Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 20:11:35 EDT
On Mon, 11 Aug 1997 22:26:26 -0400 Bull <chaos@*****.COM> writes:

>Ok... Mike commented on both of these areas, since they are asked
>about so
>often...
>
>Azania -- "Do we really want ANOTHER Nazi Elven nation?"


No, but who says Azania _has_ to be like the two Tirs? (please forgive my
ignorance of the Therans:)


>Japan -- No reason to do much with Japan, outside of describing it
>briefly.
> Between racial meta-racial prejudices, and the fact that the corps
>control
>things so tightly, you can't really do much in Japan, unless you want
>to
>plan a Japanese Human working strictly for one corp.


Maybe so, but what about background, etc. Those things are important. Is
FASA looking a Pac Rim book? Nippon could be fit in there, with a brief
bit describing what's going on, the major players and a few points of
interest (major shadow clinics, tourist attractions, etc <G>). Seems to
me like at least four of the Big 8 (Renraku, MCT, Fuchi, Shiawase) have
Japanese roots, as well as the Yaks, plus there's Chiba (I *think* that's
in Japan, my geography could be seriously screwed up, though), which
houses one of the world's few delta clinics. Not enough for a whole book
perhaps, but certainly worthy of a write-up, IMO.


--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 2
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Cyberpirates CHEERS
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 00:33:38 +0100
In article <3.0.16.19970811214536.2f5f08e4@*****.com>, Bull
<chaos@*****.COM> rambled on endlessly about Cyberpirates CHEERS (was:
Re: Miami (Florida) in the 6th World)
>At 07:31 PM 8/7/97 -0400, J. Keith Henry wrote these timeless words:
>
>>Until they publish hardcore material on Azania and/or Japan, I am certain we
>>won't be really satiated. IF anything, this is going to tempt us that much
>>more.
>>
>Ok... Mike commented on both of these areas, since they are asked about so
>often...
>
>Azania -- "Do we really want ANOTHER Nazi Elven nation?"

Of course not, so change it. That would seem to be the logical step
would it not? Do away with the IE, nobodies going to miss them anyway.

>Japan -- No reason to do much with Japan, outside of describing it briefly.
> Between racial meta-racial prejudices, and the fact that the corps control
>things so tightly, you can't really do much in Japan, unless you want to
>plan a Japanese Human working strictly for one corp.

Considering the amount of cultural and financial influence Japan has on
the Shadowrun milieu, and the concentration of japanese influence
throughout the genre, this seems to be a strange attitude indeed. Even
CP2020 admits a considerable influence from Japan in the genre.

Of course, it might be difficult deciding exactly what Japan is like in
205*, but the Japanese have released an "official" sourcebook, Gen-Ichi
and friends are working on the unofficial sourcebook. So it's not like
there's a lack of material.

And to state that "you can't really do much in Japan" is irresponsible
and wasteful.

But hell, who cares what I think. From the DLOH I find those two
statements you claim to be his, not only inconsiderate but also
surprisingly flippant. Methinks Mike might need a brief reality check.

Maybe someone ought to consider buying the Bubblegum Crisis information
for Mike, and showing him what can be done with Japan. Even with major
corporations ruling the place. Or should I say, "especially" with
corporations ruling the place. It might also be an idea to point him in
the direction of the African and Japanese Sourcebook (World Book 4 & 8)
for Rifts. Seems that other game manufacturers aren't thinking that
these areas are pointless. Thinking about it, Rifts also have two South
American Sourcebooks available... OK, so the game is geared towards
Munchies, so what, the source material is good.




--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
Web page at: http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk
Message no. 3
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 02:04:00 GMT
on 12.08.97 lobo1@****.COM wrote:

l> >Azania -- "Do we really want ANOTHER Nazi Elven nation?"
l>
l>
l> No, but who says Azania _has_ to be like the two Tirs? (please forgive my
l> ignorance of the Therans:)

Now that would be great! A non-asshole elven nation. Maybe something like
a fantasy place. Main industry would be tourism, lots of trouble with the
Tirs, who think it should be one of them. Hell, this looks like Universal
Brotherhood V2.0: Everything nice on the outside - lots of dangers
inside...

l>
l> Maybe so, but what about background, etc. Those things are important. Is
l> FASA looking a Pac Rim book? Nippon could be fit in there, with a brief
l> bit describing what's going on, the major players and a few points of
l> interest (major shadow clinics, tourist attractions, etc <G>). Seems to
l> me like at least four of the Big 8 (Renraku, MCT, Fuchi, Shiawase) have
l> Japanese roots, as well as the Yaks, plus there's Chiba (I *think* that's
l> in Japan, my geography could be seriously screwed up, though), which

Chiba is near/part of Tokyo, IIRC.

l> houses one of the world's few delta clinics. Not enough for a whole book
l> perhaps, but certainly worthy of a write-up, IMO.


Tobias
## CrossPoint v3.1 ##
Message no. 4
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 19:59:00 GMT
on 12.08.97 bxb121@***.EDU wrote:

b> Wait...Japan, the home of technology, the origins of the megacorp,
b> breeding ground of the yakuza, neighbors to the Seoulpa and Triads,
b> Center of intrigue, politics, corps, and cyber, and there is nothing
b> for Shadowrunners?
b>
b> Read some Gibson.

There's a BIG difference between Gibson and SR. In Gibson's sprawl-books,
Japan is much like the SR Seattle: A giant sprawl with lots of crime. In
SR, it's a gaint sprawl, too, but the only crime you'll find there is
white collar. The whole island is one big city (call it Metropolis, if you
want to) completely controled and owned by the corps (at least that's what
all SR products point towards).

Tobias
## CrossPoint v3.1 ##
Message no. 5
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 02:25:00 GMT
on 13.08.97 Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK wrote:

[Japan]

A> Which all comes down to the simple fact that Japanese shadowrunners are
A> far more professional than any other country.

No! Not again! We had that 'far more professional' thing when Berlin was
introduced and it didn't work. Face it: Shadowrunners are street people.
Maybe a few are former military or corps, but those tend to end up in the
merc buisness. Even in Japan, shadowrunners aren't trained by the best of
the best, just to get them out on the streets, they are former gang-
members, guttertrash. And those will never become good enough to survive a
single SR in Japan. O.K., you could train a runner in Seallte for - maybe
- ten years and then send him to Japan, but that's a bit unlikely, right?

A> Regarding your comments about Police states and Crime, I can only point
A> you in the direction of the USSR, which was effectively a Police State,
A> and yet still had a high crime rate. Not just in smuggling western
A> goods.

Well, there's a difference between a police-state and a police-state-being-
owned-by-the-mob.

Tobias
## CrossPoint v3.1 ##
Message no. 6
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 01:20:00 GMT
on 12.08.97 chaos@*****.COM wrote:

c> As for you're comments about the game having an American point of view,
c> you're right, it does. but then, FASA is an American company, and they've
c> seen how well they do when they try and write books based on other places
c> (Like London and Germany).

Both sourcebooks were written by folks living in that country. I've never
seen the London sourcebook, but if they had simply translated 'Deutschland
in den Schatten' into English and sold it as the Germany sourcebook, it
would have been much better. All the neat toys from DidS are really cool
to play and the info on German corps is also quite useful (SK is German,
remember?). Maybe the SR-playing 'masses' aren't interested in anything
but America, but if this mailing-list is some what representive, than I'd
say that SR-players are interested in anything they can get on anything. I
have the feeling, that most people here would buy an Africa or Australia
(one I'm waiting for since I first got my hands on SR) sourcebook.

Tobias
## CrossPoint v3.1 ##
Message no. 7
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 01:10:00 GMT
on 12.08.97 bilbo@****.NWLINK.COM wrote:

b> >Or just do to Azania what they did to Scotland, Wales and the
b> >Netherlands - arbitrarily destroy them.
b>
b> "Unfortuneately, in 2056, Azania fell into the ocean. Many whining,
b> Immortal Elves wearing thorns on their bodies were quickly killed.
b> Following that, a large volcano spontaneously erupted and
b> disintegrated all of their artifacts." Ooops... ;)

"Later, lava of from the Azanian volcano came down on both Tirs, erasing
them completely. Numerous thank-god-partys are reported from all the citys
with a hugh shadowrunner-comunity. Film at eleven."


bye

Tobias
## CrossPoint v3.1 ##
Message no. 8
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 15:13:53 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-16 13:18:52 EDT, you write:

> There's a BIG difference between Gibson and SR. In Gibson's sprawl-books,
> Japan is much like the SR Seattle: A giant sprawl with lots of crime. In
> SR, it's a gaint sprawl, too, but the only crime you'll find there is
> white collar. The whole island is one big city (call it Metropolis, if you
> want to) completely controled and owned by the corps (at least that's what
> all SR products point towards).

Not really. Japan may be the shining example given for the cities of the
future, but I got news for you. They had to send the poor, destitute,
undesirables, and metas somewhere. Look for it, there's a sprawl in Japan, it
ain't lily-white, and it ain't on the mainland. There's very little
difference between SR's Japan, and Gibson's. Go back and read Neuromancer.

Wolfstar
Message no. 9
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 15:32:51 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-16 13:43:27 EDT, you write:

> No! Not again! We had that 'far more professional' thing when Berlin was
> introduced and it didn't work. Face it: Shadowrunners are street people.
> Maybe a few are former military or corps, but those tend to end up in the
> merc buisness. Even in Japan, shadowrunners aren't trained by the best of
> the best, just to get them out on the streets, they are former gang-
> members, guttertrash. And those will never become good enough to survive a
> single SR in Japan. O.K., you could train a runner in Seallte for - maybe
> - ten years and then send him to Japan, but that's a bit unlikely, right?

No. get a team of ex-SEALs to train your runner team, and you shouldn't have
any problem with most places. If you work as a unit, your efficiency goes
through the roof. Not to mention that shadowruns aren't expected in Japan. It
may be easier than you think.

Wolfstar
Message no. 10
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 15:07:19 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-17 07:08:22 EDT, you write:

> but America, but if this mailing-list is some what representive, than I'd
> say that SR-players are interested in anything they can get on anything. I
> have the feeling, that most people here would buy an Africa or Australia
> (one I'm waiting for since I first got my hands on SR) sourcebook.

Keep in mind that the over-abundance of books about places is what destroyed
the viability of Rifts. There's such a thing as too much information.

Wolfstar
Message no. 11
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 01:48:00 GMT
on 16.08.97 W0lfstar@***.COM wrote:

[Gibson's Japan vs. SR Japan]
W> Not really. Japan may be the shining example given for the cities of the
W> future, but I got news for you. They had to send the poor, destitute,
W> undesirables, and metas somewhere.

Yeah, they put them onto the islands, far away from the mainland.

W> Look for it, there's a sprawl in Japan,
W> it ain't lily-white, and it ain't on the mainland.

Well, the main island is just one perfectly clean city (with no privacy or
nature). The only (for SR) interesting places are those islands full of
refugees, but I doubt there is enough on these islands to write a whole
book about it (There's no industry, no corps, just ruins and squatters).
Maybe enough for a chapter in a book about the pacific rim...

W> There's very little difference between SR's Japan, and Gibson's.

Wrongo. Gibson's Japan is much dirtier than SRs. As someone pointed out
earlier, in SR Japan is very much like a big version of the 'raku
arcology: Completely controled with no room for poor or different people.

W> Go back and read Neuromancer.

Why? Did I miss some strange connection between SR and Gibson (except for
cyberspace (and the loa penetrating it), skillwires, simstim and stuff
like that)?

Tobias
## CrossPoint v3.1 ##
Message no. 12
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 02:23:00 GMT
on 16.08.97 W0lfstar@***.COM wrote:

W> > No! Not again! We had that 'far more professional' thing when Berlin was
W> > introduced and it didn't work. Face it: Shadowrunners are street people.
W> > Maybe a few are former military or corps, but those tend to end up in
W> > the merc buisness. Even in Japan, shadowrunners aren't trained by the
W> > best of the best, just to get them out on the streets, they are former
W> > gang- members, guttertrash. And those will never become good enough to
W> > survive a single SR in Japan. O.K., you could train a runner in Seallte
W> > for - maybe - ten years and then send him to Japan, but that's a bit
W> > unlikely, right?
W>
W> No. get a team of ex-SEALs to train your runner team,

Ever thought about the costs? (I played an ex-SEAL and *he* wouldn't have
done it for less than 200k)

W> and you shouldn't
W> have any problem with most places. If you work as a unit, your efficiency
W> goes through the roof.

Yup. Against human targets. Damn good tactics won't do any good when three
elementals and five Sentrys come out of nothing.

W> Not to mention that shadowruns aren't expected in
W> Japan. It may be easier than you think.

Guess why runners aren't expected in Japan! Right, because every damn
toilet features a camera, some microphones and an Ares Sentry with an HV-
LMG! They monitor everything and everybody there, just to make sure nobody
extracts someone with sensible information (and to make sure nobody sells
it to another corp). I guess all the security systems in Japan require
more horsepower than all of Seattle's computers can provide.

It's 6:30am. I've gotty get some sleep...

Tobias
## CrossPoint v3.1 ##
Message no. 13
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 17:04:06 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-17 15:59:33 EDT, you write:

> W> No. get a team of ex-SEALs to train your runner team,
>
> Ever thought about the costs? (I played an ex-SEAL and *he* wouldn't have
> done it for less than 200k)

I don't care about the costs. My team was trained by SEALs who work for our
Fixer. He won't send runs our way unless it's a minimum 5 figures for each
runner. He takes half, and provides services such as ammo replacement, gear
repair/replacement, etc. And, he never sends us on a bad run if he can help
it. If he gets tricked by a Johnson, guess what the SEALs do for an
afternoon? =)

> W> and you shouldn't
> W> have any problem with most places. If you work as a unit, your
efficiency
> W> goes through the roof.
>
> Yup. Against human targets. Damn good tactics won't do any good when three
> elementals and five Sentrys come out of nothing.

Damn good tactics say that you don't LET three Elementals and five Sentry's
come out of nothing. Scout ahead.

> W> Not to mention that shadowruns aren't expected in
> W> Japan. It may be easier than you think.
>
> Guess why runners aren't expected in Japan! Right, because every damn
> toilet features a camera, some microphones and an Ares Sentry with an HV-
> LMG! They monitor everything and everybody there, just to make sure nobody
> extracts someone with sensible information (and to make sure nobody sells
> it to another corp). I guess all the security systems in Japan require
> more horsepower than all of Seattle's computers can provide.

You do have a point there, but there's gotta be a way to pull it off.

> It's 6:30am. I've gotty get some sleep...

Sleep? Never heard of it. Is that what you do when your dead? =)

Wolfstar
Message no. 14
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 18:48:40 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-17 18:32:13 EDT, you write:

> W> Go back and read Neuromancer.
>
> Why? Did I miss some strange connection between SR and Gibson (except for
> cyberspace (and the loa penetrating it), skillwires, simstim and stuff
> like that)?

Chiba, man. Go across the bay from Chiba to Tokyo, and it's a whole 'nother
world. Those islands aren't too far out - the Japanese would want to keep
tabs on 'em - and I get the feeling that those islands are more like Chiba
than Barrens.

Wolfstar
Message no. 15
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 19:32:39 -0400
George Metz once dared to write,

> Keep in mind that the over-abundance of books about places is what destroyed
>the viability of Rifts. There's such a thing as too much information.

?????

I would accuse TSR's campaign worlds of that before I would Rifts.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 16
From: Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 02:20:36 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-17 18:38:12 EDT, W0lfstar@***.COM (George Metz)
writes:

> Keep in mind that the over-abundance of books about places is what
destroyed
> the viability of Rifts. There's such a thing as too much information.

True, but FASA is also putting the stuff out a lot slower than both TSR and
Rifts people, they put out too much too quickly and never were able to keep
their people interested in the game for long, FASA keeps wetting our apetites
every quarter so that way we'll keep on playing and buy the next sourcebook
...
Message no. 17
From: Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 02:11:39 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-17 18:32:22 EDT, you write:

> Well, the main island is just one perfectly clean city (with no privacy or
> nature). The only (for SR) interesting places are those islands full of
> refugees, but I doubt there is enough on these islands to write a whole
> book about it (There's no industry, no corps, just ruins and squatters).
> Maybe enough for a chapter in a book about the pacific rim...

Are you so certain that none of the megacorps are in Yomi, the island of the
exiles ? If you don't remember your history then perhaps watch Schindler's
List, the island would be ripe for cheap labor. Think of it, we will feed
and clothe you, you only have to work for us. If you do not then you will
die of starvation. It sounds chilling and maybe even unthought of, but so
did the people living next to Dachau who did not know what was going on in
the concentration camp.

No matter the veneer that Japan has on it's main streets, if you go far
enough away from them the dirtier they will become. And there is where lie
the shadows of society, the gaijin, the untouchables, the undesirables, for
after all, Japan is the nation with the largest number of Humanis Policlubs
in the World. BTW, I mean no offense to anyone with what I just wrote, but
Japan is a very conformistic society, and anything different is either
shunned or worse.
Message no. 18
From: Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 02:32:16 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-17 19:34:00 EDT, you write:

> > Guess why runners aren't expected in Japan! Right, because every damn
> > toilet features a camera, some microphones and an Ares Sentry with an
HV-
> > LMG! They monitor everything and everybody there, just to make sure
nobody
> > extracts someone with sensible information (and to make sure nobody
sells
> > it to another corp). I guess all the security systems in Japan require
> > more horsepower than all of Seattle's computers can provide.
>
> You do have a point there, but there's gotta be a way to pull it off.

From a corporate pov, having listening devices in the bathrooms would be
better and above all, cheaper than putting in something that will cost in the
excess of 50,000 nuyen at least.

Paranoia, gotta love it,

Mike
Message no. 19
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 03:28:25 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-18 02:21:18 EDT, you write:

> > Keep in mind that the over-abundance of books about places is what
destroyed
> > the viability of Rifts. There's such a thing as too much information.
>
> True, but FASA is also putting the stuff out a lot slower than both TSR
and
> Rifts people, they put out too much too quickly and never were able to
keep
> their people interested in the game for long, FASA keeps wetting our
apetites
> every quarter so that way we'll keep on playing and buy the next
sourcebook

Actually, what keeps me buying SR books isn't the spacing, although it does
help buffer the ol' wallet a bit, but that most of the books have a distinct
uniqueness about them. You're almost guaranteed to find something new in each
book they put out, with the exception of Edition Upgrades. Even then, there's
some stuff. The biggest problem with games like Rifts and AD&D is that
there's only so many ways to scramble an egg, so to speak, and every
sourcebook they come out with - with the exceptions of most of CJ Carella's
stuff - seems to include a same-weapon-different-name problem(Which I'm aware
exists in SR) and a same-OCC-different-skill-list pattern. It gets
exceptionally BORING.

Wolfstar
Message no. 20
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 04:01:22 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-18 03:21:46 EDT, you write:

> > Keep in mind that the over-abundance of books about places is what
destroyed
> >the viability of Rifts. There's such a thing as too much information.
>
> ?????
>
> I would accuse TSR's campaign worlds of that before I would Rifts.

Actually, no. The reason being is that the great majority of AD&D books that
TSR put out were "generic", in the sense that they could be used in any of
the campaign settings with very little or no modifications. Rifts, however,
has an overabundance of books that deal with certain regions of the world -
examples are Atlantis, England, South America - with 2 books - Africa,
Mexico(nominally), Germany(A full book and a sourcebook), the American West(2
books not counting Texas; counting Texas 3 with scatterings in other books)
two upcoming books on th Ohio Valley, one on Chi-Town/Chicago, and about 8
books - mostly "world" books - slated to come out in '98. See my point?

Wolfstar
Message no. 21
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 20:19:20 +1000
> > Keep in mind that the over-abundance of books about places is what destroyed
> >the viability of Rifts. There's such a thing as too much information.
>
> ?????
>
> I would accuse TSR's campaign worlds of that before I would Rifts.
>

With TSR, it was the over-abundance of _conflicting_ information that was
the kicker.

Marty
Message no. 22
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 13:13:24 +0100
| Actually, no. The reason being is that the great majority of AD&D books that
|TSR put out were "generic", in the sense that they could be used in any of
|the campaign settings with very little or no modifications. Rifts, however,
|has an overabundance of books that deal with certain regions of the world -
|examples are Atlantis, England, South America - with 2 books - Africa,
|Mexico(nominally), Germany(A full book and a sourcebook), the American West(2
|books not counting Texas; counting Texas 3 with scatterings in other books)
|two upcoming books on th Ohio Valley, one on Chi-Town/Chicago, and about 8
|books - mostly "world" books - slated to come out in '98. See my point?

You forgot Undersea and all the "Dimension books"...
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 23
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 14:35:05 EST
> W> Go back and read Neuromancer.
>
> Why? Did I miss some strange connection between SR and Gibson
> (except for cyberspace (and the loa penetrating it), skillwires,
> simstim and stuff like that)?

Not to mention Ziabatsu, New Yen, Chiba as techland, heck, even Zeiss
Optics is a direct steal from Gibson. While I am of the "it's okay
to steal if you improve on the original" crowd, I don't think the
scant "references" people keep using to claim Japan is one complete
clean corporate enclave are enough to justify your argument.

Someone said it's like one giant 'Raku arcology. THat's where
you're wrong...(assuming I accept your "its all arcologies"
argument)it'd be dozens of arcologies. Are you telling me that all
these corps sit next to each other and behave like good little boys
and girls? Corps? In the SR world? If you can say that then you
must play one naive runner....

If you have more than one corp, you have shadows, and runners. Maybe
they need to run a cleaner act, but that won't prevent them from
existing.

(EVen Denver, home of Damien has runners, and that's almost entirely
one corp, not several like Nippon is)
Message no. 24
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 14:37:12 EST
> Guess why runners aren't expected in Japan! Right, because every
> damn toilet features a camera, some microphones and an Ares Sentry
> with an HV- LMG! They monitor everything and everybody there, just
> to make sure nobody extracts someone with sensible information (and
> to make sure nobody sells it to another corp). I guess all the
> security systems in Japan require more horsepower than all of
> Seattle's computers can provide.

Its the same arguement that Security has to deal with
everywhere....its only worth it to pay for that security to a
point....after that, its costing more than you save. Security has to
strike a happy balance with the bean-counters. And that happy
balance ALWAYS has holes in it for runners.
Message no. 25
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 14:48:55 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-18 08:14:46 EDT, you write:

> | Actually, no. The reason being is that the great majority of AD&D books
that
> |TSR put out were "generic", in the sense that they could be used in any
of
> |the campaign settings with very little or no modifications. Rifts,
however,
> |has an overabundance of books that deal with certain regions of the world
-
<Snip bad book list>

> You forgot Undersea and all the "Dimension books"...

No I didn't. I see Underseas as about as close to a completely different
setting as you can humanly get while still on the same planet. The Dimension
books detail different universes. I was listing books that detail part of
Earth.

Wolfstar
Message no. 26
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 19:44:36 +0100
In message <6c3FMoUgX3B@****.komet.teuto.de>, Tobias Berghoff
<Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE> writes
>on 16.08.97 W0lfstar@***.COM wrote:
>W> and you shouldn't
>W> have any problem with most places. If you work as a unit, your efficiency
>W> goes through the roof.
>
>Yup. Against human targets. Damn good tactics won't do any good when three
>elementals and five Sentrys come out of nothing.

Why maintain all those elementals and Sentry guns and security troops -
all expensive drains on your balance sheet - when shadowruns don't
happen at all anyway?

>W> Not to mention that shadowruns aren't expected in
>W> Japan. It may be easier than you think.
>
>Guess why runners aren't expected in Japan! Right, because every damn
>toilet features a camera, some microphones and an Ares Sentry with an HV-
>LMG!

Uh, right. Accidental discharge, anyone?

How many toilets are there in Japan? How many guards do you need to
monitor all these units? How much did this scheme cost?

Sorry, but this is kind of silly. This wastes huge numbers of resources
that could be better channeled into making money for the corporation.

> They monitor everything and everybody there, just to make sure nobody
>extracts someone with sensible information (and to make sure nobody sells
>it to another corp). I guess all the security systems in Japan require
>more horsepower than all of Seattle's computers can provide.

Then why not do this everywhere, since it works so well?

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 27
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 15:08:55 EST
> largest number of Humanis Policlubs in the World. BTW, I mean no
> offense to anyone with what I just wrote, but Japan is a very
> conformistic society, and anything different is either shunned or
> worse.

What people have to remember is that the appearance of conforming
does not change the variety and complexity of the people...just the
public image of them.
Message no. 28
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 15:10:00 EST
> > Keep in mind that the over-abundance of books about places is what
> destroyed
> > the viability of Rifts. There's such a thing as too much information.
>
> True, but FASA is also putting the stuff out a lot slower than both
> TSR and Rifts people, they put out too much too quickly and never
> were able to keep their people interested in the game for long, FASA
> keeps wetting our apetites every quarter so that way we'll keep on
> playing and buy the next sourcebook ...

And FASA has tied their game-world to a real-time calendar, and thus
their world evolve, something that other worlds didn't. ( afew would
have some eras you could play in, but no continuious evolution)
Message no. 29
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 15:41:57 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-18 15:15:40 EDT, you write:

> > True, but FASA is also putting the stuff out a lot slower than both
> > TSR and Rifts people, they put out too much too quickly and never
> > were able to keep their people interested in the game for long, FASA
> > keeps wetting our apetites every quarter so that way we'll keep on
> > playing and buy the next sourcebook ...
>
> And FASA has tied their game-world to a real-time calendar, and thus
> their world evolve, something that other worlds didn't. ( afew would
> have some eras you could play in, but no continuious evolution)

Nope, actually. Rifts has a definitive timeline, and books are dated
corresponding to when they came out. Currently, if you look hard enough in
the right books, Rifts is set in the 2390's. There are also a few other games
out with actual, definitive story movement due to the advancing of time.

Wolfstar
Message no. 30
From: "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 16:29:48 -0500
You wrote:
> BTW, I mean no offense to anyone with what I just wrote, but
> Japan is a very conformistic society, and anything different is either
> shunned or worse.
Just for the record, in my experience in the U.S., we can be damned
conformist, and we shun those who are different, if not worse. My experiences
from middle and high school are enough to have taught me that, and I wasn't
really all that 'different' then. I think it's something seen in all cultures,
pretty much without exception, and with even little variation in degree. What
varies is what is seen as different enough to cause a stir.

losthalo
Message no. 31
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 04:31:10 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-18 20:57:03 EDT, you write:

> Just for the record, in my experience in the U.S., we can be damned
> conformist, and we shun those who are different, if not worse. My
experiences
> from middle and high school are enough to have taught me that, and I
wasn't
> really all that 'different' then. I think it's something seen in all
cultures,
> pretty much without exception, and with even little variation in degree.
What
> varies is what is seen as different enough to cause a stir.

That's High School for you. I've noticed that when you get out past that,
and even(At least in my school) in Senior year that begins to vanish, and
you're accepted more or less for who you are, not who knows you. In what is
traditionally called the college years or generation X, this problem
disappears altogether, only to end up coming back upon entering the business
world. Japan, OTOH, doesn't seem to EVER let up, and they are degrees of
magnitude worse about their response to breaking with "tradition".

Wolfstar
Message no. 32
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 14:24:33 EST
> That's High School for you. I've noticed that when you get out past
> that,
> and even(At least in my school) in Senior year that begins to
> vanish, and you're accepted more or less for who you are, not who

Then you have led an easy and sheltered life. It only becomes more
subtle (and often not even that) after HS.

> knows you. In what is traditionally called the college years or
> generation X, this problem disappears altogether, only to end up
> coming back upon entering the business world. Japan, OTOH, doesn't
> seem to EVER let up, and they are degrees of magnitude worse about
> their response to breaking with "tradition".

I'd say you might not want to assume too much about Japan...I don't
want to start a flame war, but you might want to think about the
source of your information....if you are refering to things that
"Everyone knows", or just things "you've heard", then I wouldn't rely
on it too much. From what I know, Yes, Japanese society can be harsh
to those that don't follow the rules. But realize it doesn't mean
they are all clones and conformists, just that those society rejects
are more noticeable.
Message no. 33
From: "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 17:42:54 -0500
You wrote:
> That's High School for you. I've noticed that when you get out past that,
> and even(At least in my school) in Senior year that begins to vanish, and
> you're accepted more or less for who you are, not who knows you. In what is
> traditionally called the college years or generation X, this problem
> disappears altogether, only to end up coming back upon entering the business
> world. Japan, OTOH, doesn't seem to EVER let up, and they are degrees of
> magnitude worse about their response to breaking with "tradition".

Wrong. I see it in people my age (~23, college age) and I see it in my
parents, and I see it in old people, and I saw it in teenagers when I was one,
and I don't think I was an 'exception'.

losthalo
Message no. 34
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 06:08:20 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-19 17:44:41 EDT, you write:

> > That's High School for you. I've noticed that when you get out past
that,
> > and even(At least in my school) in Senior year that begins to vanish,
and
> > you're accepted more or less for who you are, not who knows you. In what
is
> > traditionally called the college years or generation X, this problem
> > disappears altogether, only to end up coming back upon entering the
business
> > world. Japan, OTOH, doesn't seem to EVER let up, and they are degrees of
> > magnitude worse about their response to breaking with "tradition".
>
> Wrong. I see it in people my age (~23, college age) and I see it in my
> parents, and I see it in old people, and I saw it in teenagers when I was
one,
> and I don't think I was an 'exception'.

Okay, you see it in people in OUR age(I'm 22, close enough). Do you pay
attention? How many people actually CARE what their peers think at our age?
Not many, IMHO, unless it's MAYBE the Ivy League college crowd. And the fact
remains that Japan is infinitely more strict about it.

Wolfstar
Message no. 35
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 07:00:27 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-20 03:09:06 EDT, you write:

> > That's High School for you. I've noticed that when you get out past
that,
> > and even(At least in my school) in Senior year that begins to
> > vanish, and you're accepted more or less for who you are, not who
>
> Then you have led an easy and sheltered life. It only becomes more
> subtle (and often not even that) after HS.

Hmm, maybe I am lucky. I've had the same core group of friends since middle
school. We trust each other implicitly, and most of us are completely
different from one another. Only two of us give two dreks about what Joe
Average thinks, and that's because of their line of work.
It must be rough paying attention to peer pressure.

> > knows you. In what is traditionally called the college years or
> > generation X, this problem disappears altogether, only to end up
> > coming back upon entering the business world. Japan, OTOH, doesn't
> > seem to EVER let up, and they are degrees of magnitude worse about
> > their response to breaking with "tradition".
>
> I'd say you might not want to assume too much about Japan...I don't
> want to start a flame war,

Not wanting to start a flame war is admirable. I would recommend that
hitting that close to the waistline isn't a good way to avoid one though.

> but you might want to think about the
> source of your information....if you are refering to things that
> "Everyone knows", or just things "you've heard", then I wouldn't
rely
> on it too much. From what I know, Yes, Japanese society can be harsh
> to those that don't follow the rules. But realize it doesn't mean
> they are all clones and conformists, just that those society rejects
> are more noticeable.

The sources of my information are people who study several forms of Japanese
martial arts, speak the language, and a few who have spent extended periods
of time in Japan. Conformity is an ancient tradition in the orient, as is not
giving offense.

Wolfstar
Message no. 36
From: David Hinkley <dhinkley@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 01:45:51 +0000
On 18 Aug 97 at 14:37, Brett Borger wrote:

>
> Its the same arguement that Security has to deal with
> everywhere....its only worth it to pay for that security to a
> point....after that, its costing more than you save. Security has to
> strike a happy balance with the bean-counters. And that happy
> balance ALWAYS has holes in it for runners.
>
Don't forget the other balance, the one betweeen secuity and the rest
of the work force. There is a tendency for workers only to follow
those security policies that they think are both necessary and
reasonable. The rest they ignore, pay lip service to, or work around.
For example, a requirement that computer acess passwords be changed
weekly results in "hiden" written cpoies near the terminal; or
stringent inventory requirements for classified documents at check
out and return often results in documents being "secured" in locked
desk dawers durn lunch and coffee breaks. Then there is the courtesy
factor, people holding card acess doors open for the person with his
arms full of boxes, "after all he did have a badge". Granted some
firms are tighter then others, but holes like this exist with every
firm. This balance is any thing but happy, and it always has BIG
HOLES for runners to use...IF they can find them.




David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org

====================================================
Those who are too intelligent to engage in politics
are punished by being governed by those who are not
--Plato

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Cyberpirates CHEERS, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!