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Message no. 1
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Cyberpsychosis (was: Re: [SR2] Gangers and Ware)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 12:59:44 +0100
GRANITE said on 2:37/22 Aug 96...

> Oh Since you bring it up Gurth..Evil Grin..I feel I should comment on
> this one..I remember back when this had only been brought up 30 or 40
> times..And back then I would have to say that you are correct..Of
> course I wouldn't say so back then..At least not until about 20K
> messages had been sent on the subject..Now however, I would have to say
> that CyberTechnology presents a different case..at least on when
> refering to the CyberZombie..This sounds a whole lot like
> CyberPsychosis to me...

But it's different than the cyberpsychosis you get in CP2020 -- there, you
go psychotic because your Empathy stat goes down due to cyber implants,
making you "relate more to machines than to humans" (p.73, CP2020 2nd
edition), before violently ending the miserable lives of people around
you.
Cyberzombies in SR are technically dead, they just don't know it yet.
There's a major difference, if you ask me, between needing cyberware to
keep you alive (after first having it kill you :) and going insane through
its implantation.

> > The only reason cyberpsychosis can be explained with is by saying that the
> > person was already mentally instable (read: insane) before implantation,
> > why else would he/she get all those replacement parts in the first place?
> A person doesn't have to be unstable to experience a major replacement
> of their meat with metal..Afterall, how was that shadowrunner supposed
> to know that guard would actually throw a live grenade at them and drop
> it right in their lap...

Granted, I should have added that I was talking about people who
voluntarily have their arms removed an replaced by metal ones. If you have
a grenade blow in your hand for some reason, or step on a mine, or in some
other way lose a limb, then it's probably not a sign of insanity that you
get it replaced.

> I would have to dissagree..A mild form of it has been discribed as a
> ghost limb..where the person missing a limb [or whatever] feels pain or
> itching or some other sensation in the now missing part...This has been
> well documented in people who have had artificial replacements as well
> as those who elect or are unable to purchase or acquire a
> replacement....
> MMUUhhhhaahhaahhaaahhaahha.....
> Err..Sorry..cough..That just sort of slipped out...;)

Isn't "ghost limb" jut a question of signals being passed up the nerves
that connected the now-missing arm or leg to the brain? If the nerves
give a "cold hand" signal to the brain, the brain will say "Your hand is
cold" even though another part of it knows the entire hand isn't there
anymore.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
No drinking before marriage!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 2
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.com>
Subject: Cyberpsychosis (was: Re: [SR2] Gangers and Ware) -Reply
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 09:12:09 -0500
Gurth wrote:
>Isn't "ghost limb" jut a question of signals being passed up the nerves
that
>connected the now-missing arm or leg to the brain? If the nerves give a "cold
>hand" signal to the brain, the brain will say "Your hand is cold" even
though
>another part of it knows the entire hand isn't there anymore.

No.

Pain and sensation are much more complicated than having a bunch of signal
wires that raise and lower flags.

A phantom limb pain suffererer can have the nerves involved REMOVED, and the
pain is still there. They can have parts of the brain deadened, and the pain can
be still there. This is NOT a simple phenomenon.

10 years ago (when I was in college), this was an ongoing
mystery in neuroscience that was just beinging to crack under our efforts. I've
heard since then that we understand it much better now, but I've been just a
programmer since then and can't tell you what "we" now know about it.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 3
From: rhoded01@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Ahzmandius)
Subject: Re: Cyberpsychosis (was: Re: [SR2] Gangers and Ware)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 18:19:44 -0600 (CST)
Bad Karma anyone?



sorry.



I'll shut up now :)
Message no. 4
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: Re: Cyberpsychosis (was: Re: [SR2] Gangers and Ware)
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 21:27:17 -0700
Gurth wrote:
> But it's different than the cyberpsychosis you get in CP2020 -- there, you
> go psychotic because your Empathy stat goes down due to cyber implants,
> making you "relate more to machines than to humans" (p.73, CP2020 2nd
> edition), before violently ending the miserable lives of people around
> you.-
Ah but this is SR2...
-
> Cyberzombies in SR are technically dead, they just don't know it yet.-
Well technically they are alive..or at least the parts of them that are still
flesh and whatever they are currently using for blood..[frankly I would think
they would have some sort of descendant of Interfuron for blood]..They just
have to be artificially reminded to stay that way... ;)

> There's a major difference, if you ask me, between needing cyberware to
> keep you alive (after first having it kill you :) and going insane through
> its implantation.
> Like I said before it is really a matter if definitions..Kinda like to term
Cyberpunk..If you ask 10 different folks the def of that word you will likely
get 15 different answers..For SR2 the plight of the cyberzombie and his kin
can be likened to CyberPsychosis..Afterall both conditions are caused by an
irresistable apathy..the differance is the victim's reaction..In CP2020 a
ruthless killer, In SR2 the victim looses the will to continue living and
literally ceases to do so...
-
> Granted, I should have added that I was talking about people who
> voluntarily have their arms removed an replaced by metal ones......
> I knew what you were refering to..I just wanted to make the point for those
who might not have read into what you wrote...

-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer
Message no. 5
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Cyberpsychosis (was: Re: [SR2] Gangers and Ware)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 12:13:52 +0100
GRANITE said on 21:27/24 Aug 96...

> > Cyberzombies in SR are technically dead, they just don't know it yet.-
> Well technically they are alive..or at least the parts of them that are still
> flesh and whatever they are currently using for blood..[frankly I would think
> they would have some sort of descendant of Interfuron for blood]..They just
> have to be artificially reminded to stay that way... ;)

IMO there's no real difference between your and my statements, for
practical purposes...

> > Granted, I should have added that I was talking about people who
> > voluntarily have their arms removed an replaced by metal ones......
> I knew what you were refering to..I just wanted to make the point for those
> who might not have read into what you wrote...

I.e. those who haven't seen this discussion before :) Anyway, it looks to
me like we're getting stuck on widely different views on the same subject
again, and experience has learned me that it's often best to drop it at
such a time... I suggest just using the ruling you want to -- to have
cyberpsychosis or not.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I'll watch it from the room inside my room.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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