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Message no. 1
From: "Randy Nickel (General)" <a-randyn@*********.com>
Subject: Cyber limbs/torso
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 10:27:27 -0800
This has probably been discussed before but since I'm new I'll bring it
up again. In Cybertechnolgy they have changed the essence cost for
cyber limbs and added strength. I have some PC's who have a single
cyber arm with extra strength and also muscle replacement. I am trying
to correct the character's so that they are up to date with current
rules.

If I read this right a cyber arm on a human comes with a strength of
(3), I can upgrade the arm to strength (6) with out additional essence
loss. If I have characters though that have a strength of (6), and
muscle replacement (4) they would have a strength of (10) and and the
essence loss, assuming standard cyberware - no adjustments for
surrgery, would be 5 (one for the arm and four for the muscle
replacement four).

OK. If my strength is a natural (6) and I get a cyberarm I have to get
the +3 to be balanced (so 1 point essence loss) . If I also had Muscle
Replacement (4) (essence loss 4 + 1 for the arm is 5) I will need to
raise the strength and additional +4 for the arm to be balanced which
means I will have to spend an additional 1.6 essence to keep it all
balanced (we are up to 6.6). Is anyone seeing my yet.

The Cyber arm does not seem quite as cool as it use to be (of course I
could just be whining). Had I not gotten the arm and stuck with just
muscle replacement I would save on essence and not have to worry about
balancing. Now if getting a cyber torso, cuts the essence loss for
increased strength mods on cyberarms that might make a differance, but
I have not found any such ruling.

So what was the whole point. I am just wondering about options people
are using with this ruling and if it sounds like I got it all right.

Thx,

Randy "Snick" Nickel
Message no. 2
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Cyber limbs/torso
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 13:36:50 -0700 (MST)
Randy Nickel wrote:
|
|This has probably been discussed before but since I'm new I'll bring it
|up again. In Cybertechnolgy they have changed the essence cost for
|cyber limbs and added strength. I have some PC's who have a single
|cyber arm with extra strength and also muscle replacement. I am trying
|to correct the character's so that they are up to date with current
|rules.
|
[snip] Way to update a character's cyberlimbs.
|
|So what was the whole point. I am just wondering about options people
|are using with this ruling and if it sounds like I got it all right.

I use a much simpler method. The limb they bought uses the rules that were
around when they bought it. If they want to use the new rules they have to
buy a new limb. In my game this is a reflection of technological advances.
Old limb, old technology, higher essence cost, lower strength. New limb,
new technology, lower essence cost, higher strength. It also has the added
advantages making characters spend money.

The only time I update characters is when a radical change in the game has
taken place, like VR2.0.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"Wanted: All Kathey Lee Gifford albums. Including her "Greatest
Hits" album and her Christmas album. Contact the Possum Lodge Skeet
Shooting Club."
~~~~~~~~~~www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html~~~~~~~~~
Message no. 3
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Cyber limbs/torso
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 22:38:16 +0000 (GMT)
|
|This has probably been discussed before but since I'm new I'll bring it
|up again. In Cybertechnolgy they have changed the essence cost for
|cyber limbs and added strength. I have some PC's who have a single
|cyber arm with extra strength and also muscle replacement. I am trying
|to correct the character's so that they are up to date with current
|rules.

The way I'd play it, is everything in Cybertech is *new* technology.
All the old tech should still be valid, but the party can *choose* to
undergo the surgery required to replace the old with the new.
(And pay of course.....)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant boulder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal subjects in:-|to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can still say FUCK! Americans can't|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 4
From: Marizhavashti Kali <xenya@********.com>
Subject: Re: Cyber limbs/torso
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 00:08:10 -0800 (PST)
On Mon, 25 Mar 1996, Randy Nickel (General) wrote:

> So what was the whole point. I am just wondering about options people
> are using with this ruling and if it sounds like I got it all right.

Hiya Randy,

I ignore those rules. I pretend those new cyberlimb rules were someone's
fevered hallucination.

It's sorta like that move-by-wire system... eurgh.

Deirdre M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | Marizhavashti Kali
"Whose religion is this?" "It's not a religion, it's a cult."
"Whose cult
is this?" "It's Hubbard's cult, baby." "Who's Hubbard?"
"Hubbard's dead,
baby. Hubbard's dead." -Meme-
Message no. 5
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Cyber limbs/torso
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 11:24:34 +0100
Marizhavashti Kali said on 26 Mar 96...

> It's sorta like that move-by-wire system... eurgh.

It's very good for those Mr/Ms/Mrs Corporate Strike Team Operative the
players have to face at one point or another in their careers... Should
make them nearly as fast as good-old Henny Huisman, erm, I mean a
certain high-force flesh form insect spirit that (who?) was part of a
strike team sent to a player's apartment while the PCs were having a meet
there.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
only the extreme makes an impression
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 6
From: Jonas Gabrielson <m94jga@*******.tdb.uu.se>
Subject: Re: Cyber limbs/torso
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 13:40:42 +0100 (MET)
On Tue, 26 Mar 1996, Marizhavashti Kali wrote:

> On Mon, 25 Mar 1996, Randy Nickel (General) wrote:
>
> > So what was the whole point. I am just wondering about options people
> > are using with this ruling and if it sounds like I got it all right.
>
> Hiya Randy,
>
> I ignore those rules. I pretend those new cyberlimb rules were someone's
> fevered hallucination.

I've always added some extra Essence loss to cyberlimbs with high
augmentation, for approximately the same reason as FASA mentions in CT
(i.e. high stress to the adjoining biological parts). I got the idea from
Torg: the Cyberpapacy (there's a cool concept...). Mind you, though, there
hasn't been much arm-chopping in my campaigns.

> It's sorta like that move-by-wire system... eurgh.

Move-By-Wire rules! I like the fact that you *have* to get level 4
in at least alpha-ware to survive the Essence Loss, increasing the price
to around 9,000,000! Then, you won't survive level 4 for any long time.
Moahahahahaaaa!!!! There's something so neat about giving the players new
"experimental" toys that will fry them in months!!!!

-Jonas Gabrielson, sadistic bugger
Message no. 7
From: Marizhavashti Kali <xenya@********.com>
Subject: Re: Cyber limbs/torso
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 11:23:06 -0800 (PST)
On Tue, 26 Mar 1996, Jonas Gabrielson wrote:

> I've always added some extra Essence loss to cyberlimbs with high
> augmentation, for approximately the same reason as FASA mentions in CT
> (i.e. high stress to the adjoining biological parts). I got the idea from
> Torg: the Cyberpapacy (there's a cool concept...). Mind you, though, there
> hasn't been much arm-chopping in my campaigns.

I don't care for it.

> > It's sorta like that move-by-wire system... eurgh.
> Move-By-Wire rules! I like the fact that you *have* to get level 4
> in at least alpha-ware to survive the Essence Loss, increasing the price
> to around 9,000,000! Then, you won't survive level 4 for any long time.
> Moahahahahaaaa!!!! There's something so neat about giving the players new
> "experimental" toys that will fry them in months!!!!

As long as the rules are used, I'm fine... But the first player to ask
for this didn't want to be subject to those rules.

Deirdre M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | Marizhavashti Kali
"Whose religion is this?" "It's not a religion, it's a cult."
"Whose cult
is this?" "It's Hubbard's cult, baby." "Who's Hubbard?"
"Hubbard's dead,
baby. Hubbard's dead." -Meme-
Message no. 8
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Cyber limbs/torso
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 18:13:13 -0600
>> It's sorta like that move-by-wire system... eurgh.

> Move-By-Wire rules! I like the fact that you *have* to get level 4
>in at least alpha-ware to survive the Essence Loss, increasing the price
>to around 9,000,000! Then, you won't survive level 4 for any long time.
>Moahahahahaaaa!!!! There's something so neat about giving the players new
>"experimental" toys that will fry them in months!!!!

Kinda makes sense to orks and trolls, who know they aren't going to live
that long and could definitely benefit short-term from something like
Move-by-wire. When all you've got is short-term, then you might as well
make the most of it. My troll covets move-by-wire (he just wants level 1,
and is something of a cyber-junkie).

The system is actually pretty good. I like it a LOT more than wired
reflexes (especially at the lower levels). The benefits are great, but the
penalties can be scary. All in all, as good a samurai toy as the cyberarm
gyromount.


------------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
------------------------------------------------------------
* With the speed of a striking cobra he pulled his machine *
* pistol and jammed the muzzle against Mozart's nose. "I *
* put my gun on rock and roll, there nothing left of you *
* but ears, man." -- "Mozart in Mirrorshades" *
------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 9
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Cyber limbs/torso
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 18:17:51 -0600
>[snipped stuff about MBW]
>As long as the rules are used, I'm fine... But the first player to ask
>for this didn't want to be subject to those rules.

Should make that stuff clear before us samurai-types start puffing out our
chests in reaction to nasty comments about our fave toys. ;)

Kinda scary that someone actually wanted to do that... I would've said
something along the lines of "You don't know of any side-effects of MBW and
the doctor explains the system is perfectly safe as he begins the
anesthesia." After all, how many shadow-types have dropped off because
their MBW acted up, and how many of those have actually documented the
reason for death? ;)


------------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
------------------------------------------------------------
* With the speed of a striking cobra he pulled his machine *
* pistol and jammed the muzzle against Mozart's nose. "I *
* put my gun on rock and roll, there nothing left of you *
* but ears, man." -- "Mozart in Mirrorshades" *
------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 10
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Cyber limbs/torso
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 19:08:41 -0600
>If I read this right a cyber arm on a human comes with a strength of
>(3), I can upgrade the arm to strength (6) with out additional essence
>loss. If I have characters though that have a strength of (6), and
>muscle replacement (4) they would have a strength of (10) and and the
>essence loss, assuming standard cyberware - no adjustments for
>surrgery, would be 5 (one for the arm and four for the muscle
>replacement four).

Nope, essence loss would be 4.2 because muscle replacement is 20% cheaper
for each cyberlimb present. You would also need to balance the arm up to a
10 strength, which means another 1.6 essence. So there's a 5.8 total bill
if none of it is custom and surgery goes regular.

>The Cyber arm does not seem quite as cool as it use to be (of course I
>could just be whining). Had I not gotten the arm and stuck with just
>muscle replacement I would save on essence and not have to worry about
>balancing. Now if getting a cyber torso, cuts the essence loss for
>increased strength mods on cyberarms that might make a differance, but
>I have not found any such ruling.

Page 37, Cybertechnology...
"The cybertorso also reduces by half (round up) the additional essence cost
of Strength and/or Quickness enhancements beyond 3 points. (See Limb
Enhancements, pg. 31, and Cyberware Rules, pg. 49)."

>So what was the whole point. I am just wondering about options people
>are using with this ruling and if it sounds like I got it all right.

You got it close to right, and yeah it isn't exactly essence or nuyen friendly.

My suggestion is get a cloned arm (if you need to get one at all) and pay to
have the muscle replacement redone in the new arm (which would be 20% of
regular cost, at no extra essence). Now, that last bit is just a sensible
linking of rules and is nowhere spelled out exactly like that, so take it as
you will.

Another choice would be to drop the muscle replacement and go with the
cybertorso and four limbs (5.5 essence). With those you can get up to 6
strength and quickness with no problem and add whatever extras you feel
like. Your body also goes up by 3. You can further increase body at a rate
even cheaper than strength or quickness and it doesn't add any essence ever.
You also get the option of adding soft or hard armor to the cybertorso.
Sure, you won't have that 10M punch like you did with the muscle rep (you'll
have an 8M) but you won't be hurt by anything short of an autocannon. The
price tag on this possibility is fairly staggering...

So what it boils down to is this, cyberlimbs cost a lot physically and
financially. They aren't very compatible witrh other toys, they aren't any
better at the start than an average limb. Bonus-wise, you can toy with
their stats a whole lot easier than you can with yours, reduced essence cost
for limb-implanted 'ware, LOTS of body, and armor.

Weigh the good and the bad and go the way you want. :)


------------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
------------------------------------------------------------
* With the speed of a striking cobra he pulled his machine *
* pistol and jammed the muzzle against Mozart's nose. "I *
* put my gun on rock and roll, there nothing left of you *
* but ears, man." -- "Mozart in Mirrorshades" *
------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 11
From: Benjamin <benjamin@*****.com>
Subject: Re: Cyber limbs/torso
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 17:20:09 PST
>Nope, essence loss would be 4.2 because muscle replacement is 20% cheaper
>for each cyberlimb present. You would also need to balance the arm up to a
>10 strength, which means another 1.6 essence. So there's a 5.8 total bill
>if none of it is custom and surgery goes regular.
This means you can get a NEGATIVE ESSENCE COST!

Cyber limbs:
arms
legs
torso
head

2 arms
+
2 legs
+
torso
+
head
=
6 limbs
*20=
120% off essence!

(delete two) YES!/OH NO!/Ooops.

--
Shiftboy (aka Benjamin Kercheval)
benjamin@*****.com (NOT whatever happenes to be in the From: line today)

Probably the world's only 14-year-old Weretiger PhysAd

no website
Message no. 12
From: "A. Blair Blackwell" <ab130f92@*******.adelphi.edu>
Subject: Re: Cyber limbs/torso
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 20:50:02 -0500
At 19:08 3/27/96 -0600, TpoCat wrote:

>Weigh the good and the bad and go the way you want. :)
^^^^^

Does anyone know or remeber who body translates into body weigh? Think about
how much more the limbs and torso would add. Climbing rope can carry the
weigh of a VW Bug. Will they be able to carry a Troll with the above mods?

Player: "My Troll climbs over the edge and starts down the wall."
GM: "He's at the bottom."
Player: "That was fast!?"
GM: "I know. Those ropes break way to easy." *Chuckle,Chuckle*

BLAIR
Message no. 13
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Cyber limbs/torso
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 21:51:11 -0600
>This means you can get a NEGATIVE ESSENCE COST!
>Cyber limbs:
>arms
>legs
>torso
>head
>
>2 arms
>+
>2 legs
>+
>torso
>+
>head
>=
>6 limbs
>*20=
>120% off essence!

Nope, head and torso don't count, sorry :)


------------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
------------------------------------------------------------
* With the speed of a striking cobra he pulled his machine *
* pistol and jammed the muzzle against Mozart's nose. "I *
* put my gun on rock and roll, there nothing left of you *
* but ears, man." -- "Mozart in Mirrorshades" *
------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 14
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Cyber limbs/torso
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 96 23:00:34 +1030
>>Nope, essence loss would be 4.2 because muscle replacement is 20% cheaper
>>for each cyberlimb present. You would also need to balance the arm up to a
>>10 strength, which means another 1.6 essence. So there's a 5.8 total bill
>>if none of it is custom and surgery goes regular.
>This means you can get a NEGATIVE ESSENCE COST!

*sigh* two lots of 20% off works like this:
First: 100% -> 80%.
Second: 80%->64%.
Happy?


--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************
Message no. 15
From: Jonas Gabrielson <m94jga@*******.tdb.uu.se>
Subject: Re: Cyber limbs/torso
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 11:32:59 +0100 (MET)
On Thu, 28 Mar 1996, Robert Watkins wrote:

> >>Nope, essence loss would be 4.2 because muscle replacement is 20% cheaper
> >>for each cyberlimb present. You would also need to balance the arm up to a
> >>10 strength, which means another 1.6 essence. So there's a 5.8 total bill
> >>if none of it is custom and surgery goes regular.
> >This means you can get a NEGATIVE ESSENCE COST!
>
> *sigh* two lots of 20% off works like this:
> First: 100% -> 80%.
> Second: 80%->64%.
> Happy?

No, I'm not happy. What you just thought up has no logic to it,
from my point of view. The way I understand this rule is that for every
cyberlimb you get (arms and legs only), the essence cost is reduced by 20%
of the original cost, i.e. with one limb, the cost is reduced to 80%, with
two limbs it's 60%, three limbs equal 40%, and a full four limbs reduce it
to 20% of the original cost. This is only logical, since every limb should
reduce the essence cost to an equal degree (namely, 20%). If you were to
take 80% out of 80%, it would mean that the second limb is actually
*smaller* or has less essence than the first, and frankly, that sounds
just zany.
Now, 20% might sound cheap, but remember that the strength
increase then applies to the torso and head only. All limbs have to
increase their strengths individually. The muscle replacement will apply
to average strength (or perhaps add half modified body strength to arms
at special instances, at GM's choice).
"Now, what if I add a cybertorso and a cybercranium?" someone
asks. Well, mister, I'd say you perhaps ought to let your brain out to
grazing. Think about it - a 100% metal body - where are you going to put
the muscle? The whole body is driven by pneumatics or whathaveyou - there
simply is no need or place for any sort of muscle, including the synthetic
kind. And for those who want to add only the cranium or only the body to
reduce the cost with 100%, I'd say that muscle implants in the head do not
have any mentionable effect (apart from the fact that there simply isn't
enough muscle to boost), and thus (1) cannot be bought separately (it's
probably included in the torso treatment), and (2) do not count as a
"limb" when reducing musce replacement essence cost. Summing it all up, a
person with all limbs cyber and a cybertorso cannot have muscle
replacement at all, and a person with four limbs and a cybercranium can
buy it at 20% of the normal essence cost.

I thought all this to be pretty obvious, but you kept on with
those inane remarks, so I just had to write this letter. Sorry if I have
insulted anyone, but I'm a bit upset, and it's not seriously meant.

-Jonas Gabrielson, about to get his first piece of cyber

Further Reading

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