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Message no. 1
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Cyberlimbs and Steppinwulfs
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 11:06:09 -0400
OK, I remember a short while ago there was a thread concerning Detachable
Cyberlimbs. Unfortunately I hadn't really followed the thread as closley
as I should have, and now find myself contemplating a character with
Detachable arms.

So the question is, is this possible? I'm thinking something that would be
fairly simple and quick to detach and replace, but would probably require
extra essence for the linking mechanism, or whateevr...

Also, and this is related to my question above, how has everyone else used
the Steppinwulf's? They seem like a lot of fun for a GM tool, and could
even make for an interesting character.

I've expanded them, in my game, beyond what they were in the Underworld
book into more of a full fledged gang with the cyber doctor as the gang's
"patron' and unofficial leader.

Also, I had a lot of fun with a troll who popped his hand off to reveal a
Minigun built into the arm. More than a bit far fetched, granted, but you
should have seen the look on the players faces! (I then topped it several
minutes later by transforming the target of their "extraction" into a
dragon, but that's another story).

I also love the idea of having a Buzz-Saw hand...:]

Bull-the-Born-to-be-Wild-Ork-Decker
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"Whoever invented solataire is one sadistic son of a bitch"
-- Me, after spending 2 hours trying to win a game
Message no. 2
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberlimbs and Steppinwulfs
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:40:02 -0700
> OK, I remember a short while ago there was a thread concerning Detachable
> Cyberlimbs. Unfortunately I hadn't really followed the thread as closley
> as I should have, and now find myself contemplating a character with
> Detachable arms.

Well, the thread went places it shouldn't've - don't ask - I was the
culprit.

> So the question is, is this possible? I'm thinking something that would be
> fairly simple and quick to detach and replace, but would probably require
> extra essence for the linking mechanism, or whateevr...

SR doesn't deal with power sources for cyberstuff, but it's something
that should be taken into consideration: how long can the detached arm
work, and how much can it do?

In some respects, the arm acts as a lever, braced against the fulcrum of
your shoulder. The detached arm would not have anything to brace itself
against - unless it's designed to act separately, at which point start
using drone rules - so it's going to be fairly weak (except the gripping
strength of the hand, of cource).

As far as the linking mechanism goes, it could be as simple as a
remote-control deck, or, more than likely, a dedicated piece of headware
(vehicle rig/radio, maybe? That makes it completely unworthwhile..)

I don't think Cybertech touched on this, but there should be a limit to
the amount of ware allowed in an arm (following the cybereye, 2.5
Essence?) Cyberpunk 2020 has better rules for this stuff, imho - or
some of the Plastic Warriors stuff (same-same?)

Well.. have fun, tell me the outcome..
Message no. 3
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberlimbs and Steppinwulfs
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 21:55:43 -0400
At 07:40 PM 9/5/97 -0700, Matb wrote these timeless words:
>> OK, I remember a short while ago there was a thread concerning Detachable
>> Cyberlimbs. Unfortunately I hadn't really followed the thread as closley
>> as I should have, and now find myself contemplating a character with
>> Detachable arms.
>
>Well, the thread went places it shouldn't've - don't ask - I was the
>culprit.
>
Hehe... been there, am usually the cause...;]

>> So the question is, is this possible? I'm thinking something that would be
>> fairly simple and quick to detach and replace, but would probably require
>> extra essence for the linking mechanism, or whateevr...
>
>SR doesn't deal with power sources for cyberstuff, but it's something
>that should be taken into consideration: how long can the detached arm
>work, and how much can it do?
>
>In some respects, the arm acts as a lever, braced against the fulcrum of
>your shoulder. The detached arm would not have anything to brace itself
>against - unless it's designed to act separately, at which point start
>using drone rules - so it's going to be fairly weak (except the gripping
>strength of the hand, of cource).
>
Ok, this got misinterpreted I think. I don;t need nor want a cyberlimb
that could function by remote, or whatever. I simply want to be able to
take one arm, say one that has a tool kit built into the fingers, and
replace it with an arm with a machine gun in it, or whatever. Basically
pop off and replace with a different one...

>I don't think Cybertech touched on this, but there should be a limit to
>the amount of ware allowed in an arm (following the cybereye, 2.5
>Essence?) Cyberpunk 2020 has better rules for this stuff, imho - or
>some of the Plastic Warriors stuff (same-same?)
>
Agreed. :]

>Well.. have fun, tell me the outcome..
>
Will do...:]

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"Whoever invented solataire is one sadistic son of a bitch"
-- Me, after spending 2 hours trying to win a game
Message no. 4
From: Skye Comstock <bilbo@****.NWLINK.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberlimbs and Steppinwulfs
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 20:05:52 -0800
>Ok, this got misinterpreted I think. I don;t need nor want a cyberlimb
>that could function by remote, or whatever. I simply want to be able to
>take one arm, say one that has a tool kit built into the fingers, and
>replace it with an arm with a machine gun in it, or whatever. Basically
>pop off and replace with a different one...

Oh... That'd be fuckin' rad! It might be more plausible/compact
to just have a detachable hand, though. Maybe something like
Data from Star Trek. IIRC, he was modular in design and he
could take his hand, head <g>, or whatever off without too
much of a hassle.

It wouldn't be *that* hard, IMO. Some corp must fabricate sockets
and junk like that... Pop on the drill, gun, chrome hand, flesh
hand, etc...

"What?! You're calling me a gimp?!"
<removes regular chrome hand and throws on the circular saw> ;)

-Skye
Message no. 5
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberlimbs and Steppinwulfs
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 06:35:13 -0700
> Ok, this got misinterpreted I think. I don;t need nor want a cyberlimb
> that could function by remote, or whatever. I simply want to be able to
> take one arm, say one that has a tool kit built into the fingers, and
> replace it with an arm with a machine gun in it, or whatever. Basically
> pop off and replace with a different one...

Ah: verrrry ChromeBook (g). I can't remember at all how CP handles it;
probably with a number of "slots" per arm, each 'gizmo' takes up x
number of slots... The difficulty is when you get to cybercontrolled
egar, as not all of it (smartlink) is going to use the same interface as
the others.

Another way to do it is to keep the same arm, but have pods or modules
(similar to the articulated arm in Cybertech) with different functions,
even using (if you have to) CF factor from the old Riggers (a system
which desperately needed overhauling). The difficulty with this comes
in-game, where a number of different modules might come from different
megacorps, none of whom are likely to agree on a common interface. OS
wars for cyberlimbs!

I can't see too much of a problem with this; exchanging arms would fall
under the cybertech B/R skill; figure it as a timed task, base time of
(say) 10 minutes, divided by the number of successes - in this case, you
want it to have to take longer; or, at least, there better be more than
just one lugnut keeping the thing on. Lugging extra arms around would
be a real pain in the posterior - but then, this isn't something to
happen in the middle of a shadowrun.

Well, hope this sparks ideas!


-M
Message no. 6
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberlimbs and Steppinwulfs
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 23:17:50 EDT
On Sun, 7 Sep 1997 21:55:43 -0400 Bull <chaos@*****.COM> writes:

>Ok, this got misinterpreted I think. I don;t need nor want a cyberlimb
>that could function by remote, or whatever. I simply want to be able to
>take one arm, say one that has a tool kit built into the fingers, and
>replace it with an arm with a machine gun in it, or whatever.
>Basically pop off and replace with a different one...

Ah... well that particular item is covered in ...
<sprints upstairs and rummages through bookshelf>
... oops, nevermind. I thought I remembered seeing something like that
in an old Ka*Ge issue.
But the only thing there was a Quick-Release wrist joint, and an 'Extra
Limb socket'.

Anyway, I don't see what you want as being *terribly* difficult. Just
increase the price by some percent (is 50 OK?) and include some Biotech
roll ot correctly swap out the limbs and you're in business.

~Tim
Message no. 7
From: Gweedo The Killer Pimp <yawas@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberlimbs and Steppinwulfs
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 23:37:00 -0500
On Sun, 7 Sep 1997 20:05:52 -0800 Skye Comstock <bilbo@****.NWLINK.COM>
writes:
>It wouldn't be *that* hard, IMO. Some corp must fabricate sockets
>and junk like that... Pop on the drill, gun, chrome hand, flesh
>hand, etc...

One slight problem would be actually getting the arm off when the time
comes. I mean, have you ever tried tying your shoes with one hand? And,
for some of the more spatially co-ordinated, it would probably nearing
impossible.

>"What?! You're calling me a gimp?!"
><removes regular chrome hand and throws on the circular saw> ;)

Even better:
"What?! your calling me a gimp?!
"o.k. hold on, I've almost got it, there, now I've got a circular saw
and, oh, you've got a gun to my <BLAM!!> ouch."

Gweedo the Killer Pimp!
Message no. 8
From: Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberlimbs and Steppinwulfs
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 04:44:26 -0400
In a message dated 97-09-07 11:07:15 EDT, you write:

> So the question is, is this possible? I'm thinking something that would be
> fairly simple and quick to detach and replace, but would probably require
> extra essence for the linking mechanism, or whateevr...

You are right, when I tried to start the thread earlier people got real silly
with it and the thread sort of died out within a week or so, and yes, the
linking mechanism did cost extra essence (.25 per limb or piece that was
detachable). In addition, each limb could not exceed the highest amount of
essence for the limb in question. In other words, if a sam had a right
cyberarm that had a cost of 1.6 essence, and this is what essence he gave up
to have it, then any other right cyberarm that was attached could have no
more than 1.6 essence loss either.

> Also, and this is related to my question above, how has everyone else used
> the Steppinwulf's? They seem like a lot of fun for a GM tool, and could
> even make for an interesting character.

Unfortunately I have never used the 'wulves as the gaming I play with
normally does not go into LA much.

> I've expanded them, in my game, beyond what they were in the Underworld
> book into more of a full fledged gang with the cyber doctor as the gang's
> "patron' and unofficial leader.

Sounds wonderful (sarcasm dripping off), considering how psychotic the
'wulves are then they have become one of the more dangerous, if not THE most
dangerous go-gang currently.

> Also, I had a lot of fun with a troll who popped his hand off to reveal a
> Minigun built into the arm. More than a bit far fetched, granted, but you
> should have seen the look on the players faces! (I then topped it several
> minutes later by transforming the target of their "extraction" into a
> dragon, but that's another story).

I had something like the hand coming off with a robot sentry, the hand fired
off, boosted by micro jets, and ended up giving a player a hand (the hard
way), and then the wrist joint popped off revealing the same type minigun,
which proceeded to fire lead at them.

> I also love the idea of having a Buzz-Saw hand...:]

No comment, the pc in question must really be well-liked by the ladies ...

> Bull-the-Born-to-be-Wild-Ork-Decker

AirWisp
Message no. 9
From: Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberlimbs and Steppinwulfs
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 04:52:33 -0400
In a message dated 97-09-07 12:26:19 EDT, you write:

> SR doesn't deal with power sources for cyberstuff, but it's something
> that should be taken into consideration: how long can the detached arm
> work, and how much can it do?

I always thought that the cyberware a person had installed in them drew power
from the bio-electric energy a person generated and always had my characters
eat more since they were almost always hungry, but not as bad as someone with
symbiotes or a suprathyrooid gland or worse.

> In some respects, the arm acts as a lever, braced against the fulcrum of
> your shoulder. The detached arm would not have anything to brace itself
> against - unless it's designed to act separately, at which point start
> using drone rules - so it's going to be fairly weak (except the gripping
> strength of the hand, of cource).

When I started the thread, the cyberlimbs were not meant to function much
beyond the person they were meant for. What I intended was for someone to be
able to have different cyberlimbs for different occassions.

> As far as the linking mechanism goes, it could be as simple as a
> remote-control deck, or, more than likely, a dedicated piece of headware
> (vehicle rig/radio, maybe? That makes it completely unworthwhile..)

If the cyberlimb a person had could operate completely on it's own, and the
person wanted to control it, rather than have it follow a preprogrammed
course of action, then the limb would have to follow the rules as if it were
a vehicle that was being remotely controlled by a rigger.

> I don't think Cybertech touched on this, but there should be a limit to
> the amount of ware allowed in an arm (following the cybereye, 2.5
> Essence?) Cyberpunk 2020 has better rules for this stuff, imho - or
> some of the Plastic Warriors stuff (same-same?)

The only limit that a person has as to how much stuff can go into a cyberlimb
happens to be the amount of essence the character can afford to lose, and how
much money someone is willing to spend on micronization.

AirWisp
Message no. 10
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Cyberlimbs and Steppinwulfs
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 11:52:57 +0100
Skye Comstock said on 20:05/ 7 Sep 97...

> Oh... That'd be fuckin' rad! It might be more plausible/compact
> to just have a detachable hand, though. Maybe something like
> Data from Star Trek. IIRC, he was modular in design and he
> could take his hand, head <g>, or whatever off without too
> much of a hassle.

So now we'll end up with Kryten the Ork-Turning-Wendigo decker? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Well, I have no opinion about that, and I have no opinion about me...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 11
From: Glenn Robb <GLENNROBB@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Cyberlimbs and Steppinwulfs
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 15:40:41 -0600
> > Oh... That'd be fuckin' rad! It might be more plausible/compact
> > to just have a detachable hand, though. Maybe something like
> > Data from Star Trek. IIRC, he was modular in design and he
> > could take his hand, head <g>, or whatever off without too
> > much of a hassle.
>
> So now we'll end up with Kryten the Ork-Turning-Wendigo decker? :)
>

Worse. Far worse. We will end up with Kryten the once orc-turned-terminator
with rigging capabilities. :)

— Elton Robb
Message no. 12
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberlimbs and Steppinwulfs
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 02:05:18 -0700
> > SR doesn't deal with power sources for cyberstuff, but it's something
> > that should be taken into consideration: how long can the detached arm
> > work, and how much can it do?

> I always thought that the cyberware a person had installed in them drew power
> from the bio-electric energy a person generated and always had my characters
> eat more since they were almost always hungry, but not as bad as someone with
> symbiotes or a suprathyrooid gland or worse.

Um, how much bio-energy does the human body produce? And how much does
that buzzsaw hand require, again? Not meaning to be picky - well, I am
- but the body really isn't meant to be a diesel generator.

> > In some respects, the arm acts as a lever, braced against the fulcrum of
> > your shoulder. The detached arm would not have anything to brace itself
> > against - unless it's designed to act separately, at which point start
> > using drone rules - so it's going to be fairly weak (except the gripping
> > strength of the hand, of cource).

> When I started the thread, the cyberlimbs were not meant to function much
> beyond the person they were meant for. What I intended was for someone to be
> able to have different cyberlimbs for different occassions.

You can understand, however, how the topic arises.

> > As far as the linking mechanism goes, it could be as simple as a
> > remote-control deck, or, more than likely, a dedicated piece of headware
> > (vehicle rig/radio, maybe? That makes it completely unworthwhile..)

> If the cyberlimb a person had could operate completely on it's own, and the
> person wanted to control it, rather than have it follow a preprogrammed
> course of action, then the limb would have to follow the rules as if it were
> a vehicle that was being remotely controlled by a rigger.

> > I don't think Cybertech touched on this, but there should be a limit to
> > the amount of ware allowed in an arm (following the cybereye, 2.5
> > Essence?) Cyberpunk 2020 has better rules for this stuff, imho - or
> > some of the Plastic Warriors stuff (same-same?)

> The only limit that a person has as to how much stuff can go into a cyberlimb
> happens to be the amount of essence the character can afford to lose, and how
> much money someone is willing to spend on micronization.

..And how miniature things can possibly get, as well. Could you
reasonably fit a microwave oven into your arm? Without developing a
permanent lean?

Not to mention how the various items interact, as well. Having a
fishtank built into your arm is nice, but needs to be kept safe from the
espresso machine you have sidemounted at the elbow. Sad to say, but
vibration-dampening materials don't get micronized into nanofilms; there
is simply a physical bulk required.

While I'm being glib, I'm certain you can see the correspondence to more
mainstream SR gear: there's a point past which you can't micronize a
SMG, or you end up shooting BBs instead of 9mm. And the rest of the
human body - it's not like the cyebrarm just floats beside its user -
has to deal with the stress and imbalance the bulk of the cyberlimb
requires. That's the real limit, not Essence.

From the Essence point of view, though: I simply can't imagine someone
kicking because they turned their arm into Swiss Army Limb. (Of course,
I'm hard pressed to think of 6 Essence worth of cyberjunk to put in my
arm, stuff that I'd rather have there than safe behind my ribcage or
cranium, at any rate.)

> AirWisp

Further Reading

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Thwap!