with say only SGL's, costing 0.325
million. You can now equip 97 companies for the same price. And no
matter what you can say if you place 97 uncybered people in with one
cybered person, that one may take out 10 of them but they will get
the cyber dude. Remember, that cost effectiveness is whats at stake
here, any placing 243knY of equipment in every trooper is NOT!. Huge
'cyberwear'ing of individuals would only be cost effective for certain
branches of the military, such as combat pilots, tanks, special forces
{ And I mean squad sized units here, not divisions }, etc. Where the
performance increase warrents the increased cost.

The placement of high tech cyberwear on individual line troops is
stupid. The USA didn't win the Gulf war because their infantry had
better equipment, they won because their tanks, aircraft, helos,
ships, communications and intellegence were better. Using brains
will always make up for the use of brute force.

Adeus.
Message no. 2
From: Ben Jordan <jordanbd@***.BELOIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: 'cyber'ing cops/infantry
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1993 17:35:26 +22310502
Where ae you getting the people to make your armies? From the SINless? The
corporations? There just are not that many people available. The is the
other reason for smaller well equipped armies. You just don't have the people.
Mabie China could afford your plan, but the UCAS doesn't have the people.
Armies in Shadow Run are volunteer not conscript. That is what the Metro
Plex guard are. You many want to think about the loss of life you are
proposing here too. The idea is for the troops to live throught the battle,
not die in the name of their country. That is what you are supposed to make
the other guy do.
--

Ben-ha-meen
--i feel evil. like, that i am evil, not that
i feel an evil presence or something--

james mcculloch
Message no. 3
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: 'cyber'ing cops/infantry
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1993 00:37:47 -0600
>Where ae you getting the people to make your armies? From the SINless? The
>corporations? There just are not that many people available. The is the

Well, true, in Shadowrun the population crunch has been lessened by famine
and a plague or two, let alone the alarming preponderence Shadowrunners have
for inflicting collateral damage :) But I think realistically, there will
be no shortage of people. The military-industrial coplex has long been a
significant provider of jobs; that fact alone has been used by some to
argue against defense budget cuts.

>Armies in Shadow Run are volunteer not conscript. That is what the Metro

What about the Third World, where many of these battles will take place? Or
people fighting for their country/religion/pez? They don't have time or
access to cyber. Let's not make general statements based on the state-of-the-
art.

>Plex guard are. You many want to think about the loss of life you are
>proposing here too. The idea is for the troops to live throught the battle,
>not die in the name of their country. That is what you are supposed to make
>the other guy do.

Face it, since the beginning of the century, or even dating back to the
American Civil War. WW! was kind of a shock for the Old World as they sent
horse-mounted cavalry charging into machinegun zones. WWII saw the
firebombing of Dresden and the birth of the Bomb. And no matter how
"surgical" or precise war gets, the easiest way to conquer a people will be
to kill them.

J Roberson

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Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.