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Message no. 1
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS (was: Re: Miami (Florida) in the 6th
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 22:26:26 -0400
At 07:31 PM 8/7/97 -0400, J. Keith Henry wrote these timeless words:

>Until they publish hardcore material on Azania and/or Japan, I am certain we
>won't be really satiated. IF anything, this is going to tempt us that much
>more.
>
Ok... Mike commented on both of these areas, since they are asked about so
often...

Azania -- "Do we really want ANOTHER Nazi Elven nation?"

Japan -- No reason to do much with Japan, outside of describing it briefly.
Between racial meta-racial prejudices, and the fact that the corps control
things so tightly, you can't really do much in Japan, unless you want to
plan a Japanese Human working strictly for one corp.

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

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Message no. 2
From: Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS (was: Re: Miami (Florida) in the 6th
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 21:36:55 -0500
At 10:26 PM 8/11/97 -0400, you wrote:
#At 07:31 PM 8/7/97 -0400, J. Keith Henry wrote these timeless words:
#
#>Until they publish hardcore material on Azania and/or Japan, I am certain we
#>won't be really satiated. IF anything, this is going to tempt us that much
#>more.
#>
#Ok... Mike commented on both of these areas, since they are asked about so
#often...

did he by chance mention Australia??
--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/
Message no. 3
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS (was: Re: Miami (Florida) in the 6th
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 23:07:31 -0400
At 09:36 PM 8/11/97 -0500, Jaymz wrote these timeless words:
>At 10:26 PM 8/11/97 -0400, you wrote:
>#At 07:31 PM 8/7/97 -0400, J. Keith Henry wrote these timeless words:
>#
>#>Until they publish hardcore material on Azania and/or Japan, I am
certain we
>#>won't be really satiated. IF anything, this is going to tempt us that much
>#>more.
>#>
>#Ok... Mike commented on both of these areas, since they are asked about so
>#often...
>
>did he by chance mention Australia??
>
Yes... i believe I commented on it in another post somewhere around
here... if you didn;t see it, let me know and I'll give you a rundown on
why that books not out and why you won;t see it for a while thru private
mail...

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
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List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"Hmmm, time for a new .sig file"
Message no. 4
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS (was: Re: Miami (Florida) in the 6th
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 23:50:17 -0400
At 03:51 AM 8/12/97 +0100, Avenger wrote these timeless words:
>In article <3.0.16.19970811214536.2f5f08e4@*****.com>, Bull
><chaos@*****.COM> rambled on endlessly about Cyberpirates CHEERS (was:

>>Japan -- No reason to do much with Japan, outside of describing it briefly.
>> Between racial meta-racial prejudices, and the fact that the corps control
>>things so tightly, you can't really do much in Japan, unless you want to
>>plan a Japanese Human working strictly for one corp.
>
>Considering the amount of cultural and financial influence Japan has on
>the Shadowrun milieu, and the concentration of japanese influence
>throughout the genre, this seems to be a strange attitude indeed. Even
>CP2020 admits a considerable influence from Japan in the genre.
>
Influence, yes. And they do a great job of showing that influence
throughout the game. But look at the what little has been stated about
Japan so far, and not all of this is Mike's fault. He's stuck with trying
to deal with what came before.

Japan is, for all intents and purposes, a Giant Corporate Enclave. Sure,
there are multiple corps, but... There isn;t much else to it. The few
hard references to Japan pretty much say that you're either a human corp
boy, a lowlife metahuman used as slave labor for the corps, or you're stuck
on one of several islands around the main part of Japan, exiled there by
"Mainland" Japan.

That sort of limits what you can do there a lot.

This is not to say that Japan won;t ever appear in a sourcebook somewhere
along the line. Mike never said (Nor did I say that he said) that they
would never do a book for Japan. just right now, there's nothing he can
think of to do with Japan, noone has come up with any fantastic ways to use
Japan in any other fashion, and so it's one of those nice unformed areas of
the SR world.

>And to state that "you can't really do much in Japan" is irresponsible
>and wasteful.
>
Well... You are, unfortunately, limited in what you can do right now. It
would be cool if you wanted to play a strike team belonging to Fuchi, but
you're always working for Fuchi then. In a place as small as japan is,
there's no real shadows to hide in, and the majority of your players,
characters, etc aren'yt going to find it useful. At least, I'm assuming
that's is reasoning...

>Maybe someone ought to consider buying the Bubblegum Crisis information
>for Mike, and showing him what can be done with Japan. Even with major
>corporations ruling the place. Or should I say, "especially" with
>corporations ruling the place. It might also be an idea to point him in
>the direction of the African and Japanese Sourcebook (World Book 4 & 8)
>for Rifts. Seems that other game manufacturers aren't thinking that
>these areas are pointless. Thinking about it, Rifts also have two South
>American Sourcebooks available... OK, so the game is geared towards
>Munchies, so what, the source material is good.
>
Well, no one said FASA refused to do anything with Africa... They just
don;t want to deal with Azania. Unfortunately, Azania is there, and
there's nothing to be done about it. however, it can be downplayed.
Azania does not equal Africa though, fortunately...

In fact, in that vein, Cyberpirates will include a write up of the Ivory
Coast, so they ARE doing stuff with Africa.

And since you mention South America (and therefore Amazonia), I'll give you
Mike's comments on that as well.

Basically, that's another area that's tough to define in Shadowrun terms.
I mean, if yoiu wanted to play a agme about slogging through the jungles,
you'ld be playing a different game. Shadowrun isn;t about that, and until
they can find a way to really link it and make it truly useful to
"Shadowrunners", they're not gonna d anything with it. Plus, it smacks of
yet even more IE style mystical and all powerful creatures.

The thing is, Mike is trying to turn the game's focus back on where it
should be, the Shadowrunners. Right now, Japan, or Azania, or Australia,
or wherever would make nice back\drops for an adventure or two, but they're
not going to make for great settings for a campign, unless you want to run
a specialized campaign (Freedom fighters in Azania, a Corp Strike team in
Japan, etc). But those types of games aren;t the focus of Shadowrun. It's
a game about "Crime and Criminals" (Another Mike M. Quote :)).

<shrug> WHo knows. With the focus going back to corps next year, maybe
we'll see another Target book aimed around Corps that includes Japan.

That's the other thing. Mike is trying to focus and "link" the Shadowrun
products more closely than they were before. Sourcebooks, adventure books,
and novels will tie in more closely with the "Back Story" than before.
you're seeing it now, with Underworld, Mob War, Cyberpirates, target:
Smugglers, etc. thesea re all part of the "Year of Crime". Before we had
the elction stuff.

Anyways,. I'm rambling... See ya! :]

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
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List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"Hmmm, time for a new .sig file"
Message no. 5
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS (was: Re: Miami (Florida) in the 6th
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:23:47 EST
> Japan is, for all intents and purposes, a Giant Corporate Enclave.
> Sure, there are multiple corps, but... There isn;t much else to it.
> The few hard references to Japan pretty much say that you're either
> a human corp boy, a lowlife metahuman used as slave labor for the
> corps, or you're stuck on one of several islands around the main
> part of Japan, exiled there by "Mainland" Japan.

Wait...Japan, the home of technology, the origins of the megacorp,
breeding ground of the yakuza, neighbors to the Seoulpa and Triads,
Center of intrigue, politics, corps, and cyber, and there is nothing
for Shadowrunners?

Read some Gibson.

I mean, okay, you have your "it's just a chain of islands" argument,
but most of us could play for a year (RL) without our runners leaving
Seattle....An entire Island Nation gives us a lot more to deal with.

Not to mention the rich mystical mythologies and cultures to draw
upon.

Basically, Shadowrun reeks of Japanese influence....why would there
be little in Japan?

I understand your jungle arguements, but not this one.
Message no. 6
From: Michael Broadwater <mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS (was: Re: Miami (Florida) in the 6th
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:32:09 -0500
At 01:23 PM 8/12/97 EST, Brett Borger wrote:
>> Japan is, for all intents and purposes, a Giant Corporate Enclave.
>> Sure, there are multiple corps, but... There isn;t much else to it.
>> The few hard references to Japan pretty much say that you're either
>> a human corp boy, a lowlife metahuman used as slave labor for the
>> corps, or you're stuck on one of several islands around the main
>> part of Japan, exiled there by "Mainland" Japan.

>Basically, Shadowrun reeks of Japanese influence....why would there
>be little in Japan?
>
>I understand your jungle arguements, but not this one.
>
Japan doesn't work well for these reasons:

A). You either work for the corp or
B). You're a metahuman, and slave labor or exiled (there go all the meta
characters. Fun, eh?) or
C). You're dead.

Lots 'o options, huh? This is Sr, not Gibson that we play, and that's how
Sr Japan is. How many Shadowrunners live in the Renraku Arcology? Zero.
How many live in Japan? Well, it's several large Arcologies. Several
times zero is zero.



Rasputin-the-no-fancy-middle-name-in-dashes-right-now-magekin
http://www.bcl.net/~rasputin
http://www.blackhand.org/

The dumber people think you are, the more surprised they're going to be
when you kill them. -- William Clayton
Message no. 7
From: Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS (was: Re: Miami (Florida) in the 6th
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:31:31 -0500
At 12:32 PM 8/12/97 -0500, you wrote:
#At 01:23 PM 8/12/97 EST, Brett Borger wrote:
#A). You either work for the corp or
#B). You're a metahuman, and slave labor or exiled (there go all the meta
#characters. Fun, eh?) or
#C). You're dead.
#
#Lots 'o options, huh? This is Sr, not Gibson that we play, and that's how
#Sr Japan is. How many Shadowrunners live in the Renraku Arcology? Zero.
#How many live in Japan? Well, it's several large Arcologies. Several
#times zero is zero.

come on!

Japan isn't a TINY island, have you ever watched the Discovery channel?
There is a LOT of rural and suburban Japan. The proportions might not be
the same as that in a bigger country like the USA, but Japan IS a LOT
bigger than Seattle!

And just imagine going through those underwater tunnels that link the
islands by train. Sorta like "Daylight", but good.

;)
--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/
Message no. 8
From: Michael Broadwater <mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS (was: Re: Miami (Florida) in the 6th
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:48:40 -0500
At 12:31 PM 8/12/97 -0500, Jaymz wrote:
>At 12:32 PM 8/12/97 -0500, you wrote:

>#A). You either work for the corp or
>#B). You're a metahuman, and slave labor or exiled (there go all the meta
>#characters. Fun, eh?) or
>#C). You're dead.
>#
>#Lots 'o options, huh? This is Sr, not Gibson that we play, and that's how
>#Sr Japan is. How many Shadowrunners live in the Renraku Arcology? Zero.
>#How many live in Japan? Well, it's several large Arcologies. Several
>#times zero is zero.
>
>come on!
>
>Japan isn't a TINY island, have you ever watched the Discovery channel?
>There is a LOT of rural and suburban Japan. The proportions might not be
>the same as that in a bigger country like the USA, but Japan IS a LOT
>bigger than Seattle!
>
>And just imagine going through those underwater tunnels that link the
>islands by train. Sorta like "Daylight", but good.

And it's 61 years in the future. Most countries are pretty damn big, but
when they're run by a police state (which is basically what a corp amounts
to) there isn't a lot of crime. Crime is bad for the workers, what's bad
for the workers is bad for the product, bad product doesn't sell in a
competitive market, ie: keep crime low, at whatever cost. Imperial Japan
in 2057 is not the Japan of today. I think that some info needs to be done
on it, so that people know what's going on, but it doesn't need it's own
sourcebook. Japan just isn't as loosely controlled/regulated as Seattle or
most of the UCAS is in 2057.




Rasputin-the-no-fancy-middle-name-in-dashes-right-now-magekin
http://www.bcl.net/~rasputin
http://www.blackhand.org/

The dumber people think you are, the more surprised they're going to be
when you kill them. -- William Clayton
Message no. 9
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS (was: Re: Miami (Florida) in the 6th
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:48:47 EST
> Japan doesn't work well for these reasons:
>
> A). You either work for the corp or
> B). You're a metahuman, and slave labor or exiled (there go all the
> meta characters. Fun, eh?) or C). You're dead.
>
> Lots 'o options, huh? This is Sr, not Gibson that we play, and
> that's how Sr Japan is. How many Shadowrunners live in the Renraku
> Arcology? Zero. How many live in Japan? Well, it's several large
> Arcologies. Several times zero is zero.

Okay. Where do you get that info for Japan? I got an impression of
lots of huge corps crammed together, which leaves lots of tiny
shadows to work in. Corps breed shadowrunners. IF FASA had
announced anything about what Japan was like, I missed it (they
could've...if so, point it out to me)

I could always argue that arcology bit, but that really isn't my
point, so...
Message no. 10
From: Michael Broadwater <mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS (was: Re: Miami (Florida) in the 6th
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:01:37 -0500
At 01:48 PM 8/12/97 EST, Brett Borger wrote:
>> Japan doesn't work well for these reasons:
>>
>> A). You either work for the corp or
>> B). You're a metahuman, and slave labor or exiled (there go all the
>> meta characters. Fun, eh?) or C). You're dead.
>>
>> Lots 'o options, huh? This is Sr, not Gibson that we play, and
>> that's how Sr Japan is. How many Shadowrunners live in the Renraku
>> Arcology? Zero. How many live in Japan? Well, it's several large
>> Arcologies. Several times zero is zero.
>
>Okay. Where do you get that info for Japan? I got an impression of
>lots of huge corps crammed together, which leaves lots of tiny
>shadows to work in. Corps breed shadowrunners. IF FASA had
>announced anything about what Japan was like, I missed it (they
>could've...if so, point it out to me)

This was Mike M.'s reasoning for not doing a Japan book.


Rasputin-the-no-fancy-middle-name-in-dashes-right-now-magekin
http://www.bcl.net/~rasputin
http://www.blackhand.org/

The dumber people think you are, the more surprised they're going to be
when you kill them. -- William Clayton
Message no. 11
From: Skye Comstock <bilbo@****.NWLINK.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS (was: Re: Miami (Florida) in the 6th
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 11:14:13 -0800
>Japan doesn't work well for these reasons:
>
>A). You either work for the corp or
>B). You're a metahuman, and slave labor or exiled (there go all the meta
>characters. Fun, eh?) or
>C). You're dead.
>
>Lots 'o options, huh? This is Sr, not Gibson that we play, and that's how
>Sr Japan is. How many Shadowrunners live in the Renraku Arcology? Zero.
>How many live in Japan? Well, it's several large Arcologies. Several
>times zero is zero.

That is like... so much bullshit. I really, really do not see how Japan
has been reduced to "several large Arcologies." IIRC, Japan is as big
as Cali (more or less). At the moment, all of the major population
centers are located on the outter perimeter, where the fish are. There's
big money there, so all the huge cities are there.

It would be the same in SR, with krill. The inner part of Japan is
mountainous in most places, so it is very hard to have large cities.
There, you have farms. Farms with soy, rice, etc, etc.

I suppose if Japan has been reduced to the ruling corps, and everyone
works for them like they did back when there were Shoguns, then yeah,
what's the point? If everyone has to pay taxes to an administration,
and report everything they do, and everywhere they go... They're
highly oppressed and that has to make for *something* to do.

I'd like to believe that there is a large underground community in
the mountains and less populated places. They haven't paved
over everything, after all.

Of course, I already ranted in a different post and I should probably
just shut up since it won't matter anyway.

-Skye
Message no. 12
From: Michael Broadwater <mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS (was: Re: Miami (Florida) in the 6th
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:30:49 -0500
At 11:14 AM 8/12/97 -0800, Skye Comstock wrote:
>>Japan doesn't work well for these reasons:
>>
>>A). You either work for the corp or
>>B). You're a metahuman, and slave labor or exiled (there go all the meta
>>characters. Fun, eh?) or
>>C). You're dead.
>>
>>Lots 'o options, huh? This is Sr, not Gibson that we play, and that's how
>>Sr Japan is. How many Shadowrunners live in the Renraku Arcology? Zero.
>>How many live in Japan? Well, it's several large Arcologies. Several
>>times zero is zero.
>
>That is like... so much bullshit.

Well, that's the reasons given for why FASA isn't doing a sourcebook on it.
So, if you think that's bullshit (doesn't bother me any, not my ideas)
then do with it what you want. I always thought that was an option. Me, I
just don't find Japan that interesting.


Rasputin-the-no-fancy-middle-name-in-dashes-right-now-magekin
http://www.bcl.net/~rasputin
http://www.blackhand.org/

The dumber people think you are, the more surprised they're going to be
when you kill them. -- William Clayton
Message no. 13
From: Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS (was: Re: Miami (Florida) in the 6th
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:48:46 -0500
At 12:48 PM 8/12/97 -0500, Rasputin wrote:
#At 12:31 PM 8/12/97 -0500, Jaymz wrote:
#>At 12:32 PM 8/12/97 -0500, you wrote:
#
#>#Lots 'o options, huh? This is Sr, not Gibson that we play, and that's how
#>#Sr Japan is. How many Shadowrunners live in the Renraku Arcology? Zero.
#>#How many live in Japan? Well, it's several large Arcologies. Several
#>#times zero is zero.
#>
#>come on!
#>
#>Japan isn't a TINY island, have you ever watched the Discovery channel?
#>There is a LOT of rural and suburban Japan. The proportions might not be
#>the same as that in a bigger country like the USA, but Japan IS a LOT
#>bigger than Seattle!
#>
#>And just imagine going through those underwater tunnels that link the
#>islands by train. Sorta like "Daylight", but good.
#
#And it's 61 years in the future. Most countries are pretty damn big, but
#when they're run by a police state (which is basically what a corp amounts
#to) there isn't a lot of crime. Crime is bad for the workers, what's bad
#for the workers is bad for the product, bad product doesn't sell in a
#competitive market, ie: keep crime low, at whatever cost. Imperial Japan
#in 2057 is not the Japan of today. I think that some info needs to be done
#on it, so that people know what's going on, but it doesn't need it's own
#sourcebook. Japan just isn't as loosely controlled/regulated as Seattle or
#most of the UCAS is in 2057.

But as I said, Japan is not a SMALL piece of land! It's several LARGE Islands,
sure the island with Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki (I *think* they are all
on the same Island, been years since I did geography) would be pretty crime
free, and lots of corps would rule it, BUT, there are several OTHER islands
that I'm sure have LOTS of shadows. And because of the proximity of the
other Islands it would be pretty easy to have a home base on these while
running against corps on the bigger Island(s).

Plus it's close nough to China to have a base somwhere there.

Justin
--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/
Message no. 14
From: Skye Comstock <bilbo@****.NWLINK.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS (was: Re: Miami (Florida) in the 6th
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:18:44 -0800
>But as I said, Japan is not a SMALL piece of land! It's several LARGE Islands,
>sure the island with Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki (I *think* they are all
>on the same Island, been years since I did geography) would be pretty crime
>free, and lots of corps would rule it, BUT, there are several OTHER islands
>that I'm sure have LOTS of shadows. And because of the proximity of the
>other Islands it would be pretty easy to have a home base on these while
>running against corps on the bigger Island(s).

Just quit arguing, Mike said what he said and that's the way things
will be for Shadowrun. If anyone wants to use Japan, there are
good net supplements out there and the Japanese version of
Shadowrun is available to anyone that goes there.

No sense in arguing with a brick wall, anyway.

-Skye
Message no. 15
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS (was: Re: Miami (Florida) in the 6th
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 16:44:24 EST
> And it's 61 years in the future. Most countries are pretty damn
> big, but when they're run by a police state (which is basically what
> a corp amounts to) there isn't a lot of crime. Crime is bad for the


I'd disagree on two points here:

1) A corp might be a police state, but multiple corps aren't. Corps
breed runners. Your Japan of 2057 would greatly resemble the Japan
after (one of the) unification under a Shogun...everybody is too
ruled by discipline, honor, and fear to make any overt moves....but
behind the scenes its a figurative bloodbath. If your runner can do
a job without making a bang, (s)he can find a job in Japan.

2) A police state doesn't stop crime overall, just certain kinds. AS
I see it, runners, QUALITY runners, would thrive in this environment.
I mean Japan is the birthplace of the yakuza. You don't have trolls
toting miniguns, but you have a great deal of skilled runs going on.

Check your SR Novels. While they aren't canon as far as rules go,
they have tried to be very true to the SR world (that is the basic
point, after all), and Japan has been a runner world (a very
different world, but still a world, just as Seattle has).

> whatever cost. Imperial Japan in 2057 is not the Japan of today. I
> think that some info needs to be done on it, so that people know
> what's going on, but it doesn't need it's own sourcebook. Japan
> just isn't as loosely controlled/regulated as Seattle or most of the
> UCAS is in 2057.

You still have powerful corporations in strife=Money in runners
pockets. Add in cutting edge tech and Japanese culture, and you have
an area sufficeintly powerful and different to deserve its own info.
While I buy Sourcebooks, I understand the logic behind the Target:
series. You can lump most of the East Asian countries into their own
book.

My main complaint is that I see absolutely no evidence for excluding
Japan when so many elements given so far would state that it would be
a very viable world (if not so great for the
hack-and-slash-with-big-booms crowd.)
Message no. 16
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS (was: Re: Miami (Florida) in the 6th
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 16:48:34 EST
> I suppose if Japan has been reduced to the ruling corps, and
> everyone works for them like they did back when there were Shoguns,
> then yeah, what's the point? If everyone has to pay taxes to an

Actually, the first bit of Japanese history will tell you that the
world under the Shoguns wasn't all that peaceful...there were merely
fewer armies :). In truth, a Shogun made himself a big target, while
everyone else was afraid to hit him first because they'd expose their
(figurative) flank. Kind of like MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction,
for you non-80's kinder) on a smaller scale. The main difference was
that a veneer of total accceptance of position was on everyone else.

Much like the Generals that constantly take over in Southern American
countries, but with much more style.
Message no. 17
From: Skye Comstock <bilbo@****.NWLINK.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS (was: Re: Miami (Florida) in the 6th
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:19:07 -0800
>> I suppose if Japan has been reduced to the ruling corps, and
>> everyone works for them like they did back when there were Shoguns,
>> then yeah, what's the point? If everyone has to pay taxes to an
>
>Actually, the first bit of Japanese history will tell you that the
>world under the Shoguns wasn't all that peaceful...there were merely
>fewer armies :). In truth, a Shogun made himself a big target, while
>everyone else was afraid to hit him first because they'd expose their
>(figurative) flank. Kind of like MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction,
>for you non-80's kinder) on a smaller scale. The main difference was
>that a veneer of total accceptance of position was on everyone else.

And when the Shogun was hit, all hell broke loose, right?

Has there been any real material on how the mega-corps of Japan
share the power? I haven't read Shadowfiles in a long time, so
I can't even remember which corp is the largest, but wouldn't
the head of the largest corp be the "Shogun" with the others
being Lords and such?

Each would have control over their territory, and would report
to the Shogun every now and again. Would there not be certain
jobs for Shadowrunners that would involve embarassing the
different corporations and their territory? I'd hate to
see a corporate head that had just lost face with the rest
of them... Can anyone say War? ;)

>Much like the Generals that constantly take over in Southern American
>countries, but with much more style.

On a related note, I was watching some news show on tv and they
had footage of the drug lords firing machine guns over the city,
it was amazing. Tracer rounds flying accross the sky, you could
even hear the gunfire.

It's easier to put things in perspective when you see something
crazy like that. The police couldn't do anything at all, and
even if they could, I doubt they would.

-Skye
-- Don't mind me, I have mood swings and most of my posts
are made when I'm pissy. :P
Message no. 18
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS (was: Re: Miami (Florida) in the 6th
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 20:55:37 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-12 02:53:34 EDT, you write:

>
> Of course not, so change it. That would seem to be the logical step
> would it not? Do away with the IE, nobodies going to miss them anyway.
>
>
Hey, an idea. What about a really big nasty spell, cast by say either
Aztlan, a couple Great Dragons (who are afraid the elves are the one's behind
"D"'s death), or perhaps the Ordo.

Call It "The Gathering"....all immortals feel a compelling urge to seek each
other and beat the immortal tar out of each other. The ensuing fighting
would be cool, if not outright devastating.

They all die but one, that one probably winds up being Ehran or Harley, and
then the rest of the world is done with them, because all that power could
indicate divine ascension at that point.

EOD (End of Discussion) as we say here.
-K
Message no. 19
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS (was: Re: Miami (Florida) in the 6th
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 00:46:59 +0100
In message <v03007802b015ad630552@[204.96.67.145]>, Skye Comstock
<bilbo@****.nwlink.com> writes
>>I wrote..

Sorry Skye, this came to me via private mail, and I figured it was
intended for the list, and is forwarded here as is... :)

>>>Azania -- "Do we really want ANOTHER Nazi Elven nation?"
>>
>>Of course not, so change it. That would seem to be the logical step
>>would it not? Do away with the IE, nobodies going to miss them anyway.
>
>I agree with you there.

Dangerous decision. Nobody agrees with me on this list and lives to
enjoy it. Don't know why, but it seems to be historical. <g>

>If the only thing holding back an Africa
>sourcebook is Azania, don't talk about it. Who is going to get mad?
>It's only been mentioned a handfull of times, right? Put in a
>couple little comments and leave it be. Frag the damned Elves

Absolutely. However, it would be kinda nice to have a final decision on
the elven super nation of Azania. Maybe some scientific experiment that
has gone wrong and released a deadly plague into the Shadowrun milieu
that only affects immortal elves, killing them within 48 hours.

Or just do to Azania what they did to Scotland, Wales and the
Netherlands - arbitrarily destroy them.

>and
>move on. I want to know about Egypt, the pyramids, all of that.
>What about the Congo? Have to be some killer Awakened creatures in
>there, right?

Yeah, right. :) OK Cyberpunk hasn't detailed Australia, Africa or
Russia yet either, but at least the rest of the world has been
considered, and if worst comes to worst theirs always Rifts, but really,
there is more to the world than America, even if the Americans don't
realise it. :)

>Africa in SR has been totally ignored, and probably rightfully
>so. Not enough people care about it to warrant a sourcebook. Something
>about the bigger things in a "Target-type-book" would be great.

The excuse of the moment is that "place books" don't sell well. There
isn't sufficient profit margin in producing books like Denver, London,
Germany, to warrant the stocks and print run that Fasa must undertake,
which probably means they end up with stockpiles of the books sitting
around in a warehouse eating money.

I'm not sure on the workability of "Target" books, I was severely
disappointed with Target UCAS, which seemed rather slim for the money,
and with constant references to other material, much of it seemed a
rehash of other information.

>As it is today, I don't know much at all about Africa as a continent,
>and I don't think many people do... FASA should help. ;)

Well, several damn good movies have been made there, it's got wild
animals and jungles, and a hell of a long history, with a culture and
mysticism as old as mankind itself. i don't think it would be too bad
an idea.

But then, my opinions don't count for much when it comes to profit.
I've never been profit oriented so, I can't sympathise with FASA in
quite the way I should.


--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
Web page at: http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk
Message no. 20
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS (was: Re: Miami (Florida) in the 6th
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 02:14:12 +0100
In article <3.0.32.19970812124840.00965c40@********>, Michael Broadwater
<mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM> rambled on endlessly about Cyberpirates
CHEERS (was: Re: Miami (Florida) in the 6th
>And it's 61 years in the future. Most countries are pretty damn big, but
>when they're run by a police state (which is basically what a corp amounts
>to) there isn't a lot of crime. Crime is bad for the workers, what's bad
>for the workers is bad for the product, bad product doesn't sell in a
>competitive market, ie: keep crime low, at whatever cost. Imperial Japan
>in 2057 is not the Japan of today. I think that some info needs to be done
>on it, so that people know what's going on, but it doesn't need it's own
>sourcebook. Japan just isn't as loosely controlled/regulated as Seattle or
>most of the UCAS is in 2057.

Which all comes down to the simple fact that Japanese shadowrunners are
far more professional than any other country.

Regarding your comments about Police states and Crime, I can only point
you in the direction of the USSR, which was effectively a Police State,
and yet still had a high crime rate. Not just in smuggling western
goods.

Not the most suitable reference but.. three names

Weyland Yutani
Omni Consumer Products
Tyrell Corporation

All guilty of breaking laws and indulging themselves in nefarious
activities.

I won't even bother going into the myriad examples of possible corporate
complicity and Shadowrun possibilities available in a country like
Japan. Examples in everything from literature to movies to animation.

OK, this isn't Gibson, it isn't Manga, it isn't Anime. It isn't
Cyberpunk. It's Shadowrun. What then, pray tell, is the concept of
Shadowrun based upon if not the Cyberpunk genre, and indirectly,
Gibson's (and others) writings.


--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
Web page at: http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk
Message no. 21
From: Skye Comstock <bilbo@****.NWLINK.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS (was: Re: Miami (Florida) in the 6th
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 19:39:37 -0800
>Dangerous decision. Nobody agrees with me on this list and lives to
>enjoy it. Don't know why, but it seems to be historical. <g>

Damn, my monitor might blow up on me like Gweedo the Killer Pimp...
He returned... but hasn't been his talkative self, did he agree
with you? ;)

>However, it would be kinda nice to have a final decision on
>the elven super nation of Azania. Maybe some scientific experiment that
>has gone wrong and released a deadly plague into the Shadowrun milieu
>that only affects immortal elves, killing them within 48 hours.
>
>Or just do to Azania what they did to Scotland, Wales and the
>Netherlands - arbitrarily destroy them.

"Unfortuneately, in 2056, Azania fell into the ocean. Many whining,
Immortal Elves wearing thorns on their bodies were quickly killed.
Following that, a large volcano spontaneously erupted and
disintegrated all of their artifacts." Ooops... ;)

>The excuse of the moment is that "place books" don't sell well. There
>isn't sufficient profit margin in producing books like Denver, London,
>Germany, to warrant the stocks and print run that Fasa must undertake,
>which probably means they end up with stockpiles of the books sitting
>around in a warehouse eating money.
>
>I'm not sure on the workability of "Target" books, I was severely
>disappointed with Target UCAS, which seemed rather slim for the money,
>and with constant references to other material, much of it seemed a
>rehash of other information.

I was happy with Target, it gave me new information, I doubt I'll
set a campaign in any of the cities (barring Chicago, but then again,
I'd set that one in the bugfest at it's highest...). It was a bit
slim for a $15 book, I get a 30% discount at the gaming store, so
$12 is an excellent price.

I thought Detroit and Boston weren't all that interesting,
personally.

Detroit is basically just one big Corporate Enclave and I'm not sure
Shadowrunners could really do anything there, unless you're on a
strike team or are a wage slave. </ahem>

>>As it is today, I don't know much at all about Africa as a continent,
>>and I don't think many people do... FASA should help. ;)
>
>Well, several damn good movies have been made there, it's got wild
>animals and jungles, and a hell of a long history, with a culture and
>mysticism as old as mankind itself. i don't think it would be too bad
>an idea.

The only movies I remember about Africa are Shaka Zulu and Congo... ;)
Shaka Zulu is a great movie, Congo was silly.

-Skye
Message no. 22
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS (was: Re: Miami (Florida) in the 6th
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 23:25:24 -0400
[SNIP]

Ok, I'm not trying to get into an arguement with ya, Pete. I know better
than that. if nothing else, you'll win through sheer volume... <big grin>

Also, let me clarify what started this whole thing... I was giving my
impressions on a VERY short comment made by Mike Mulvhill. I know that
those areas are not slated to appear anytime within the next year and a
half, and those were Mike's reasons for why, besides the obvious that he
had other things lined up.

As for you're comments about the game having an American point of view,
you're right, it does. but then, FASA is an American company, and they've
seen how well they do when they try and write books based on other places
(Like London and Germany). tehy write what they know. And they are
branching out... I don;t think there's a single "American" area detailed
in Cyberpirates, and maybe only one detailed in the followup Target book.

<shrug>

I'm just giving my opinions, so... take them for what they're worth...
(be nice now...:))

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
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Shadowrun: the Card Game
Message no. 23
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS (was: Re: Miami (Florida) in the 6th
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 18:05:09 +1000
> Japan isn't a TINY island, have you ever watched the Discovery channel?
> There is a LOT of rural and suburban Japan. The proportions might not be
> the same as that in a bigger country like the USA, but Japan IS a LOT
> bigger than Seattle!
>

Ever BEEN to Japan??

There is nowhere in Japan that you can escape the sight of human
civilisation. Give industrialisation (the trend towards large corporations)
and population growth 50 more years and Japan could quite conceivably be
one large conglomeration of corporate turf.

Just see how many of the Sr's mega corps are Japanese in origin. If
there's one thing the Japanese do first and foremost, it's secure their
home turf.

Marty
Message no. 24
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS (was: Re: Miami (Florida) in the 6th
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 18:06:42 +1000
> > Lots 'o options, huh? This is Sr, not Gibson that we play, and
> > that's how Sr Japan is. How many Shadowrunners live in the Renraku
> > Arcology? Zero. How many live in Japan? Well, it's several large
> > Arcologies. Several times zero is zero.
>
> Okay. Where do you get that info for Japan? I got an impression of
> lots of huge corps crammed together, which leaves lots of tiny
> shadows to work in. Corps breed shadowrunners. IF FASA had
> announced anything about what Japan was like, I missed it (they
> could've...if so, point it out to me)
>

Shadowrunners need a certain cultural mindset to exist. I don't believe
that the Japanese are individualisic or rebellious enough to spawn a
Shadowrunner culture. Hell, even the Yakuza in Japan is so well
entrenched it may as well be another Corporation.
Message no. 25
From: "Joshua M. Kanapkey" <Wakabout@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS (was: Re: Miami (Florida) in the 6th
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 11:05:55 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-12 21:48:54 EDT, Avenger wrote:

<< OK Cyberpunk hasn't detailed Australia... >>

Ah, I beg to differ: They have, in "The Pacific Rim," one of my favorite CP
sourcebooks. It also has expanded martial arts info.

Adieu,
Wakabout {{@***.com}}
Message no. 26
From: Skye Comstock <bilbo@****.NWLINK.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS (was: Re: Miami (Florida) in the 6th
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 08:58:46 -0800
>Shadowrunners need a certain cultural mindset to exist. I don't believe
>that the Japanese are individualisic or rebellious enough to spawn a
>Shadowrunner culture. Hell, even the Yakuza in Japan is so well
>entrenched it may as well be another Corporation.

Are you kidding me? The teenagers in Japan today are losing almost
all of their culture and are extremely rebelious against their
parents. (Blonde streaks/highlights in their hair, not looking at
school as highly as they did... even in the 80's.) They are
getting most of this from Western culture, hence the need to
feel like the individuals we supposedly are...

You can't go anywhere, unless the society has been brainwashed, and
not find some element of crime. Where there's money and power, there
are going to be people that want it the "easy way." And that doesn't
mean working for it.

-Skye
Message no. 27
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cyberpirates CHEERS (was: Re: Miami (Florida) in the 6th
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 12:47:52 EST
> > Okay. Where do you get that info for Japan? I got an impression of
> > lots of huge corps crammed together, which leaves lots of tiny
> > shadows to work in. Corps breed shadowrunners. IF FASA had
> > announced anything about what Japan was like, I missed it (they
> > could've...if so, point it out to me)
> Shadowrunners need a certain cultural mindset to exist. I don't
> believe that the Japanese are individualisic or rebellious enough to
> spawn a Shadowrunner culture. Hell, even the Yakuza in Japan is so
> well entrenched it may as well be another Corporation.

Well, you're stereotyping runners, but we'll let that slide. To rule
that the people of a culture are not individual is to ignore the
majority of their existence. The Japanese merely tend to be
less...blatant...about their individuality. And the Yakuza has
become entrenched only over time (not to mention the New Way movement
of the Yaks in the SR world, which says something opposite your
statement.)

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