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Message no. 1
From: ROBERSON@***.EDU
Subject: Cyberpsychosis
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 93 20:44:00 CET
Quiktek's approach to modifying social skill rolls for VCPs (Very
Chormed People) makes sense in many ways. I believe that no matter how
prevalent cybernetics get, those with lots of it will be rather intimidating,
especially if most of it is combat-oriented. A similar situation exists with
guns today: Sure they're legal and acceptable, but there's something about a
person who buys a firearm, no matter how legitimate the reason, that most
people stand back from.
Another point I would like to make is that the odd behavior may not
be caused by the cyberware: It could very well be that anyone who gets that
much chrome is a little unbalanced to begin with. Better yet, their may be
a link between psychosis and cyberware, but not a direct one, meaning that
different people react in different ways. That's how I defined it in my
GURPS Cpunk campaign: Certainly their were reported storier of people
going nuts after augmentation, but science had yet to establish a direct
link. Mostly, it was considered a social/psychological problem: People shun
Jack the Samurai, Jack develops anger and resentment, Jack kills people. Was
it Jack's fault or everyone else's ? (Rhetorical Question; no flames please.)

Oh: don't forget that in Quiktek's case, some skills (i.e., Intimidate) would
be greatly facilitated by being a scary cyber-monster.

J Roberson
Convince an enemy, convince him that he's wrong
to win a bloodless battle, the victory is long
-Sting, History Will Teach Us Nothing, Nothing Like the Sun, 1989
Message no. 2
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Cyberpsychosis
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1993 18:16:46 -0800
>>to: The Deb Decker
>>re: Cyber-psychosis in C-punk 2.0.2.0.
>>No, a psychotic character generally becomes the subject of a GM
>>designed and run manhunt by the Cyber-Psycho squad of the local
>>police, assisted by most Bounty Hunting solos around. The rules
>>say nothing about the GM taking the character away. C-punk
>>2.0.2.0. just doesn't work that way. It's not AD&D, wherein your
>>character is taken away if it becomes a Vampire or the like.

Actually starting at Empathy 3 (out of ten) the character becomes increasingly
anti-social, tempermental, and violent. When Empathy drops to 0, the character
becomes a hyper-violent psychotic who falls under the GM's control.

===============================================================================
See Ya in Shadows, "Keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer."
Jason J Carter -- Deep Throat, The X-Files
The Nightstalker Carter@***.EDU
Message no. 3
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Cyberpsychosis
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 22:22:41 -0500
Yes, I do use the cyberpsychosis rules in Shadowrun. As Rat said
earlier, they don't make a whole lot of sense unless you can explain
them. For me, cyberpsychosis represents the effects of physical,
neurochemical, genetic, and even social effects on the user.
The biggest unhinging effects of cyberware (to me) are the
slight neurochemical imbalances that such a system could (and in my
campaign do) cause. However, they tend to lead to more mundane things
like depression.
Also important are the psychological aspects of such surgery.
People tend to shun those who are different from them, and those with
cyberware are probably no exception. Social perceptions of oddity or
even monstrosity can manifest themselves in the psyche of those who have
to endure them. It's the same with metahumanity. Orcs and trolls are
not intrinsically evil, brutish, and crude per se, but upon goblinization,
many became that way because that's what they perceived themselves to be.
Things that affect the brain and/or neural systems are probably
the biggest contributors to the phenomenon known as "cyberpsychosis" due
to the fact that many of them interface directly with the brain.

To reflect this complex phenomenon, I don't use a hard-and-fast set
of rules. Instead, they're more like guidelines for role-playing.
Here's a rough idea of how it goes:

Essence > 3.0 ==> you're fine. A little edgy sometimes, maybe,
but on the whole, your life is relatively in order.
3.0 > Essence > 1.0 ==> you are beginning to exhibit signs of
manic depressive behavior. The closer to 1.0
you get, the more pronounced this behavior becomes.
1.0 > Essence > 0.5 ==> As above, but extremely pronounced. Mood
swings can go from homicidal mania to suicidal
depression in seconds. Also, bizarre, irrational
phobias/manias begin to creep into the
personality. It is at this stage that
schizophrenia and other "reality detachment"
disorders also begin to show.
0.5 > Essence > 0.0 ==> As above, but again more strongly pronounced.
Morals and values begin to fade into the grey
depression. Mood swings spend more time on the
extremes and less time in the middle. Phobias/
manias become extremely obvious and begin to
cause problems with the character's everyday life.
Also, phobias begin to proliferate, and an over-
whelming sense of paranoia pervades all of the
character's actions/interactions.
Essence = 0.0 ==> You're freakin' bonkers. Right outta your gourd,
boyo. You are a total waste of human life. And
deep down inside, you know it...

This is just a simple guideline, but it works well. Keep in mind
that this leaves a lot of leeway for *role-playing*. I have seen
cyberpsychotics who were everywhere from scheming, devious megalomaniacs,
to rabid homicidal killers, to confused paranoid obsessive-compulsives
with delusions of conspiracy, to people with a mild case of depression, to
people with a pathological hatred of medkits, to out-and-out suicidal
nut-cases.
So while it may have originally been intended for game balance,
cyberpsychosis can make a wonderful hook for really challenging role-playing
(ever played a suicidal? It's tough. You have to be fully prepared to
let a good character go at a moment's notice.)

Marc
Message no. 4
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Cyberpsychosis
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 23:43:11 -0500
>>>>> "Marc" == Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
writes:

Marc> The biggest unhinging effects of cyberware (to me) are the
Marc> slight neurochemical imbalances that such a system could (and in my
Marc> campaign do) cause. However, they tend to lead to more mundane things
Marc> like depression.

Just a psychological nit-pick... depression can be a psychosis. Psychoses
generally are /not/ violent in nature; they tend to be ``mundane'' as you
put it. The clinical definion of psychosis is: a fundamental lasting mental
derrangement characterized by defective or lost contact with reality. This
can include, among many other things, depression, manic behaviour, manic-
depressive behaviour, rage, schizophrenia, and occasionaly multiple
personalities disorder. The ``rampaging psychotic'' stereotype is just
that.

Furthermore, psychoses, like most mental disorders, are usually treatable
through therapy, counciling, and medication, the latter of which is known
to exist to some degree in the Shadowrun universe (the chief of Renraku
Security in the Seattle Arcology, for example. Read _Never Deal with a
Dragon_ for details -- not perfect, but then he's in pretty bad shape to
begin with). So, again, getting back to my arguments against
``cyberpsychosis,'' unless cybernetics are somehow fundamentally flawed,
there's really no reason why you shouldn't be able to have a mentally
well-balanced street ronin or full-conversion borg.

As for ``humanity,'' that's far too variable a variable to seriously
consider, IMNSHO, and really should be relegated to role-playing, not game
balance mechanics. I mean, seriously, take some wanna-be ronin who really
couldn't care less what anyone else thinks about him and wire him to the
gills. I really don't see how society's predjudices are going to adversely
affect his mental state. On top of that, he's probably going to feel pretty
good about himself afterwards, because of the after market add-ons he's had
installed -- better, stronger, faster, etc. He's probably not the most
well-adjusted individual out there, but that's not the fault of the cyber.

Of course, given the premise that cyber is fundamentally and untreatably
flawed, then all of these factors can really do a serious number on
someone's mental health.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | returned to its special container and
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! | kept under refrigeration.
Message no. 5
From: Joel Ricker <a018907t@*********.SEFLIN.LIB.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Cyberpsychosis
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 11:51:44 -0500
On Mon, 9 Jan 1995, Marc A Renouf wrote:

> Also important are the psychological aspects of such surgery.
> People tend to shun those who are different from them, and those with
> cyberware are probably no exception...

People shunning cyberware in 2050? Maybe in the sticks but in the sprawl
people put walkmans in their brain for crissakes... Most characters I've
seen (novels, sourcebooks, and my campaigns) at least have a datajack
(rigging, decking, or just for plain entertainment and general use
(phone, music, etc).

> So while it may have originally been intended for game balance,
> cyberpsychosis can make a wonderful hook for really challenging role-playing
> (ever played a suicidal? It's tough. You have to be fully prepared to
> let a good character go at a moment's notice.)
>
> Marc

I agree on the idea of roleplaying cyberpsychosis (to keep your advanced
players on their toes) but it is unnecessry for game balance since FASA
has already done a good job at setting the essence loss costs high enough
so players are cautious about what they buy.
Message no. 6
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cyberpsychosis
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 12:05:53 -0500
On Tue, 10 Jan 1995, Joel Ricker wrote:

> On Mon, 9 Jan 1995, Marc A Renouf wrote:
>
> > Also important are the psychological aspects of such surgery.
> > People tend to shun those who are different from them, and those with
> > cyberware are probably no exception...
>
> People shunning cyberware in 2050? Maybe in the sticks but in the sprawl
> people put walkmans in their brain for crissakes... Most characters I've
> seen (novels, sourcebooks, and my campaigns) at least have a datajack
> (rigging, decking, or just for plain entertainment and general use
> (phone, music, etc).

Datajacks and headware walkmans are fine. It's that guy in the
deli with twin cyberarms, glowing telescopic cybereyes, 8" chromium
carbide spurs, and enough dermal plating to stop a tank round that makes
people uneasy.

Marc
Message no. 7
From: Joel Ricker <a018907t@*********.SEFLIN.LIB.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Cyberpsychosis
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 12:30:41 -0500
> > > On Mon, 9 Jan 1995, Marc A Renouf wrote:
> > > Also important are the psychological aspects of such surgery.
> > > People tend to shun those who are different from them, and those with
> > > cyberware are probably no exception...
> >
> > People shunning cyberware in 2050? Maybe in the sticks but in the sprawl
> > people put walkmans in their brain for crissakes... Most characters I've
> > seen (novels, sourcebooks, and my campaigns) at least have a datajack
> > (rigging, decking, or just for plain entertainment and general use
> > (phone, music, etc).
>
> Datajacks and headware walkmans are fine. It's that guy in the
> deli with twin cyberarms, glowing telescopic cybereyes, 8" chromium
> carbide spurs, and enough dermal plating to stop a tank round that makes
> people uneasy.
>
> Marc

Sounds more like standard issue for life in the Sprawl :)

When giant octopuses start crawling out of the water (2XS), you have to
have an edge.
Message no. 8
From: "James W. Thomas" <cm5323@***.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: cyberpsychosis
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 13:50:37 +0000
<this is my veiw. nothing more>

Cyberpsychosis is the loss of a 'human self image', and can be
the start of a delusional system that can replace your reality.

The trouble hits when you look in the mirror and don't recognise
the face that looks out.
When you can't put your weapons down because they are you
when you're wired so fast that your mind can't keep up and you
find that you can't sleep, can't sit still, can't slow down

Its a fact that about 5% of peaple who have even minor cosmetic
surgery suffer some form of clinical personality disorder.
It takes proper counceling before and after the operation to
come to terms with the 'new you'.
(how many players pay for this? remember, if you have illegal
cybers, the shrink could shop you)

Don't forget the dehumanising effect of violence... making
yourself an instrument of destruction has got to be bad for you
if you can't stay in 100% control...
and keeping 100% control all day every day puts a lot of stress
on you.

Of course, this can work in reverse.
peaple with latent insanitys, clinical psychosis, or those
suffering from a traumatic experience (in combat, childhood,
gang war, love, hate, etc) have an altered vision of themselves,
even subconciously.
the cybernetics allow them to alter themselves

peaple emotionaly hurt can protect themselves by replacing flesh
with unfeeling metal, building a shell around themselves to
keep the world out.
those who fear being weak can make themselves stronger
those driven by a purpose can dispose of the inconvinient human
side of themselves and forge themselves into tools with a single
purpose
(yes, its the old 'you have to be mad to have cyberware' debate,
but its also true.)
minor cybernetics have little effect...
its the importance you put on the cybernetic that does the damage

I once rewrote the CP2020 cyber/humanity system to take this
into account. The system used COOL and EMP rolls to determine
what effect the cyber had on your personality.
stuff you hardly noticed was easy to ignore (nanites, blood
filters)
the worst stuff was involentry replacements of limbs
(shock&trauma of loss + metal arm)
and New Senses they had never known (360 ultrasound vision
really does make you feel altered)


CHOPPER

Ps
isn't your image in astrial your 'idealised self image'?
So stone killers, insane toxics, etc all look warped and
'inhuman'
So what do multiple personality cases look like? and could you
have one personality project astrially as another inhabited the
body?

all the players shout " I want to be a tetrad!"
Message no. 9
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Cyberpsychosis
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 1995 23:41:11 +0930
I just checked out that page reference, and it said (quoting):
"Even 0 Essence is tough to handle, promoting despair and melancholy. Folks
of such low Essence walk the thin edge of sanity."

It says nothing about a person with 0.1 Essence. Also note that the syptoms
are those of (probably terminal) depression, not psychosis or megalomania,
etc. Most likely reason: their body's systems are about to fall over.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 10
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Cyberpsychosis
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 1995 23:46:27 +0930
Robert Watkins wrote:
> It says nothing about a person with 0.1 Essence. Also note that the syptoms
> are those of (probably terminal) depression, not psychosis or megalomania,
> etc. Most likely reason: their body's systems are about to fall over.

Another thing to remember is... insane people might be more likely to get
lots and lots of cyberware. A normal person isn't too likely to want
extensive mods, and even runners are probably a little nervous about
trading large slabs of their bodies for metal. To quote "Lone Wolf": what
kind of person _voluntarily_ chops of both his arms for metal? A paranoid
or megalomanic might not even think twice.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 11
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cyberpsychosis
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 1995 21:11:57 -0400
>>>>> "Robert" == Robert Watkins <bob@**.ntu.edu.au>
writes:

Robert> Also note that the syptoms are those of (probably terminal)
Robert> depression, not psychosis or megalomania, etc.

Check your medical references; depression *is* a psychosis. Suffering from
psychoses does not equate to psychotic behavior. That's another fallacy
that R.Tal's Cyberpunk game has helped foster.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Happy Fun Ball has been shipped to our
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | troops in Saudi Arabia and is also being
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! | dropped by our warplanes on Iraq.
Message no. 12
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: cyberpsychosis
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 11:04:41 BST
Robert Watkins Wrote :-
> Robert Watkins Wrote :-

Wow, replying to your own posts, just how much essence do you
have mr Encephalon, multi-tasking decker ;-).

Kidding alright, anyway, it does sort of imply that having higher essence
than 0 puts you nearer to the edge.

I Like - essence space-cases, even if the original was a kludge to
stop cyberpunk players putting to much cyber in their characters.

Not that CP players believe that there is such a thing as _too much_
cyber. ;-).

Phil (Renegade)
Message no. 13
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Cyberpsychosis
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 20:39:06 +0930
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> >>>>> "Robert" == Robert Watkins <bob@**.ntu.edu.au>
writes:
>
> Robert> Also note that the syptoms are those of (probably terminal)
> Robert> depression, not psychosis or megalomania, etc.
>
> Check your medical references; depression *is* a psychosis. Suffering from
> psychoses does not equate to psychotic behavior. That's another fallacy
> that R.Tal's Cyberpunk game has helped foster.

I'm not a med student... psychosis to me means psychotic behaviour.
(I know mental illnesses of all sorts can be referred to as a psychosis,
but I don't think that way, normally.)

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 14
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: cyberpsychosis
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 09:01:37 -0400
>>>>> "P" == P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK> writes:

P> Kidding alright, anyway, it does sort of imply that having higher
P> essence than 0 puts you nearer to the edge.

Huh?

But, if I get what you're trying to say, the closer your essence drops to
0, the less sane you are.

I say wrong. Nothing in the SR books implies that in the least. All it does
say is that someone with 0 Essence is borderline.

That makes sense, given what Essence is all about.

It is *not* your "humanity" or anything at all like that. It's your
body/mind's grasp on life. When that tie is almost nil, then yeah, it's
very likely that you're going to be depressed all the time (depression *is*
a psychosis, I should point out again). But anyone with higher than 0
Essence, and thus a stronger cling to life, isn't going to be affected
directly by the cyber; any psychoses they suffere are their own delusions.

Yes, it's a game-balance mechanic, I will admit. But, given the premises of
the Sixth World, it makes sense; it works; it's part of that world, not
something tacked on a the last minute.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | returned to its special container and
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! | kept under refrigeration.
Message no. 15
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cyberpsychosis
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 09:05:46 -0400
>>>>> "Robert" == Robert Watkins <bob@**.ntu.edu.au>
writes:

Robert> I'm not a med student... psychosis to me means psychotic behaviour.
Robert> (I know mental illnesses of all sorts can be referred to as a
Robert> psychosis, but I don't think that way, normally.)

My Webster's II defines psychosis as:

A severe mental disorder marked by the degeneration of mental and
social functioning and withdrawal from society.

And psychopath:

A person with a mental disorder manifested esp. in aggressively
antisocial behavior.

Your thinking is incorrect; as is, unfortunatley, a large percentage of
English speakers. And yes, I do blame R.Talsorian Games for part of it.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox |
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 16
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Cyberpsychosis
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 22:38:46 +0930
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> Your thinking is incorrect; as is, unfortunatley, a large percentage of
> English speakers. And yes, I do blame R.Talsorian Games for part of it.

I said my thinking was incorrect... Me, I blame the movie "Psycho", and the
mass media.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 17
From: cocheese <ZKLJ1@****.EAST-TENN-ST.EDU>
Subject: Cyber-psychosis
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 1995 21:13:32 EDT
Does anyone have the Cyberpunk 2020 mental ailment of cyber psychosis? This
mental derangement occurs when the "invasion" of cybertech is too great and
the individual becomes more machine than man.
In shadowrun terms it would apply after one's essence drops to a certain level,
in my game PCs begin to suffer when their essence reaches 1 or less.

Comments, ideas?

CoCheese
Message no. 18
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Cyber-psychosis
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 10:54:51 +0930
cocheese wrote:
>
> Does anyone have the Cyberpunk 2020 mental ailment of cyber psychosis?

Not personally... Though I know this guy with a plate in his head who
always acts a bit strange. Does that count? :)

> This
> mental derangement occurs when the "invasion" of cybertech is too great and
> the individual becomes more machine than man.
> In shadowrun terms it would apply after one's essence drops to a certain level,
> in my game PCs begin to suffer when their essence reaches 1 or less.
>

Oh god, here we go again... The eternal cyberpsychosis arguement, take 327.

I don't like the idea of cyberpsychosis as it applies to Shadowrun. I don't
see it present in the backgroound literature, and I don't see why it should
occur. I _do_ see a number of already psychotic people becoming heavily
cybered, but why not? If _you_ were paranoid, you'd go out and get Dermal
Armour 3, to better absorb the bullet (or more likely Orthoskin), and Wired
Reflexes 3, so you can dodge it better, and Cyberspurs, to deal with those
gang punks who run out at you with knives, and genetic immunity to toxins,
and everything else. What sane person wouldn't? :) Heck, you'd probably go
out and get a Detect Enemies (Extended Range) put on to you. Though you'd
probably take it off quickly... as everyone walking by would set it off. :)

(OTH, I can see cyberpsychosis coming in with the Cyborg book, which will
allow negative essence characters)

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 19
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cyber-psychosis
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 1995 21:49:20 -0400
>>>>> "cocheese" == cocheese <ZKLJ1@****.EAST-TENN-ST.EDU>
writes:

cocheese> Does anyone have the Cyberpunk 2020 mental ailment of cyber
cocheese> psychosis?

No, I don't.

cocheese> This mental derangement occurs when the "invasion" of
cocheese> cybertech is too great and the individual becomes more machine
cocheese> than man.

Actually, this crocked game mechanic occours when a game company like
R.Talsorian Games gets a playtest packet back from a bunch of rules-
rapists just weeks before the game's announced relase date (and GenCon)
so they whipped up this bogus "humanity" mechanic to keep players from
turning their characters into Robocops. And, because all the weenies who
think "cyberpunk is so k00l!!!" retroactively made "cyberpsychosis" a
"genre" thing, almost every other game company decided to immitate it in
some fashion or other.

FASA didn't. FASA came up with a reasonable game balance mechanic based
on the existance of the astral body (or soul, or whatever), that fits
within the context of the game. FASA gets heaps of kudos for that.

I've dealt with multiple amputees, para- and quadrapalegics, cancer and
MS patients, and a variety of others who'd benefit from cybernetics,
some of whom have a variety of prosthetics today. Prosthetics do NOT
make these people feel "less human". To the contrary, being enabled by
what devices we have tody makes them feel that much better about
themselves. Belive me, there's nothing more dehumanizing than being
confined to a wheelchair or hospital bed; anything that breaks these
people out of their confinement is going to have a completely opposite
effect than these crocked "cyberpsychosis" mechanics.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox |
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 20
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Cyber-psychosis
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 11:28:22 +0930
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> I've dealt with multiple amputees, para- and quadrapalegics, cancer and
> MS patients, and a variety of others who'd benefit from cybernetics,
> some of whom have a variety of prosthetics today. Prosthetics do NOT
> make these people feel "less human". To the contrary, being enabled by
> what devices we have tody makes them feel that much better about
> themselves. Belive me, there's nothing more dehumanizing than being
> confined to a wheelchair or hospital bed; anything that breaks these
> people out of their confinement is going to have a completely opposite
> effect than these crocked "cyberpsychosis" mechanics.

Hear, hear... I can't see why having a limb replaced would make you less
human. I can understand why someone mentally unbalanced would be more
likely to volunteer for it, though...

The only justification I can see for the cyberpyschosis syndrome is that
you do end up fiddling with the brain. This could be bad if you didn't know
what you were doing. But, as far as the Shadowrun Cyber system goes, it
doesn't matter how many things you get installed, you're only going to have,
at most, something like 4 interfaces. Things like headware cost more
essence than other things, because your brain is affected more, but it's
still not likely to be a problem.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 21
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cyber-psychosis
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 1995 22:05:46 -0400
>>>>> "Robert" == Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
writes:

Robert> Hear, hear... I can't see why having a limb replaced would make
Robert> you less human. I can understand why someone mentally unbalanced
Robert> would be more likely to volunteer for it, though...

In which case they're unhinged *BEFORE* the surgery, not because of it.

Robert> The only justification I can see for the cyberpyschosis syndrome
Robert> is that you do end up fiddling with the brain. This could be bad
Robert> if you didn't know what you were doing.

In which case you would be unable to graft cybernetics to the nervous
system. You wouldn't have ASIST technologies. Rigging and decking
wouldn't exist. Cybernetic prosthetics would be little better than they
are today. Skill wires and wired reflexes would be impossible.

This is obviously not the case in most cyber-RPGs.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
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Message no. 22
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Cyber-psychosis
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 11:38:50 +0930
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> >>>>> "Robert" == Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
writes:
>
> Robert> Hear, hear... I can't see why having a limb replaced would make
> Robert> you less human. I can understand why someone mentally unbalanced
> Robert> would be more likely to volunteer for it, though...
>
> In which case they're unhinged *BEFORE* the surgery, not because of it.

I made that point in an earlier post, Rat.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 23
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cyber-psychosis
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 1995 22:36:57 -0500
Oh No! Not Again!

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> Cthulhu Matata
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\/ Finger for PGP Public Key <=> http://att2.cs.mankato.msus.edu/~hayden

******************************
** Random Babylon 5 Quote **
******************************
"Why is it called Babylon 5?"
'Babylons 1, 2, and 3 were sabotaged and destroyed. Number 4 vanished
without a trace 24 hours after becoming operational.'
-- Lyta Alexander and Sinclair, "The Gathering"
Message no. 24
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Cyber-psychosis
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 15:01:19 +0200
>Does anyone have the Cyberpunk 2020 mental ailment of cyber psychosis? This
>mental derangement occurs when the "invasion" of cybertech is too great and
>the individual becomes more machine than man.
>In shadowrun terms it would apply after one's essence drops to a certain level,
>in my game PCs begin to suffer when their essence reaches 1 or less.
>
>Comments, ideas?

Maybe we should include a mention of "cyber-psychosis" in the FAQ, like "If
you insist, bring it up but be warned that it has been discussed about once
per month in the past..."


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
No one wants you when you lose
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Message no. 25
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cyber-psychosis
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 11:06:31 -0400
>>>>> "Gurth" == Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:

Gurth> Maybe we should include a mention of "cyber-psychosis" in the
Gurth> FAQ, like "If you insist, bring it up but be warned that it has
Gurth> been discussed about once per month in the past..."

More like every three or four months or so. It tends to fill in when the
firearms and combat aircraft discussions reach a lull :).

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
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Message no. 26
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cyber-psychosis
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 16:15:52 -0400
> Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> > I've dealt with multiple amputees, para- and quadrapalegics, cancer and
> > MS patients, and a variety of others who'd benefit from cybernetics,
> > some of whom have a variety of prosthetics today. Prosthetics do NOT
> > make these people feel "less human". To the contrary, being enabled by
> > what devices we have tody makes them feel that much better about
> > themselves. Belive me, there's nothing more dehumanizing than being
> > confined to a wheelchair or hospital bed; anything that breaks these
> > people out of their confinement is going to have a completely opposite
> > effect than these crocked "cyberpsychosis" mechanics.

Up to this point I agree with you. Prosthetics etc. can have a
profound positive influence on people's lives. But prosthetics aren't
usually hardwired to your brain.


Robert Watkins wrote:

> The only justification I can see for the cyberpyschosis syndrome is that
> you do end up fiddling with the brain. This could be bad if you didn't know
> what you were doing. But, as far as the Shadowrun Cyber system goes, it
> doesn't matter how many things you get installed, you're only going to have,
> at most, something like 4 interfaces. Things like headware cost more
> essence than other things, because your brain is affected more, but it's
> still not likely to be a problem.

To me, this is where cyberpsychosis comes into play, namely where
the brain is affected. I run it such that "cyberpsychosis" is the result
of neuro-chemical imbalances caused by the minute charges and
artificial magnetic fields caused by the implantation of neural ware. If
you could piss away your entire Esence on ware that had absolutely no
neural interface, I would say that you were in no danger of succumbing to
the disorder. I realize that it's not technically a Shadowrun mechanic,
but then again, nobody ever accused my campaign of being standard.
Keep in mind, however, that I'm not your typical proponent of
cyberpsychosis. To me, it's much more of a roleplaying thing. I cringe
everytime a newbie says "Cyberpsychosis?! You mean I get to roll to see
what derangement I have? Cool." Cyberpsychosis should *never* come off
a table. It should be something that is intrinsic to the character and
it should fit in with that character's background, experiences, etc.
And finally, most people view cyberpsychosis as turning you into
a raving maniacal killing machine bent on the destruction of all life.
Not so. By far the most common symptom of cyberpsychosis in my game is
chronic depression, which, by the way, it hinted at in the description of
Essence in the basic book.

Marc
Message no. 27
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Cyber-psychosis
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 09:04:03 +0930
Marc A Renouf wrote:
> Robert Watkins wrote:
>
> > The only justification I can see for the cyberpyschosis syndrome is that
> > you do end up fiddling with the brain. This could be bad if you didn't know
> > what you were doing. But, as far as the Shadowrun Cyber system goes, it
> > doesn't matter how many things you get installed, you're only going to have,
> > at most, something like 4 interfaces. Things like headware cost more
> > essence than other things, because your brain is affected more, but it's
> > still not likely to be a problem.
>
> To me, this is where cyberpsychosis comes into play, namely where
> the brain is affected. I run it such that "cyberpsychosis" is the result
> of neuro-chemical imbalances caused by the minute charges and
> artificial magnetic fields caused by the implantation of neural ware. If
> you could piss away your entire Esence on ware that had absolutely no
> neural interface, I would say that you were in no danger of succumbing to
> the disorder. I realize that it's not technically a Shadowrun mechanic,
> but then again, nobody ever accused my campaign of being standard.

So... a decker with a cranial cyberdeck is more likely to be cyberpyschotic
then the sam, loaded to the gills with performance enhancing cyber/bioware.
After all, the sam only has a couple of neural interfaces, while the decker
has had lots of stuff put in his head (especially if he's got any memory to
speak of).

Well, what can I say? Cool... Different, but cool.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 28
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Cyber-psychosis
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 11:50:23 +0200
>More like every three or four months or so. It tends to fill in when the
>firearms and combat aircraft discussions reach a lull :).

Exaggerating a bit never hurt anybody :) It might just save us from take 328
of this discussion (at least for a little longer than normal)...


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
No one wants you when you lose
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B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 29
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cyber-psychosis
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 10:35:43 -0400
>>>>> "Marc" == Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
writes:

Marc> Up to this point I agree with you. Prosthetics etc. can
Marc> have a profound positive influence on people's lives. But
Marc> prosthetics aren't usually hardwired to your brain.

So what? If you have the knowledge to play a completely realistic
simulation of reality directly into the cortex (simsense), can graft
fully or superiorly functional cybernetic optics into the optic nerves,
if you can do all these things then you must know enough about the
neurochemical balances and workings of the brain and central nervous
system to be able treat any of the ailments that might arise from
man-made imbalances in the brain and CNS. If you don't have that
knowledge, then you cannot make the cybernetic graft work in the first
place; one requires the other.

Therefore, if grafting cybernetics into the nervous system causes
imbalances, and those imbalances are not treated then either a) the
cyberwear is deliberately flawed or b) the recipients aren't keeping up
on their treatment. With proper treatment, should it be necessary,
cyberpsychsis, assuming that it does exist in this form, can be easilly
cured (or at least treated). Since cure or treatment is a trivial
matter, "cyberpsychosis" becomes an element of character role-playing,
not a game mechanic.

[...]

Marc> To me, this is where cyberpsychosis comes into play, namely where
Marc> the brain is affected. I run it such that "cyberpsychosis" is the
Marc> result of neuro-chemical imbalances caused by the minute charges
Marc> and artificial magnetic fields caused by the implantation of
Marc> neural ware.

I can see the pop psychology in this one. Guess what? Weak magnetic
fields don't hurt you; the Earth's natural magnetic field is stronger
than any field generated by microelectronics today, and the fields
generated by nanotechnological implants are going to be even less. But
you don't see the average Joe on the street going on a psychotic rampage
for no readilly apparent reason. Even the RF energy generated by today's
hardware is something your body will happilly ignore (EM from your CRT
is another matter, though).

"Yet again I defenestrate fallacious support of 'cyberpsychosis'."

[...]

Marc> Keep in mind, however, that I'm not your typical proponent of
Marc> cyberpsychosis. To me, it's much more of a roleplaying thing. I
Marc> cringe everytime a newbie says "Cyberpsychosis?! You mean I get
Marc> to roll to see what derangement I have? Cool." Cyberpsychosis
Marc> should *never* come off a table. It should be something that is
Marc> intrinsic to the character and it should fit in with that
Marc> character's background, experiences, etc.

Then why base it off of some stat? Assuming that there is a reason for
someone to become psychotic (of which there are plenty in any cyberpunk
setting) then why does the ammount of cyberwear grafted to their body
have anything to do with it?

Marc> And finally, most people view cyberpsychosis as turning you into a
Marc> raving maniacal killing machine bent on the destruction of all
Marc> life. Not so. By far the most common symptom of cyberpsychosis in
Marc> my game is chronic depression,

Very good; someone who knows his psychoses :).

Marc> which, by the way, it hinted at in the description of Essence in
Marc> the basic book.

Well, that's mostly because they're ready to give up the ghost,
literally. The astral body/soul/whatever wants out because the physical
body is almost incapable of supporting it anymore (and vice-versa).
Depression is a reasonable state for someone on the verge of death when
their body and subconscious, and maybe conscious mind know it. This,
depression, however, is NOT a psychtic reaction, it's a psychosomatic
reaction; the causes are completely different even though they have
identical symptoms.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
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PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 30
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cyber-psychosis
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 12:45:41 -0400
On Thu, 15 Jun 1995, Robert Watkins wrote:

> > To me, this is where cyberpsychosis comes into play, namely where
> > the brain is affected. I run it such that "cyberpsychosis" is the
result
> > of neuro-chemical imbalances caused by the minute charges and
> > artificial magnetic fields caused by the implantation of neural ware. If
> > you could piss away your entire Esence on ware that had absolutely no
> > neural interface, I would say that you were in no danger of succumbing to
> > the disorder. I realize that it's not technically a Shadowrun mechanic,
> > but then again, nobody ever accused my campaign of being standard.

> So... a decker with a cranial cyberdeck is more likely to be cyberpyschotic
> then the sam, loaded to the gills with performance enhancing cyber/bioware.
> After all, the sam only has a couple of neural interfaces, while the decker
> has had lots of stuff put in his head (especially if he's got any memory to
> speak of).

Precisely. And for reference, the one decker in the party who
has *lots* of headware is probably less stable than even the more
wigged-out sams.
But you'd be surprised what interfaces with your brain. I don't
use the "interface link" rules in Shadowtech because they seemed kinda
hokey. I mean they make sense in an esoteric kind of way, but when you
actually think about it, how can you control all of these kinds
of ware off a single link to the brain (regardless of similarity)? Why
doesn't it change the Essence cost when installing cyberware that would
use an existing interface? As a plus, though, my players are also not
subject to interface hits.
On the other hand, pretty much any cyberware that can be mentally
controlled has an impact on the user's psyche. This includes things like
smartgunlinks, cybereyes with multiple options, headware communications,
cyberlimbs, etc. And stuff like wired reflexes is so neurally invasive
that it affects you as well.

> Well, what can I say? Cool... Different, but cool.

Well, I'm glad you think so. I have to agree with Rat in that if
it's done poorly, the whole "cyberpsychosis" thing can be a crock. But
if you take the time to explain it reasonably, it can add an interesting
new role-playing dimension to cyberware.

Marc
Message no. 31
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cyber-psychosis
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 13:05:07 -0400
On Thu, 15 Jun 1995, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> >>>>> "Marc" == Marc A Renouf
<jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU> writes:

> Marc> To me, this is where cyberpsychosis comes into play, namely where
> Marc> the brain is affected. I run it such that "cyberpsychosis" is the
> Marc> result of neuro-chemical imbalances caused by the minute charges
> Marc> and artificial magnetic fields caused by the implantation of
> Marc> neural ware.

> I can see the pop psychology in this one. Guess what? Weak magnetic
> fields don't hurt you; the Earth's natural magnetic field is stronger
> than any field generated by microelectronics today, and the fields
> generated by nanotechnological implants are going to be even less. But
> you don't see the average Joe on the street going on a psychotic rampage
> for no readilly apparent reason. Even the RF energy generated by today's
> hardware is something your body will happilly ignore

Yeah, but my motherboard isn't strapped to my cerebral cortex
either, is it? Field strength goes up exponentially as you get closer to
the source. Since we haven't been able to hardwire things to the brain
yet, we have absolutely no idea how strongly those little fields would
affect us. And a little bit would be probably be fine, but when you
start packing your head with stuff, it's bound to have some adverse
effects.
Look at it this way, at least cyberware doesn't give you brain
cancer.

Marc (clinging furiously to the windowsill...)
Message no. 32
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cyber-psychosis
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 13:26:28 -0400
>>>>> "Marc" == Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
writes:

I'm not going to repeat myself by answering the previous questions, but
I will answer this one:

Marc> Why doesn't it change the Essence cost when installing cyberware
Marc> that would use an existing interface?

Because of how the whole essence cost/loss mechanic works.

It's a given that, in Shadowrun, the astral body/soul/whatever you want
to call it exists. It's also a given that there is sympathy between the
two; do something to one and it affects the other in a similar fashion.
When you damage the physical body, the astral body reflects the damage,
and loss of essence is the result. If you do enough damage to the astral
body (more than 6 essence worth) it ceases to be viable and "dies",
taking the physical body with it. Note: when the bodies are close to
death, they can feel it, and that usually causes depression or
potentially other psychoses, and this state is, in fact, consistant with
current medical knowledge. This should not be called "cyberpsychosis" as
*anyone* who has their essence drained to such a degree will undergo
similar periods of depression.

The final key is that the mind, which "resides" in the brain and extends
throughought the nervous system, is one of, if not the, primary link
between the two bodies.

Thus, when you graft something foreign to the physical body, the astral
body is similarly damaged. The closer to the mind/brain/CNS the foreign
thing is, or the more connections to it, the greater the sympathetic
damage.

So, even though you might think that adding something new to the same
interface should have a reduced essence cost, it doesn't, because, from
a metaphysical viewpoint (important when dealing with magic and astral
entities) there really are the same number of connections to the mind.

Ok, so maybe it's hokey; but it's a believable kind of hokey that fits
with the rest of the Sixth World.

[...]

Marc> Well, I'm glad you think so. I have to agree with Rat in
Marc> that if it's done poorly, the whole "cyberpsychosis" thing can be
Marc> a crock. But if you take the time to explain it reasonably, it
Marc> can add an interesting new role-playing dimension to cyberware.

I still disagree from a philosophical standpoint. In Shadowrun, and in
the pre-Cyberpunk (R.Tal's) literature, there is no such thing as
"psychoses due to cybernetic grafting". In the real world any argument
made in support of cyberpsychosis can be completely disproven (and has
been, repeatedly, on rec.games.frp.cyber) based on the medical and
psychological knowledge we have today. Cyberpsychosis is not "genre"
though I will redilly admit that psychotic behavior is. The point is
that this behaviour is the result of the external influences of society
in general. Thus, it becomes useless as a means of enforcing any kind of
game balance as it is a role-playing aspect of a character, not a roll-
playing aspect.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | accelerate to dangerous speeds.
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 33
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cyber-psychosis
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 14:54:28 -0400
>>>>> "Marc" == Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
writes:

Marc> Yeah, but my motherboard isn't strapped to my cerebral
Marc> cortex either, is it? Field strength goes up exponentially as you
Marc> get closer to the source.

Isn't it logarithmically? It's been years since I've done any work in
field theory; I've forgotten most of the math.

Marc> Since we haven't been able to hardwire things to the brain yet, we
Marc> have absolutely no idea how strongly those little fields would
Marc> affect us.

Actually, we do. We can extrapolate what those fields are likely to be.
Low power results in low field strength, regardless of how close to the
source of that field. And we've had people working in comparatively more
powerful fields for years without them being driven psychotic by them.
The levels of exposure various EMFs in, say, an hydroelectric plant are
going to be significantly higher than any piece of microtronics
implanted in your brain.

And then there's the fact that most cybertronics are going to be EMF
shielded, anyway, especially in military-grade or corporate level cyber.
It'd suck if the UCAS or CAS armies suddenly found their soldiers
incapacitated by a stray EMP from a tactical nuke, or if rival corporate
agents lifted combat plans out of some CEO's headwear via cyber-Tempest
equipment. That kind of shielding works both ways, keeping stray EMF in
as well as out.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! | head.

Further Reading

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