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Message no. 1
From: John Velasco <decor.consulting@***.SERVICOM.ES>
Subject: Cyber Olympics?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:29:57 +0200
While playing this weekend & talking about the debacle of the Tour de
France, where a whole team has been disqualified for failing to pass the
anti-doping tests, we started to talk about sports in general in 20XX. Which
leads me to ask, what has happened to sports in the awakened world?

I don't mean urban brawl/desert war type sports that seem to abound, but the
ol' fashion Olympic stuff. Are the Olympic games still held? Do the
cyber/bio fiends compete against un-enhanced (well, except for the usual
chemical stimulant ;) mundanes, or is there a separate competition for each?

Would magic be allowed in sports and to what extent? I can see how in any
contact sport, teams would benefit from having magical healing on hand, but
what other uses would it have....uummm, legally that is :) The spirit power
of movement seems ideally suited for use and abuse in the sports world :)

Have the national sports changed in 20XX, or are football, baseball and
soccer still the giant crowd pullers they are now?

I'm sorry if this is general knowledge on the list, but here in Spain we
have a hard time getting hold of SR material (most) that hasn't been translated.


BioNick . <who can't seem to get the image of a troll goalkeeper out of his
head ...Oh my God! now I see him as an Ice hockey goalie :o >



======================================================

If only you could see what I have seen with your eyes!
Message no. 2
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyber Olympics?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 06:34:21 EDT
In a message dated 28/07/98 05:30:24 Central Daylight Time,
decor.consulting@***.SERVICOM.ES writes:

> I don't mean urban brawl/desert war type sports that seem to abound, but the
> ol' fashion Olympic stuff. Are the Olympic games still held? Do the
> cyber/bio fiends compete against un-enhanced (well, except for the usual
> chemical stimulant ;) mundanes, or is there a separate competition for
each?

The best way to answer this is to track down a copy of Shadowbeat, which
covers this all. In general, yes, the Olympics are still held, but no, they'
don't allow cyber or magic (though you can feel free to dope people up, as
they lost the ability to detect a lot of them, so just allow unlimited drugs).
The Big 3 of American Sports (Baseball, American Football, and Basketball) all
allow cyber nowadays, but phys ads aren't liked in many places. Soccer is
still poopular, and cyber is noted as not being popular in track n field,
where it comes down to who has the better mods.

Nexx, who wishes some parts of Shadowbeat were part of SR3
Message no. 3
From: The Bookworm <Thomas.M.Price@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cyber Olympics?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:41:47 -0500
On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Nexx Many-Scars wrote:

> The Big 3 of American Sports (Baseball, American Football, and Basketball) all
> allow cyber nowadays, but phys ads aren't liked in many places. Soccer is
> still poopular, and cyber is noted as not being popular in track n field,
> where it comes down to who has the better mods.

Well I dont want to get into the "Is it Cannon" debate but in Wolf and the
Raven by Stackpole there is a short story dealing with Baseball in the 5th
world. It seems that the leages hit upon an idea to draw fans back to the
game. Install skill wires in all the players and load them with custome
skill softs. These skillsofts would make the player mimick the
performance of various Baseball stars through out the history of the game.
Each year the teams hold a draft for the various skill softs. There were
rules about how many big names vs small timers you could have to.
Interesting story if a tad bit out there.

Thomas Price
aka The Bookworm
thomas.m.price@*******.edu
tmprice@***********.com
Message no. 4
From: John Velasco <decor.consulting@***.SERVICOM.ES>
Subject: Re: Cyber Olympics?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 17:37:48 +0200
At 06:34 28/07/98 EDT, Nexx wrote:

>The best way to answer this is to track down a copy of Shadowbeat, which
>covers this all. In general, yes, the Olympics are still held, but no, they'
>don't allow cyber or magic (though you can feel free to dope people up, as
>they lost the ability to detect a lot of them, so just allow unlimited drugs).
>The Big 3 of American Sports (Baseball, American Football, and Basketball) all
>allow cyber nowadays, but phys ads aren't liked in many places. Soccer is
>still poopular, and cyber is noted as not being popular in track n field,
>where it comes down to who has the better mods.
>
>Nexx, who wishes some parts of Shadowbeat were part of SR3

Thanks for the information. I doubt that getting a copy of Shadowbeat is
going to happen any time soon, but at least now I have an idea of how things
are.


BioNick


======================================================

If only you could see what I have seen with your eyes!
Message no. 5
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyber Olympics?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:25:31 -0400
At 12:29 PM 7/28/98 +0200, you wrote:

As Nexx said, getting a copy of Shadowbeat is very useful; I personally
highly recommend it. Simply because it has info on the rest of the world
of 205X and not just the shadows. Okay, half the book was useless, since
I'll never run a rocker PC, though a newsie might be viable in some games.
It's out of print, but it didn't sell well (no guns I think) so you should
be able to track down a copy, maybe even used.

>I don't mean urban brawl/desert war type sports that seem to abound, but the
>ol' fashion Olympic stuff. Are the Olympic games still held? Do the
>cyber/bio fiends compete against un-enhanced (well, except for the usual
>chemical stimulant ;) mundanes, or is there a separate competition for each?

No cyber or physadepts in the Olympics. Corporate teams are allowed to
compete; they are after all, extraterritorial corporate nations. Drugs
fully allowed. the 2056 (I think) Olympics were held in Japan, which if I
recall the note from FASA, was something of an embarrassment for Japan.
They wouldn't allow metas and humans to compete together, so major athletes
and teams boycotted the 56 Games. They still went on, but were crippled
much as the Moscow 80 or Los Angeles 84 Games.

>Would magic be allowed in sports and to what extent? I can see how in any
>contact sport, teams would benefit from having magical healing on hand, but
>what other uses would it have....uummm, legally that is :) The spirit power
>of movement seems ideally suited for use and abuse in the sports world :)

Magic, for some reason, seems to be quite unpopular in sports. Physadepts
are somehow thought to have an unfair advantage, even over cybered
athletes. I think each arena, perhaps even each team, does maintain a
healing magician, but that's more to prevent death and major injury and
even that doesn't always work.

>Have the national sports changed in 20XX, or are football, baseball and
>soccer still the giant crowd pullers they are now?

Don't forget hockey and basketball. Soccer is still popular in the whole
of the world except the UCAS/CAS. Football is crazy for cyber, major
augmentation is the norm and several deaths occur on the field every year.
Baseball and Basketball go relatively light on the cyber, with
sport-modified smartgun link/tracking devices most common, along with light
muscle and speed augmentation. Sports like basketball and soccer break
down and simply don't work when the players get too fast. Hockey fits in
the middle. Normals and physadepts still play, but are relatively rare.
Metahumans are allowed, but that depends on their home teams. The Portland
Lords (Tir Tairngire) baseball team is mostly elves for example, but the
Atlanta Braves (CAS) might be heavily human. Oh, and megacorporate teams
also play in most or all of these sports.

>BioNick . <who can't seem to get the image of a troll goalkeeper out of his
>head ...Oh my God! now I see him as an Ice hockey goalie :o >

Heh. A troll hockey goalie...big, but would need speed augmentation since
pucks can fly up around 100mph. Gimme an elf with speed augs any day for a
goalie. Now let's see who's the Big Cat now! I would hate to be checked
into the glass by a troll though...

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 6
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyber Olympics?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:26:07 -0400
At 08:41 AM 7/28/98 -0500, you wrote:

>Well I dont want to get into the "Is it Cannon" debate but in Wolf and the
>Raven by Stackpole there is a short story dealing with Baseball in the 5th
>world. It seems that the leages hit upon an idea to draw fans back to the
>game. Install skill wires in all the players and load them with custome
>skill softs. These skillsofts would make the player mimick the
>performance of various Baseball stars through out the history of the game.
>Each year the teams hold a draft for the various skill softs. There were
>rules about how many big names vs small timers you could have to.
>Interesting story if a tad bit out there.

That was a wacked out concept. Okay, fun and interesting for a story. But
for real life? Any true baseball fan (which I'm not, but I know a few)
wouldn't be fond of the concept of watching someone *mimic* Babe Ruth or
Lou Gehrig. And getting hits and homers based on statistics? Gimme a
break! Not only do I doubt it could be done (too many variables involved,
such as weather, pitching and fielding) but it seriously detracts from the
game. Why not watch a statistical simulation? People go to the ballpark
not to see statistics, they go to see athletes competing against each other.

I love basketball, but I wouldn't watch some no-name mimicing Magic Johnson
or Larry Bird; they might match the stats, but they won't ever be able to
match the fire or the determination or the flair.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 7
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Cyber Olympics?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 19:47:06 +0100
John Velasco said on 12:29/28 Jul 98,...

> While playing this weekend & talking about the debacle of the Tour de
> France, where a whole team has been disqualified for failing to pass the
> anti-doping tests

It was because a lot of drugs were discovered in one of the
team's cars, IIRC. But that's a bit beside the point, with one
team disqualified and another under heavy investigation. I liked
the way the riders went on strike because of the media coverage,
though.

> we started to talk about sports in general in 20XX. Which
> leads me to ask, what has happened to sports in the awakened world?
>
> I don't mean urban brawl/desert war type sports that seem to abound, but the
> ol' fashion Olympic stuff. Are the Olympic games still held? Do the
> cyber/bio fiends compete against un-enhanced (well, except for the usual
> chemical stimulant ;) mundanes, or is there a separate competition for each?

As has been said by others, this is described in Shadowbeat,
which talks about sports in addition to music and broadcasting.
Athletics is very much anti-cyber, so far that even cyberware that
does absolutely nothing to make you a better athlete is banned;
American football OTOH allows cyberware on the field, and they
had to make the field larger as a result.

On the whole, though, sports are still around as they are today.

> BioNick . <who can't seem to get the image of a troll goalkeeper out of his
> head ...Oh my God! now I see him as an Ice hockey goalie :o >

Just shoot the ball/puck/etc. between his legs, he won't be able
to stop it :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Hanging on to letting go.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 8
From: Dhl9@***.COM
Subject: Re: Cyber Olympics?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:34:37 EDT
In a message dated 98-07-28 12:32:17 EDT, you write:

> That was a wacked out concept. Okay, fun and interesting for a story. But
> for real life? Any true baseball fan (which I'm not, but I know a few)
> wouldn't be fond of the concept of watching someone *mimic* Babe Ruth or
> Lou Gehrig. And getting hits and homers based on statistics? Gimme a
> break! Not only do I doubt it could be done (too many variables involved,
> such as weather, pitching and fielding) but it seriously detracts from the
> game. Why not watch a statistical simulation? People go to the ballpark
> not to see statistics, they go to see athletes competing against each
other.
>
> I love basketball, but I wouldn't watch some no-name mimicing Magic Johnson
> or Larry Bird; they might match the stats, but they won't ever be able to
> match the fire or the determination or the flair.
>

It wouldn't be to pull in the fans. Baseball isn't having problems with it's
true fans. They need to get sports fans like me interested in baseball. I find
it endlessly boring. Nothing but a radical change in the game will get me back
to watching. Maybe not this but something that makes me stop watching the
calender between the end of basketball season and the start of football
season. There was a survey of young kids and baseball clearly lagged behind
football and basketball as far as what was their favorite sport. I could see
baseball considering alternatives to draw fans by 2058. How would a pitcher in
2058 do against say, Ken Griffey Jr.? Those are the kinds of questions we talk
about today in sports. With this kind of technology available there is a
chance to answer those questions.


Wouldn't be able to match their flair. That brings up a question about
skillwires. Would skillwires be able to match the skill of a marksman or a
great athlete? As a GM, I say no. If someone is using skillwires I always
raise the target number. You may be able to program a body to do things with a
great deal of accuracy but not duplicate, not at higher levels.
Message no. 9
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyber Olympics?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:16:16 -0400
At 03:34 PM 7/28/98 EDT, you wrote:

>I could see
>baseball considering alternatives to draw fans by 2058. How would a
pitcher in
>2058 do against say, Ken Griffey Jr.? Those are the kinds of questions we
talk
>about today in sports. With this kind of technology available there is a
>chance to answer those questions.

But statistically we can do that now, on computers. And really, only
hardcore fans care how Ken Griffey Jr. would do against Don Sutton. The
casual fans, like me, could care less. No, baseball needs the equivalent
of Magic Johnson, Larry Bird and Micheal Jordan. Insanely talented
athletes that are a joy to watch, and in the case of Magic, oodles of
charisma off the court. Who's like that in baseball? No one.

No, the alternatives I see for baseball 205X is to make the game more
dynamic while still being baseball. Make it quicker, make those
spectacular plays more common. How do you do that? Cyberware.

>Wouldn't be able to match their flair. That brings up a question about
>skillwires. Would skillwires be able to match the skill of a marksman or a
>great athlete? As a GM, I say no. If someone is using skillwires I always
>raise the target number. You may be able to program a body to do things
with a
>great deal of accuracy but not duplicate, not at higher levels.

Well, it should be able to match the mechanics of the skill. A
skill-chipped clone of Michael Jordon should be able to hit the same
percentage of tough shots. But will those tough shots have the same grace?
Not likely. I would say that chipped-skills simply are utterly lacking in
aesthetics, but not necessarily proficiency.

Erik J.
Message no. 10
From: Waffelmaisters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Cyber Olympics?
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 18:13:50 -0500
> Re: Cyber Olympics? (Erik Jameson , Tue 17:16)

> >Wouldn't be able to match their flair. That brings up a question about
> >skillwires. Would skillwires be able to match the skill of a marksman or a
> >great athlete? As a GM, I say no. If someone is using skillwires I always
> >raise the target number. You may be able to program a body to do things
> with a
> >great deal of accuracy but not duplicate, not at higher levels.
>
> Well, it should be able to match the mechanics of the skill. A
> skill-chipped clone of Michael Jordon should be able to hit the same
> percentage of tough shots. But will those tough shots have the same grace?
> Not likely. I would say that chipped-skills simply are utterly lacking in
> aesthetics, but not necessarily proficiency.

I agreethat isshould (perfectly) match the machanics of the skill- the
(GM) person whosuggested that TN's for tasks using highrating Skillwires
should be raised is as wrong asanybodywhotthinksTN's would beLOWER if
your skillwirehas ahigh rating. It is a recording of the skill that
grants you that skill.
What it does NOT grant you is the aptitide (atributes) and
creativity(pool) that go with the skill. Sombody with "Basketball 10"
slotted isNOTMichae Jordan, because they do nothave his speed, stamina,
or reactions (if they did, l;ike many runners, they would be technically
as good, or bettr).
What they also lackis his insight and creativity- they might be ABLE to
drain the 3 on the buzzer, or cut past 3 guards for a slm, but would
they try? Thats partly in the roleplaying - I'd say most chipuser would
not have the abilty to plan their activites intuitively. Thats also why
you don't get any pools with slotted skills. So indaed, watching a
slotted player might not be much fun, and they might not even be very
good, as far as teamworkand such things go-the choce to pass or shoot is
still the users, after all. A well executed pass (or shot) at the wrong
time still results in no points.

Mongoose
Message no. 11
From: Dhl9@***.COM
Subject: Re: Cyber Olympics?
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 19:59:43 EDT
In a message dated 98-07-30 19:03:19 EDT, you write:

> I agreethat isshould (perfectly) match the machanics of the skill- the
> (GM) person whosuggested that TN's for tasks using highrating Skillwires
> should be raised is as wrong asanybodywhotthinksTN's would beLOWER if
> your skillwirehas ahigh rating. It is a recording of the skill that
> grants you that skill.
> What it does NOT grant you is the aptitide (atributes) and
> creativity(pool) that go with the skill. Sombody with "Basketball 10"
> slotted isNOTMichae Jordan, because they do nothave his speed, stamina,
> or reactions (if they did, l;ike many runners, they would be technically
> as good, or bettr).

I am the GM that said that and you backed up my point. No matter how well a
chip might replicate the skills of the athlete, you would have to have the
same attributes of a Michael Jordan to execute the skill at the same level.
That is why I raise the TNs. Pee Wee Herman could load the Jordan chip but I
doubt he is going to turn into "Air" Pee Wee.
Message no. 12
From: Waffelmaisters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Cyber Olympics?
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 03:05:28 -0500
> Re: Cyber Olympics? (Dhl9@***.COM, 18:59)
>
> In a message dated 98-07-30 19:03:19 EDT, you write:
>
> > I agree that it should (perfectly) match the machanics of the skill- the
(GM) person who suggested that TN's for tasks using high rating Skillwires
> > should be raised is as wrong as anybody who thinks TN's would be LOWER if
> > your skillwire has a high rating. It is a recording of the skill that
> > grants you that skill.
> > What it does NOT grant you is the aptitide (atributes) and
> > creativity (pool) that go with the skill. Sombody with "Basketball
10"
> > slotted is NOT Michae Jordan, because they do not have his speed, stamina,
> > or reactions (if they did, like many runners, they would be technically
> > as good, or bettr).
>
> I am the GM that said that and you backed up my point. No matter how well a
> chip might replicate the skills of the athlete, you would have to have the
> same attributes of a Michael Jordan to execute the skill at the same level.
> That is why I raise the TNs. Pee Wee Herman could load the Jordan chip but I
> doubt he is going to turn into "Air" Pee Wee.

Ah. As a mechanic, that makes some sense, but has NOTHING to do with
the skillwires/soft. Many runners have stats that put pro atheletes to
SHAME- would you REDUCE thier tns?
A good example of these factors would be if a very fit person and a
very weak, frail one both slotted the same "boxing" soft and fought each
other. Thier SKILL would be identical, as would thier combat test
TN's. But the fit person would win-they would puch harder and resist
hits better. Similarly, the TN to block somebody's move on the b-ball
court might be thier quickness (or reaction)- meaning a person with a
good stat would do better, skill being equal. Adjusting the TN'S does
the same, but seems like an arbitrary "gm call" if the reasons are not
known.
Also, I still don't see that my speed samurai would play good ball if
given a good soft- I personally (as his only "brain") know very little
about the game, so would make shitty calls as to what plays to run,
etc. Just as a PC can have high combat skills and get slain because the
player is stupid, or doesn't know how the rules can work against and for
him, I'd fail because my declared actions were poor ones, despite my
"skill".

Mongoose
Message no. 13
From: Dhl9@***.COM
Subject: Re: Cyber Olympics?
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:08:13 EDT
In a message dated 98-07-31 05:26:54 EDT, you write:

> Ah. As a mechanic, that makes some sense, but has NOTHING to do
> with
> the skillwires/soft. Many runners have stats that put pro atheletes to
> SHAME- would you REDUCE thier tns?
> A good example of these factors would be if a very fit person and a
> very weak, frail one both slotted the same "boxing" soft and fought each
> other. Thier SKILL would be identical, as would thier combat test
> TN's.

I think I am starting to see a pattern to our discussion. You are debating the
technical aspect of what the skillsoft is capable of and I am thinking more
along the lines of practicality. I will conceed the skillsoft should be able
to replicate exactly what it was intended to replicate but when it is used by
a person who can't take full advantage of that skillsoft, I will raise target
numbers. If you were in my e-mail game and had a human or elven character of
say, 6-3 or better and was a good athlete, I would probably not raise the TN
if he/she wanted to use the skillsoft to try and replicate the legendary slam
dunk that Jordan executed in the NBA All-Star game that earned him the
nickname "Air", but your dwarven rigger would have a higher target number.
Message no. 14
From: Waffelmaisters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Cyber Olympics?
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 14:00:31 -0500
>
> Re: Cyber Olympics? (Dhl9@***.COM, Fri 11:08)
>
> In a message dated 98-07-31 05:26:54 EDT, you write:
>
> > Ah. As a mechanic, that makes some sense, but has NOTHING to do
> > with
> > the skillwires/soft. Many runners have stats that put pro atheletes to
> > SHAME- would you REDUCE thier tns?
> > A good example of these factors would be if a very fit person and a
> > very weak, frail one both slotted the same "boxing" soft and fought
each
> > other. Thier SKILL would be identical, as would thier combat test
> > TN's.
>
> I think I am starting to see a pattern to our discussion. You are debating the
> technical aspect of what the skillsoft is capable of and I am thinking more
> along the lines of practicality. I will conceed the skillsoft should be able
> to replicate exactly what it was intended to replicate but when it is used by
> a person who can't take full advantage of that skillsoft, I will raise target
> numbers. If you were in my e-mail game and had a human or elven character of
> say, 6-3 or better and was a good athlete, I would probably not raise the TN
> if he/she wanted to use the skillsoft to try and replicate the legendary slam
> dunk that Jordan executed in the NBA All-Star game that earned him the
> nickname "Air", but your dwarven rigger would have a higher target number.

I'm not actually debating your use of GM set TN's for such general
actions. I'd just use a diferent mechanic; in this case, something like
roll the skill against the "normal" TN, and for each succes you clear X
cm from the ground, X being some fraction of the characters hight, or
multiple of quickness, or whatever. Thus, the roll would be the same,
but the result less impressive if your natural potential was low.
Actually, my method would make such dunks IMPOSSIBLE for some (not
enough dice toget enough succeses), where as yours lets a lucky "rule of
6-6-6" roll slip by, a general feature of "1 succes" TN tests. Its just
a small play style thing, not at all a technical issue about the wares.

Mongoose

Further Reading

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