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From:	NaCl(aq) jed7466@******.isc.rit.edu
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 09:44:35 -0400

Message no. 1 No, I don't mean 'cybermage' as in the variant on the otaku. I mean a
mage who has cyberware. I recently decided to try and make such a
character. My GM heard this and said 'oh, a burnout.' I was mildly
insulted. . .the character still has 4 points of magic, far from burning
out. But, anyway, this is the first character I've made mixing magic and
cyberware. I've never seen it done before, except for one example in SR3
or MiTS, with a .35 essence cybermage. I was just wondering if anyone
has seen or played a cybered-mage, and if they ( or anyone else ) had
suggestions for what to give him. Oh. . .and this is the strange part.
.. .I decided to make him a decker/mage :). Thanks in advance for your
suggestions.

--
NaCl(aq)
-------------
GCS(GAT) d>d-- s-:- a-->a? C++++ S E W+>W++ w PS? PE Y+ R+ tv-@ b+ DI+++
G e>e+++ h>h+ r--- !y+**

From:	Guido the Enforcer Guido_the_Enforcer@********.com
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 07:32:20 -0800 (PST)

Message no. 2 --- "NaCl(aq)" <jed7466@******.isc.rit.edu>
> wrote:
>No, I don't mean 'cybermage' as in the variant on the otaku. I mean a
>mage who has cyberware. I recently decided to try and make such a
>character. My GM heard this and said 'oh, a burnout.' I was mildly
>insulted. . .the character still has 4 points of magic, far from burning
>out. But, anyway, this is the first character I've made mixing magic and
>cyberware. I've never seen it done before, except for one example in SR3
>or MiTS, with a .35 essence cybermage. I was just wondering if anyone
>has seen or played a cybered-mage, and if they ( or anyone else ) had
>suggestions for what to give him. Oh. . .and this is the strange part.
>.. .I decided to make him a decker/mage :). Thanks in advance for your
>suggestions.

I did one of these, and she was by far my favorite character to date. I even went more
aggressive than you did, with only 2 essence left when I was done. When all was said and
done in that campaign she had been able to obtain the fourth level of initiation, had rid
herself of two geasa, and was pretty much a badass.

The key I learned was to take very specific spells that enhance performance even at a low
force. With low force and low drain you can spend most of your pool on the casting, and
suck up the drain with willpower alone. I had one spell above force 2 (treat, which works
exceptionally well when you take physical damage from casting it, and then just heal your
own wounds). For example, cat fall and darkness work well at low levels. Even
invisiblity increases those target numbers some at low level. By combining very minimal
spell effects and technology I was able to create somebody that had an answer for most
every situation. As an added note, you don't really need combat spells, a gun works just
fine for this kind of character. Just make sure you have a background that fits. That
was probably the hardest part of the character, writing something that made at least some
sense.

=
Guido the Enforcer
http://members.xoom.com/TCShadownode

"They say teaching sex education in the public schools will promote promiscuity.
With our educational system? If we promote promiscuity the same way we promote math or
science, they've got nothing to worry about!"

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From:	Strago strago@***.com
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 11:25:17 -0400

Message no. 3 "NaCl(aq)" wrote:

> No, I don't mean 'cybermage' as in the variant on the otaku. I mean a
> mage who has cyberware. I recently decided to try and make such a
> character. My GM heard this and said 'oh, a burnout.' I was mildly
> insulted. . .the character still has 4 points of magic, far from burning
> out.

OK, yes, I've made a few. I'm actually playing one in a PBEM. The other one
I made and is now sitting in obsolescence (he was an SR2 Character). One was
a Combat Mage, the other a mage in general.

> <SNIP>

> I was just wondering if anyone has seen or played a cybered-mage, and if
> they ( or anyone else ) had
> suggestions for what to give him. Oh. . .and this is the strange part...
> .I decided to make him a decker/mage :). Thanks in advance for your
> suggestions.
>

Well, having never played a decker, I really don't know what cyber they
require. I know for certain, a datajack is required. You might want some
headware memory. A smartlink (these things are must-haves for every
character I've created, even my phys-ads. The games I get to play in are
pretty damn violent) I'd also recommend. Like I said, I don't know what else
you need. Maybe either wired reflexes or boosted? I'd go for the boosted,
they cost less essence. My other suggestion (munchinkous though it may be)
is to keep stuffing things in until you get *.8 or *.9 (like 1.8 or 2.9 or
3.8) points of essence cost. It sucks to lose an entire point of Magic just
for cyberware that costs .2 essence. Add something to it that might be
useful. And remember, you can geas away the magic loss, though I'd suggest
only 1 or 2 geasa no matter how low you go in Essence.

>
> --
> NaCl(aq)
> -------------
> GCS(GAT) d>d-- s-:- a-->a? C++++ S E W+>W++ w PS? PE Y+ R+ tv-@ b+ DI+++
> G e>e+++ h>h+ r--- !y+**

--
--Strago

All Hail Apathy! Or don't. Whatever. -abortion_engine

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN+ SRFF W+ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++
d+) gm+ M P

From:	Drew Curtis dcurtis@***.net
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 12:43:41 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 4 On Tue, 25 Apr 2000, Guido the Enforcer wrote:

> The key I learned was to take very specific spells that enhance
> performance even at a low force. With low force and low drain you can
> spend most of your pool on the casting, and suck up the drain with
> willpower alone. I had one spell above force 2 (treat, which works
> exceptionally well when you take physical damage from casting it, and
> then just heal your own wounds).
>
I don't have it in front of me, but doesn't 3rd edition say under the
treat/heal definition that damage taken as a result of spellcasting can't
be healed?

Drew Curtis, President, Digital Crescent, Incorporated
http://www.dcr.net (502) 226 3376 Internet services.
Frankfort Lawrenceburg Shelbyville Owenton Louisville
http://www.fark.com: If it's not news, it's fark.

From:	dbuehrer@****.carl.org dbuehrer@****.carl.org
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 10:51:16 -0600

Message no. 5 Drew Curtis wrote:
>On Tue, 25 Apr 2000, Guido the Enforcer wrote:
>
> > The key I learned was to take very specific spells that enhance
> > performance even at a low force. With low force and low drain you can
> > spend most of your pool on the casting, and suck up the drain with
> > willpower alone. I had one spell above force 2 (treat, which works
> > exceptionally well when you take physical damage from casting it, and
> > then just heal your own wounds).
> >
>I don't have it in front of me, but doesn't 3rd edition say under the
>treat/heal definition that damage taken as a result of spellcasting can't
>be healed?

It does indeed say that (though I can't quote the page).

Also, the number of boxes healed by Treat/Heal is limited by the force of
the spell. So, a Force 2 Treat spell would only be able to heal up to 2
boxes of damage. That's fine if your teammates only take light wounds, but
doesn't do much if they take a serious or deadly wound.

Many of the spells in SR3 limit the number of successes to the Force of the
spell, so the trick of taking spells with a low Force doesn't work any more.

To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"Warm nights, good food, kindred spirits....great life!"

From:	baburabi baburabi@********.com
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 13:11:49 -0400

Message no. 6 > suggestions for what to give him. Oh. . .and this is the strange part.
> .. .I decided to make him a decker/mage :). Thanks in advance for your
> suggestions.

as far a cyber goes you can do what ever you want and not hurt your mage too
bad but the spells you want to use is the deciding factor the more cyber you
have the more you want to go with with low force but useful "utiliy" spells
....ie anything that depends on sucesses for to determine how good they work
not force

but as for the decker part if i recall doesnt it state in VR2 that the
magically active suffer a penality equal to their magic rating when decking

baburabi

From:	NaCl(aq) jed7466@******.isc.rit.edu
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 13:22:41 -0400

Message no. 7 baburabi wrote:

> as far a cyber goes you can do what ever you want and not hurt your mage too
> bad but the spells you want to use is the deciding factor the more cyber you
> have the more you want to go with with low force but useful "utiliy" spells
> ....ie anything that depends on sucesses for to determine how good they work
> not force
>
> but as for the decker part if i recall doesnt it state in VR2 that the
> magically active suffer a penality equal to their magic rating when decking
>
> baburabi

Thanks for the reminder to take spells that work if I get a success, and not
ones that are only good at high level. And AFAIK, magically active people only
suffer from not being able to use magic in the matrix, and that they need to
make a Willpower(10) test to go astral while jacked in. .. which isn't a
problem, since I'll be aspected and unable to project. But I don't have VR2.
Anyone know more?

--
NaCl(aq)
-------------
GCS(GAT) d>d-- s-:- a-->a? C++++ S E W+>W++ w PS? PE Y+ R+ tv-@ b+ DI+++ G
e>e+++ h>h+ r--- !y+**

From:	Drew Curtis dcurtis@***.net
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 13:32:09 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 8 On Tue, 25 Apr 2000, baburabi wrote:

> but as for the decker part if i recall doesnt it state in VR2 that the
> magically active suffer a penality equal to their magic rating when decking
>
This is correct

Drew Curtis, President, Digital Crescent, Incorporated
http://www.dcr.net (502) 226 3376 Internet services.
Frankfort Lawrenceburg Shelbyville Owenton Louisville
http://www.fark.com: If it's not news, it's fark.

From:	caelric@**.com caelric@**.com
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 10:39:38 -0700

Message no. 9 At 01:32 PM 4/25/00 -0400, you wrote:
>On Tue, 25 Apr 2000, baburabi wrote:
>
>> but as for the decker part if i recall doesnt it state in VR2 that the
>> magically active suffer a penality equal to their magic rating when decking
>>
>This is correct
>
Umm, no. That is a left over artifact from 1st Edition SR. Under SR3,
there is NO penalty for being magically active and decking, although trying
to go astral while decked in is pretty hard.

Dave

From:	Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 12:49:22 -0700

Message no. 10 I have played a cybernetically augmented mage in the past.
It's...interesting, although one must be careful with how one goes about
such things. :-)

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya

From:	Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 12:58:34 -0700

Message no. 11 baburabi wrote:
>
> but as for the decker part if i recall doesnt it state in VR2 that the
> magically active suffer a penality equal to their magic rating when decking

I've looked and looked for this, never found it. It was in VR1.

Is this in VR2? If so, where?

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya

From:	Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 16:03:10 -0400

Message no. 12 At 03:49 PM 4/25/00, Deirdre M. Brooks wrote:

>I have played a cybernetically augmented mage in the past.
>It's...interesting, although one must be careful with how one goes about
>such things. :-)

Read Ragnarok and check out Talon, Steve Kenson's character. Initiate mage
with a nice weapon foci and ally spirit, and still has some space for
cyberware. Headphone radio and tacom I think, maybe a few other small things.

Sommers
Aerospace engineers build weapon systems. Civil engineers build targets.

From:	Adam J adamj@*********.html.com
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:12:33 -0600

Message no. 13 At 12:58 4/25/00 -0700, Deirdre M. Brooks wrote:

>> but as for the decker part if i recall doesnt it state in VR2 that the
>> magically active suffer a penality equal to their magic rating when decking
>
>I've looked and looked for this, never found it. It was in VR1.
>
>Is this in VR2? If so, where?

It's not. Don't bother looking :)

Adam
< http://shadowrun.html.com/tss / adamj@*********.html.com / UIN 2350330>

From:	Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 13:38:30 -0700

Message no. 14 Sommers wrote:
>
> At 03:49 PM 4/25/00, Deirdre M. Brooks wrote:
>
> >I have played a cybernetically augmented mage in the past.
> >It's...interesting, although one must be careful with how one goes about
> >such things. :-)
>
> Read Ragnarok and check out Talon, Steve Kenson's character. Initiate mage
> with a nice weapon foci and ally spirit, and still has some space for
> cyberware. Headphone radio and tacom I think, maybe a few other small things.

Indeed.

Say, has anyone else tried "enchanted cyberware?" Like a cyberarm power
focus or a spur weapon focus? :-)

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya

From:	Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 13:46:04 -0700

Message no. 15 Adam J wrote:
>
> >I've looked and looked for this, never found it. It was in VR1.
> >
> >Is this in VR2? If so, where?
>
> It's not. Don't bother looking :)

Adam, I wouldn't bother looking unless I knew for certain that it was
there and if it was, where precisely it was. :-)

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya

From:	Lars Wagner Hansen l-hansen@*****.tele.dk
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 22:50:30 +0200

Message no. 16 ----- Original Message -----
From: NaCl(aq) <jed7466@******.isc.rit.edu>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2000 3:44 PM
Subject: Cybermage?

<Snip>

> I was just wondering if anyone
> has seen or played a cybered-mage, and if they ( or anyone else ) had
> suggestions for what to give him. Oh. . .and this is the strange part.
> .. .I decided to make him a decker/mage :). Thanks in advance for your
> suggestions.

Back in DNA/DOA one of the pre-made player characters (Andrew Shalene) was a
mage/decker, but without any cyberware, and decking the matrix as a
tortoise.

Lars
--
The solution to many problems lies in having somebody else do the work.
[Andrew S. Tanenbaum]
--
Lars Wagner Hansen mailto:l-hansen@*****.tele.dk
Jagtvej 11 http://home4.inet.tele.dk/l-hansen
DK-4180 Sorø phone +45 5783 5950
Denmark

From:	Grey metis76@*****.com
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:07:46 -0700 (PDT)

Message no. 17 <snip>
> > I was just wondering if anyone
> > has seen or played a cybered-mage, and if they (
> or anyone else ) had
> > suggestions for what to give him. Oh. . .and this
> is the strange part.
> > .. .I decided to make him a decker/mage :). Thanks
> in advance for your
> > suggestions.
>
> Back in DNA/DOA one of the pre-made player
> characters (Andrew Shalene) was a
> mage/decker, but without any cyberware, and decking
> the matrix as a
> tortoise.
>
> Lars

<snip>

One idea that I had was to use the Point System and
build an Otaku/Mage. Granted, your GM would have to
be giving you plenty of character points to play with,
because it would be 55-60 points before buying stats
or skills, but it could be done. It would really go
along with the whole Otaku being a magical matrix
runner theme too. What do you guys think?

Grey

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From:	Shadowrigg@*.com Shadowrigg@*.com
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 17:10:35 EDT

Message no. 18 In a message dated 04/25/2000 4:08:49 PM Central Daylight Time,
metis76@*****.com writes:

>
> One idea that I had was to use the Point System and
> build an Otaku/Mage. Granted, your GM would have to
> be giving you plenty of character points to play with,
> because it would be 55-60 points before buying stats
> or skills, but it could be done. It would really go
> along with the whole Otaku being a magical matrix
> runner theme too. What do you guys think?
>
> Grey

I didn't think Otaku could be mages or shamans....

From:	Phil pames@*****.net
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 16:34:31 -0500

Message no. 19 At 01:38 PM 4/25/2000 -0700, Deidre M. Brooks wrote:
>
>

>Say, has anyone else tried "enchanted cyberware?" Like a cyberarm power
>focus or a spur weapon focus? :-)
>

I think that's actually mentioned in M&M or MITS, IIRC. You CAN make a
cyberweapon weapon focus..but they have to be enchanted before
installation. Which seems to me to be fairly obvious, but that's what was
said.

Phil
I can only imagine some poor bastard trying it AFTER. "Okay, we're going to
pour one radical of molten orichalcum into your spur port..."

From:	Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 18:30:41 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 20 Grey <metis76@*****.com> writes:
> One idea that I had was to use the Point System and
> build an Otaku/Mage.

I thought that you could only take one magic pick, making this
illegal under vanilla rules. I always wanted to play a
Conjurer/Physad, but I can't. I can play half a magician and half a
physad using the Physical Magician rules, but that's not quite what
I'm looking for...

> What do you guys think?

I hate otaku. ;)

Seriously though, what would you want their magical abilities
to be, if you blow 20-30 more bp on their powers? They can already
project into, summon spirits in, and cast spells in the matrix,
according to how I view their abilities. There's no real Metamagic
analogue, but they already are "matrix shamans".

If you're talking about a character who is a standard magician
outside the matrix, and an otaku inside the matrix, I can see trying
to take 2 magic picks in order to try to fit it into the concept. I
don't like the concept though, especially as far as trying to come up
with a plausible background. (You'd have to be an adult mage/decker
who then became otaku, IMHO)

Mark

From:	Starrngr@*.com Starrngr@*.com
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 21:16:46 EDT

Message no. 21 In a message dated 4/25/2000 3:32:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
SHODAN+@***.EDU writes:

> If you're talking about a character who is a standard magician
> outside the matrix, and an otaku inside the matrix, I can see trying
> to take 2 magic picks in order to try to fit it into the concept. I
> don't like the concept though, especially as far as trying to come up
> with a plausible background. (You'd have to be an adult mage/decker
> who then became otaku, IMHO)
>
> Mark

I would disagree with that idea, Mark, as I think it might be possible, but
the other way around. The 'charecter' stared out as Otaku, but then had
their 'Magus factor' awaken... In fact, I could see a charecter like this as
a shaman, most likely Racoon or Cyote, as compared to a Hermetic.

--
Starrngr -- Ranger HQ
HTTP://home.talkcity.com/TheSanitarium/Da_Muck/

"You wear a Hawaiian shirt and bring your music on a RUN? No wonder they
call you Howling Mad..." -- Rabid the Pysad.

From:	NaCl(aq) jed7466@******.isc.rit.edu
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 21:35:30 -0400

Message no. 22 --Boundary_(ID_gLw9Q7sxdr0rXaJnBhSU3Q)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Phil wrote:

> At 01:38 PM 4/25/2000 -0700, Deidre M. Brooks wrote:
> >
> >
>
> >Say, has anyone else tried "enchanted cyberware?" Like a cyberarm power
> >focus or a spur weapon focus? :-)
> >
>
> I think that's actually mentioned in M&M or MITS, IIRC. You CAN make a
> cyberweapon weapon focus..but they have to be enchanted before
> installation. Which seems to me to be fairly obvious, but that's what was
> said.
>
>

Here is why no one has tried it:
Enchanting test target number:
Weapon focus (6)
+ Force, say
2
= +2
+ Object resistance ( Manufactured High-Tech Objects & Materials = +8
It won't be virgin or handmade, being cyberware, so no mods from that.
Three Alchemical
Radicals
= -4
Total
12

That's without orichalcum, which will reduce it one per unit, at 88,000 a unit.

Plus 16 karma to bond.
Plus the cost of the cyberware
Plus paying the enchanter.
Plus about 4 months of time.

This is why my enchantress with an ally spirit to make radicals for her never
got off the ground. (And yes, ally spirits can enchant ) It takes base time of
1 to 3 months for the formula, a month to make radicals ( 2 for orichalcum ),
then base time of a month to enchant something. Quite impossible to play as a
character. But oh, well, it is fun to try to break the new rules. :)

--
NaCl(aq)
-------------
GCS(GAT) d>d-- s-:- a-->a? C++++ S E W+>W++ w PS? PE Y+ R+ tv-@ b+ DI+++ G
e>e+++ h>h+ r--- !y+**

--Boundary_(ID_gLw9Q7sxdr0rXaJnBhSU3Q)
Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Phil wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>At 01:38 PM 4/25/2000 -0700, Deidre M. Brooks wrote:
 >
 >
>Say, has anyone else tried "enchanted cyberware?" Like a cyberarm
power
 >focus or a spur weapon focus? :-)
 >
I think that's actually mentioned in M&M or MITS, IIRC. You CAN
make a
 cyberweapon weapon focus..but they have to be enchanted before
 installation. Which seems to me to be fairly obvious, but that's what
was
 said.
  
  </blockquote>
Here is why no one has tried it:
 Enchanting test target
number:                                            
Weapon focus (6)
 + Force, say
2                                                                                        
= +2
 + Object resistance ( Manufactured High-Tech Objects &
Materials       
= +8
 It won't be virgin or handmade, being cyberware, so no mods from that.
 Three Alchemical
Radicals                                                                      
= -4
 Total                                                                                                       
12
That's without orichalcum, which will reduce it one per unit, at 88,000
a unit.
 Plus 16 karma to bond.
 Plus the cost of the cyberware
 Plus paying the enchanter.
 Plus about 4 months of time.
This is why my enchantress with an ally spirit to make radicals for
her never got off the ground. (And yes, ally spirits can enchant ) It takes
base time of 1 to 3 months for the formula, a month to make radicals (
2 for orichalcum ), then base time of a month to enchant something. Quite
impossible to play as a character. But oh, well, it is fun to try to break
the new rules. :)
  
--
 NaCl(aq)
 -------------
 GCS(GAT) d>d-- s-:- a-->a? C++++ S E W+>W++ w PS? PE Y+ R+ tv-@ b+
DI+++ G e>e+++ h>h+ r--- !y+**
  </html>

--Boundary_(ID_gLw9Q7sxdr0rXaJnBhSU3Q)--

From:	Guido the Enforcer Guido_the_Enforcer@********.com
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 19:14:19 -0800 (PST)

Message no. 23 --- Drew Curtis <dcurtis@***.net>
>I don't have it in front of me, but doesn't 3rd edition say under the
>treat/heal definition that damage taken as a result of spellcasting can't
>be healed?

Alas, she was a 2nd edition character.

=
Guido the Enforcer
http://members.xoom.com/TCShadownode

"They say teaching sex education in the public schools will promote promiscuity.
With our educational system? If we promote promiscuity the same way we promote math or
science, they've got nothing to worry about!"

-- Beverly Mickins

_____________________________________________________________
Get YourName@********.com email Today!
Visit http://www.93xrocks.com

From:	Patrick Bierlein prbierlein@******.com
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 22:33:32 -0400

Message no. 24 ----- Original Message -----
From: "Sommers" <sommers@*****.umich.edu>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2000 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: Cybermage?

> At 03:49 PM 4/25/00, Deirdre M. Brooks wrote:
>
> >I have played a cybernetically augmented mage in the past.
> >It's...interesting, although one must be careful with how one goes about
> >such things. :-)
>
> Read Ragnarok and check out Talon, Steve Kenson's character. Initiate mage
> with a nice weapon foci and ally spirit, and still has some space for
> cyberware. Headphone radio and tacom I think, maybe a few other small
things.

Yea, I just got done reading that and it's good. From what I remember he's
got an internal cell phone (encrypted), tacom, internal memory, chip jack
(used a German language chip a lot in the book), and a datajack. All of
these I don't think add to more than 2 or 3 essence, or am I wrong?
But then he's also a very powerful mage from what I've read of him in the
past. I'd say atleast a 3rd level initiate... if not higher.

Patrick

From:	Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 19:53:25 -0700

Message no. 25 Phil wrote:
>
> I think that's actually mentioned in M&M or MITS, IIRC. You CAN make a
> cyberweapon weapon focus..but they have to be enchanted before
> installation. Which seems to me to be fairly obvious, but that's what was
> said.

I've not read any of the 3rd ed books completely - except for Renraku
Shutdown. There's a lesson in that, I think.

Anyway, I'd expect that. It'd be somewhat cumbersome to enchant them
post-installation. :-)

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya

From:	Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 19:57:42 -0700

Message no. 26 "NaCl(aq)" wrote:
>
> This is why my enchantress with an ally spirit to make radicals for
> her never got off the ground. (And yes, ally spirits can enchant ) It
> takes base time of 1 to 3 months for the formula, a month to make
> radicals ( 2 for orichalcum ), then base time of a month to enchant
> something. Quite impossible to play as a character. But oh, well, it
> is fun to try to break the new rules. :)

That's what money from Shadowruns are for.

Although I think we did play through a period of enchanting. That was
amusing.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya

From:	Mik hangfire@*********.net.au
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 13:52:53 +1000

Message no. 27 Well, one of the longest-lived PC's i've played was a Wolf Shaman - Rigger.

played him for nearly 4 years all up....

he was fun, due to the inclination towards vehicles, including making a few
new spells to help him in his rigging pursuit :))

Mind you, a beserk shaman who is still rigging is NOT fun.

<grin> the funniest part was the spirits he summoned. They looked like the
creature on the cover of the Meatloaf "Bat out of hell" album.

half Wolf and half machine :))

Legion

----- Original Message -----
From: NaCl(aq) <jed7466@******.isc.rit.edu>

I've never seen it done before, except for one example in SR3
> or MiTS, with a .35 essence cybermage. I was just wondering if anyone
> has seen or played a cybered-mage, and if they ( or anyone else ) had
> suggestions for what to give him. Oh. . .and this is the strange part.
> .. .I decided to make him a decker/mage :). Thanks in advance for your
> suggestions.
> --
> NaCl(aq)

From:	Drew Curtis dcurtis@***.net
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 12:59:05 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 28 On Tue, 25 Apr 2000 caelric@****.com wrote:

> At 01:32 PM 4/25/00 -0400, you wrote:
> >On Tue, 25 Apr 2000, baburabi wrote:
> >
> >> but as for the decker part if i recall doesnt it state in VR2 that the
> >> magically active suffer a penality equal to their magic rating when decking
> >>
> >This is correct
> >
> Umm, no. That is a left over artifact from 1st Edition SR. Under SR3,
> there is NO penalty for being magically active and decking, although trying
> to go astral while decked in is pretty hard.
>
Sorry I read that completely backwards, I meant that the penalty no longer
exists.

Drew Curtis, President, Digital Crescent, Incorporated
http://www.dcr.net (502) 226 3376 Internet services.
Frankfort Lawrenceburg Shelbyville Owenton Louisville
http://www.fark.com: If it's not news, it's fark.

From:	Wavy Davy ctysmd@***.leeds.ac.uk
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Fri, 28 Apr 2000 11:49:41 +0100 (BST)

Message no. 29 [please 'scuse the late reply - uni has been closed over Easter]

On Tue, 25 Apr 2000, NaCl(aq) wrote:

> mage who has cyberware. I recently decided to try and make such a
> character. My GM heard this and said 'oh, a burnout.' I was mildly

I have found this to be prevailent in FASA's attitude to
this concept - either you're a serious mage or you're burnout, with no
middle ground. It can clearly be seen in their attitude towards,
geasa and such like - if you don't take one, you're "on the path to
burning out" for example. I find this highly unlikley.
As has been said, most folks in 2060 would have datajacks, headphones
and the like and the magic/tech crossover is one of the best parts about
shadowrun, IMHO, and cyberware shouldn't be viewed in such a negative
way. I have been pondering about three 'schools of
thought' about cyberware for the Awakended in SR

1. 'Pureism' - these folks are dead against having any cyberware
themselves (and may be against it full stop). For a hermetic, it may
be that they are dedicated to their Art and to improve their
understanding and ability to wield magic and cyberware would seriously
reduce this. This would work well with academic style characters.
For a shamen, particulary a wilderness one, they may regard cyberware
as ruining their connection with nature or their totem. On the other
hand, and urban shamen might feel it would improve his connection...
[interesting side thought - a 'Technology' totem, anyone?]
Adeps could fall into this 'school', particularly Artist, Invisible and
Spirit Ways.

2. 'Realism' - These guys would accept two things - that cyberware is a
neccesary part of life, and that it does them no good to squander
their natural Talent, and so will accept a limited amount of
cyberware. They don't want to lose their natural ability but
recognise a few mods can help them in their everyday lives. This
particulary true of corporate wage mages, I would think, especially
researchers. Magical researchers is would benefit from items like
datajacks, Maths SPU's, Encephalons and Cerebral Enhancments
and such like. Urban Shamens may take this approach,
especially if their totem is a more 'modern' one. Military/
Security trained adepts/mages/shamens may take this view, as you gotta
have an edge to survive. No more than a point or 2 of essence loss in
general.

2. 'Enthusiasm' - The folks in this came are pro-technology
enthusiasts. They may be involved in cutting edge research with melding
magic and science, or they may want to enhance their other
(non-magical) skills and be more of a generalist, or they may want to
be the most powerful they can possibly be, maybe with some driving
ambition in mind. They may suffer magically, but they are willing to
pay the cost for the benefitrs recieved. This is they most diverse
group, as the reasons for modifying your bod can be very different.
These guys could have 3 or more points of essence loss, and do need to
watch out for burnout.

I wrote this stuff out of a creating a chaos mage who uses
chaos maths to control magic, and computers and elementals to model
and research chaos theory. He is a technophobe and I was trying to
consider what if any cyberware I should give him. This put me in
conflict with my interpretation on FASA's attitude to this and this
was the result. Anyone care to disagree/agree/flame/laugh
idiotically/smile, pat my head and say 'there, there'/shake your head at
the folly of youth/buy me a drink/go and create a cybermage cos you're
inspired(!)/burn my deck and fry my meat body or whatever, feel free,
the floor's yours :)

--
Wavy Davy (who shares wins)
...When you first start wearing a turban, probably the most common mistake is
wrapping it too tight. You have to allow the head to breathe.

From:	Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Fri, 28 Apr 2000 21:39:14 +1000

Message no. 30 -----Original Message-----
From: Wavy Davy <ctysmd@***.leeds.ac.uk>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Friday, April 28, 2000 8:52 PM
Subject: Re: Cybermage?

>[please 'scuse the late reply - uni has been closed over Easter]
>
>On Tue, 25 Apr 2000, NaCl(aq) wrote:
>
>> mage who has cyberware. I recently decided to try and make such a
>> character. My GM heard this and said 'oh, a burnout.' I was mildly
>
> I have found this to be prevailent in FASA's attitude to
> this concept - either you're a serious mage or you're burnout, with no
> middle ground. It can clearly be seen in their attitude towards,
> geasa and such like - if you don't take one, you're "on the path to
> burning out" for example. I find this highly unlikley.
> As has been said, most folks in 2060 would have datajacks, headphones
> and the like and the magic/tech crossover is one of the best parts about
> shadowrun, IMHO, and cyberware shouldn't be viewed in such a negative
> way. I have been pondering about three 'schools of
> thought' about cyberware for the Awakended in SR
>

You know, before this thread, I hadn't even considered the advantages of the
cybermage. The brainwashing is very prevalent throughout the books since the
first edition, and I bet a lot of writers hadn't realised either. I think
this is an artefact of Shadowrun being a trailblazer in that before SR,
every game was in classes. You were a mage or a fighter or a thief, with
little real compromise. With Shadowrun you were basically this guy, and it
was the skills/cyber you bought later that made you what you were, and you
could make any combination. But mages were different, they were mages from
the start, the only real character class in Shadowrun. It seems dirty to mix
them with the other types. Of course my mage now will be getting cyber as
soon as I work out the most economical strength enhancers.

I do disagree with the concept that everyone has cyber. This is only a
personal view and I am not looking to argue, my world view should not
interfere with yours, but I would like to show the other side. I think that
the common man would not get cyber if he did not need it. There would be the
corp 'Up the ziggurat lickety split' types who would get all the telecom
cyberware to stay on the cutting edge, and cybereyes would be a common
visual correction device, but for the man on the street, the idea of having
surgery just so you always have a phone would be pretty disgusting. Look at
cosmetic surgery. Facelifts and such are simple and easy, but most people
will not do it, even if they can afford it. There is enough demand to drive
the market, but you could walk the streets all day without meeting a woman
with silicon breasts .

There is one real advantage to the sixth world. With headphones and ally
spirits, you can be a crazy old man wandering the streets talking to
yourself all day and still get a seat in a cafe :?)

From:	NaCl(aq) jed7466@******.isc.rit.edu
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Fri, 28 Apr 2000 09:46:15 -0400

Message no. 31 Simon and Fiona wrote:

<SNIP>

>
> There is enough demand to drive the market, but you could walk the streets all
> day without meeting a woman with silicon breasts .

<SNIP>
You can? ;)
On a side note, as I was looking a various pieces of 'ware, I noticed it's
possible to give an aspected mage a faster reaction in astral space than a true
astral being. So I looked a little deeper, and realized you can give a magician
some really high initiative with no 'ware at all. It's really sick, and I don't
think it can quite be done using priorities for a starting character.
First: Max out Int and Quick to six.
Second: Initiate w/group and ordeal ( 9 spell points ), get Quickening
Third: Get the spells Increase Attribute ( Int ), Increase Attribute ( Quick ),
Increase Reaction, Increase Reflexes + 3 at force 6 for all of them ( total: 24
spell points ).
Fourth: Quicken all 4 spells at character creation, saying you're using max.
spell pool and keep trying until you get all successes. This will give you Quick
and Int of 12. This makes your reaction 12, + six for the spell = 18. Plus 4d6
from the Reflexes spell. This gives 18+ 4d6 = 24 to 42. Compared to 26 to 32 for
an astral being with Int 6.

But that's 57 spell points, a few too many. Oh, well. And it would get really
sick if you got Int/ Quick enhancing cyberware, but less than a point worth, so
you'd only loose the point of magic from initiation. Of course, that would
change the spells from Inc. Attribute to Inc. Cybered Attribute. Very very sick,
but the coolness value of being able to run circles around astral beings while
only looking into the astral has got to be fun. :)

Well, that's all the rambling you get for now.
--
NaCl(aq)
-------------
GCS(GAT) d>d-- s-:- a-->a? C++++ S E W+>W++ w PS? PE Y+ R+ tv-@ b+ DI+++ G
e>e+++ h>h+ r--- !y+**

From:	Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Fri, 28 Apr 2000 12:00:40 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 32 Wavy Davy <ctysmd@***.leeds.ac.uk> writes:
> [please 'scuse the late reply - uni has been closed over Easter]
> On Tue, 25 Apr 2000, NaCl(aq) wrote:
> > mage who has cyberware. I recently decided to try and make such a
> > character. My GM heard this and said 'oh, a burnout.' I was mildly
>
> I have found this to be prevailent in FASA's attitude to
> this concept - either you're a serious mage or you're burnout, with no
> middle ground. It can clearly be seen in their attitude towards,
> geasa and such like - if you don't take one, you're "on the path to
> burning out" for example. I find this highly unlikley.

That bothered em as well. I believe that this is no longer
the case with geasa. I think it is mentioned that it is more
difficult to find a magical group that accepts geasa, but it's not as
bad as it used to be.
I always saw three paths, personally. First, there's the
burnout, who will probably lose their magic eventually. Second,
there's the serious mage you describe. Third, there's the mage that
could fall into your category 3, Enthusiasm, but is sufficiently
generalized that I consider them unlikely to initiate.
When I create characters, I usually have a good idea of
whether I think they consider their magic important enough that they'd
try to improve it instead of using it to supplement. So far, I think
that the deciding factor has been the Smartgun Link. For me, that's
pretty much been a good litmus test to see whether magic is primary or
secondary to the character, though I didn't realize it until today.
For me, these characters might pick up a new spell here and there,
improve a magic skill occasionally (but is more likely to improve
Willpower or something more general), but is unlikely to sit down and
spend a lot of time solely improving their magic, which is how I view
looking for a magical group and initiation. However, they're very
interested in preserving what magic they have left. (sometimes the
full 6 points)

> I wrote this stuff out of a creating a chaos mage who uses
> chaos maths to control magic, and computers and elementals to model
> and research chaos theory. He is a technophobe and I was trying to
> consider what if any cyberware I should give him.

If he's a technophobe, I can't see him getting any cyberware
willingly, or using a computer to work on chaos theory. I can't
figure out how technophobe can mesh with your computer-based research,
let alone any cyberware implantation. Can you describe this
technophobia? It's clearly different than my view of it.

Mark

From:	Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Fri, 28 Apr 2000 12:10:20 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 33 "NaCl(aq)" <jed7466@******.isc.rit.edu> writes:
> On a side note, as I was looking a various pieces of 'ware, I noticed it's
> possible to give an aspected mage a faster reaction in astral space
> than a true
> astral being. So I looked a little deeper, and realized you can give
> a magician
> some really high initiative with no 'ware at all. It's really sick,
> and I don't
> think it can quite be done using priorities for a starting character.

> Second: Initiate w/group and ordeal ( 9 spell points ), get Quickening

You can't initiate as a starting character, as they start with
no karma.

> Fourth: Quicken all 4 spells at character creation, saying you're using max.
> spell pool and keep trying until you get all successes.

I know of very few GMs that would allow this. I just did some
quick calculations... If they're being generous and let you attempt
each spell once per second, with no stops to rest, eat, or pay rent,
it'll take you an average of 35 game years in order to acheive all
successes (less with judicious use of karma pool) on any particular
spell. I hope you're an IE that is very skilled at resisting drain!

Mark

From:	NaCl(aq) jed7466@******.isc.rit.edu
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Fri, 28 Apr 2000 12:29:40 -0400

Message no. 34 Mark A Shieh wrote:

>
> You can't initiate as a starting character, as they start with
> no karma.
>
>

Ah, then how do magicians start with bonded foci or ally spirits? According to
SR3, they can use spell points as karma points for this purpose. . .wouldn't that
generalize into 'one spell point = one karma point during creation for magical
things'?

>
> I know of very few GMs that would allow this. I just did some
> quick calculations... If they're being generous and let you attempt
> each spell once per second, with no stops to rest, eat, or pay rent,
> it'll take you an average of 35 game years in order to acheive all
> successes (less with judicious use of karma pool) on any particular
> spell. I hope you're an IE that is very skilled at resisting drain!
>

Oh, yeah, forgot it's hard to hit 12 sixes 4 times. . . .

--
NaCl(aq)
-------------
GCS(GAT) d>d-- s-:- a-->a? C++++ S E W+>W++ w PS? PE Y+ R+ tv-@ b+ DI+++ G
e>e+++
h>h+ r--- !y+**

From:	Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Fri, 28 Apr 2000 17:45:46 GMT

Message no. 35 >Say, has anyone else tried "enchanted cyberware?" Like a cyberarm power
>focus or a spur weapon focus? :-)

No but picture this; if its possible to enchant tatoo ink for qucikening
spells it would not be too implausable to have a tatoo all along the magical
character's arms that work like a weapon focus for unarmed combat.

Phil
________________________________________________________________________
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From:	Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Fri, 28 Apr 2000 17:53:08 GMT

Message no. 36 Original message
>From: Shadowrigg@***.com
>Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.com
>To: shadowrn@*********.com
>Subject: Re: Cybermage?
>Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 17:10:35 EDT
>
>In a message dated 04/25/2000 4:08:49 PM Central Daylight Time,
>metis76@*****.com writes:
>
> >
> > One idea that I had was to use the Point System and
> > build an Otaku/Mage. Granted, your GM would have to
> > be giving you plenty of character points to play with,
> > because it would be 55-60 points before buying stats
> > or skills, but it could be done. It would really go
> > along with the whole Otaku being a magical matrix
> > runner theme too. What do you guys think?
> >
> > Grey
>
>I didn't think Otaku could be mages or shamans....
>
>

They can't; VR 2 pg144. Besides both character types need masses of karma
to do what they do.
Phil

________________________________________________________________________
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From:	Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Fri, 28 Apr 2000 13:33:51 -0500

Message no. 37 On Fri, 28 Apr 2000 12:10:20 -0400 (EDT) Mark A Shieh <SHODAN+@***.EDU>
writes:
<SNIP>
> You can't initiate as a starting character, as they start
> with
> no karma.
<SNIP>

Page 15 SR3Co: "In addition to the standard uses for Spell Points during
character creation, gamemasters may allow player characters to use Spell
Points in place of Karma Points in order to begin the game as an initiate
..."

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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From:	Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Fri, 28 Apr 2000 16:27:55 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 38 Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.com> writes:
> Page 15 SR3Co: "In addition to the standard uses for Spell Points during
> character creation, gamemasters may allow player characters to use Spell
> Points in place of Karma Points in order to begin the game as an initiate
> ..."

Thanks for the quote! At least it has to be self-initiation
though, right? Quick poll: Do GMs 'round here actually use this rule?

<sigh> Never thought I'd be saying this, but I'm starting to
miss SR2. Starting characters with alpha-grade cyberware and bioware
was bad enough... <shakes head sadly>

Mark

From:	caelric@**.com caelric@**.com
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Fri, 28 Apr 2000 14:22:58 -0700

Message no. 39 At 04:27 PM 4/28/00 -0400, you wrote:
>
> <sigh> Never thought I'd be saying this, but I'm starting to
>miss SR2. Starting characters with alpha-grade cyberware and bioware
>was bad enough... <shakes head sadly>
>
>Mark

Honestly, What is so bad about it? If you have a decent GM, he'll just
make the challenges that much more difficult. As long as all the
characters are more or less equal, it shouldn't be a problem. So the one
guy starts out initiated because he has spent force points on karma. Ok,
but then he will have fewer spells to throw around, thus making him a less
versataile, and thus less useful character, evening it out in the long run.

So maybe his character concept is an older person, not so quick on his feet
anymore, but somewhat wise and knowledgable. He uses the point creation
system from SRCo, spending little on attributes, especcially physical, and
many on force points for karma to initiate twice and perhaps summon an ally
spirit, bond a focus or two. I don't see a problem with this. It will all
even out.

The same with the guy who takes A priority in order to buy lots of cultured
bioware and alpha grade cyberware. He won't have as high skills or
attributes as he could have had. Once again, it all evens out.

Finally, if, as a GM, you see someone has exploited a loophole to gain
unfair advantage, then.....don' allow it. It's not that hard to say no.
In fact, my GM just said no to something I thought was more or less
reasonable(cash for karma, so I could initiate sooner to buy that astral
perception since no character in our group has any form of astralness, I
thought it would help), and I don't plan on throwing a temper tantrum, or
shooting some postal emplyees, or even being upset. I'll still enjoy the
game. And if one of your players does do one of the above when you say no,
then, well, maybe it's time to find new players...

Dave

From:	caelric@**.com caelric@**.com
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Fri, 28 Apr 2000 14:27:20 -0700

Message no. 40 A related question to the cybermage:

I know what the rules state on this, I don't want to know the rules, I
would more like to hear opinions and house rules.

If I, as a spellcaster (I mean my character when I say 'I'), take say .5
points of bioware, and .2 points of cyberware (a datajack for example), the
rules state that I have lost one magic point for the cyberware, and another
magic point is inaccessible due to the bioware (see virtual magic rating
rules in M&M) This is an effective loss of two magic points, since I
decided to mix cyber and bioware, even though the total cyber+bio index is
only .7, for example.

So, what about a house rule to say you add up the total indices (bio +
cyber) and round up the total for the number of magic points lost?

What thoughts are there on this?

Dave

From:	Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Fri, 28 Apr 2000 14:29:59 -0700

Message no. 41 Mark A Shieh wrote:
>
> <sigh> Never thought I'd be saying this, but I'm starting to
> miss SR2. Starting characters with alpha-grade cyberware and bioware
> was bad enough... <shakes head sadly>

What's wrong with starting initiation or alpha-grade cyberware?

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya

From:	Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Fri, 28 Apr 2000 17:10:38 -0500

Message no. 42 On Fri, 28 Apr 2000 16:27:55 -0400 (EDT) Mark A Shieh <SHODAN+@***.EDU>
writes:
> Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.com> writes:
<SNIP>
> Thanks for the quote! At least it has to be self-initiation
> though, right?

Doesn't say.

> Quick poll: Do GMs 'round here actually use this
> rule?

Yes.

> <sigh> Never thought I'd be saying this, but I'm starting to
> miss SR2. Starting characters with alpha-grade cyberware and
> bioware
> was bad enough... <shakes head sadly>

Page 21 SRCo (2nd Edition): "In addition to the standard uses for Force
Points during character creation, gamemasters may allow player characters
to use Force Points in place of Karma Points in order to begin the game
as an initiate..."

What is it that you miss about 2nd edition?

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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From:	Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Fri, 28 Apr 2000 21:22:57 -0500

Message no. 43 From: Mark A Shieh
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2000 3:28 PM

> > Page 15 SR3Co: "In addition to the standard uses for Spell Points
> > during character creation, gamemasters may allow player characters
> > to use Spell Points in place of Karma Points in order to begin the
> > game as an initiate ..."
>
> Thanks for the quote! At least it has to be self-initiation
> though, right?

There's nothing specific mentioned about it, as I recall, but that *is* how
I interpret that rule.

> Quick poll: Do GMs 'round here actually use this rule?

Yeah, though no one locally has ever bothered using it. I don't think it's
nearly the big issue you think it is. YMMV.

> <sigh> Never thought I'd be saying this, but I'm starting to
> miss SR2. Starting characters with alpha-grade cyberware and
> bioware was bad enough... <shakes head sadly>

I don't remember anything saying they could start with bio, though I allow
it for my experienced players (the ones I know aren't gonna twink on me). I
personally don't see a problem here, either, since only one of my players in
the past year and a half of the campaign have chosen anything alpha-grade,
and *that* was just a datajack, a pair of cybereyes, and a smartlink (he was
a mage, and wanted to minimize the impact to his Magic while still getting
some convenience out of the tech).

James' most recent character got a small amount of bioware at startup.

I'll admit it could be abused, but not if the GM is cautious. Again, and as
always, YMMV.

--
Patrick E. Goodman
remo@***.net
"I'm going to tell you something cool." -- Gene Wolfe

From:	Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Sat, 29 Apr 2000 03:30:01 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 44 Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.com> writes:
> Page 21 SRCo (2nd Edition): "In addition to the standard uses for Force
> Points during character creation, gamemasters may allow player characters
> to use Force Points in place of Karma Points in order to begin the game
> as an initiate..."
>
> What is it that you miss about 2nd edition?

Argh! <fumes> I think the version in *both* of my copies of
the SRCo actually reads "...gamemasters [in my gaming group] may[,
when pigs fly,]..." and the entire paragraph in both SRCos is
routinely skipped.

my bad.

To reply to the other posters in this thread:

I like it when a starting character doesn't start with the
good stuff. Starting SR characters have always struck me as being
reasonable skilled and competent, but not all that powerful. The
Rating 6/Avail 8/no alpha/no bio/no initiate restrictions that we use
match my view of the SR world and the average runner very well. It's
a subjective taste thing, obviously. I'd have a much easier time with
Alpha grade cyberware if I had been able to find something saying that
it was harder to find (Avail/time), like there is with Beta grade and
cultured bio.
95% of the campaigns I've seen and run involve PCs that were
built using priorities or 100(SR2)/120(SR3)bp... I think it's better
when alpha grade 'ware isn't the norm (has been for us ever since
SR3), initiates are pretty rare (I've never run into a PC with a grade
higher than 1(SR2)/2(SR3) with one of my PCs), etc. in a standard
power level campaign. I just like the power level that this
generation system produces, and I'm not looking forward to starting
initiates. I feel that SR3 is suffering from power creep, that's all.
I don't really buy the argument that it's just 10 years of
SOTA. If it's 10 years of SOTA, why hasn't older cyberware gotten any
cheaper or easier to find? spell formula? communications devices?
security devices? etc.

I am *so* glad our Conjurer adept didn't go for initiation.
It seems like a gimme to spend your 35fp on two initiation grades
unless you're buying foci, and I don't like automatic purchases. I do
admit that my magicians do tend to have high values (around 6) in
Willpower and Sorcery, and it's been 7 years since I've had a
character without some form of Etiquette at at least 3, so it is a
little hypocritical of me to complain about automatic selections, but
I do like to see them minimized.

Sorry, didn't mean for my personal SR power level preferences
to turn into a big rant.

Mark

From:	Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Sat, 29 Apr 2000 09:07:06 GMT

Message no. 45 > Thanks for the quote! At least it has to be self-initiation
>though, right? Quick poll: Do GMs 'round here actually use this rule?
>
Yup, if the player wants it that badly. What I'm not sure about is how
learning metamagic is worked into this; it does not cost karma. Any ideas?

I have also heard of a rule that allows aspected magicians to start at grade
1 if they take magic at priority A which makes sense.

Phil

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From:	Wavy Davy ctysmd@***.leeds.ac.uk
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Sat, 29 Apr 2000 16:24:15 +0100 (BST)

Message no. 46 On Fri, 28 Apr 2000, Mark A Shieh wrote:

> If he's a technophobe, I can't see him getting any cyberware
> willingly, or using a computer to work on chaos theory. I can't
> figure out how technophobe can mesh with your computer-based research,
> let alone any cyberware implantation. Can you describe this
> technophobia? It's clearly different than my view of it.
>

*cough*cough* erm sorry typo - I ment 'technophile' but I'm obviously a
retarded cripple who can't type or read properly even though I proof
read it twice. ho hum :)

--
Wavy Davy (who shares wins)
...Instead of burning a guy at the stake, what about burning him at the
stilts? It probably lasts longer, plus it moves around.

From:	Wavy Davy ctysmd@***.leeds.ac.uk
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Sat, 29 Apr 2000 17:11:28 +0100 (BST)

Message no. 47 On Fri, 28 Apr 2000, Simon and Fiona wrote:

> You know, before this thread, I hadn't even considered the advantages of the
> cybermage. The brainwashing is very prevalent throughout the books since the
> first edition, and I bet a lot of writers hadn't realised either. I think
> this is an artefact of Shadowrun being a trailblazer in that before SR,
> every game was in classes. You were a mage or a fighter or a thief, with
> little real compromise. With Shadowrun you were basically this guy, and it
> was the skills/cyber you bought later that made you what you were, and you
> could make any combination. But mages were different, they were mages from
> the start, the only real character class in Shadowrun. It seems dirty to mix
> them with the other types. Of course my mage now will be getting cyber as
> soon as I work out the most economical strength enhancers.

In Runequest you can be whatever, although you would probably
specialise if you want to be good at something, like in SR. For
example if you want to be really good with vehicles, you need to
invest cash and essence in a VCR, which precludes you from being
really good at magic or combat. If you wanted to be average
you could just get a datajack and have good skill (Or you you could get
a level 0 VCR (house rule) that gives the same benfits as a datajack
and gives acces to a control pool equal to Reaction, 5000 nuyen, 0.5
essence - any comments :) Any way my point - Not just SR has open
characters.

> I do disagree with the concept that everyone has cyber. This is only a
> personal view and I am not looking to argue, my world view should not
> interfere with yours, but I would like to show the other side. I think that
> the common man would not get cyber if he did not need it. There would be the
> corp 'Up the ziggurat lickety split' types who would get all the telecom
> cyberware to stay on the cutting edge, and cybereyes would be a common
> visual correction device, but for the man on the street, the idea of having
> surgery just so you always have a phone would be pretty disgusting. Look at
> cosmetic surgery. Facelifts and such are simple and easy, but most people
> will not do it, even if they can afford it. There is enough demand to drive
> the market, but you could walk the streets all day without meeting a woman
> with silicon breasts.

Most folks in the SR world IMHO are the corporate types who will get a
datajack, etc. The magical types obviously may not, but the average
corporate wage slave will probably want to get every advantage they
can, megacorps being the cut throat emplyers that they are.

As for the average non-runner SINless person, say a gang member,
cyberware (obvious stuff) implies cred which boosts reputation. S I
recons a lorra folks going under the knife.

A quick stab in the dark at figures in say, Seattle

Corporate Population - 70%
- Percentage with some cyber - 80%

SINless - 30%
- percentage with some cyber - 50%

Giving total percentage of 71% cybered evern if just a datajack
Bioware would be much much less, I think.

These are guesses obviously, and fit into my SR world view, YMMV

One of my big differences with the FASA SR world view is society's
attitude towards cyberware - but see my next post if you're
interested by that.

> There is one real advantage to the sixth world. With headphones and ally
> spirits, you can be a crazy old man wandering the streets talking to
> yourself all day and still get a seat in a cafe :?)

This is happening noadays, in my experience. These 'hands free'
mobile phone kits are most amusing. Not only can people now air their
arguments and other dirty secrets to anyone around them, but they can
now do it in a way that makes them appear bonkers.
Just watch people express what they say with their hands to a person
miles a way. Tickles my goat, anyway :)

--
Wavy Davy (who shares wins)
...Instead of burning a guy at the stake, what about burning him at the
stilts? It probably lasts longer, plus it moves around.

From:	Manolis Skoulikas great_worm@*****.com
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Sat, 29 Apr 2000 22:15:05 +0300

Message no. 48 NaCl(aq) wrote:
>
> I was just wondering if anyone
> has seen or played a cybered-mage, and if they ( or anyone else ) had
> suggestions for what to give him. Oh. . .and this is the strange part.
> .. .I decided to make him a decker/mage :). Thanks in advance for your
> suggestions.
>

Apart from cyber eyes that can definetely enhance targeting
(thermographic and electromafnification is a must)
I always go for RANGEFINDER!!!

You think I am crazy?
Overindulgent?
Cyberfreak?
Hardcore Technofile?

Non of the above!
Just a littly munchkiny...

If you don't have the appropriate ''...bolt'' spell you end up using
the appropriate ''...ball'' spell. This is really messy in tight
situations. You can target your own compadres and end up toast
yourself by your own spell.
If you know the exact area of effect of your spell you can tailor it
to hit EXACTLY where you want it to hit and end up saving the day
in the chaotic world our characters live in.
You can use barriers offensively against grenades or fast moving
vehicles, and you can combine it with timer and a pocket computer
to calculate speeds. Also knowing the distance for the jump or the
fall is always handy (or not :) )...

Pain editor is also a must if you are a heavy spellslinger.

To fill up those 0.4 bio index points get mnemonic enhancer.
You can always use the karma if you're a mage!!!

I recently enchanted a force 6 monofilament whip weapon focus.
It took me a lot of preparation and a lot of orichalcum circulations
but it was worth it! I use it in a finger tip compartment that I
can always swap. The focus compartement is stashed on my person when
anyone tries to scan me (airports etc.) and is always CONCEALED
(as in spirit power Concealement) by my free spirit buddy 'Red'
Check this out If I have used my action and somebody surpises me
by attacking me in hand to hand combat, I surpise him back by getting
the monofilament out and giving him a run for his money. If it was
not in afingertip compartement, Iwould not be able to do that, as
it would require a simple action (ready weapon) that is not permitted
aout of initiative phase. But with a cyber ware implant, it is a
free action (activate cyberware) and I can make one every initiative
phase after my first pass!

The Wiz.

From:	Manolis Skoulikas great_worm@*****.com
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Sat, 29 Apr 2000 22:15:08 +0300

Message no. 49 caelric@****.com wrote:
>
> A related question to the cybermage:
>
> I know what the rules state on this, I don't want to know the rules, I
> would more like to hear opinions and house rules.
>
> If I, as a spellcaster (I mean my character when I say 'I'), take say .5
> points of bioware, and .2 points of cyberware (a datajack for example), the
> rules state that I have lost one magic point for the cyberware, and another
> magic point is inaccessible due to the bioware (see virtual magic rating
> rules in M&M) This is an effective loss of two magic points, since I
> decided to mix cyber and bioware, even though the total cyber+bio index is
> only .7, for example.
>
> So, what about a house rule to say you add up the total indices (bio +
> cyber) and round up the total for the number of magic points lost?
>
> What thoughts are there on this?
>
> Dave

Can't have the best of both worlds any more.
I know it hurts but it was about time IMO.

The Wiz

From:	Manolis Skoulikas great_worm@*****.com
Subject:	Cybermage?
Date:	Sat, 29 Apr 2000 22:15:15 +0300

Message no. 50 Mark A Shieh wrote:
>
> Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.com> writes:
> > Page 15 SR3Co: "In addition to the standard uses for Spell Points during
> > character creation, gamemasters may allow player characters to use Spell
> > Points in place of Karma Points in order to begin the game as an initiate
> > ..."
>
> Thanks for the quote! At least it has to be self-initiation
> though, right? Quick poll: Do GMs 'round here actually use this rule?
>
NOOOOOO!!!!!!!

Initiation should be something special, not spell point expenditure.

The Wiz

PS: I could go for the Alpha, even Delta Cyberware, but the player
should put in some damn good excuse in his background and maybe thow in
a flaw/edge paragon to top it...

Message no. 51 Grey wrote:

> One idea that I had was to use the Point System and
> build an Otaku/Mage. Granted, your GM would have to
> be giving you plenty of character points to play with,
> because it would be 55-60 points before buying stats
> or skills, but it could be done. It would really go
> along with the whole Otaku being a magical matrix
> runner theme too. What do you guys think?
>
> Grey
>
It is such a great power combo that even FASA disallowed it specifically
in the companion 3rd ED.

The Wiz

Message no. 52 Patrick Bierlein wrote:

> Yea, I just got done reading that and it's good. From what I remember he's
> got an internal cell phone (encrypted), tacom, internal memory, chip jack
> (used a German language chip a lot in the book), and a datajack. All of
> these I don't think add to more than 2 or 3 essence, or am I wrong?
> But then he's also a very powerful mage from what I've read of him in the
> past. I'd say atleast a 3rd level initiate... if not higher.
>
> Patrick

That is hardly more than 1 point of Essence if you put some in Alpha or
Betaware.

And he passes through waeds using masking, he's got to be grade 5 at the
very least...

The Wiz

Message no. 53 > > One idea that I had was to use the Point System
> and
> > build an Otaku/Mage. Granted, your GM would have
> to
> > be giving you plenty of character points to play
> with,
> > because it would be 55-60 points before buying
> stats
> > or skills, but it could be done. It would really
> go
> > along with the whole Otaku being a magical matrix
> > runner theme too. What do you guys think?
> >
> > Grey
> >
> It is such a great power combo that even FASA
> disallowed it specifically
> in the companion 3rd ED.
>
> The Wiz

Power is only a bad thing if it is abused. If its all
for fun, then who cares?

Grey

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Message no. 54 On Sat, 29 Apr 2000 19:32:13 -0700 (PDT), shadowrn@*********.com wrote:

> > > One idea that I had was to use the Point System
> > and
> > > build an Otaku/Mage. Granted, your GM would have
> > to
> > > be giving you plenty of character points to play
> > with,
> > > because it would be 55-60 points before buying
> > stats
> > > or skills, but it could be done. It would really
> > go
> > > along with the whole Otaku being a magical matrix
> > > runner theme too. What do you guys think?
> > >
> > > Grey
> > >
> > It is such a great power combo that even FASA
> > disallowed it specifically
> > in the companion 3rd ED.
> >
> > The Wiz
>
> Power is only a bad thing if it is abused. If its all
> for fun, then who cares?
>
> Grey

Grey, if you turn up tomorrow telling me that you've rewritten your Otaku to
add magical capability, I *will* be forced to drop a cow on you. :-)

-Scott C. Simmons
"Laziness in doing stupid things can be a great virtue." (James Hilton,
_Lost Horizon_)

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Message no. 55 Grey wrote:
>
> > > One idea that I had was to use the Point System
> > and
> > > build an Otaku/Mage. Granted, your GM would have
> > to
> > > be giving you plenty of character points to play
> > with,
> > > because it would be 55-60 points before buying
> > stats
> > > or skills, but it could be done. It would really
> > go
> > > along with the whole Otaku being a magical matrix
> > > runner theme too. What do you guys think?
> > >
> > > Grey
> > >
> > It is such a great power combo that even FASA
> > disallowed it specifically
> > in the companion 3rd ED.
> >
> > The Wiz
>
> Power is only a bad thing if it is abused. If its all
> for fun, then who cares?
>
> Grey

Show me a person who has the power, knows it and still
makes no use of it and I will gladly make him my closest friend...

People through the ages have portrayed such persons in the archetype
of ''The Fool''. From personal experience, it takes great maturing
processes to be able to contain yourself willingly when you could...

Then again there is this wonderful saying:
''Blessed are the poor in spirit, for their is the kingdom of heaven''.
or something like this (I don't know the exact translation in english)
When you willingly acquire power, you end being 'poor in spirit' and
forfeits the''If it's all for fun...'' part.

the wiz

sorry for the ''overbearing patronizing religious occult mumbojumbo''
answer, but it is the Orthodox Easter here...

Message no. 56 > I wrote this stuff out of a creating a chaos mage
who uses chaos maths to control magic, and computers
and elementals to model and research chaos theory. He
is a technophobe and I was trying to consider what if
any cyberware I should give him. This put me in
conflict with my interpretation on FASA's attitude to
this and this was the result. Anyone care to
disagree/agree/flame/laugh idiotically/smile, pat my
head and say 'there, there'/shake your head at the
folly of youth/buy me a drink/go and create a
cybermage cos you're inspired(!)/burn my deck and fry
my meat body or whatever, feel free, the floor's yours
:)
> Wavy Davy (who shares wins)

I agree with you, Davy. Ever since MitS, I thought
that mages who take geasa are limiting themselves more
than those who don't. The rules no longer MAKE you
into a burnout if you lose a small bit of essence, so
why does that have to be the mentality?

Btw, I hope your mage is a technophile and not a
technophobe. I think a chaos mage who's afraid of
technology would have a few problems. :)

*Doc' makes Davy write "I am a technophile" 100 times
on the DRF...*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 57 > Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.com> writes:
> > Page 15 SR3Co: "In addition to the standard uses
for Spell Points during character creation,
gamemasters may allow player characters to use Spell
Points in place of Karma Points in order to begin the
game as an initiate ..."
>
> Thanks for the quote! At least it has to be
self-initiation though, right?

It doesn't say, Mark, but that only makes sense.
That's the only way I allow it.

> Quick poll: Do GMs 'round here actually use this
rule?

Actually, I've only ever had one player ask to do this
and I allowed him (as he's one of my best players and
TOTALLY unmunchkinous). He also wanted to start with a
low-powered ally spirit which I also allowed. Sure
this has potential for abuse, but the character
herself is of very low power and isn't a shadowrunner
at all (basically, she's a rather naive "history"
professor and the spirit is the only thing keeping her
alive on the streets). All comes down to roleplaying.

In most other circumstances I'd only allow initiation
with a good reason and background and there would be
very very very very few people I'd ever allow to take
an ally at startup.

> <sigh> Never thought I'd be saying this, but I'm
starting to miss SR2. Starting characters with
alpha-grade cyberware and bioware was bad enough...
<shakes head sadly>
> Mark

Don't do that, Mark. This rule is originally from the SR2Comp.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 58 Rand Ratinac wrote:

> <SNIP>

> Actually, I've only ever had one player ask to do this
> and I allowed him (as he's one of my best players and
> TOTALLY unmunchkinous). He also wanted to start with a
> low-powered ally spirit which I also allowed. Sure
> this has potential for abuse, but the character
> herself is of very low power and isn't a shadowrunner
> at all (basically, she's a rather naive "history"
> professor and the spirit is the only thing keeping her
> alive on the streets). All comes down to roleplaying.

*Strago starts to sing in an imitation of a fourth-grader's voice "I know
what Tazz is. I know what Tazz is." over and over again.*
<SNIP>

--
--Strago

All Hail Apathy! Or don't. Whatever. -abortion_engine

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN+ SRFF W+ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+
(o++ d+) gm+ M P

Message no. 59 On Mon, 01 May 2000 01:09:44 -0400 Strago <strago@***.com> writes:
<SNIP>
> *Strago starts to sing in an imitation of a fourth-grader's voice "I
> know
> what Tazz is. I know what Tazz is." over and over again.*
> <SNIP>

ROFL! I thought there was only one z... Is it Taz or Tazz? *checks logs*
Yup. It's Taz. :) ... Hey wait! That means she lied in the back room of
the bar when ... err... nevermind ... *innocent whistle*

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 60 On Sun, 30 Apr 2000 20:52:50 -0700 (PDT) Rand
Ratinac?<docwagon101@*****.com> writes:
<SNIP>
> I agree with you, Davy. Ever since MitS, I thought
> that mages who take geasa are limiting themselves more
> than those who don't. The rules no longer MAKE you
> into a burnout if you lose a small bit of essence, so
> why does that have to be the mentality?
<SNIP>

I wish Magic Loss was more gradual. A mage might, realisticly refrain
from getting a lot of cyber. However, as the 1 point of Essence loss
impacts your Magic (insofar as game mechanics are concerned) the same
amount as .1 Essence loss, I think there is a tendency to install
cyberware in magically active individuals in increments of 1 point of
Essence.

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 61 On Sun, 30 Apr 2000 22:00:54 -0700 (PDT) Rand
Ratinac?<docwagon101@*****.com> writes:
<SNIP>
> In most other circumstances I'd only allow initiation
> with a good reason and background and there would be
> very very very very few people I'd ever allow to take
> an ally at startup.
<SNIP>

I allowed a character once, an adept, to initate thrice with group
initiation. He was part of an eastern monastary (and thus I would not
allow him to initate again until he returned the monastary without
breaking a stricture or something). He shadowrunned (shadowran?) to send
money back to monastary and he had a spirit companion (Bonsai Tree - Free
Manitous) that helped him out here and there. He was very cool. I really
enjoyed GMing him with that character. The jerk who kept saying "Can we
hurry up?", "Can we skip this?", "Oh god, he's going to roll for
THAT?"
was another matter and I probably won't allow him in another game I GM.

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 62 Alfredo B Alves wrote:

> On Sun, 30 Apr 2000 20:52:50 -0700 (PDT) Rand Ratinac?>
<docwagon101@*****.com> writes:
> <SNIP>
> > I agree with you, Davy. Ever since MitS, I thought
> > that mages who take geasa are limiting themselves more
> > than those who don't. The rules no longer MAKE you
> > into a burnout if you lose a small bit of essence, so
> > why does that have to be the mentality?
> <SNIP>
>
> I wish Magic Loss was more gradual. A mage might, realisticly refrain
> from getting a lot of cyber. However, as the 1 point of Essence loss
> impacts your Magic (insofar as game mechanics are concerned) the same
> amount as .1 Essence loss, I think there is a tendency to install
> cyberware in magically active individuals in increments of 1 point of
> Essence.
>

I've seen that in myself. When I make a mage with cyber (which I'm doing
more and more), I try to get as close to whole numbers as possible. If,
after adding everything up Essence-wise, the number comes out to, say, 2.2,
then I'll see what might be useful that costs anywhere from .2-.8, or even
choose two or more small-essence things (though I'd never thought to
alpha-ware it) to fit everything in there nice and tight, and not waste an
entire point of Magic on something so silly as .1 of Essence loss.

>
> --
> D. Ghost
> Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
> - Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
>
> ________________________________________________________________
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SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN+ SRFF W+ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++
d+) gm+ M P

Message no. 63 On Sun, 30 Apr 2000, [iso-8859-1] Rand Ratinac wrote:

> I agree with you, Davy. Ever since MitS, I thought

You have impeccable taste :) As a favour to me, when people refer to
me by name, could you use 'Wavy' as opposed to 'Davy' as It makes me
feel like I'm back at high school *shudder* :) Plus everyone IRL
calls me that anyway, and I kinda get confused by Davy
"Who's that guy shouting Davy at the top of his voice. Hang on a
minute....." :)

> Btw, I hope your mage is a technophile and not a
> technophobe. I think a chaos mage who's afraid of
> technology would have a few problems. :)
>
> *Doc' makes Davy write "I am a technophile" 100 times
> on the DRF...*

Bloomin' Ada - one lousey slip of the tongue *grumble, grumble*

I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile
I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile
I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile
I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile
I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile
I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile
I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile
I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile
I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile
I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile
I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile
I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile
I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile
I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile
I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile
I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile
I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile
I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile
I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile
I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile
I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile
I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile
I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile
I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile
I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile

Dontcha just love vi? Count 'em Doc :)

--
Wavy Davy (who shares wins)
...If God dwells inside us, like some people say, I sure hope He likes
enchiladas, because that's what He's getting!

Message no. 64 > > *Strago starts to sing in an imitation of a
> fourth-grader's voice "I
> > know
> > what Tazz is. I know what Tazz is." over and over
> again.*
> > <SNIP>
>
> ROFL! I thought there was only one z... Is it Taz or
> Tazz? *checks logs*
> Yup. It's Taz. :) ... Hey wait! That means she lied
> in the back room of
> the bar when ... err... nevermind ... *innocent
> whistle*
> D. Ghost

Okay, boys, shut up.

I don't know WHAT I was thinking - I probably wasn't.

Do NOT say a word about this, though, or I will have
to hurt you severely.

That goes for all of you.

You know who I'm talking about. :)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

__________________________________________________
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Message no. 65 > > I agree with you, Davy. Ever since MitS, I thought
>
> You have impeccable taste :) As a favour to me,
when people refer to me by name, could you use 'Wavy'
as opposed to 'Davy' as It makes me feel like I'm back
at high school *shudder* :) Plus everyone IRL calls me
that anyway, and I kinda get confused by Davy "Who's
that guy shouting Davy at the top of his voice. Hang
on a minute....." :)

Uh, sure...Wavy.

..........

Damn, I KNOW there's gotta be a dirty joke in that
name somewhere, but for the life of me I can't figure
out what it is. :)

> > Btw, I hope your mage is a technophile and not a
technophobe. I think a chaos mage who's afraid of
technology would have a few problems. :)
> >
> > *Doc' makes Davy write "I am a technophile" 100
times on the DRF...*
>
> Bloomin' Ada - one lousey slip of the tongue
*grumble, grumble*
>
> I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a
technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I am
a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I
am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile
I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a
technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I am
a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I
am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile
I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a
technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I am
a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I
am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile
I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a
technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I am
a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I
am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile
I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a
technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I am
a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I
am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile
I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a
technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I am
a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I
am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile
I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a
technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I am
a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I
am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile
I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a
technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I am
a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I
am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile
I am a technophile I am a technophile I am a
technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I am
a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile I
am a technophile I am a technophile I am a technophile
I am a technophile
>
> Dontcha just love vi? Count 'em Doc :)
> Wavy Davy (who shares wins)

That's very pretty, Wavy.

However, I said the DRF - the Deep Resonance Forums.
This is the ShadowRN mailing list. Go do it again, in
the right place this time.

;)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

__________________________________________________
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Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
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Message no. 66 On Mon, 1 May 2000, [iso-8859-1] Rand Ratinac wrote:

> Uh, sure...Wavy.
>
> ..........
>
> Damn, I KNOW there's gotta be a dirty joke in that
> name somewhere, but for the life of me I can't figure
> out what it is. :)

Beleive me, I've heared 'em all

> That's very pretty, Wavy.
>
> However, I said the DRF - the Deep Resonance Forums.
> This is the ShadowRN mailing list. Go do it again, in
> the right place this time.

Your da boss :p

--
Wavy Davy (on his way to register on DRF....)
...If you go flying back through time, and you see somebody else flying
forward into the future, it's probably best to avoid eye contact.

Message no. 67 > > Uh, sure...Wavy.
> >
> > ..........
> >
> > Damn, I KNOW there's gotta be a dirty joke in that
name somewhere, but for the life of me I can't figure
out what it is. :)
>
> Beleive me, I've heared 'em all

Not yet. Just give me time...;)

> > That's very pretty, Wavy.
> >
> > However, I said the DRF - the Deep Resonance
Forums. This is the ShadowRN mailing list. Go do it
again, in the right place this time.
>
> Your da boss :p
> Wavy Davy (on his way to register on DRF....)

Well, I'm glad you recognised that before I was forced
to pummel you severely about the head and shoulders.

*Doc' punches his palm threateningly, then cries as he
injures himself...*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

__________________________________________________
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