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Message no. 1
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Cyberpunk explained (Was Re: Codes of personal conduct)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 21:34:08 -0500
On 21 Feb 98 at 11:51, s c rose wrote:

> What does cyberpunk have to do with Shadowrun? This is the second or
> third reference I've seen to it in this thread quite frankly if you
> want to play cyberpunk then by all means do so. IMO the similarities
> are superficial at best. The game environments and/or "Universes"
> are not even close to being the same. The awakened world is
> wonderful place why limit it with comparisons to a tech only gaming
> system. Lacking a better term Magic changes everything and SR is the
> only game to be able to combine tech and magic in an effective
> manner IMO.

Your argument comes from a false supposition. Cyberpunk refers to a
genre, of which Shadowrun is a part. You are comparing it to a
specific game called Cyberpunk. The other's in this thread are
referring to the genre, I believe.

The cyberpunk genre was created most people agree by author William
Gibson. It is a popular genre, embraced quite a bit by anime, and
film. Film's like Blade Runner, Escape from New York, Strange Days,
Johnny Neumonic, and many others have successfully captured different
aspects of the gritty, dark future of the cyberpunk genre.

Shadowrun is a cyberpunk game. Period. Just ask any one at FASA. The
fantasy elements give it a special flair. To some, the fantasy
elements are the be-all and end-all of their campaigns. To others,
the cyberpunk is, with the fantasy thrown in for flavor. And there
and many variations in between.

Play it however you want, but I feel that if you ignore the
cyberpunk roots, you are no longer playing Shadowrun, but a fantasy
bastard child. If that is what you enjoy, more power to you. But it's
not Shadowrun.

--

-----------------------------------------------------------------
- DREKHEAD - |"Let's face it. Sometimes your a
- drekhead@***.net - | pigeon, and sometimes your the
*-GridSec : Enforcer Division-* | statue."
"To Protect and To Serve" | -Unknown
=================================================================
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/6990/index.html
Message no. 2
From: SCROSE <scrose@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberpunk explained (Was Re: Codes of personal conduct)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 03:28:28 -0600
Drekhead wrote:
>
> On 21 Feb 98 at 11:51, s c rose wrote:
>
> > What does cyberpunk have to do with Shadowrun? This is the second or
> > third reference I've seen to it in this thread quite frankly if you
> > want to play cyberpunk then by all means do so. IMO the similarities
> > are superficial at best. The game environments and/or "Universes"
> > are not even close to being the same. The awakened world is
> > wonderful place why limit it with comparisons to a tech only gaming
> > system. Lacking a better term Magic changes everything and SR is the
> > only game to be able to combine tech and magic in an effective
> > manner IMO.
>
> Your argument comes from a false supposition. Cyberpunk refers to a
> genre, of which Shadowrun is a part. You are comparing it to a
> specific game called Cyberpunk. The other's in this thread are
> referring to the genre, I believe.

No it is based on a personal opinion which I'll expand on in just a bit.
I'm not comparing it to a game I'm aware of cyberpunk as a genre. I also
happen to think SR falls outside of that genre. It also does not fall
into any other genre such as fantasy...


> The cyberpunk genre was created most people agree by author William
> Gibson. It is a popular genre, embraced quite a bit by anime, and
> film. Film's like Blade Runner, Escape from New York, Strange Days,
> Johnny Neumonic, and many others have successfully captured different
> aspects of the gritty, dark future of the cyberpunk genre.

I collect anime and/or hentia. I love the genre of cyberpunk however IMO
shadowrun does not fit into this genre the magic is not just a nice
splash. It makes fundamental changes in the world and environment.

> Shadowrun is a cyberpunk game. Period. Just ask any one at FASA. The
> fantasy elements give it a special flair. To some, the fantasy
> elements are the be-all and end-all of their campaigns. To others,
> the cyberpunk is, with the fantasy thrown in for flavor. And there
> and many variations in between.

FASA has created a new genre IMO which is neither fantasy or cyberpunk
but a wonderful mixture of both.
which has been and will continue to be my point.
Message no. 3
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Cyberpunk explained (Was Re: Codes of personal conduct)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:48:15 -0500
On 24 Feb 98 at 3:28, SCROSE wrote:

> No it is based on a personal opinion which I'll expand on in just a
> bit. I'm not comparing it to a game I'm aware of cyberpunk as a
> genre. I also happen to think SR falls outside of that genre. It
> also does not fall into any other genre such as fantasy...

Well, as you say, that is your opinion, and no amount of facts are
going to change your position, so let's just agree to disagree, and
drop this topic.


--

-----------------------------------------------------------------
- DREKHEAD - |"Let's face it. Sometimes your a
- drekhead@***.net - | pigeon, and sometimes your the
*-GridSec - Enforcer Division-* | statue."
"To Protect and To Serve" |-Unknown
=================================================================
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/6990/index.html
Message no. 4
From: SCROSE <scrose@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberpunk explained (Was Re: Codes of personal conduct)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 01:36:44 -0600
Drekhead wrote:
>
> On 24 Feb 98 at 3:28, SCROSE wrote:
>
> > No it is based on a personal opinion which I'll expand on in just a
> > bit. I'm not comparing it to a game I'm aware of cyberpunk as a
> > genre. I also happen to think SR falls outside of that genre. It
> > also does not fall into any other genre such as fantasy...
>
> Well, as you say, that is your opinion, and no amount of facts are
> going to change your position, so let's just agree to disagree, and
> drop this topic.

To this we can agree quite frankly I see very few "facts" that can used
to back any opinion that someone has in this regard. However it seems to
be an opinion held by more than myself that shadowrun really does not
fit into any one genre. The mix of cyberpunk and fantasy that create the
universe of shadowrun into a unique sub genre of that has little to do
with things outside of it. To flatly state that it is one thing and not
another is down right silly. IMO the similarities between shadowrun and
the "parent genre" be it cyberpunk and/or fantasy are superficial at
best...
Message no. 5
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Cyberpunk explained (Was Re: Codes of personal conduct)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:11:35 -0700
At 01:36 26/02/98 -0600, you wrote:

>> Well, as you say, that is your opinion, and no amount of facts are
>> going to change your position, so let's just agree to disagree, and
>> drop this topic.
>
>To this we can agree quite frankly I see very few "facts" that can used
>to back any opinion that someone has in this regard. However it seems to
>be an opinion held by more than myself that shadowrun really does not
>fit into any one genre. The mix of cyberpunk and fantasy that create the
>universe of shadowrun into a unique sub genre of that has little to do
>with things outside of it. To flatly state that it is one thing and not
>another is down right silly. IMO the similarities between shadowrun and
>the "parent genre" be it cyberpunk and/or fantasy are superficial at
>best...

Lesse.. High technology? check. Oppresive megacorps running the world?
check. Wide gap between rich and poor? check. Global computer network with
VR capability? check.

Similarities with Fantasy? Uhh..magic, the metahuman races, and some of the
paranormals.

Looks cyberpunk to me, at least the way I play it. IMnsHO.

-Adam
This topic would probably die faster if I quit posting about it.
-
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ AdamJ@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
The Shadowrun Archive Co-Maintainer: http://www.interware.it/shadowrun
Message no. 6
From: SCROSE <scrose@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberpunk explained (Was Re: Codes of personal conduct)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:21:43 -0600
Adam J wrote:
>
> At 01:36 26/02/98 -0600, you wrote:
>
> >> Well, as you say, that is your opinion, and no amount of facts are
> >> going to change your position, so let's just agree to disagree, and
> >> drop this topic.
> >
> >To this we can agree quite frankly I see very few "facts" that can used
> >to back any opinion that someone has in this regard. However it seems to
> >be an opinion held by more than myself that shadowrun really does not
> >fit into any one genre. The mix of cyberpunk and fantasy that create the
> >universe of shadowrun into a unique sub genre of that has little to do
> >with things outside of it. To flatly state that it is one thing and not
> >another is down right silly. IMO the similarities between shadowrun and
> >the "parent genre" be it cyberpunk and/or fantasy are superficial at
> >best...
>
> Lesse.. High technology? check. Oppresive megacorps running the world?
> check. Wide gap between rich and poor? check. Global computer network with
> VR capability? check.
>
> Similarities with Fantasy? Uhh..magic, the metahuman races, and some of the
> paranormals.

IMO you neglected the influence of myth and legend becoming reality.

> Looks cyberpunk to me, at least the way I play it. IMnsHO.

Which is a valid point and the convese is also true. Most of the
Shadowrun novela are listed as fantasy and some are listed as science
fiction. Being one thing does not invalidate the other and vice versa.

> -Adam
> This topic would probably die faster if I quit posting about it.

IMO this it is a valid topic in some ways. I've seen and been in
Shadowrun games which the fantasy aspects where the major influence. The
role of the megacorps was down played, it was who pulling the strings of
the megacorps that mattered not they existed. Those are tools of power
but a dragon is still greedy and wants to aquire wealth and power. Which
is why this is a valid topic of dicussion how much material from fantasy
and myth should be included and how does this change the universe of
shadowrun. Everyone knows cyberpunk and Fantasy but how and why combine
them is important.

That is part of the beauty of shadowrun it crosses over boundaries and
integrates them into something greater than the sum of the parts. Things
like the Tir nations, the azzies and/or a dragon running for and
becoming president of a major nation. We can step back in time to the
days of Secrets of power trilogy. Magic and things magical make it very
different from 95% the material that is considered to be cyberpunk. I'm
not saying that cyberpunk was not and is not an influence but fantasy
and myth are just as large an influence. It really all depends on
individual interpetions and taste. By down playing any aspect of the
univese of SR it changes the flavor of what it can be IMHO.
Message no. 7
From: Karl Low <kwil@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberpunk explained (Was Re: Codes of personal conduct)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:42:48 -0700
From: SCROSE replying to Adam J.


>> Looks cyberpunk to me, at least the way I play it. IMnsHO.
>
>Which is a valid point and the convese is also true. Most of the
>Shadowrun novela are listed as fantasy and some are listed as science
>fiction. Being one thing does not invalidate the other and vice versa.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I think this is what everyone else was trying to say. Your previous posts said
Shadowrun is not cyberpunk. Shadowrun IS Cyberpunk.. and more.

If you wish to establish a new genre with the combining of magic and
cyberpunk, well and good.. but don't deny its roots.

Oddly enough, I could see this changing of the genre's leading back to the
original, when SF and Fantasy came out of Horror.

Karl
Message no. 8
From: The Vagabond <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberpunk explained (Was Re: Codes of personal conduct)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:00:03 PST
>>> Looks cyberpunk to me, at least the way I play it. IMnsHO.
>>
>>Which is a valid point and the convese is also true. Most of the
>>Shadowrun novela are listed as fantasy and some are listed as science
>>fiction. Being one thing does not invalidate the other and vice versa.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>I think this is what everyone else was trying to say. Your previous
posts said
>Shadowrun is not cyberpunk. Shadowrun IS Cyberpunk.. and more.
[snip rest of post, I agree totally]

Thank you, Karl! SC, you may not like the cyberpunk element in your
game, and you have every right in the world to remove that element- just
like I have every right to remove or downplay the fantasy element(far be
it from me to do so). But, the longer you post and try to convince us
that Shadowrun was never meant to be cyberpunk, and is no way
cyberpunk-oriented, the more silly you make yourself look. I believe
the phrase is "Quit while you're ahead". :)


-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com> <ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
"But if it be a sin to covet honour,
I am the most offending soul alive."
-Shakespeare, King Henry V(Act IV, scene III)


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 9
From: "David R. Lowe" <dlowe@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyberpunk explained (Was Re: Codes of personal conduct)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:48:23 -0800
At 8:11 AM -0700 2/26/98, Adam J wrote:

>-Adam
>This topic would probably die faster if I quit posting about it.

Shame on you Adam! Kill a thread and then post on it. What kind of example
are you setting for the kids? Seriously, this thread has run on too long
and is getting nasty. Can we end it, please?

D.

David R. Lowe (dlowe@****.com)
Photography/Graphic Design


Hey, there's a URL in my sig file now!
Check it out at http://www.lowephoto.com.

-
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PS++ PE Y+ PGP- t 5 X+ R+++$ tv- b++ DI++ D--- G++ e++ h--- r++ y+
-
Message no. 10
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Cyberpunk explained (Was Re: Codes of personal conduct)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:23:31 -0700
David R. Lowe wrote:
/
/ At 8:11 AM -0700 2/26/98, Adam J wrote:
/
/ >-Adam
/ >This topic would probably die faster if I quit posting about it.
/
/ Shame on you Adam! Kill a thread and then post on it. What kind of example
/ are you setting for the kids? Seriously, this thread has run on too long
/ and is getting nasty. Can we end it, please?

I'll make it official.

This thread has broken down into "I'm right and you're wrong"
messages and is going nowhere fast. If you must respond to a
previous post of this thread, please do so privately and not to the
list.

Thank you.

-David
Your friendly neighborhood GridSec Enforcer :)
--
ShadowRN GridSec: Enforcer Division
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

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